Peter Schiff at congressional hearing on JOBS: Absolutely schools the Keynesians!!!

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  • Tue, Sep 27, 2011 - 03:47am

    #11

    Damnthematrix

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    Well, yeah, there is that……

[quote=earthwise]

[quote=Damnthematrix]

When will we ever hear an economist/financial guru acknowledge the fact we have Limits to Growth?  You can argue all you like about wages, taxes, regulations, but nothing will alter the fact Business as Usual is finished…..

Humanity’s greatest shortcoming is its inability to understand the exponential function.

[/quote]

……..but otherwise ya gotta admit he kicked their @$$e$, don’tcha think??

[/quote]

Maybe……  but so what?  All he wants is to deregulate the labor market so he can hire people on the cheap?  He’s already admitting to moving some of his workforce offshore, and frankly, if anything, my estimation of him went DOWN….

  • Tue, Sep 27, 2011 - 04:22am

    #12
    earthwise

    earthwise

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    Do you live in “opposite world”?

[quote=Damnthematrix]

[quote=earthwise]

[quote=Damnthematrix]

When will we ever hear an economist/financial guru acknowledge the fact we have Limits to Growth?  You can argue all you like about wages, taxes, regulations, but nothing will alter the fact Business as Usual is finished…..

Humanity’s greatest shortcoming is its inability to understand the exponential function.

[/quote]

……..but otherwise ya gotta admit he kicked their @$$e$, don’tcha think??

[/quote]

Maybe……  but so what?  All he wants is to deregulate the labor market so he can hire people on the cheap?  He’s already admitting to moving some of his workforce offshore, and frankly, if anything, my estimation of him went DOWN….

[/quote]

 I know that the seasons are the reverse of ours here but do words have opposite meaning there too? Did you even listen to  the piece?  What he said was that he was forced to move his new hiring offshore by regulations in spite of his desire to hire locally.  Deregulating would make local hiring more feasible. Go back and listen again as I did. Did you miss the part where he related how he was fined, yes fined, for hiring too many brokers, brokers here in America, brokers that were justified by the workload that he had? How do you square that with your assertion that he’s trying to offshore jobs?  What choice did he have? He tried to hire locally! The regulations forbade that hiring! And the part where he told how it cost him $500,000 in legal fees (in addition to the fines) to fight these absurd regulations? And that’s why he moved those jobs offshore?  It seems that you are locked into that world view that sees all commerce as exploitation and blind yourself to facts to the contrary.

  • Tue, Sep 27, 2011 - 05:26am

    #13

    rhare

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    Libertarian view from Peter Schiff

[quote=gcruwitme]

I for one have a hard tme beleiving that left to their own moral compass, companies will do what’s right as opposed to what will make them rich….just look at the disparity between workers and CEOs that didn’t exist all too long ago.

[/quote]

It’s not a moral compass that guides a company, it’s profit.  Companies have no moral compass other than that of their management, investors, and customers.  Those 3 determine what is needed to make a profit.   The problem is we are seeing the results of massive manipulation, particularly of the value of money that has caused all kinds of distortions to arise – including the disparity of workers versus management.

If labor, transportation costs (ie. energy), resources, etc were all allowed to be properly valued, I do not believe we would see near the problems.  For instance, your management at a large corporation, and because labor in the US is manipulated higher than it’s value relative to the cost of goods/service being produced (this could be due to minimum wage laws, required benefits, etc) you can outsource your production to China.  However, that only works because transportation costs are artificially low because of the petro-dollar.  In addition you also can borrow money cheap from your banker who gets money for free from the Fed. This allows you to build out the infrastructure oversees that you otherwise might not be able to afford.   

We also see the manipulation show up in government in dramatic ways.  Many of the things the government does would never happen if we had to have direct taxation of the populace versus the hidden tax of borrowing from the future.  If governments had to directly tax the citizens there would be revolts long before government became as large and involved in our lives.

So, keep in mind, you are not seeing free market forces at work, and haven’t for quite a long time.

[quote=Johnny Oxygen]

This notion that all government is bad and that true free markets will cure all ills.

There are winners and losers in capitalism and when you bring globalization into the picture someone, somewhere is going to have to do the heavy lifting and they are not going to be happy about it.

[/quote]

Governments are not all bad and the free market doesn’t cure all ills.  I don’t think most Libertarians will tell you that, but we do believe that what we have today is far from free market and way way too much involvement (manipulation) by government.

[quote=gcruwitme]

CEO vs. average worker pay went from 24:1 in 1965 to 336:1 today

Families used to be able to make it on one income.  Now many are lucky if both working is enough.

We’ve invented a whole uber rich "leach" class that produces nothing and skims off the system.

Trade deficit went from a 1960 surplus of 3.5 billion to a deficit of $690 billion in 2008

We used to save money, now we’re in debt.

Government used to exist for the common good of the population; now it’s a corrupt system that caters to the uber rich.

[/quote]

All of those can be traced to the effect of ever larger manipulation of the value of money.  So if you really want to point a finger – do so at the Federal Reserve, and the government that forces the use of the USD on it’s citizens (legal tender laws, taxation on currency exchanges – particularly to metals).  Do keep in mind however, that it’s the Fed that has allowed the government to grow ever larger – so most politicians will not go after the Fed.

[quote=Damnthematrix]

When will we ever hear an economist/financial guru acknowledge the fact we have Limits to Growth?  You can argue all you like about wages, taxes, regulations, but nothing will alter the fact Business as Usual is finished…..

[/quote]

Very true – it’s one of the areas I disagree with Peter Schiff.  If we didn’t have an energy and resource problem right now I think his economics are right on.  However, without acknowledging the energy situation we will find ourselves in, it means you miss the problem that we probably won’t see growth like the past.

However, I don’t believe that negates the economics – we need sound money and currency, so that we can allocate scarce resources where they are needed/desired most.  However, since we don’t have an accurate measuring stick we will continue to poor money into malinvestments.  

  • Tue, Sep 27, 2011 - 08:12am

    #14

    Poet

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    A Cynical Look At Labor And Capital These Days

I posted a rather cynical look at labor and capital from the point of view of someone who might want to start up a for-profit business in the United States.

While I admire Peter Schiff – he’s predicted the housing bubble crash and the financial crisis, and he’s definitely right on about how more debt won’t solve our consumers’ and governments’ debt "ditch" – I do think he’s got some things wrong about regulations, taxes, and the minimum wage.

https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/cynical-look-labor-and-capital-these-days/62834

Poet

  • Tue, Sep 27, 2011 - 11:30am

    #15

    Damnthematrix

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    earthwise wrote:Did you miss

[quote=earthwise]Did you miss the part where he related how he was fined, yes fined, for hiring too many brokers, brokers here in America, brokers that were justified by the workload that he had? How do you square that with your assertion that he’s trying to offshore jobs?  What choice did he have? He tried to hire locally! The regulations forbade that hiring! And the part where he told how it cost him $500,000 in legal fees (in addition to the fines) to fight these absurd regulations? And that’s why he moved those jobs offshore?  It seems that you are locked into that world view that sees all commerce as exploitation and blind yourself to facts to the contrary.[/quote]

No, I didn’t miss that bit, and yes, I did think it was all a bit weird…….  But we don’t know the details, so it’s hard to comment really.

  • Tue, Sep 27, 2011 - 01:15pm

    #16
    earthwise

    earthwise

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    Damnthematrix

[quote=Damnthematrix]

 

…………… so it’s hard to comment really.

[/quote]

But yet you did comment, and harshly. Why?

  • Tue, Sep 27, 2011 - 02:25pm

    #17

    frobn

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    rhare wrote:…If we didn’t

[quote=rhare]…If we didn’t have an energy and resource problem right now I think his economics are right on.  However, without acknowledging the energy situation we will find ourselves in, it means you miss the problem that we probably won’t see growth like the past.

However, I don’t believe that negates the economics – we need sound money and currency, so that we can allocate scarce resources where they are needed/desired most.  However, since we don’t have an accurate measuring stick we will continue to poor money into malinvestments.  [/quote]

The major problem with all modern economic theories is that they do not recognize the costs of nature’s capital such as energy. Economic theory does just the opposite and encourages faster draw down of limited resources under the assumption there will be always be a substitute. How smart is it to give oil companies a depletion allowance for extraction of non-renewable energy sources? Sound money is needed but money will not be a substitute for non-renewable resources.

  • Tue, Sep 27, 2011 - 03:31pm

    #18

    jturbo68

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    Prisoners Dilemma

[quote=YoungEntrepreneur]

GCRU:

Employer taxes, employee rights, unions, high wages with extensive benefits and gov’t regulations have gotten to the point that it takes an employer ALLOT to really want to employ someone in the US. The exployee must be exceptional with unique high value skills that can not simply be replaced by technology and automation or cheaper, younger and hungrier labor willing to work for harder for less.

The Baby Boomer had it very good and were spoiled. These are also not the 80’s or 90’s anymore.

Something has got to change.

If not, jobs will continue to disappear from the US. I hire people only as independent contractors and bonus them for quality results. Incentives with reasonable base pay work for me and if I want or need someone who is truly exceptional and decide that additional perks, pay increases or benefits are warranted to retaon them long-term and exclusively then I can do so. Being forced to bend over backwards and pay a premium for mediocre talent and effort is not in my cards.

Some salary with incentives and the younger labor is cheaper, full of energy and does what you ask them. The overseas labor often works harder and is hungrier than comparable US labor pool.

The "average" fat, lazy, spoiled, unambitious, mediocre, minimally skilled or not exceptionally educated US worker does not compare favorably.

Heck, I can get more out of well-selected interns who trade their time and labor for training, experience, letter of recs and compete for job offers than what I get from the typical high wage middle aged schlep. 

For most people a job with perhaps lower wages or benefits is better than no job at all. The regulations also need to change and unions have gone wild.

Whether it’s wages, taxes, regulations, compliance or whatever, the cost versus the output of the typical US worker does not make sense, especially in highly competitive markets and contracting general economies. 

If workers don’t like it they can become self-employed or start their own businesses and see how it feels when the shoes is on the other foot.

People are always free to move or do what they have to in order to compete and find their niche.

You’re right, some government oversight and regulation is warranted in select areas and at limited levels but we have gone way past what is desirable and necessary in those terms.

JOHNNY:

Extreme and pure capitalism is survival of the fittest and Social Darwinian. From a societal perpestive, that, upon extremes, can be very dangerous and destructive. However, I do believe most solutions and trends should be dictated by the free market. Big government, communism and socialism have never worked in the long term.

Europe is about to find out why and how western socialism does not work and the US is no longer a republic or purely capitalistic state. It has lost it’s status of Republic and has been gross infected by socialism and Big Government politics.

Gov’t has a role but it should be very limited, not nearly as all-encompassing as what you now see in the US.

Peter is most definitely a staunch Libertarian and hails from the Von Mises Institute/Austrian School of Economics

[/quote]

 

Has anyone here heard of the term Prisoners Dilemma?

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/PrisonersDilemma.html

I see it as one of the major symptoms to pur perpetul race to the bottom.

Essentially, we have created a situation where every person, company, country is pitted against everyone else and is wiped or injured unless they give more ground perpetually to outdo their competition.

Thus an employee in this country faces constand downward pressure on his/her job, a company faces constant pressure to erode working/environmental conditions, and countries face similar pressures to always grow in a never ending race to stay one step ahead in the endless race.

A system like this cannot work.

I see it as inevitable that at some point the workers in such a system would stop buying into the system and would start to opt out as they can.  Companies and countries (as non living entities) really have no choice but to keep going forward as there is always another robotic entity to pick up the ball and drive it.

It is sad to me that most people in this country essentially believe that the solution is to take away more safeguards and make life even more hard to force people back into working for a system that is failing them so badly.  Not that handouts solve the problem either.  Neither solve the root cause of our problem – Perpetual growth.

I see energy failure and environmental failure as a way possible path out of the gordian knot we have created. It wont be pretty.

 

 

 

 

  • Tue, Sep 27, 2011 - 05:45pm

    #19

    rhare

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    Devaluing currency causes lots of problems…

[quote=frobn]

How smart is it to give oil companies a depletion allowance for extraction of non-renewable energy sources? Sound money is needed but money will not be a substitute for non-renewable resources.

[/quote]

Yes – the tax code  is a major source of manipulation – favors some over others.  It’s why it needs to go!  Either tax only consumption or at least vastly simplify the tax code.  While sound money is not a substitute for resources – it does provide us a way to accurately measure the value of those resources and the work to obtain them.

[quote=jturbo68]

Essentially, we have created a situation where every person, company, country is pitted against everyone else and is wiped or injured unless they give more ground perpetually to outdo their competition.

Thus an employee in this country faces constand downward pressure on his/her job, a company faces constant pressure to erode working/environmental conditions, and countries face similar pressures to always grow in a never ending race to stay one step ahead in the endless race.

[/quote]

So very true.  Both Ron Paul and Peter Schiff talk quite a bit about this in relation to sound money.  Chris has commented on it as well, showing that we must all be speculators and take risks because we can’t just save.  

However, I don’t think employees are taking much downward pressure – government has forced more and more conditions on employers to the point that conditions get better and better right to the point that the jobs are eliminated.  But yes, constant requirement for growth from our money system has effects everywhere.

  • Tue, Sep 27, 2011 - 06:01pm

    #20
    JuanGalt

    JuanGalt

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    Love your repsonses Rhare…

Good to know I found a like-minded brother on this forum. Not too many of those on this board.

Funny pic with the dog and sun glasses. Dogs rock!!!

Looking forward to exchanging some thoughts in the near future. Thanks.

JG

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