Native American Wisdom

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  • Tue, Apr 19, 2011 - 03:53pm

    #61

    littleone

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    Heartbreak

AO, I see what you saying, but whether we call it patriarchy or matriarchy… I am fascinated by Russell’s take on things. He is not my guru.

Yet, there is an elephant in the room in a culture or society that makes it acceptable, profitable, and expected for men’s/women’s equal rights and justice, that women/mothers see valor and duty in serving as a warrior or sending their sons and daughters off to war.

@1:07:53  Violence is dreadfully, dreadfully effective that is why they use it. ~Derrick Jensen ENDGAME

 

 

AO, remember you mentioned cat fight?

Women birth new living humans.

War is gruesome for men. How does it feel for a women go kill another women’s creation in war, knowing the labor of love that birth is?

My understanding is…If you will kill what you love, the heart breaks.

Killing or using resources is a matter of survival, we have a predator/prey relationship with the earth/nature.

Our current model puts a person on the same level as resources. Humans are a resource for human consumption and therefore killing is justified.

lyrics:

We can’t both become The same pawn That’s made to fall Oil that tastes like blood Stole the summer scent From me to you

Steal from yourselves It never felt so good And feed from their hands Confused by opposites

JARS – Chevelle

 

So, whether we are talking about the elephant’s tail, or trunk, or feet…it is all the same animal.

listening to JARS

-littleone

13 Rely On Your Own Feet

If you have to go anywhere go on your own feet. It may be trying, but not so much so as the bother of horses and carriages. Every one with a body has two servants, his hands and feet, and they will serve his will exactly. And since the mind knows the fatigue of the body it works it when it is vigorous and allows it to rest when it is tired. The mind uses the body, but not to excess, and when the body fires it is not vexed. And to go on foot and do one’s own work is the best road to strength and health.

    Clothes and food are just the same. Garments woven from wisteria-vines, and bed-clothes of hemp, covering the body with what comes nearest to hand, and sustaining one’s life with the berries and fruits that grow on the hills and plains, that is best. If you do not go into society you need not be ashamed of your appearance, and if your food is scanty it will have the better relish. I do not say these things from envy of rich people, but only from comparison of my early days with the life I live now.

 

~ Kamo no Chomei

  • Wed, Apr 20, 2011 - 12:11am

    #62
    ao

    ao

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    myths

littleone,

With regards to Iroquois society, I don’t think it’s a very good example to hold up.  The level of violence in that society was astounding.  Here is just one example:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/481728

Cannibalism, to me, doesn’t reflect a healthy society. 

  • Wed, Apr 20, 2011 - 04:03pm

    #63

    littleone

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    Stumbling Stones

AO,

I’ll check out the link. I am looking for stumbling stones…

Crime and Punishment

You are the way and the wayfarers.

And when one of you falls down he falls for those behind him, a caution against the stumbling stone.

Ay, and he falls for those ahead of him, who though faster and surer of foot, yet removed not the stumbling stone.

~Khalil Gibran, THE PROPHET(1923)

  

Our current consumer culture is openly cannibalizing for all humans, globally. Sick, huh? What is your point? Do you find any wisdom in this thread? 

I enjoyed learning that a tipi is a very efficient home…weirdly, the Indians saw the poles of the tipi as representing the men’s strength. The covering for the poles creates a womb(representing the comfort and nurturing of the women).

There are 20 different types of clouds, and if known, you can read the weather for up to four days.

Indigenous tribes knew how to stack corn so it wouldn’t mold(I would like a source if someone has one), and dry farm.

The women did not birth another child until her infant reached 5 years old. This way she could be a full-time mother…which was needed because in the first five years the young child is allowed to explore the world without being told NO

 

Russell Means’ main point, IMO, is that men have not learned how to resolve conflict without violence. Violence is dreadfully effective…because it promotes fear. I will also add that one thing men do have a very hard time admitting is: shame. Shame is what makes the ego take a hit.

Shame leads to a heavy burden of guilt, if not addressed.

Women often take on too much shame, due to a weaker ego, to avoid conflict.

Here is a quote from Robert Augustus Masters from his essay, A Man’s Ego sticks Out More:

A man’s ego generally sticks out more than a woman’s.

Both can get in your face, both can go toe-to-toe with whatever offends them, both can take up a lot of room, but in most cases a woman’s ego just does not stick out like a man’s.

A man’s ego is usually more frail, because it is more cut off from depth, and so has to be more self-sustaining. This gives having independence an exaggerated importance.

The fact that a man’s ego usually sticks out more than a woman’s is not bad news. It’s a given. What’s not a given is whether or not we explore and cease identifying with our egoic anatomy. 

http://www.robertmasters.com/ESSAY-pages/mans_ego.htm 

 

and from…Robert Augustus Masters’ essay The Masculine & Feminine Poles of Anger:

At its worst, masculine anger is a blind, steel-encased missile, headed by a poison-filled, indictment-clutching fist; all it wants to do is blast the other into subservience or even oblivion. It is a warhead too dense to hear any recall instructions from saner quarters — there is an enemy that must be obliterated, or at least punished. Such anger is obsessed with penetration, and, even more so, with unloading its bombs, whether coolly or hot-headedly. It has no heart.

And feminine anger, at its worst, is just as blind, being a recklessly unbounded, self-fueling wildfire, rooted in a desire to annihilate the other. Whatever obstructs it must be surrounded and gutted; its flaming pseudopods enloop offending material, then shrink the circle until that undesirable “other” is eaten by fire. 

Such excesses, however, are not peculiarities of a few of us; we all carry them in us, if only in seed form. Their epicenter lies in toxic shame, toxic pride, toxic waste, for which no containers are completely leak-proof. What is needed — and it is far from easy — is a radical conversion. An alchemy that does not reject, but accepts and transmutes, and, yes, loves. … http://www.robertmasters.com/ESSAY-pages/masc_fem_anger.htm

 

In ENDGAME, Derrick Jensen talks of violence flowing down the chain.

Men DO have more upper body strength. Men can misuse their power/strength. Who is at the bottom of this chain…the children. Do you feel people remain healthy under heavy coercion and fear?

 

Women are not immune to war. 

AMERICAN RAPE STATISTICS 

Somewhere in America, a woman is raped every 2 minutes, according to the U.S.

Department of Justice. 

 

Ever heard of war rape?

The private war of women soldiers

By Helen Benedict

Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 06:42 ET

Many female soldiers say they are sexually assaulted by their male comrades and can’t trust the military to protect them. “The knife wasn’t for the Iraqis,” says one woman. “It was for the guys on my own side.”

 

 

also see:

Wednesday October 14, 2009

Daily Show: Rape-Nuts

Al Franken proposes getting rid of the old “it’s OK if you get raped” clause in government contracts, but 30 Republicans object.

video link: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-october-14-2009/rape-nuts

 

Guess what the one of the world’s biggest businesses is?…

Crime

The World’s Biggest Illicit Industries

Nathan Vardi, 06.04.10, 12:02 PM EDT

Page 2 of 2

quote:

Human Trafficking

Interpol says human trafficking and illicit migration is a $28 billion enterprise. This sad business, broadly speaking, can take the form of modern slavery, sexual exploitation, or organ harvesting, destroying the lives of its victims and enriching brutal criminal groups. The victims are often trapped and forced to work as prostitutes or migrant workers. This illegal trade in human beings is one of the fastest growing criminal activities globally, U.N. Special Rapporteur Joy Ngozi Ezeilo said recently.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/06/04/biggest-illegal-businesses-business-crime_2.html

 

Where does all this violence flow?…down.

Removing stumbling stones will help those who are behind…ascend.

-littleone

 

The strongest of all warriors are these two — Time and Patience. ~ LEO TOLSTOY, War and Peace

  • Thu, Apr 21, 2011 - 02:42am

    #64
    ao

    ao

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    just folks

littleone,

Violence isn’t a cultural problem, it’s a human problem.  There IS an answer.  But it’s not found in indigenous cultures.  They had wisdom about some things and were foolish about other things … just like any other culture.  It’s always interesting to me that very often people who espouse some type of mythical superiority of indigenous cultures over contemporary cultures never chose to fully live the indigenous culture way.  Why is that? 

  • Thu, Apr 21, 2011 - 05:45am

    #65

    littleone

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    Did I mention I was looking

Did I mention I was looking for answers?…

I agree it is about seeing what is foolish vs. wise. I am grateful you do not want this info to be misleading.

I also cannot speak for those who do not fully live what they teach. 

Violence does accomlish something…changes in cultural behavior. Cultural problems and violence are human problems. I like how thoroughly Derrick Jensen covers the topic of violence in ENDGAME. 

Violence has become automated…see the Automation thread, more on that later…

-littleone

Megadeth – Ashes In Your Mouth(with lyrics):

Destiny, that crooked schemer, says the dead shall rise again

The answer to your question is “Welcome to tomorrow!”

 

 

 

  • Fri, Apr 22, 2011 - 02:23am

    #66
    ao

    ao

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    littleone wrote:Did I

[quote=littleone]

Did I mention I was looking for answers?…

I agree it is about seeing what is foolish vs. wise. I am grateful you do not want this info to be misleading.

I also cannot speak for those who do not fully live what they teach. 

Violence does accomlish something…changes in cultural behavior. Cultural problems and violence are human problems. I like how thoroughly Derrick Jensen covers the topic of violence in ENDGAME. 

Violence has become automated…see the Automation thread, more on that later…

[/quote]

Did I mention I was providing answers? …

Those who think indigenous cultures were so wonderful should strip down to a loin cloth, flake a rock into a crude knife, walk into the wilderness, and make a go of it.  Most of the indigenous-cultures-are-so-wonderful type would starve to death within a month.  They simply aren’t tough enough or resilient enough to survive.  Survival under those conditions is not easy work.  If you think it is, try it and you’ll change your tune very quickly.  Have you ever tried this survival type of existence?  Very, very few of the people in indigenous cultures will chose the PURE living of those cultures over modern alternatives, not the bastardization which passes for that culture nowadays.

The point is, we don’t need to go backward in time and development … we need to go forward.

Whether violence is automated or not is really irrelevant to indigenous culture wisdom.  If indigenous cultures were so wise, how did they come to allow themselves to be dominated by cultures that were ostensibly not so wise? 

This mindset of the idolization of indigenous cultures as having an idyllic, Utopian existence is pure fantasy.

  • Fri, Apr 22, 2011 - 03:15am

    #67
    MarkM

    MarkM

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    ao wrote:If indigenous

[quote=ao]

If indigenous cultures were so wise, how did they come to allow themselves to be dominated by cultures that were ostensibly not so wise? 

[/quote]

The repeating rifle. Laughing Sorry, I couldn’t help myself. Yes, I know that is a simplistic answer.

To answer your question, why do  we not immerse ourselves in an indigenous lifestyle, I believe many of us don’t want to endure the physical discomfort of them. We want to apply their ideologies to our way of life. I think there is some merit in that, but I see your point. I do believe we are off track with our “modern” society and need some sort of redirection.

I am enjoying the discussion between you and littleone.

  • Fri, Apr 22, 2011 - 11:14am

    #68
    ao

    ao

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    MarkM wrote:[The repeating

[quote=MarkM]

[The repeating rifle. Laughing Sorry, I couldn’t help myself. Yes, I know that is a simplistic answer.

To answer your question, why do  we not immerse ourselves in an indigenous lifestyle, I believe many of us don’t want to endure the physical discomfort of them. We want to apply their ideologies to our way of life. I think there is some merit in that, but I see your point. I do believe we are off track with our “modern” society and need some sort of redirection.

I am enjoying the discussion between you and littleone.

[/quote]

LOL.  Good one! 

Truth is, at Little Big Horn, the Indians had more repeating rifles than the 7th Cavalry so you may have something there. 

I understand and agree with what you say.  We are, indeed, off track with modern society and there definitely are things we can learn from indigenous societies.  But when we start representing them as if there were a perfect, peaceful, idyllic form of life, that’s boulderdash.  I don’t know if littleone has, but I’ve lived in a survival situation with nothing but a knife and as you say, there’s major “physical discomfort” involved.  It’s damn hard work and nothing I would voluntarily choose to do for more than a few weeks.  That’s why even though there are a few Native American and other groups who say they are going back to the old ways, NONE of them truly are.  Look at Russell Means with his modern fiber cowboy hat and modern clothing sitting his well fed butt down on a modern chair on YouTube for example.  Let’s see how well they do without the white man’s steel for another example.  Stone tools aren’t the easiest to make or use.  This blanket demonization of a modern culture is just silly.

Thanks for your comments Mark.

  • Fri, Apr 22, 2011 - 05:46pm

    #69

    littleone

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    Archetypal

AO,

I’m not saying there was never any violence…or that violence will disappear returning to indigenous ways.  In fact, that is one of Derrick Jensen’s main points in ENDGAME…Violence can be a natural resistance to an attack, for example…but an unhealthy aspect of patriarchy is violence flows down, and it is unacceptable for the violence to flow up the chain…to create balance. If you hit a young child, they will hit you back…but if everytime they defend themselves, they get severly punished…they will stop defending themselves to avoid punishment. We only need to look at the economy to see this work…those at the top are rewarded…those at the bottom are punished…no matter what really happened! The fight is not fair, the power is not balanced.

I cannot say I have experienced the full physical discomfort of living directly off the land. I do have a birth defect and live in discomfort and pain daily…and no doubt the extreme elements would make it worse.  I would say that pain does not limit self awareness. Pain reveals the futility of resistance. I also am not saying I enjoy suffering. The soul can sees fire and water different than the body:

The Truth stands before me,

On my left is a blazing fire, and

On my right, a cool flowing stream.

One group of people walk toward the fire, into the fire,

And the other towards the cool flowing waters.

No one knows which is blessed and which is not.

But just as someone enters the fire,

That head bobs up from the water,

And just as a head sinks into the water,

That face appears in the fire.

Those who love the sweet water of pleasure

And make it their devotion are cheated by this reversal.

The deception goes further-

The voice of the fire says:

“I am not fire, I am fountainhead,

Come into me and don’t mind the sparks.” 

~ Rumi 

source: http://www.bemindful.org/poemsb.htm

 

I did read the book THE TRACKER by Tom Brown Jr. :

In his books, Brown states that from the age of seven, he and his childhood friend Rick were trained in tracking and wilderness survival by Rick’s grandfather, a Lipan Apache elder called Stalking Wolf, who had relocated to the Pine Barrens wilderness near Toms River to be closer to Rick’s family.[2] Stalking Wolf later died when Brown was 17 and Rick was killed in a horse riding accident in Europe shortly thereafter.[2]

Tom Brown describes in his books that he spent the next ten years living almost exclusively in different wilderness areas of the United States, working on his skills and using few manufactured tools to survive. After this period, Brown returned to New Jersey and set out to find people who were interested in the abilities he had developed through first-hand experience with nature. …

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brown_(naturalist)

This book does talk about extreme and harsh conditions. As a boy, he is taught and learns to transcend…and how pain can burn into pure presence.

I know this may sound strange but I have some family geneology and family writings…a distant relative wrote that they remember getting their first pair of shoes…and wrote only after getting shoes do they recall feeling cold feet…even walking on ice. I thought that was interesting.

Balanced does not necessarily mean comfortable. Balanced work does not mean that fantasies of power, or ability to misuse power, are gone. …yet, balanced work can eliminate conflict through non-resistance. 

I may need to clarify I do not think all men and women need to, or should, become mothers or fathers. The role of the parents as an authority and example are always going to remain primary as far as cultural development. Children are not fooled by hypocrisy or adulterated love… children are experiencing limits and harsh expectations without being taught real survival skills. I feel the need to learn about the enviornment and how to use resources in a renewable way. Do you think it wise for someone to not know how to survive with only nature to provide?

AO, I think this clarifies each of our perspectives about patriarchy and matriarchy …and where a subtle misunderstanding can distract from the truth…wisdom from Thomas Moore’s CARE OF THE SOUL:

p108

The Archetypal Wife

In a culture in which women are oppressed and all things feminine are undervalued, “wife” is not as honorable as a title as it might be. When this anima image has no place in the phyche of men, then wifehood becomes literal dependency, and the women is given all responsibility for home and children. Men are free of the restraints of home life, but they also suffer a loss, because care of home and family gives back vast amounts of feeling and imagination to the soul. Typically men prefer the adventerous path of business, trade, or career. Of course, the career women also loses anima if she devotes herself to the myth of career building. Both men and women can look down on the image of wife and be glad to be liberated from her inferiority. In this context, the mythological image of Hera reminds us of the honor due the wife. Her mythic figure suggests that “wife” is a profound face of the soul. …

 ~Thomas Moore, Care of the Soul: A Guide for Cultivating Depth and Sacredness in Everyday Life, p108

 

p38

Without soulful fathers, our society is left with mere reason and ideology as guides. Then we suffer collective fatherlessness: not having a clear national direction; giving the spoils of a wealthy economy to few; finding few rare examples of deep morality,

p39

law, and community; not seeking out odyssey because we prefer the solid ground of opinion and ideology. To set out on the sea is to risk security, yet that risky path may be the only way to the father.

Culturally we are also suffering from the breakdown of patriarchy. Feminist thought properly criticizes the oppression of women on the part of long-standing male domination, but that political patriarchy is not the partriarchy of the soul. Parti-archy means absolute, profound, archetypal fatherhood. We need a return of a patriarchy in this deepest sense, because to vacilitate between embracing symptomatic and oppressive fathering on one side and criticizing it on the other gets us nowhere. In that divisiveness we will never find the spirit of fatherhood that we need both as a society and in our individual lives as men and women.

~Thomas Moore, Care of the Soul: A Guide for Cultivating Depth and Sacredness in Everyday Life, p38-39

 

-littleone

listening to Get Some – Chevelle

  • Sat, Apr 23, 2011 - 05:46am

    #70
    ao

    ao

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    live, don’t lament

littleone,

I met and studied with Tom Brown after reading The Tracker 25 years ago and grew up in just about the same woods in NJ doing a lot of the same things he did as a kid so I have some familiarity with the perspective.  He not only talks the talk but he walks the walk.   But a lot of the others are more interested in talking than walking.  I think what people have to do is stop lamenting and start living. 

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