Moore: America Is Not Broke….[…or is it?…]

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  • Tue, Mar 08, 2011 - 10:00pm

    #11
    gregroberts

    gregroberts

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    “What’s going on here? “Not

“What’s going on here? “

Not that hard to figure out.

“This “rebuttal” post is just as emotionally driven as Moore’s speech, chock full of opinion.”

This is just your own emotional opinion

” Most of what you retort is ideologically “in-line” with the “whatever is opposite of what he (Moore) said.”  

Huh?

“Moore just gave a speech to one of the most sustained and largest protests in our country’s history.  The event is significant in that people are at least waking up. “

That they might have to pay some of their own expenses?

 “The solution is to recognize that and shepherd people to prepare for a future of less prosperity. “

So people really are sheep ?

“Bagging on Moore seems too easy.”

It was.

“For the record, a country is not broke until it can’t pay it’s bills.  We may be insolvent to those who understand, but until we fail to sell t-bills to cover gov’t spending, then we’re not broke.  A ponzi scheme can carry-on in plain sight until the flows stop. So whether 400 or 10 people control all the wealth doesn’t matter.  What matters is the trend.  How has the wealth among different demographics grown over the decades?”

So defrauding investors is okay with you?

“If we’re on the path to being broke as a nation, does it make sense that titans of industry have exponentially grown wealth, many times greater than the rest of the people?  If the economy was solid then sure, “

So it’s okay that the titans of industry have exponentially grown wealth, many times greater than the rest of the people when the economy is solid?

.  “But the reality is the eCONomy stinks, has done for a decade, and we’re in the midst of one of the greatest asset heists in history.  It took decades, was done by legal means, “

You don’t mean our govt, do you?

“and was supported by people who have little chance of being wealthy enough to benefit.  That’s a lot of wool. ” 

Back to sheep again

“So your first point about being broke is misguided.  Moore was talking about the wealthy buying power, creating the rules and hoarding the wealth.  So “broke” is a relative term.  Reminds me of CM’s “sound of one-hand clapping” metaphor.  If a lot of wealth exists, but 99% of the people never see any of it, does it really exist?

Yes

” As in CM’s example of bad debts on the Fed balance sheet, yes it does exist, but rules are created to keep it hidden.”

more fraud

“I’m sure you’ve heard the cookie parable by now.  If not… A Billionaire is sitting at a table with a schoolteacher and a Tea Party activist. On the table is a plate with a dozen cookies. The billionaire promptly scoops up 11 of the cookies. He then turns to the tea partier and says, “Watch out for that schoolteacher. He’s in a union, and he wants a piece of your cookie.”

You left out the part where the Tea Party activist asks who’s cookies they were to begin with.

“Also, the “crash they created” is not a currency crisis.  They, in this case, are primarily bankers, which should be obvious.  Housing, derivatives, etc.  Stay tuned because your currency crisis point is not incorrect , but this example is not it.”

Long story short, ever heard of Fannie and Freddie Mac?

“Your last statement is a gem.  Evidently anyone who disagrees with your view is either un-American, not “real American,” or some form of brainwashed.”

Did I say that? Sounds like you’ve been reading  your brainbrother darbikrash’s posts

  “The appropriate statement would mention lack of funds rather than lack of patriotism.   Again, the rebuttal was emotionally driven. “

To you it would be , not me. Since I’m working on income taxes today I am feeling emotional, but the emotion is anger.

 “Moore stood up and spoke to thousands of people at a significant time in American history.”

Stirring up class envy

 ” That at least merits a rebuttal based on facts rather than emotion and Drudge reports, especially on this site where people come for knowledge and as refuge from the ideological noise.”

From your post I don’t think you would know a fact from an emotion and the study of logical fallacies would be a big help in your education.

As long as it’s your ideological noise it’s okay, right?

  • Tue, Mar 08, 2011 - 10:26pm

    #12
    sjdavis

    sjdavis

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    oversimplified

[quote=soulsurfersteph]

[quote=sjdavis]

Moore just gave a speech to one of the most sustained and largest protests in our country’s history.  The event is significant in that people are at least waking up.  The solution is to recognize that and shepherd people to prepare for a future of less prosperity.  Bagging on Moore seems too easy.

[/quote]

Saying this is one of the largest protests in our country’s history is a bit of an overstatement. Also, I’m sure that a lot of those ongoing protesters are professional “protesters” bussed in by the unions from other states. Seriously, that’s how Obama won the caucuses in the 2008 election – they bussed union members and college students from other states to overwhelm the Hillary supporters. These people are organized but not in a fair and equitable way. 

I’m sure there are also a lot of naive college students just there caught up in the hype. Heck, I remember getting caught up in a sit-in at my university over campus security guards carrying guns. I didn’t even know much about the issue – my friends were going and I had no clue what the plan was. Next thing I knew I was doing a sit-in at the administrative building and on the evening news.

Moore speaks to this young idealism and it’s very easy to bash the rich. Let’s talk about those evil Koch brothers for a second. They are apparently big philanthropists too – just read an article about the all the work they do to find a cure for cancer. Do you hear that when Moore is bellowing about the evil rich people?

So it’s perfectly OK to be a filthy rich financier and manipulator of markets and currencies as long as your name is George Soros and you are donating large sums of money to MoveOn. Hypocrisy!

I’m not saying Wall Street isn’t out of control – it is. And a lot of these guys are assholes. But Moore totally oversimplifies and is inciting class warfare with his comments. This is not helping the country. It is dividing it more.

[/quote]

Key word to describe the protest was sustained.  Something like 20 days is a significant protest in America.  But you’re right, it was a little overstated considering the duzzi’s we’ve had in our history.  Saying it’s “naive” college students and “professional protestors” that are carrying things is oversimplifying the protest.  Good debate tactic though.  Maybe the first week the students contributed, but not still.  They’re college students and Madison is one of the best college party towns.  Not going to be there beyond the novelty unless it means something.  

Nobody is saying billionaire’s are inherently bad people.  Everybody has good and bad qualities.

Not sure how Soros made his way into the conversation, but there he is.  Guess it’s to be expected.

Correct on your last point, Wall Street is out of control.  That’s where most people agree.  America is divided, and as soon as people realize the demarcation is Wall Street the more intelligent and effective the debate becomes.  Contrary to your point, Moore did not oversimplify, but accurately simplified this point.  What exactly do you disagree with in this statement?

“…And I can see why. For us to admit that we have let a small group of men abscond with and hoard the bulk of the wealth that runs our economy, would mean that we’d have to accept the humiliating acknowledgment that we have indeed surrendered our precious Democracy to the moneyed elite. Wall Street, the banks and the Fortune 500 now run this Republic — and, until this past month, the rest of us have felt completely helpless, unable to find a way to do anything about it.”

 

  • Tue, Mar 08, 2011 - 10:27pm

    #13
    soulsurfersteph

    soulsurfersteph

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    “Drudge reports”

In reading the rebuttal to the rebuttal, I was struck by this line:

“That at least merits a rebuttal based on facts rather than emotion and Drudge reports, especially on this site where people come for knowledge and as refuge from the ideological noise.”

Perhaps off-topic, but I don’t get why people equate the Drudge Report with an actual newspaper. There are no Drudge “reports.” He simply links out to other content from a variety of sources. Many are actually quite liberal. For example, today, he linked out to Rosanne Barr’s website. She hates Tea Party people. 

He sometimes writes snarky comments against Democrats in his headlines but other than the fact that he has Ann Coulter on his lists of links, I don’t find him to be something only “right wingers” would get benefit from. The reason I go to his website is that he sifts through an amazing number of websites to pull out a lot of interesting stories that you might miss otherwise in your Google News feed.

I would have totally missed this story if it were not for Drudge:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/03/millions-of-fish-likely-died-of-oxygen-depletion-not-pollution-redondo-beach-officials-say.html

There’s nothing right or left about that! It’s dead fish! (If anything, it’s the apocalypse!)

Of course, his latest headline is: WELFARE NATION ONE-THIRD OF ALL WAGES ARE HANDOUTS But that’s not actually linked to a right-wing source. It’s linked to CNBC.

At any rate…insulting someone because they base their arguments on “emotional” “Drudge Reports” kind of shows a tremendous amount of ignorance about what’s actually on the Drudge website. And certainly we can come up with better forms of dialogue here than these petty “right vs. left” insults?

  • Tue, Mar 08, 2011 - 10:32pm

    #14
    gregroberts

    gregroberts

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    I think the point MMoore is

I think the point MMoore is trying to make is America wouldn’t be broke if the 400 members of the uber elite paid their fair share of taxes. 

The U.S is supposedly a democratic republic. Isn’t it?

http://www.williampmeyers.org/republic.h

The govt CAN create an outstanding educational system. Not that it is, but it sure can. Govt funded or subsidized charter schools seem to be the best bet for success in that area.

“MMoore-“That then grows a new generation of inventers, entrepreneurs, artists, scientists and thinkers who come up with the next great idea for the planet. “

G Roberts “These types of people are enabled by being free not public schools.”

Really? Education has nothing to do with skill, creativity accomplishment?”

Never said that, just not public schools.

” I feel compelled to practice neurosurgery but have been unsuccessful, thus far. “

So did Jeffery Dauhmer

It’s good to know that it has nothing to do with a lack of training. I simply struggle under the yolk of an oppressive govt. waiting for the day govt gets off my back. Then I’ll run with surgical scissors!

Do you really believe that I think training and experience are not important? I think people prosper when they are free, I think all schools should be private because when you pay for something directly you tend to take a greater interest in the results. When people think education is free, well, you get what you pay for.

Anybody who advocates universal health care can do simple math. Percent of GDP for Canadian health care, is 7%–and everyone’s covered. For the U.S, it’s 15% and expected through Obamination-care to trend up to 20 and then upwards to 25%, within a decade. But darn, it’s all about the freedom to get sick and die, or lose your house and savings in order to pay for hospitalization. Freedom and choices. It’s what makes America great!

So the usual statist solution is to get out the gun and force people to do their bidding. I think that last paragraph is what’s known as a package deal, what caused it to be the way it is? Could it be govt interference in the medical system, funny, Lasik is getting less expensive with time, oh wait the govt stays mostly out of that.

  • Tue, Mar 08, 2011 - 10:40pm

    #15
    soulsurfersteph

    soulsurfersteph

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    filthy rich?

[quote=sjdavis]

Key word to describe the protest was sustained.  Something like 20 days is a significant protest in America.  But you’re right, it was a little overstated considering the duzzi’s we’ve had in our history.  Saying it’s “naive” college students and “professional protestors” that are carrying things is oversimplifying the protest.  Good debate tactic though.  Maybe the first week the students contributed, but not still.  They’re college students and Madison is one of the best college party towns.  Not going to be there beyond the novelty unless it means something.  

[/quote]

Of course it means something if it’s in the national news and it’s a “hip” topic to be riled up about. Doesn’t mean the kids are fully informed on the issue. And like I said, the unions are most likely bussing people in, probably in shifts, to keep this thing going. They have a lot of money at stake. During the election, they paid homeless people to show up at certain events. A homeless person is more than happy to go on a bus ride for free food and some extra cash.

I would not even know these things had I not been a die-hard Hillary supporter. So don’t make me out to be some right-winger. But we saw the election stolen by these tactics and those of us who were really involved know what happened in 2008 and I’m sure these same tactics are being used now.

[quote=sjdavis]

Nobody is saying billionaire’s are inherently bad people.  Everybody has good and bad qualities.

Not sure how Soros made his way into the conversation, but there he is.  Guess it’s to be expected.

[/quote]

Because it’s extremely hypocritical of the left to demonize rich people and particularly any successful business person (or people) who donates to the Tea Party, while ignoring the fact that Soros has been funding a huge number of progressive causes as well as media organizations. In fact, I had been a member of MoveOn until Soros took it over. I didn’t even know who he was or what was happening, but I saw how suddenly the site did this fake poll that overnight had them endorsing Obama early on in the election. Members weren’t given enough notice to vote on the poll. Hillary people were upset. All I knew is, MoveOn, which had been grassroots, had suddenly been hijacked by something. And if you think Soros doesn’t have financial interest in what he pushes via his progressive outreach…ask yourself why Obama would give $2 billion for off-shore drilling to a Brazilian oil company Soros has shares in?

[quote=sjdavis]

Correct on your last point, Wall Street is out of control.  That’s where most people agree.  America is divided, and as soon as people realize the demarcation is Wall Street the more intelligent and effective the debate becomes.  Contrary to your point, Moore did not oversimplify, but accurately simplified this point.  What exactly do you disagree with in this statement?

[/quote]

Statements like Moore’s not only create animosity towards the “filthy rich” but also anyone who owns or runs a business, including small to medium business owners. I am a small business owner. People close to me are small business owners. More taxes will choke us. Moore thinks our problems will be solved by “taxing the rich.” I don’t agree with that.

[quote=sjdavis]

“…And I can see why. For us to admit that we have let a small group of men abscond with and hoard the bulk of the wealth that runs our economy, would mean that we’d have to accept the humiliating acknowledgment that we have indeed surrendered our precious Democracy to the moneyed elite. Wall Street, the banks and the Fortune 500 now run this Republic — and, until this past month, the rest of us have felt completely helpless, unable to find a way to do anything about it.”

[/quote]

Except Moore is completely blind to how the people running the unions are also skimming off the top and many are in cahoots with those who keep the corporate Democratic party in power – the same Democratic party that pushed through Barack Obama through caucus fraud generated by those same union organizers – the same Barack Obama who has filled his economic advisory team with Goldman Sachs guys – the same Barack Obama who refuses to prosecute the mortgage and banking fraud, or get us out of Afghanistan, or overturn the Patriot Act.

Raising taxes? Gimme a break. Those who can hire the right accountants won’t be affected. We need the fraud prosecuted. But we also need to acknowledge that we can’t afford to give infinite entitlements on an exponential scale. (Did you even watch the Crash Course?) Calling for taxing the rich is really calling for taxing small and medium sized businesses while the foxes run the henhouse.

In other words, Michael Moore is a complete and utter fool, playing into the very hands of the people he says he’s fighting against.

 

  • Tue, Mar 08, 2011 - 11:04pm

    #16
    sjdavis

    sjdavis

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    Argument difficult to follow, beliefs are not

Don’t think I brought any ideology to the table, unintentional if I did.  The Crash Course makes effective distinction between facts, opinions and beliefs.  I’m simply pointing out the latter.

Some points…

Yes, people, relatively speaking, are sheep.  Surely just about all agree.

Defrauding investors is not ok.  Money flow and regulatory oversight allows the gig to keep going.

Yes, I do mean our gov’t.  The one bought by the titans of industry and moneyed elite, which is now beginning to collect dividends.

You proved my argument with your answer here:

“So your first point about being broke is misguided.  Moore was talking about the wealthy buying power, creating the rules and hoarding the wealth.  So “broke” is a relative term.  Reminds me of CM’s “sound of one-hand clapping” metaphor.  If a lot of wealth exists, but 99% of the people never see any of it, does it really exist? “

Yes

From your original rebuttal,

So 400 people out of 300 million have most of the wealth, sounds kind of broke to me.

Which one is it?  Does the wealth exist as you say it does in the one-hand clapping example, or are we broke as you say in the original rebuttal to Michael Moore?

Of course I’ve heard of Fannie and Freddie.  How do they support your “currency crisis” is the “crash they started” argument?  Again, it’s just reaching into the well of idealogical points.  F&F are a big problem, but don’t support the argument and can only be seen as pushing beliefs in this context.

You’re right about the last sentence.  You never said un-American and such, just that those to disagree don’t like our Constitution or support freedom.

Your honesty is appreciated relative to the emotion being anger while doing taxes.

No personal attacks required.  Don’t know how to take being told I don’t know the difference between a fact an an emotion?  What I do know is it’s a statement that does not require further thought.

  • Tue, Mar 08, 2011 - 11:17pm

    #17
    sjdavis

    sjdavis

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    Drudge reply

[quote=soulsurfersteph]

…Perhaps off-topic, but I don’t get why people equate the Drudge Report with an actual newspaper. There are no Drudge “reports.” He simply links out to other content from a variety of sources. Many are actually quite liberal. For example, today, he linked out to Rosanne Barr’s website. She hates Tea Party people. 

At any rate…insulting someone because they base their arguments on “emotional” “Drudge Reports” kind of shows a tremendous amount of ignorance about what’s actually on the Drudge website. And certainly we can come up with better forms of dialogue here than these petty “right vs. left” insults?

[/quote]

Good point, perhaps it’s branding, just like tissues are Kleenex even when they’re not Kleenex.  Drudge has become synonymous with a certain type of messaging, such as the headline liberties you mentioned.

Disagree that the discussion was right vs. left to begin with.  It was simply a “take the right vs. left ideology elsewhere.”  Pointing out where a post is based on a belief does not mean you disagree with the ideology.  My belief is that beliefs can start to obscure facts.

CM.com is such a treasure of knowledge and like minded purpose.  The purpose is not to score political points, but to help each other move in a sustainable, resilient direction, while understanding that the ruling class will “get it” later rather than sooner.

  • Tue, Mar 08, 2011 - 11:38pm

    #18
    sjdavis

    sjdavis

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    Taming the budget

[quote=gregroberts]

I think the point MMoore is trying to make is America wouldn’t be broke if the 400 members of the uber elite paid their fair share of taxes. [/quote]

Think you’re partly right.  I think he means first that the 400 are puppet masters of the economy… shipping jobs overseas and such.  Second, he probably thinks increasing their taxes would solve America’s balance sheet crisis.  That would be false, or partly true.  At best, it’s only one part of fixing that mess, which needs to include cuts in all three forms of budget – discretionary, non-discretionay, and entitlements.  Raising taxes on the 400 would help more in the short term, but sustainability is an entirely different topic.

[quote=gregroberts]The govt CAN create an outstanding educational system. Not that it is, but it sure can. Govt funded or subsidized charter schools seem to be the best bet for success in that area.[/quote]

Education needs to improve and charter schools are effective.  It’s a big ship that takes time, so there may be new ideas to improve education in the meantime.  And it may not be a one-size fits all.  [sarcasm] Who knows maybe that idea will come from a public school educated mind. [/sarcasm]

  • Wed, Mar 09, 2011 - 01:09am

    #19
    green_achers

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    Moore is very frustrating to

Moore is very frustrating to me.  On the one hand, he’s a very bright guy, a talented filmmaker, and always raises a lot of valid points.  His take on who is gaming this system for their benefit and to the detriment of the rest of us is spot on, and needs to be heard.  And his take on the political class that protects those is also fundamentally correct.

In addition, it’s always entertaining to watch the conservatives knee-jerk reaction to him.

On the other hand, his advocacy always veers off into predictable left-wing territory that I’m pretty sure isn’t any better than what he’s criticizing.

I guess I’m glad he’s out there saying what he’s saying, because there really isn’t anyone else of his stature raising those points.  The media opinion landscape in this country covers a spectrum from bland social-liberal corporate apologists to psychotic right-wing demagogues and fundamentalist neanderthals.  There sure isn’t anyone else out there who gives a rodent’s gluteus about the working class.  But I would have a lot more respect for him if he recognized a few gray areas and didn’t retreat into emotionalism so much.

  • Wed, Mar 09, 2011 - 01:22am

    #20
    green_achers

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    Potato, potahto

Oh, and the whole democracy vs republic thing really comes off as very childish and boring.  Most people in this country, pretty much from the begining, have used the terms interchangably.  No, we are obviously not a pure democracy.  We are a republic, but that term is too broad to really describe our system.  Plato coined the term, and what he had in mind was rule by “philosopher kings.”  So the word republic can refer to any governmental system in which people are represented by others.  Our system is technically a constitutional democratic republic.  That means we are represented by representatives that we democratically elect, all subject to a constitution.  (It’s actually not quite that simple, either, but close enough for the internet.)  So, for all practical purposes, either word works.

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