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Moore: America Is Not Broke….[…or is it?…]

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  • Mon, Mar 07, 2011 - 03:05am

    #1

    mainebob

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    Posts: 68

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    Moore: America Is Not Broke….[…or is it?…]

Michael Moore, published a rousing speech yesterday in Wisconsin (March 5th)

“America is Not Broke”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-moore/america-is-not-broke_b_832006.html

It is a great rabble rousing speech….   America is not broke….[wealth] has been transferred”
in the greatest heist in history to the banks and portfolios of the uber rich….

And yet while this is true,   from the lens that CM might use,   America is indeed broke
3E wise.

So how does one reconcile this apparent heist…. Does it even make sense to
support this movement?  Michael concludes with this:

America ain’t broke! The only thing that’s broke
is the moral compass of the rulers. And we aim to
fix that compass and steer the ship ourselves from
now on. Never forget, as long as that Constitution
of ours still stands, it’s one person, one vote,
and it’s the thing the rich hate most about
America — because even though they seem to hold
all the money and all the cards, they begrudgingly
know this one unshakeable basic fact: There are
more of us than there are of them!

Madison, do not retreat. We are with you. We will
win together.

 

Looking forward for more clarity on this from the great minds here at CM.
Thanks!

-Bob O

<!–break–>

  • Mon, Mar 07, 2011 - 07:29am

    #2
    soulsurfersteph

    soulsurfersteph

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    I’ll bite

I was really disappointed by this. I have for many years been a fan of Michael Moore. In fact, I went to see him speak 20 years ago when I was in college, after he had done “Roger and Me.”

I think his heart is in the right place but he’s incredibly naive, and pretty clueless about our real fiscal problems. He’s also still caught up in the false left vs. right paradigm. That’s my take.

  • Tue, Mar 08, 2011 - 03:10am

    #3

    dshields

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 25 2009

    Posts: 385

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    Poor Man…

Poor man.  It must be just awful to be Moore.  I guess he has not noticed that America is in serious financial trouble.  I suppose he does not know that 45 cents of every dollar the fed gov spends is borrowed.  I suppose he does not realize that states can not print money and their revenue has been going down while costs have been going up.  I suppose he believes gov employees are a privileged class that gets to escape the nation wide (world wide) reduction in standard of living that is going on by using the taxing authority of the government to forcibly extract more and more of our wages to pay them benefits better than basically anyone in the private sector gets.  Remember, only the private sector produces wealth, the public sector does not.  Na, he is not a poor man.  He is an idiot.  It is people like him that have promoted out of control spending and in many ways put us in the situation we are in now.  I bet he thinks taxes should be raised and energy prices are too low and do not build any nuc plants and don’t drill or mine or generate anything America needs to be successful.  Everything is just free, the governmenrt will pay for it all.  Just get whatever you need from the government.  Don’t feel like working so you can’t pay your rent, get section 8.  Single girl with no husband (in jail for dealing or stealing?), education, or job, just have a bunch of kids.  Get a pile of money from the Obama stash.

I have no mercy for people like Moore.  Rich ignorant big mouth socialists.  I bet every single person who normally checks out this site has a far more in depth knowledge of the problems we face than Moore.  We may not all agree on the causes exactly but we seem to agree on the problems.  Moore does not even know what the problems are much less possible solutions.  For him it just comes down to the government is rich so just get it from the government.  I do not really pay much attention to Moore but I have seen quotes over the years that strongly indicate where his head is at.  There are people who frequent this site that have opposite political views to my own but I have much greater respect for them than I do for Moore.  They are able to make strong arguments to support their views.  I have never heard Moore do that.

 

 

  • Tue, Mar 08, 2011 - 05:14am

    #4
    hucklejohn

    hucklejohn

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    I think you put your finger

I think you put your finger on it, dshields.  Very well written.  There will always be people that appeal to the lowest common denominator, the folks that think if something comes from the government it’s free.  In my state of California Governor Brown wants the voters to approve an extension of taxes.  I have thought this must be insane, that the voters would never approve, especially given the vote against higher taxes just two years ago. But on second thought if Governor Brown can make his appeal to the the half of the population that doesn’t pay taxes as well as the government workers he may get his majority.     

  • Tue, Mar 08, 2011 - 01:04pm

    #5
    Useyerloaf

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    Sounds like you didn’t even

Sounds like you didn’t even read the speech, it’s not about right vs left, it’s about taxation and government being controlled by financial elite.

  • Tue, Mar 08, 2011 - 04:23pm

    #6
    gregroberts

    gregroberts

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    “America is not broke.”So

“America is not broke.”

So 400 people out of 300 million have most of the wealth, sounds kind of broke to me.

“And I can see why. For us to admit that we have let a small group of men abscond with and hoard the bulk of the wealth that runs our economy, would mean that we’d have to accept the humiliating acknowledgment that we have indeed surrendered our precious Democracy to the moneyed elite. Wall Street, the banks and the Fortune 500 now run this Republic — and, until this past month, the rest of us have felt completely helpless, unable to find a way to do anything about it.”

Make up your mind, is the US a Republic or a Democracy, 51% of the people want to know.

“I have nothing more than a high school degree. But back when I was in school, every student had to take one semester of economics in order to graduate. And here’s what I learned: Money doesn’t grow on trees.

True, but it’s now made out of rag.

” It grows when we make things. It grows when we have good jobs with good wages that we use to buy the things we need and thus create more jobs.”

He’s mixing money with wealth, wealth is created by taking raw materials and turning them into something that we value, tree’s into lumber, then houses, then furniture, iron ore into iron and steel, then machinery, bauxite into aluminum, then airplanes, money is a tool of exchange. Which would you rather have if you were alone on an island, money, or shelter, food, or clothing, etc?

 “It grows when we provide an outstanding educational system”

There’s nothing in the constitution about public schools and saying that the govt can create an outstanding educational system is an oxymoron.

 “that then grows a new generation of inventers, entrepreneurs, artists, scientists and thinkers who come up with the next great idea for the planet. “

These types of people are enabled by being free not public schools.

“And that new idea creates new jobs and that creates revenue for the state. But if those who have the most money don’t pay their fair share of taxes .”

 How much is your “fair share” of your own property.

“the state can’t function.”

There’s a start!

 “The schools can’t produce the best and the brightest who will go on to create those jobs. If the wealthy get to keep most of their money, we have seen what they will do with it: recklessly gamble it on crazy Wall Street schemes and crash our economy.

It’s none of anyone’s business what people do with their own money

“The crash they created cost us millions of jobs.”

Who created? We’re having a currency crisis, who controls the currency?

  ‘That too caused a reduction in revenue. And the population ended up suffering because they reduced their taxes, reduced our jobs and took wealth out of the system, removing it from circulation.”

He’s talking about parasitical govt jobs here and mixing up money and wealth again.

“So they have bought and paid for hundreds of politicians across the country to do their bidding for them”

So is he saying that without the govt this wouldn’t have happened?

Then a bunch of rabble rousing that made me laugh that anyone would buy it, taking the poor pilots sleep away, those meanies.

“The only thing that’s broke is the moral compass of the rulers.

Hey, we have agreement here.

‘And we aim to fix that compass and steer the ship ourselves from now on. Never forget, as long as that Constitution of ours still stands, it’s one person, one vote, and it’s the thing the rich hate most about America — because even though they seem to hold all the money and all the cards, they begrudgingly know this one unshakeable basic fact: There are more of us than there are of them!’

Michael Moore and GW both believe the constitution is “just a goddamn piece of paper”, the only reason he’s mentioning it is to grab some of the more ignorant tea partiers into his rabble.

I read the whole article and like any propaganda there is some truth thrown in to snare the unwary, look it up, anyone advocating universal healthcare for all Americans does not believe in individual rights, the constitution, or freedom.

 

  • Tue, Mar 08, 2011 - 04:51pm

    #7
    earthwise

    earthwise

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    America is broke and so is Moore’s logic

[quote=gregroberts]

“America is not broke.”

So 400 people out of 300 million have most of the wealth, sounds kind of broke to me.

“And I can see why. For us to admit that we have let a small group of men abscond with and hoard the bulk of the wealth that runs our economy, would mean that we’d have to accept the humiliating acknowledgment that we have indeed surrendered our precious Democracy to the moneyed elite. Wall Street, the banks and the Fortune 500 now run this Republic — and, until this past month, the rest of us have felt completely helpless, unable to find a way to do anything about it.”

Make up your mind, is the US a Republic or a Democracy, 51% of the people want to know.

“I have nothing more than a high school degree. But back when I was in school, every student had to take one semester of economics in order to graduate. And here’s what I learned: Money doesn’t grow on trees.

True, but it’s now made out of rag.

” It grows when we make things. It grows when we have good jobs with good wages that we use to buy the things we need and thus create more jobs.”

He’s mixing money with wealth, wealth is created by taking raw materials and turning them into something that we value, tree’s into lumber, then houses, then furniture, iron ore into iron and steel, then machinery, bauxite into aluminum, then airplanes, money is a tool of exchange. Which would you rather have if you were alone on an island, money, or shelter, food, or clothing, etc?

 “It grows when we provide an outstanding educational system”

There’s nothing in the constitution about public schools and saying that the govt can create an outstanding educational system is an oxymoron.

 “that then grows a new generation of inventers, entrepreneurs, artists, scientists and thinkers who come up with the next great idea for the planet. “

These types of people are enabled by being free not public schools.

“And that new idea creates new jobs and that creates revenue for the state. But if those who have the most money don’t pay their fair share of taxes .”

 How much is your “fair share” of your own property.

“the state can’t function.”

There’s a start!

 “The schools can’t produce the best and the brightest who will go on to create those jobs. If the wealthy get to keep most of their money, we have seen what they will do with it: recklessly gamble it on crazy Wall Street schemes and crash our economy.

It’s none of anyone’s business what people do with their own money

“The crash they created cost us millions of jobs.”

Who created? We’re having a currency crisis, who controls the currency?

  ‘That too caused a reduction in revenue. And the population ended up suffering because they reduced their taxes, reduced our jobs and took wealth out of the system, removing it from circulation.”

He’s talking about parasitical govt jobs here and mixing up money and wealth again.

“So they have bought and paid for hundreds of politicians across the country to do their bidding for them”

So is he saying that without the govt this wouldn’t have happened?

Then a bunch of rabble rousing that made me laugh that anyone would buy it, taking the poor pilots sleep away, those meanies.

“The only thing that’s broke is the moral compass of the rulers.

Hey, we have agreement here.

‘And we aim to fix that compass and steer the ship ourselves from now on. Never forget, as long as that Constitution of ours still stands, it’s one person, one vote, and it’s the thing the rich hate most about America — because even though they seem to hold all the money and all the cards, they begrudgingly know this one unshakeable basic fact: There are more of us than there are of them!’

Michael Moore and GW both believe the constitution is “just a goddamn piece of paper”, the only reason he’s mentioning it is to grab some of the more ignorant tea partiers into his rabble.

I read the whole article and like any propaganda there is some truth thrown in to snare the unwary, look it up, anyone advocating universal healthcare for all Americans does not believe in individual rights, the constitution, or freedom.

 

[/quote]

+1. 

Great rebuttal, but then again, a buffoon like Moore makes an easy target. Still, a brilliant and funny post! Thanks Greg.

  • Tue, Mar 08, 2011 - 07:56pm

    #8
    sjdavis

    sjdavis

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    Rebuttal to Moore is a joke

What’s going on here?  This “rebuttal” post is just as emotionally driven as Moore’s speech, chock full of opinion.  Most of what you retort is ideologically “in-line” with the “whatever is opposite of what he (Moore) said.”  

Moore just gave a speech to one of the most sustained and largest protests in our country’s history.  The event is significant in that people are at least waking up.  The solution is to recognize that and shepherd people to prepare for a future of less prosperity.  Bagging on Moore seems too easy.

For the record, a country is not broke until it can’t pay it’s bills.  We may be insolvent to those who understand, but until we fail to sell t-bills to cover gov’t spending, then we’re not broke.  A ponzi scheme can carry-on in plain sight until the flows stop. So whether 400 or 10 people control all the wealth doesn’t matter.  What matters is the trend.  How has the wealth among different demographics grown over the decades?

If we’re on the path to being broke as a nation, does it make sense that titans of industry have exponentially grown wealth, many times greater than the rest of the people?  If the economy was solid then sure, they should be handsomely rewarded for that success.  But the reality is the eCONomy stinks, has done for a decade, and we’re in the midst of one of the greatest asset heists in history.  It took decades, was done by legal means, and was supported by people who have little chance of being wealthy enough to benefit.  That’s a lot of wool.  So your first point about being broke is misguided.  Moore was talking about the wealthy buying power, creating the rules and hoarding the wealth.  So “broke” is a relative term.  Reminds me of CM’s “sound of one-hand clapping” metaphor.  If a lot of wealth exists, but 99% of the people never see any of it, does it really exist?  As in CM’s example of bad debts on the Fed balance sheet, yes it does exist, but rules are created to keep it hidden.

I’m sure you’ve heard the cookie parable by now.  If not… A Billionaire is sitting at a table with a schoolteacher and a Tea Party activist. On the table is a plate with a dozen cookies. The billionaire promptly scoops up 11 of the cookies. He then turns to the tea partier and says, “Watch out for that schoolteacher. He’s in a union, and he wants a piece of your cookie.”

Also, the “crash they created” is not a currency crisis.  They, in this case, are primarily bankers, which should be obvious.  Housing, derivatives, etc.  Stay tuned because your currency crisis point is not incorrect , but this example is not it.

Your last statement is a gem.  Evidently anyone who disagrees with your view is either un-American, not “real American,” or some form of brainwashed.  The appropriate statement would mention lack of funds rather than lack of patriotism.   Again, the rebuttal was emotionally driven.  Moore stood up and spoke to thousands of people at a significant time in American history.  That at least merits a rebuttal based on facts rather than emotion and Drudge reports, especially on this site where people come for knowledge and as refuge from the ideological noise.

  • Tue, Mar 08, 2011 - 09:09pm

    #9
    soulsurfersteph

    soulsurfersteph

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    overstatement

[quote=sjdavis]

Moore just gave a speech to one of the most sustained and largest protests in our country’s history.  The event is significant in that people are at least waking up.  The solution is to recognize that and shepherd people to prepare for a future of less prosperity.  Bagging on Moore seems too easy.

[/quote]

Saying this is one of the largest protests in our country’s history is a bit of an overstatement. Also, I’m sure that a lot of those ongoing protesters are professional “protesters” bussed in by the unions from other states. Seriously, that’s how Obama won the caucuses in the 2008 election – they bussed union members and college students from other states to overwhelm the Hillary supporters. These people are organized but not in a fair and equitable way. 

I’m sure there are also a lot of naive college students just there caught up in the hype. Heck, I remember getting caught up in a sit-in at my university over campus security guards carrying guns. I didn’t even know much about the issue – my friends were going and I had no clue what the plan was. Next thing I knew I was doing a sit-in at the administrative building and on the evening news.

Moore speaks to this young idealism and it’s very easy to bash the rich. Let’s talk about those evil Koch brothers for a second. They are apparently big philanthropists too – just read an article about the all the work they do to find a cure for cancer. Do you hear that when Moore is bellowing about the evil rich people?

So it’s perfectly OK to be a filthy rich financier and manipulator of markets and currencies as long as your name is George Soros and you are donating large sums of money to MoveOn. Hypocrisy!

I’m not saying Wall Street isn’t out of control – it is. And a lot of these guys are assholes. But Moore totally oversimplifies and is inciting class warfare with his comments. This is not helping the country. It is dividing it more.

  • Tue, Mar 08, 2011 - 09:34pm

    #10
    agitating prop

    agitating prop

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    Running with surgical scissors

[quote=gregroberts]

“America is not broke.”

So 400 people out of 300 million have most of the wealth, sounds kind of broke to me.

“And I can see why. For us to admit that we have let a small group of men abscond with and hoard the bulk of the wealth that runs our economy, would mean that we’d have to accept the humiliating acknowledgment that we have indeed surrendered our precious Democracy to the moneyed elite. Wall Street, the banks and the Fortune 500 now run this Republic — and, until this past month, the rest of us have felt completely helpless, unable to find a way to do anything about it.”

Make up your mind, is the US a Republic or a Democracy, 51% of the people want to know.

“I have nothing more than a high school degree. But back when I was in school, every student had to take one semester of economics in order to graduate. And here’s what I learned: Money doesn’t grow on trees.

True, but it’s now made out of rag.

” It grows when we make things. It grows when we have good jobs with good wages that we use to buy the things we need and thus create more jobs.”

He’s mixing money with wealth, wealth is created by taking raw materials and turning them into something that we value, tree’s into lumber, then houses, then furniture, iron ore into iron and steel, then machinery, bauxite into aluminum, then airplanes, money is a tool of exchange. Which would you rather have if you were alone on an island, money, or shelter, food, or clothing, etc?

 “It grows when we provide an outstanding educational system”

There’s nothing in the constitution about public schools and saying that the govt can create an outstanding educational system is an oxymoron.

 “that then grows a new generation of inventers, entrepreneurs, artists, scientists and thinkers who come up with the next great idea for the planet. “

These types of people are enabled by being free not public schools.

“And that new idea creates new jobs and that creates revenue for the state. But if those who have the most money don’t pay their fair share of taxes .”

 How much is your “fair share” of your own property.

“the state can’t function.”

There’s a start!

 “The schools can’t produce the best and the brightest who will go on to create those jobs. If the wealthy get to keep most of their money, we have seen what they will do with it: recklessly gamble it on crazy Wall Street schemes and crash our economy.

It’s none of anyone’s business what people do with their own money

“The crash they created cost us millions of jobs.”

Who created? We’re having a currency crisis, who controls the currency?

  ‘That too caused a reduction in revenue. And the population ended up suffering because they reduced their taxes, reduced our jobs and took wealth out of the system, removing it from circulation.”

He’s talking about parasitical govt jobs here and mixing up money and wealth again.

“So they have bought and paid for hundreds of politicians across the country to do their bidding for them”

So is he saying that without the govt this wouldn’t have happened?

Then a bunch of rabble rousing that made me laugh that anyone would buy it, taking the poor pilots sleep away, those meanies.

“The only thing that’s broke is the moral compass of the rulers.

Hey, we have agreement here.

‘And we aim to fix that compass and steer the ship ourselves from now on. Never forget, as long as that Constitution of ours still stands, it’s one person, one vote, and it’s the thing the rich hate most about America — because even though they seem to hold all the money and all the cards, they begrudgingly know this one unshakeable basic fact: There are more of us than there are of them!’

Michael Moore and GW both believe the constitution is “just a goddamn piece of paper”, the only reason he’s mentioning it is to grab some of the more ignorant tea partiers into his rabble.

I read the whole article and like any propaganda there is some truth thrown in to snare the unwary, look it up, anyone advocating universal healthcare for all Americans does not believe in individual rights, the constitution, or freedom.

 

[/quote]

I think the point MMoore is trying to make is America wouldn’t be broke if the 400 members of the uber elite paid their fair share of taxes. 

The U.S is supposedly a democratic republic. Isn’t it?

http://www.williampmeyers.org/republic.html

The govt CAN create an outstanding educational system. Not that it is, but it sure can. Govt funded or subsidized charter schools seem to be the best bet for success in that area.

MMoore-“That then grows a new generation of inventers, entrepreneurs, artists, scientists and thinkers who come up with the next great idea for the planet. “

G Roberts “These types of people are enabled by being free not public schools.”

Really? Education has nothing to do with skill, creativity accomplishment? I feel compelled to practice neurosurgery but have been unsuccessful, thus far. It’s good to know that it has nothing to do with a lack of training. I simply struggle under the yolk of an oppressive govt. waiting for the day govt gets off my back. Then I’ll run with surgical scissors!

Anybody who advocates universal health care can do simple math. Percent of GDP for Canadian health care, is 7%–and everyone’s covered. For the U.S, it’s 15% and expected through Obamination-care to trend up to 20 and then upwards to 25%, within a decade. But darn, it’s all about the freedom to get sick and die, or lose your house and savings in order to pay for hospitalization. Freedom and choices. It’s what makes America great!

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