Moon landing hoax?

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  • Thu, Feb 04, 2010 - 06:59am

    #1
    jerryr

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    Moon landing hoax?

Hi Folks,

I’m a long time member but I haven’t posted much.  The quality of discussion and the information here is so excellent, I haven’t had much to add.

I’ve just been involved in a discussion at a site called “moonhoax.net” and I don’t think the moderation over there is very good.  So I’m posting this notice here, in case anyone from over there would like to come here to continue the discussion.  Or if any members of PeakProsperity.com have questions about the moon landing, here’s the place to discuss it.

Part of the discussion involved an article by David McGowan.  McGowan is not a scientist or engineer, and in some places his article suffers from that.  But he makes a lot of good points IMHO.

http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/Apollo1.html

 

  • Thu, Feb 04, 2010 - 07:07am

    #2
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: Moon landing hoax?

Oops, that other board is called apollohoax.net.

  • Thu, Feb 04, 2010 - 07:31pm

    #3
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: Moon landing hoax?

I have just come from the  Apollo Hoax site, to see what happens. As it seem that nobody else has come, I’ll try to answer your questions in a language as plain as possible. Keep in mind that I’m nowhere near the level of Jay Windley, so probably I’ll be stumped a few times.

  • Thu, Feb 04, 2010 - 08:43pm

    #4
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: Moon landing hoax?

Hi A_C_C,

Welcome to PeakProsperity.com. 

I’m wondering if maybe I was a little too quick to judge that the “Mythbusters” photo is overexposed.  This was based on a very poor screenshot that Dave McGowan posted on his website.  Do you know if there’s a clearer version of the “Mythbusters” photo somewhere?

It’s amusing to me that I pretty much admitted way back on p. 4 of that thread at Apollohoax, that I may need to revise my opinion based on the evidence presented by “theteacher” and linked at:

http://www3.telus.net/summa/moonshot/fillit.htm

I said I was planning to duplicate those experiments with my own camera, and if I can reproduce those results, I am probably going to be eating crow. 

But now three pages after I admitted that, and the next day after I left the board, they’re still posting abusive comments about me over there.  I can hardly imagine a more hostile climate for discussion.

  • Fri, Feb 05, 2010 - 03:40am

    #5
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: Moon landing hoax?

So it seems there isn’t much interest in the moon landing conspiracy theory here at .  Also A_C_C has disappeared, and nobody else from Apollohoax is interested in following-up either.  Including, most notably, the poster JayUtah, aka Jay Windley, who seemed very eager to discuss with me within the safety of his own controlled “forum”.

Windley is also the proprietor of the website clavius.org.  Both at clavius and apollohoax, Windley tirelessly defends the truth of NASA’s claims of manned lunar space flight. 

I went to apollohoax.net to discuss the Apollo photographic record.  Windley doggedly insisted that I provide quantitative / analytical proof that these photos were faked — in spite of his own failure to provide anything remotely living up to that same standard.  He claims to have settled the matter by carrying out a simulation of the lunar photographic environment in an experiment sponsored by the “Mythbusters” Tv series.  But as Dave McGowan pointed out, Windley’s much-vaunted “mythbusters” photo appears to be severely overexposed, with blown-out highlights.  Or at least, as far as I can tell from the copy posted at McGowan’s site, which looks like maybe it was photographed from McGowan’s TV screen.  I asked A_C_C if there’s a better copy, and then I looked around myself.  As far as I can find, there’s no better copy of this photo available at Windley’s website clavius.org, which seems very strange to me indeed.

I was frustrated by the hostile environment and the biased moderation at the apollohoax forum, so I challenged Windley to bring the discussion to an open forum such as this one.  His answer:

How dare you accuse me of cowardice.

I have debated these points for going on ten years now under my real name, on national television in the United States and on international television in the U.S., Canada, Great Britain, and Germany. I have been quoted by the New York Times, Newsweek, and Metropole. The only person who has put more of his money where is mouth is on this point is Dr. Phil Plait.

I invited David McGowan and David Percy to interactive debates on these points, but they both repeatedly declined — McGowan with a foul-mouthed insult.

You still haven’t explained how the moderator here is preventing you from making your point about the alleged Moon hoax. Your complaints are a red herring.

To which I reply: Jay Windley, you are the one who chose the word “cowardice”.  But there is no way that national or international television can be considered an “open forum”. 

And I laugh at any claim that apollohoax.net deserves to be called an open forum.  Of course McGowan and Percy have declined to debate under your site’s so-called “rules”. 

Windley further claimed to specifically reject this forum on the grounds that registration is required to read the forum.  But as we all well know here, there’s a vast array of information freely available at this site for anyone to check out without any registration at all.  And for posting, apollohoax.net is exactly the same — registration required.   

I wouldn’t be surprised if Windley or his cohorts are going to be reading this, in spite of those protestations about registration.

There’s more.  I did a little more searching around the Internet, and found an interesting video in which skeptic Jarrah White accused  Windley of fabricating emails from former scientist-astronaut Brian O’Leary.  According to news reports, astronaut O’Leary publicly stated that NASA may have faked some of the Apollo photographs in a studio.  Windley claimed to have received e-mails from O’Leary in which he disclaimed his public statements, but White contacted O’Leary, who denied ever having written to Windley.

I think the most likely explanation is that O’Leary simply forgot about his earlier exchange with Windley — but subsequent correspondence makes it clear that O’Leary still has his doubts.  O’Leary ironically wrote to White:

“I think they did land but am not 100% sure.  The condition of the world is such that we have more important questions to ask than that one.” 

  • Fri, Feb 05, 2010 - 11:16am

    #6
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: Moon landing hoax?

I haven’t disappeared, it’s simply that I’m spanish (from Spain, in Europe, not any Latin american country), our clock runs four hours before the US (East Coast time), so by the time that you posted your request I was probably dining, and by the time that you posted the next message I was sleeping.

Just now I don’t have time to answer to the usual barrage of half-truths and outright lies that you are spouting. But I’ll ask you something:

1) Why apart from the FOX “documentary” the only videos that support the Moon Hoax are videos uploaded by Michael Moore – wannabes in Youtube?

2) Check the credentials of most Hoax Believers, and then check the ones of Jay Windley and Phil Plait.

3) Check what O’Leary really said, and not what JW says what he says.

 

  • Fri, Feb 05, 2010 - 04:04pm

    #7
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: Moon landing hoax?

A_C_C,

Nice to hear from you again.  I just had a thought, maybe I should look to see whether the “Mythbusters” show has a website where I can find a copy of Jay’s studio photo.

Could you be more specific please about what “lies” I’m spouting? 

I did a quick Google search and couldn’t find anything about Jay’s qualifications.  Maybe you could help me out.

Opinion polls indicate that about 5% of Americans and 25% of people worldwide are “Hoax Believers”, so it would be quite a task to check all their qualifications.  I myself am a “Hoax Agnostic” like O’Leary seems to be.

JW says he has e-mails direct fom O’Leary which would presumably reflect what he actually said.  Are you claiming that JW is the one who forged the emails?  Because based on what I really know, it seems to be Jay’s word against JW.

  • Fri, Feb 05, 2010 - 05:58pm

    #8
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: Moon landing hoax?

You haven’t looked much, haven’t you?

https://computing.llnl.gov/linux/ucrl-jc-147996.pdf

The authors acknowledge Jay as one of the programmers responsible for the development of a Linux management utility called SLURM.

http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Windley_Jay_835117108.aspx

http://www.spoke.com/info/pACNcNi/JayWindley

Re: lies

The McGowan nonsense to start with. Of course for you aren’t lies. And there is the fact that I followed the discussion in Apollo Hoax and I didn’t saw personal attack to you. By the way, don’t you post also in JREF? There is a JerryR there, and you sound similar.

Re: opinion polls. Link, please?

Re: if he can produce them and O’Leary can verify them, I’ll concede it. But I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for that…

  • Fri, Feb 05, 2010 - 07:35pm

    #9
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: Moon landing hoax?

A_C_C,

Thanks for the info about Jay Windley.  So he has a BA in software engineering.  I have a BA in physics, an MSEE, and a PhD in cognitive science, and I have a 30 year career in engineering.  So my qualifications trump his.  As part of my BA training, I took some optics classes.  So it would seem I’m also more qualified than he is, to comment about the photographic images.  No, I don’t post at JREF.

Dave McGowan is an old friend of mine, and I told him that his Apollo piece has some serious errors.  I had a nice long chat with him the other night, and I think I may be winning him over to my position of Moon Hoax Agnostic.  But really, not yet.  In the final analysis he’s still skeptical, even more than I am.  

At any rate I assure you he’s not lying about anything, he’s stating his sincere beliefs.

Opinion polls.  I was stating figures from memory.  There are lots of polling organizations that have asked the question, with differing results.  Do you disagree that the number of Hoax Believers runs into the millions worldwide?

I don’t understand your basis for claiming that O’Leary’s emails have been fraudulently fabricated.  That’s the sort of claim I can’t honor without actual evidence.  But on the other hand, we do have O’Leary’s earlier statement that the photographs might have been faked, which was reported on national television.  That seems to me like pretty good evidence of basically where O’Leary stands.

  • Fri, Feb 05, 2010 - 07:38pm

    #10
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: Moon landing hoax?

A_C_C,

One other point I missed.  I am not a member of Pilots for 911 Truth.  But I am a Pilot (Cessna 152, long expired ticket) and I am for 911 Truth.  So all that stuff about Pilots for 911 Truth being idiots, liars and bigots.  I took that very personally.

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