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Is human population growth really a problem?

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  • Fri, Nov 06, 2009 - 11:33am

    #21
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    Re: Is human population growth really a problem?

But hey , if I am the only one  among the 1000 or so who visit here that believe Children are a gift from God, then  you might not have as big a worry as you think  and we will see 0 population growth very soon .

You are not alone.

  • Fri, Nov 06, 2009 - 05:57pm

    #22
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    Re: Is human population growth really a problem?

[quote]But hey , if I am the only one  among the 1000 or so who visit here that believe Children are a gift from God…[/quote]

Excuse me but this says a lot about why the population problem is intractable.  You have the Pope dispensing this truth to the poor in Africa and Asia.  But Catholic charities cannot do enough to combat child labor, prostitution and militias in war-torn areas.  And I don’t believe enough parents think this is true. 

  • Fri, Nov 06, 2009 - 06:30pm

    #23
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    Re: Is human population growth really a problem?

 r.     you could be right , I know nothing of the Catholic teaching or the Pope  , I do  think  it is the Muslims that are passing up everyone else added together .            Right again about  not enough parents think it is true. …   you just can’t make people care or have a servants heart .

   It is going to get interesting , very interesting ,in the world to come . 

  • Fri, Nov 06, 2009 - 07:14pm

    #24
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    Re: Is human population growth really a problem?

[quote=Full Moon]

…  if I am the only one  among the 1000 or so who visit here that believe Children are a gift from God …

[/quote]

[quote=earthwise]

You aren’t.

[/quote]

[quote=Cloudfire]

We may be rare, my lunar friend, but you’re not the only one . . . 

[/quote]

[quote=johnbryson]

You are not alone.

[/quote]

Anyone else?

Come on guys. Enough of the ‘holier than thou’ stuff. Consciously or not, the passive aggressive argument that you’re advancing here, with all the subtlety of a Mack truck, is a blatant straw man fallacy – the notion that those of us  who think overpopulation is a problem (and who apparently outnumber you poor persecuted few) must therefore NOT believe children are a gift.  – For the great majority of us, I’m sure, that is simply untrue and unfair.

I’m willing to defend your right to have as many children as you want just as vigorously as you would. But I would ask that you respect my desire to make this a better world for them – and I don’t think a world where people are starving and fighting over increasingly scarce resources is a better world. That’s all.

Peace

Greg

  • Fri, Nov 06, 2009 - 07:37pm

    #25
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    Re: Is human population growth really a problem?

[quote=r]

[quote]But hey , if I am the only one  among the 1000 or so who visit here that believe Children are a gift from God…[/quote]

Excuse me but this says a lot about why the population problem is intractable.  You have the Pope dispensing this truth to the poor in Africa and Asia.  But Catholic charities cannot do enough to combat child labor, prostitution and militias in war-torn areas.  And I don’t believe enough parents think this is true. 

[/quote]

r,

Your frustration is understandable, but I don’t think this is really the problem. The problem, in my view, is the growth addicted debt based economic system we talk about on this site everyday. Not only does the inherent profligacy of the system exponentially reduce the carrying capacity of the earth, it ensures that the poor stay poor. Short of brutally tragic or brutally authoritarian measures, we will never overcome the population explosion without overcoming poverty. And we will never overcome poverty until we change the fraudulent and exploitive system of economics we currently live under. I think that’s the real problem.

Peace

Greg

  • Sun, Nov 08, 2009 - 05:03pm

    #26
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    Re: Is human population growth really a problem?

Hi Greg,

I think we have the same objectives but maybe a different way of going about the solution.

We live in a consumption based society, without a proper dicernable understanding of needs vs wants. There is so much inefficiency in our consumption in the west, and so much inequity within the distribution of these material goods through out the world. As you righly mentioned this debt based, corporate, western world centric financial system – is driving much of this inefficiency and inequity. And I agree the first thing to do is to get rid of it!

But what do we replace it with? Whatever we replace our current system with I think needs to be based on a system that:

1) recognizes the limitations and constraints we have in this world

2) provides an opportunity for individuals to develop prosperity, and keep it!

3) strengthens society so that it is able to sustain difficulties in building a better future

4) has respect human life – in all it’s forms.

Declining resources (oil, natural resources) requires changes capable of a morally strong society. One that is able to accept short term pain for long term gain. The alternative is every man for himself, which usually ends up in chaos or at best a dictatorship of some sort.

Having said this, are we really sure that overpopulation is a problem, and not over consumption?

If we assume that overconsumption is the problem, wouldn’t steps taken to solve this issue reduce the influence of the monetary, financial and corporate system over the population? In this advent of declining resources, I see the “crisis” of overpopulation as the the ideal pretext for governments and the elite to exert more control over the population – not a way to make people more free. I also find it as a perfect excuse to redistribute the pie amongst less people…. just another way to increase individual wealth!

John

  • Tue, Nov 10, 2009 - 05:24am

    #27
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    Re: Is human population growth really a problem?

[quote=johnbryson]

Hi Greg,

I think we have the same objectives but maybe a different way of going about the solution.

Having said this, are we really sure that overpopulation is a problem, and not over consumption?

If we assume that overconsumption is the problem, wouldn’t steps taken to solve this issue reduce the influence of the monetary, financial and corporate system over the population? In this advent of declining resources, I see the “crisis” of overpopulation as the the ideal pretext for governments and the elite to exert more control over the population – not a way to make people more free. I also find it as a perfect excuse to redistribute the pie amongst less people…. just another way to increase individual wealth!

John

[/quote]

John

Only on Chris Martenson can I find myself simultaneously outflanked from the left AND the right at the same time! While I agree we appear to share many of the same objectives, we do not share the one in question here – that being population. You want to increase it. I do not. As for our solutions to our respective objectives, I agree, we’ve got different solutions. You want to use the government to increase the population. I don’t want to use the government to increase it OR decrease it. I don’t think it’s any of their business. I’m from the “government that governs least, governs best” camp.

Is overpopulation a problem? It sure looks that way to me. In almost every part of the world we’re up against serious resource constraints, especially water. But in a sense it doesn’t matter what I think, because the only solution I’m proposing is poverty alleviation. I’m confident that prosperous, educated people will be capable of deciding for themselves whether it’s a good idea to have more children or not. They don’t need elite central planners to decide for them. And so as for your concern about government and elites exploiting an overpopulation “crisis.” I think your concerns are justified. I want no part of that agenda.

As for over-consumption, I think that’s a function both of our growth addicted economic system as well as a foreign policy that is deeply exploitive of the developing world. Globalization is a sham. The IMF and World Bank keep the developing world in insurmountable debt. The WTO and other trade agreements skewed heavily to the rich nations keep 3rd world workers working for next to nothing – exacerbated by our reserve currency abuse. And of course the CIA and our trillion dollar military corrupts foreign governments and assures us cheap subsidized oil and other resources. I love my country as much as anyone, but our foreign policy is shameful.

But I sure hope you’re right about the population, because we’re not going to solve any of this quickly. This stuff is deeply entrenched. But if we can manage not to blow ourselves up or wipe ourselves out completely, I do think we could get it right someday. That’s my hope and belief.

Peace

Greg

  • Tue, Nov 10, 2009 - 10:13am

    #28
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    Time Gentlemen Please !!!

It’s a wonder … what in hell happened to inteligent debate here at CM over the past year ???

2000 years of murder through belief, 150 years of exponential growth from cheap energy and a doubling of global population since the inaugeration of President Kennedy? What does this tell you? 

We’re reducing one of the most genius sites to ever emerge on the net to a squabling match over who knows best!!!

As ever, well done to Greg for at least trying to reduce the sniping and, as ever, to DamnTheMatrix in bringing into the fray a ‘VERY IMPORTANT’ subject, only to have it reduced to rubble yet again. .

C1oudfire???

… as Albert Bartlett asks, “What time is it?”

Get your lives in perspective please. Oh, between wiping your feet at the door and before you sit down as a guessed at the table of this site, please hang your ego on the hook behind the door …

Best,

Paul

 

 

  • Sun, Nov 15, 2009 - 11:04am

    #29
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    Re: Is human population growth really a problem?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7YLwYfyHC8

 

 

  • Sun, Nov 15, 2009 - 03:38pm

    #30
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    Re: Is human population growth really a problem?

Hi Greg,

Thanks for your comments. The points I made at the begining of this thread – about incentivating population growth – was directed towards mainly European countries where births are way below replacement rates. As shown in Hans Roslings presentation (Thanks plato1965), population growth slows as populations grow older, safer and richer. So, if the trend holds true, population growth will stop in a few decades at 9-10 Billion.

As for government intervening in population growth – I think you are right that it is none of their business. I was attempting to propose some creative solutions for discussion, in light of the low births per woman we are experiencing here in Europe (Spain 1.3, Belgium 1.7).

Cheers,

John

 

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