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If the problem is too much money…..

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  • Mon, Aug 31, 2009 - 10:15am

    #1

    Thomas Hedin

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    If the problem is too much money…..

I keep seeing all these people saying that the problem is that they just print to much money, and it makes all the other money just worthless without addressing the fact that 100% of our money comes into exsistance as an interest bearing loan.  They also skip by the fact that as the debt increases so does the interest load(generally, it does depend on the interest rates).  As the debt grows so does the interest load, and the tax load to service the debt on the government debts, and with the increase in the interest load and tax load the cost of business increases(price inflation).

So how would putting money into circulation free of debt harm the economy?

 

OR

Lets just say for instance that too much money is our problem.  Then how about we all pull out half the money we have and tear it up, because by the rational of the people who say they ‘just print to much money’ we’ll solve all our economic problems by tearing up our money, that way we will quit having too much of it.  If that is the solution lets just do it so we can end our economic disaster and get back to prosperity.

 

Lets start using some common sense here people.

Support The Minnesota Transportation Act, because it will put real debt free, wealth based money into circulation which can be used to pay down the debt and decrease the cost of doing business(restore the purchasing power of the dollar).

  • Mon, Aug 31, 2009 - 12:19pm

    #2
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: If the problem is too much money…..

A thread has been created to discuss the Minnesota Transportation Act.  Anyone interested can go here: https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/minnesota-transportation-act-horrible-idea/26260

Thomas, stop hijacking this entire site.  Most people here are willing to discuss just about anything, but you do not have a right to hijack the site.  Of course I am not the owner, and maybe CM does not mind your blatant propaganda attempts, but I am not the first to voice my decreasing amount of patience with your neverending political parade.

  • Mon, Aug 31, 2009 - 01:51pm

    #3
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: If the problem is too much money…..

 

Not sure if tearing it up would do much, considering how 3% of the money supply is actual physical money. Rest of it is all digital.

 

Debt free money would be nice.  Gotta end the OLIGARCHS and their scam.  

  • Mon, Aug 31, 2009 - 05:35pm

    #4
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: If the problem is too much money…..

[quote=Farmer Brown]

A thread has been created to discuss the Minnesota Transportation Act.  Anyone interested can go here: https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/minnesota-transportation-act-horrible-idea/26260

Thomas, stop hijacking this entire site.  Most people here are willing to discuss just about anything, but you do not have a right to hijack the site.  Of course I am not the owner, and maybe CM does not mind your blatant propaganda attempts, but I am not the first to voice my decreasing amount of patience with your neverending political parade.

[/quote]

Second that.  How wacky is it that after months of howling about the MTA, it gets it own thread and TH is nowhere to be seen on it?

  • Mon, Aug 31, 2009 - 05:41pm

    #5
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: If the problem is too much money…..

Farmer Brown said:

A thread has been created to discuss the Minnesota Transportation Act. Anyone interested can go here: https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/minnesota-transportation-act-horrible-idea/26260

Thomas, stop hijacking this entire site. Most people here are willing to discuss just about anything, but you do not have a right to hijack the site. Of course I am not the owner, and maybe CM does not mind your blatant propaganda attempts, but I am not the first to voice my decreasing amount of patience with your neverending political parade.

Farmer Brown,

Thomas did not start the “Minnesota Transportation Act a Horrible Idea” thread, it was started by someone else and I don’t think you should take it upon yourself to steer all of Thomas’ comments there.  I have observed many people visiting this forum ask “what can we do about it” with respect to monetary policy.  Thomas offers monetary solutions and logic that I think many find interesting.  If not, they may freely pass on those posts.

Monetary theory is an extremely important issue as people try to figure out what is happening.  The causes and solutions to our financial crisis become evident when one starts probing the fundamentals of modern money mechanics.  What you see as propaganda I see as a refreshing dose of common sense and monetary wisdom.  Many will bitch about the current state of affairs but few stand up with viable solutions.

As long as one of the “Es” is the economy, then the fundamental issue of monetary theory and mechanics should remain a relevant and important part of this forum.

Larry

  • Mon, Aug 31, 2009 - 06:06pm

    #6
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: If the problem is too much money…..

The problem is too much marketing…..+1 FB,

and Sager expressed my observations perfectly! (as usual) 

  • Mon, Aug 31, 2009 - 06:44pm

    #7
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: If the problem is too much money…..

I did go to the “horrible idea” thread Sager and JAG. 

 

Farmer Brown,

Instead of attacking me, how about you attack my logic and find out where it is flawed?  If you don’t want to read what I post, then please, skip over it, and let the other people who are interested in monetary facts and solutions feel free to read.  I respect everything you write and don’t tell you where to go or what to do, or to leave the site.

I am not a highjacker, I’m mearly a concerned citizen who stumbled upon the fraud that is our banking system, and is working day and night to fix it.  I’ve made every effort possible with you to hear your ideas to fix our system.  In as little as three years, mathmatically, the interest on the total debt(government, state, personal, businesss) if it continues to expand at the current rate will exceed the total consumer income.  I believe that we can either stop fighting with each other, start to learn the facts about how money is created and destroyed in our system, and the consequences thereof, or we are going to watch our country literally be ripped apart by this parasitic banking system. 

I enjoy posting on CM.com because of all the posting I’ve did CM appears to really let people run free with ideas, even if they counter what he thinks, and why shouldn’t people be allowed to be free thinkers?  If I don’t agree with someone, I mearly just ask them a question where I think there might be a problem.  Please stop the name calling as I doubt it will do any good for me, or anyone else on this website.  All I ask is that if there is something factually wrong with what I’m posting, please let me know.  And for the record, yes I have learned a lot from coming to this website.  I find a lot of great information here.

 

  • Mon, Aug 31, 2009 - 07:06pm

    #8
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: If the problem is too much money…..

Thomas,

The reason I have been forced to resort to attacking you is because you will not defend your ideas but you do continue to lobby for them to the great annoyance of many.  You have been asked serious questions by people whom you might be able to win to your side, but instead of engaging them in a real discussion, you avoid questions and continue popping the same ideas you will not defend into other discussions.

The following is what I wrote a few weeks ago.  I am still waiting for an answer:

You continue to insist that government can produce money.  If you believe that, then you must have a different definition of what money is than I do.  I firmly believe that money represents excess production.  Since the government cannot produce anything – in fact, it itself is a product of excess production, it cannot produce money.  It subsists only upon the excess production of others, and excess production must exist in order to have money in the first place, and to create a government in the second place.

Government can “fabricate” money it arbitrarilly devines value upon, if people give it the power to do so, and which we obviously have.    But this money exists only at the point of a gun.  The police-force of the state, which by definition is founded upon violence against the individual, is used to enforce acceptance of these arbitrary units, and that is all these units are founded upon – violence against the individual producer, and in favor the collective leach, using the process of converting the product of individual members’s production into pieces of paper it declares to be money, which it then spends to provide favor for the market players who produce little other than votes. 

The fact our particular brand of money is technically created by a private banking cartel, and not the actual government, is inmaterial to this discussion.  What you are proposing is the creation of money by government, and what I am contesting is that your system would be no different than what we have now in almost all respects.  Therefore, when I refer to our existing system, and the “government” behind it, I do so conscious of the fact that although it is not the actual government, but a private banking cartel licensed by the government, that detail is irrelevant to what what I see as completely wrong with both the existing system and your proposed system.

One thing you have not explained, at least to my satisfaction, is the concept of interest-free money.  That is illogical and unsustainable as far as I can see.  Would it then be illegal for one person to rent his property to another?  If not, then why would one asset, real estate, be treated differently than another asset, money (which you would make illegal to rent)? 

We practically had interest-free money this whole decade.  That didn’t work out so well, and I don’t see how any system that makes the cost of money zero or close to zero could possibly avoid bubbles in one asset class or another. 

How would savings be encouraged in your system, if there were no return upon the savings due to zero interest?

These are just some of the basic questions that come to mind when contemplating what you have still mostly refused to explain.  I appreciate the links you have provided, but I am not going to read them until you can provide, in layman’s language, a brief summary of what I am going to find there.  All I keep seeing from you are nebulous posts, critiques (which I mostly agree with) against the current system, Socratic questions (which are getting annoying at least to me to be totally frank), all followed up with far too general and as far as I can tell, greatly lacking “solutions”. 

 

  • Mon, Aug 31, 2009 - 07:54pm

    #9
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: If the problem is too much money…..

Reposting my recent post on the other thread (because I don’t know how to link to a specific post).  Sure there have been times when I didn’t find Thomas’ questions to be the best way of making his points, but we’re in the middle of being strangled by the bankers (hello! anyone home!?) just like they strangled Germany, Argentina, Zimbabwe, Russia, SE Asia, Mexico, and now every other country in the world with slight ties to the $.  Thomas is involved in 1 little effort to try something else, a tiny David vs. Goliath, and we attack David!!?  Twilight zone…

————–

Such a shame that the ONLY proactive effort being made to do anything about the financial tyranny we’re under that is about to ruin all of our lives, especially our future generations, is being attacked more than anything on this site.  On another issue, several months ago some were attacking those who just want to garden and ignore the DC/Wall St issues because it’s not the perfect solution to solving our problem.  But hey, it’s something.  It’s something BIG, so let’s all do it because it disempowers the banking/corporate system, even though the constitution doesn’t grant to the people the power to garden. Laughing   In my opinion, that’s a good philosophy on the money issue as well. It’s something. States and people better try something or game over…50 states are 50 different labs…it’s absurd to claim MN issuing a little new money is going to somehow irresponsibly damage a system that has become impossibly massive and corrupt.  That’s elitist thinking…the mentality of the Wall St/DC gang…serves their interests.

Regarding the financial system, this site is just a bunch of talk.  I like it…I participate…I’m just pointing out that nobody is actually DOING anything about the Fed system.  We always hear “we can’t do anything about that.”  Well, this bill is an example of something that can be done.  It’s being done.  It would be done 1) if more people gave a [email protected]#$ about their money system, and 2) if the only people who did care, like those on this site, weren’t trying to kill the effort.  It’s just odd that somebody actually tries to do something, perfect or not, and it’s called “horrible,” a “flop,” etc.

What is clear is that most people on this site agree the Fed is a malignant cancer.  And we’re the patient.  That means death is on the way.  End the Fed is becoming a more accepted idea, even in the media.  I suspect it will be ended as we enter into the bottom of the depression. But I DON’T want it in the hands of the same ole elite bankers that control the same ole drunk idiots in DC.  They cannot be the ones telling us what our next system is going to be without proper input from states/people.  MTA is a good, SMALL lab experiment to see what happens…would be useful info from a state to help the feds when they end the Fed instead of pushing it up to the next banker system…BIS/IMF.

  • Mon, Aug 31, 2009 - 08:28pm

    #10
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Re: If the problem is too much money…..

[quote=Thomas Hedin]

I did go to the “horrible idea” thread Sager and JAG. 

[/quote]

I see now that you did (today).  

My description of your not being on the MTA thread (for days) as being “wacky” is not meant to be disrespectful…

A wee parable:

A bunch of kids are hanging out at the playground — a little baseball, a little throwin’ the football, a little dodgeball.  A new kid shows up, name of Thomas, bouncing a round ball and asking lots of hard-to-answer questions:

“What sort of game uses a spherical ball?”

“What playground game does not allow ‘traveling’?”

“Do you know what dribbling is?”

Since none of us kids at the playground had met Thomas before (or played any game with the ball Thomas was bouncing), we were kind of at a loss.  

Thomas would come and go, reappearing every so often to ask more oblique questions.

“Does it make sense to foul a guy on a layup when you’re down by 2 with 12 seconds to go?”

Then one day, a couple of other kids set up a funny basket-looking thing on top of a pole on the blacktop, and began running back and forth, throwing their spherical ball around and trying to shoot it into the hoop (or prevent same).  Man, they played that game all afternoon.  We all wondered where the heck Thomas was, now that some other kids had showed up playing his game.  We all figured he’d’ve been in there making mincemeat outta the newcomers with his patented tomahawk slam (whatever that was [he’d asked us a few questions about it one afternoon]).

We thought it strange he wasn’t there to play.  I myself actually used the word “wacky”.

I almost posted something to this effect in the MTA thread last week, but figured you were either busy with PIMS (projects in meat-space) like me (which is why I’ve been less-seen around here lately) or on vacation (ditto).

No harm, no foul?

VIVA! — Sager

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