Investing in Precious Metals 101 ad

Help A Guy Out With His Thinking, Would Ya?

Login or register to post comments Last Post 2453 reads   14 posts
Viewing 10 posts - 1 through 10 (of 14 total)
  • Wed, Dec 16, 2009 - 01:55am

    #1

    Peter Bartels

    Status Silver Member (Offline)

    Joined: Dec 27 2008

    Posts: 194

    count placeholder

    Help A Guy Out With His Thinking, Would Ya?

No, Seriously. Help me out. 

I struggle by the day to become “less ignorant”. But, after decades of western education, there was a point in my life where my ability to incorporate logical, rational, and critical reasoning had atrophied to such a degree that my responses to the issue du jour went something like this:

“America, love it or leave it”. (Any criticism of America elicited this response)

“What? You want regulations? You’re just a big government socialist!” (Auto response to suggestions of regulation of business activity)

“Peak Oil? Bwahahahaa! OMG! *laughing uncontrollably*. Trust me, if we were running out of oil they would tell us about it. Besides, we have 100 years of coal!” (Nevermind asking who “they” are. “They’ were about as definable as “society”.)

The point that I am making is that in the past I used to rely on beliefs, dogma, and emotions for all of my arguments. I’d made up my mind and sure as heck didn’t want YOU confusing the heck out of me with those pesky FACTS. 

So, this recovering Half-Baked PseudoIntellectual still struggles daily with beliefs vs. facts. Most of the time I overcome the former, but the programming is in place and it’s a daily inner struggle. 

Basically, I am on a long road to what I call Demoronification. That is, the replacement of emotionally elicited responses to intellectual stimuli with reasoned, rational, and logical analysis. 

And I need a little help. Do you ever find your “beliefs” challenged with a tough counterpoint made, only to become insessantly angry, and unable to respond to your opponents argument? Do you become filled with indignation that this guy could so overlook “the obvious”?

The fact is that often “the obvious” is not so obvious. Gutcheck time often tells me that I am becoming irritated with someone when I fall into dogmatic certainty, and that person challenges my dogma and he/she is doing a damn good job at it. 

That’s a problem that I still see in myself at times, and more so in the culture at large. 

Is it me, or when someone gets angry when presented with an uncomfortable argument or information (such as the Crash Course) we are reacting to cognitive dissonance

And how to deal with it?

How do I, or anyone else for that matter, fight dogmatic impulses and get back on track with respect to constantly challenging one’s beliefs? 

How do you seek truth, rather than a comfort zone? And do it without deluding yourself into thinking that you’re discovering the former, while really fulfilling the later? 

 

 

  • Wed, Dec 16, 2009 - 02:29am

    #2
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 31 2017

    Posts: 1613

    count placeholder

    Re: Help A Guy Out With His Thinking, Would Ya?

Pete,

I feel your pain.  No, I mean it I too feel your pain!  Maybe we share too much phiysics training and too few applicable equations/models?

– Jim

  • Wed, Dec 16, 2009 - 02:48am

    #3
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 31 2017

    Posts: 1613

    count placeholder

    Re: Help A Guy Out With His Thinking, Would Ya?

Morpheus, “demoronification” is now one of my favorite words!  OMG, the world could use an outbreak of that!

Also, are you sure you’re not my husband (based on your description of emotional responses)?:)

  • Wed, Dec 16, 2009 - 02:55am

    #4
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 31 2017

    Posts: 1613

    count placeholder

    Re: Help A Guy Out With His Thinking, Would Ya?

Hey Morpheus —

While I have no ironclad strategy for coping when somebody is hammering in on my dogmas/beliefs (and the whole thing is complicated when the emotional response kicks in, muddying my thinking), I do try to keep listening unless/until I start to hear talking-point-type volleys.  Conversely, when I feel some pushback in a conversation with somebody (i.e., where I’m bumping up against *their* dogma/beliefs) I try to shift sideways out of my argument and see where I might come in sideways around their dogmas.  Sometimes coming in from the edges helps to evade their big walls. 

But usually, if someone has a strongly-defended view of things, no argument is going to sliiiide past the defenses.  For this reason — and because I’m so very busy with a hundred other things — for the most part I longer try to convince people.  I just let them know what I’m thinking and then disengage if it’s a dogmatic debate they’re looking for.  I sorta figure either they’re a lost cause or they’ll catch up with me later (assuming what I told them sank in) when their perception of reality catches up with mine (if it ever does).  If it never does, then either I was wrong (in which case I saved both of us some time) or they never ‘get it’ in which case I don’t know what the point of conversation would be (I’ll be too busy feeding my chickens and mucking out the composting toilet to worry about it).

Viva — Sager

  • Wed, Dec 16, 2009 - 03:05am

    #5
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 31 2017

    Posts: 1613

    count placeholder

    Re: Help A Guy Out With His Thinking, Would Ya?

P.S.  By the way of a little more constructive response, learn to recognize your anger as a “litmus test” indicating that a belief you hold is being challenged.  It won’t happen right away.  First you’ll recongize it too late, after the fact.  But the more you work at it, the sooner you’ll recognize and become conscious of what’s going on.  Eventually, you’ll be able to catch yourself as you’re doing it, then before. 

A friend, giving me the same advice, once told me this great little story (and this is mega-paraphrasing),

“I was walking down the street, and there was a hole in front of me.  I did not see the hole, kept walking, and fell into it. 

The next day I was walking down the street, and there was a hole in front of me.  I saw the hole, but still kept walking, and fell into it.

The next day, I walked around the hole.”

Hang in there Morpheus.  You’ve made a ton of progress already, based on what you said above, and your posts that I’ve read before.  Stick with it, and with your desire to change, you will!

  • Wed, Dec 16, 2009 - 04:03am

    #6
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 31 2017

    Posts: 1613

    count placeholder

    Re: Help A Guy Out With His Thinking, Would Ya?

[quote=Morpheus]

How do you seek truth, rather than a comfort zone? And do it without deluding yourself into thinking that you’re discovering the former, while really fulfilling the later? 

[/quote]

Truth? What’s that?

  • Wed, Dec 16, 2009 - 04:16am

    #7
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 31 2017

    Posts: 1613

    count placeholder

    Re: Help A Guy Out With His Thinking, Would Ya?

Morpheus asks:

How do you seek truth, rather than a comfort zone? And do it without deluding yourself….?

Truth is omnipresent.  It is our intellectualization of  truth which deludes us.  Keep up your inquiry, especially into those areas which cause you the greatest dis-comfort.    

  • Wed, Dec 16, 2009 - 04:54am

    #8
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 31 2017

    Posts: 1613

    count placeholder

    Re: Help A Guy Out With His Thinking, Would Ya?

Morpheus,

I would offer that most of us that  visit this site are on the same road with you. I appreciate your being on the road!

If the majority of our race was enlightened as regards what our future may hold then we would not be visiting this site at all or having issues with reasoning out solutions with others. I too go through what I would call a cycle of emotional responses and “unwillingnes to look” is the one I have the most trouble with, esp if it is coming from someone who is in a position of undue influence over others.

In those situations I have changed up my response somewhat and simply ask “Do you think our civilization will continue like it is indefinately? The answer can be no or yes but the follow up is “What event do you think will happen to cause it to change? Then you will need to end it off so they leave thinking about their answer. This gets their attention off of responding to you and actually consulting their own beliefs rather than attacking yours. I leave them with a CC  DVD and say, there are some interesting facts here that you might find interesting.

IMHO I don’t think there are more than 3 or 4 % of the population that will really develop a good conceptual understanding of what we are truly facing. That comes from the Pareto’s 80/20 Law. So you will encounter a fair amount (80%) of resistance to find the 20% that is more aligned. So the more you communicate the better the odds of finding like minded people. You just have to get past that doggone 80%. Keep Swingin!

Coop

 

  • Wed, Dec 16, 2009 - 05:15am

    #9
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 31 2017

    Posts: 1613

    count placeholder

    Re: Help A Guy Out With His Thinking, Would Ya?

Is it me, or when someone gets angry when presented with an uncomfortable argument or information (such as the Crash Course) we are reacting to cognitive dissonance

And how to deal with it?

How do I, or anyone else for that matter, fight dogmatic impulses and get back on track with respect to constantly challenging one’s beliefs? 

How do you seek truth, rather than a comfort zone? And do it without deluding yourself into thinking that you’re discovering the former, while really fulfilling the later?

Morpheus,

Thanks for a very thought provoking post.  I guess I feel very similar because over the past few years, after a lot of reading and introspection, I have found my beliefs about a lot of issues have drastically changed.  I remember when I first found this site, I agreed with the Economic issues in the CC but I thought the Environmental threat was over blown and peak Energy was a load of crap. 

The ways it going now, I just wonder what I will believe a year or two.  Wink

 

  • Wed, Dec 16, 2009 - 07:46am

    #10
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 31 2017

    Posts: 1613

    count placeholder

    Re: Help A Guy Out With His Thinking, Would Ya?

Pete-

Well to be honest I’m probably on the opposite end of the scale from how you describe your old self, with an inclination to look at the world as a range of varying possibilities rather than certainties or absolutes.  My ‘core’ beliefs can probably be counted on one hand (a clumsy wood shop teacher’s hand no less Tongue out), and even those few are quite general in nature.  Arguments or dialogue based on unshakeable belief, emotion, dogma, or absolutes tend to make me a little uncomfortable or frustrated, so to be honest the kind of person you describe yourself as being in the past are usually the ones I reflexively avoid!  On the plus side, I don’t often experience reflexive anger or indignation with people challenging my positions, probably because I’m not usually highly ‘vested’ in them.  Also, I find it usually helps me to make better, or at least better informed, decisions.  The negative side is that I get more easily confused or more prone to indecision than most people, and I find myself spending entirely too much time trying to be ‘well-informed’ (it’s particularly hard in the current media environment where so much questionable or biased information is thrown around).  Obviously I place heavy emphasis on logic but so often I still find myself having to operate on intuition, without which I would be totally lost.  I also seem to get burned out pretty easily by the world at large, often needing to spend extensive time away from the news and even other people.  I find either myself getting irritated with the way most other people think, or find other people getting irritated with me for not choosing a side or taking a firm position on something.

I suppose I could say try to look at all things in terms of ranges of probability without a lot of emotional attachment, but that sort of seems like telling a moose that he should act more like a fish.  And to be honest I don’t think my way of thinking is the best way either, because I don’t think I’m having a much easier time of things than the people who are sure of themselves for the wrong reasons.  So instead of that, maybe you can try to actively look for those same stubborn habits of ‘the old you’ in other people you interact with, and maybe it’ll make you more aware of your own emotional or belief-based reactions.  Contrary to what some say, people can’t ‘control’ emotions or emotional responses… but if you can learn to recognize them you can at least ‘manage’ them, if that makes any sense. 

– Nickbert

 

 

Viewing 10 posts - 1 through 10 (of 14 total)

Login or Register to post comments