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Guyenot: Who are the Neocons?

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  • Mon, Dec 14, 2015 - 05:31pm

    #11

    Time2help

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    Dual Allegiance more relevant than Dual Citizenship

Let’s Talk about Dual Allegiance (National Review)

[quote]The concept of dual allegiance — the idea that some Americans have political allegiance to a foreign state as well as to the United States — is inconsistent with the moral foundation of American democracy. Our form of government is based on equality of citizenship, and dual-allegiance citizens are by definition civic bigamists.

Dual-allegiance citizens exist in a political space beyond the American constitutional community. Besides being part of “We the People of the United States,” they are apparently members of another “people” — a foreign political community — with different and competing responsibilities and commitments. These foreign interests and commitments dilute their commitment, attachment, and allegiance to the United States.[/quote]

Dual Allegiance: A Challenge to Immigration Reform and Patriotic Assimilation (Center for Immigration Studies)

[quote]In 1967, the U.S. Supreme Court in Afroyim v. Rusk, by a vote of 5-4, overturned 200 years of traditional American practice toward dual allegiance. Nevertheless, there is plenty of effective action that Congress could take within current Supreme Court interpretations.[/quote]

  • Mon, Dec 14, 2015 - 05:43pm

    #12

    Bankers Slave

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    Dual citizenship or not,

Chertoff has proven himself to be a traitor to the people of America! Enjoy your Homeland security and ever diminishing freedom thanks to scum like him!

  • Mon, Dec 14, 2015 - 07:02pm

    #13

    sand_puppy

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    Confirming and Denying Dual Citizenship Status

Yoxa,

Documenting Israeli citizenship is difficult.  And, as noted above by others, the real issue is "Whom do you serve?"

I can find some 20 articles where Michael Chertoff is described as a dual citizen, others where he is praised by known neocons, and others where the exploits of both of his parents (Rabbi Dr. Gershon B. Chertoff and Livia Chertoff (nee Eisen)) for the Mossad are praised.  Is this a credible indicator?

Please let me enlist your help with this research project and reveal the difficulty of finding "proof." 

Can anyone document that Michael Chertoff is NOT an Israeli citizen? 

 

  • Mon, Dec 14, 2015 - 08:36pm

    #14
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Me thinks you protest too much

[quote=Yoxa]

[quote] Persons born outside Israel are Israeli citizens if their father or mother holds Israeli citizenship [/quote]

That doesn't tell me whether Chertoff has dual citizenship -now-. Many people relinquish dual citizenship when they take positions in the government so what's his status now?

Give me a credible source, please.

Another thought: even if someone has dual citizenship because of a parent, it's a knee-jerk assumption to think that makes them less loyal to the country where they were born and raised. Inferences to that effect need to be backed up by a lot more than hearsay evidence, assumptions and speculation, which is all I've seen so far.

 

[/quote]

so what your saying is he MIGHT not be a dual citizen because it's POSSIBLE he renounced his Israeli citizenship.  but… even if he is a dual citizen, that doesn't impugn his loyalty to the US  despite his public role and documented actions with regards to the 9 11 / investigation /patriot act etc.

So what?  You will need to hear authenticated wiretap recordings for this to resonate with you??

Normal investigative technique RELIES on your  "hearsay evidence, assumptions and speculation" in order to produce suspects and motives and to eventually allow the collection of hard and circumstantial evidence for a court of law. 

  While Guyenot does not have subpoena power, he does a credible job of connecting the dots with rigorous sourcing.

Putting out calls for 'hard evidence'  of internal loyalties /motivation  on something like this is disingenuous at best.  This is a discussion in a blog post,  Not a court in the Hague.

I honestly can't tell if you are purposefully being obdurate,  or lack  the ability   to draw common sense inferences from context. 

Given the context of Chertoff's upbringing,  I can confidently infer that he has a profound loyalty to the State of Israel. Given his actions and career path and Israel's documented history and methodology  of covert operations, I would conclude that he is likely a Mossad asset.  Can I prove it?  No. 

Even if you could prove this in a court of law.  I'm sure the investigation would be stymied  by the state secrets provisions of the Patriot Act.     wait,  he helped author that?    wow that's a coincidence!

 

mememonkey

 

 

 

 

  • Mon, Dec 14, 2015 - 09:06pm

    #15

    Time2help

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    Citizenship or not…

…it would seem to come down to loyalties. Where (and with whom) do a persons loyalties lie?

Is getting all tied up in the specific details of citizenship (which may well be difficult to prove or disprove) missing the point?

  • Mon, Dec 14, 2015 - 10:40pm

    #16

    jtwalsh

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    Competing Interests

Mememonkey said:    

“Given the context of Chertoff's upbringing, I can confidently infer that he has a profound loyalty to the State of Israel. Given his actions and career path and Israel's documented history and methodology of covert operations, I would conclude that he is likely a Mossad asset.  Can I prove it?  No.” 

This entire thread is giving me chills. Having three grandparents who were immigrants (the fourth was a child of immigrants) I am fairly terrified by the “guilt by where your genes came from” tone of what is being discussed by otherwise rational people. Chertoff should be judged by what we know of him in his career and public life.  There is certainly plenty of grist there without creating an un-provable, conspiratorial, traitorous, dark side for him.  

By virtue of my father’s mother being born in Ireland he was automatically a dual-citizen.  I have the right to claim dual citizenship as a native born citizen of the United States and as a citizen abroad of the Irish Republic.  I have not formally applied for my Irish passport but have assembled the paperwork necessary and have studied the process. I do not consider my residual loyalty to the land of my ancestors as compromising my loyalty to the United States.  I can work and hope for the success of both peoples.  I can and I have supported American politicians who I felt were supportive and understanding of the needs and struggles of Ireland and the Irish, and who would use their authority to foster the well being of both Ireland and the US.  I have spoken my views on the British government’s violence to quell Northern Irish moves towards independence. (Often assisted by our government looking the other way.) I do not believe that my views and loyalties to the land of my ancestors, or my speaking of them and supporting them politically, should exclude me from economic or political positions in the United States. These activities do not make me a traitor to the country where I was raised and have lived my life.

On the other side of my gene pool, my mother’s parents came from Poland. With my Anglo-Irish last name and my practiced New England accent few people I meet suspect my half Slavic ancestry. I have endured uncounted episodes where ignorant Anglos tell a stupid Polack joke, only to be thoroughly embarrassed as I reveal my ancestry.  The response is an almost universal “well I didn’t mean you personally.”  Of course they did, the fools.  They were lumping all people of a particular culture and genetic makeup into an impersonal negative stereotype without regard of individual differences. In line with these experiences, I am sorry, but hearing some of the allegations presented here, the earnest declarations of “I don’t mean all Jews” rings very hollow with me.  “I didn’t mean all Polacks, just the dumb ones.”

Things are not good for many people at present.  It is a near certainty that things will not improve in the short term.  A large part of what we do at PP is to assist each other in preparing for the physical, intellectual and emotional turmoil to come. In the current election cycle the political folks on both right and left have already been working the ethnic, religious, racial, divide to conquer meme. If we give into this process while things are still relatively tranquil, dividing into tribal groups with multiple grudges will be the death of many of us when things really get interesting.

The enemy here is a sociopathic group of people who crave power, wealth and fame and who have their hands on the levers of our economic and political systems.  They come from every race, every nationality, every socio-economic group and they have corrupted systems to the point of collapsing them.  Their one commonality is that they would allow people, nations, economies, science, medicine, cultures, indeed the planet itself, to die, if they thought it would advance their aims and satisfy their insatiable appetites for one minute.

Our goal should be to survive their folly and then to be looking to create a better future.

JT

  • Mon, Dec 14, 2015 - 10:51pm

    #17
    Yoxa

    Yoxa

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    Obdurate indeed

I asked for a credible source to verify a claim that was made in this thread.

I'm still waiting.

If that makes me obdurate, so be it.

 

 

  • Mon, Dec 14, 2015 - 11:39pm

    #18
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Obdurate Smoke Screen

It seems to me that S/P and Mememonkey have provided enough "coincidental" dot connection to support a reasonable conclusion of culpability or suspicion, that overcomes a self righteous demand for satisfaction on a minor point.   

  • Tue, Dec 15, 2015 - 12:22am

    #19
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Misconstrued

Jt Walsh,

I understand your concern, but feel that it is misconstrued. If you read the source article that started this thread and follow the arguments presented.  It is explicitly clear that the discussion is about a political agenda, that happens to be manifested in the context of the objectives of  a National State. 

The fact that Israel is by definition a religious State muddies the water and allows for conflating exploration of these issues with charges of  bigotry Anti Semitism etc.  

 I stand by the statement you quoted,  as a matter of logic.   I am taking into consideration in  toto,  both the actions of Michael Chertoff and his background  (being raised by Mossad agents) as being indicative of implicit support of Zionist agenda.    

  This is in no way     "lumping all people of a particular culture and genetic makeup into an impersonal negative stereotype without regard of individual differences"

I would make a similar observations about Lynn Cheney, daughter of Darth Cheney as she is a rabid Neocon as well  Parental influence a significant (albeit not determining) factor in examining character and motivation and a data point worth consideration.

The record of explicit support of Zionism by the Neocons both Jewish and non Jewish is both public and unambiguous. If you read the article you would see that Neocon agenda is by definition a Zionist agenda.

I don't disagree  with your concept of 'the enemy' as:

"The enemy here is a sociopathic group of people who crave power, wealth and fame and who have their hands on the levers of our economic and political systems.  They come from every race, every nationality, every socio-economic group"

But we are talking about one very critical subset of that group, and attempting to dissect their actions and motivations based on a particular misguided Nationalistic, political objective.

Discussing the people with agency in this matter  includes the context of their ties to the political objectives of a foreign National State hence the 'dual citizen' issue. ( which has been pointed out in this discussion is inadequate and distracting  label relative to the more relevant issue of loyalty/motivation

If a group of actors act in the interests of a foreign state to the detriment of their resident state, is it not fair to question and examine their relationship to that foreign state?   Or do we ignore this because it requires crossing a minefield of political correctness?

 

mememonkey

  • Tue, Dec 15, 2015 - 01:50am

    #21
    Yoxa

    Yoxa

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    Quote: It seems to me that

[quote] It seems to me that S/P and Mememonkey have provided enough "coincidental" dot connection to support a reasonable conclusion of culpability or suspicion, that overcomes a self righteous demand for satisfaction on a minor point. [/quote]

Nope, they haven't. On my planet, it takes more than assumption, speculation and innuendo to connect dots.

If wanting verification of "a minor point" is self-righteous, then hey, I'm self-righteous as well as obdurate.

I'm reminded of Van Halen's performance contract which required that the band be provided with a bowl of M&Ms from which the candies of a certain color had all been removed. Some people thought that was a prima-donna demand, but actually the bowl of candies was a quick, clear signal to the band about whether the set-up team in the concert city had been careful or sloppy with the details in the job specs. The "minor point" was sometimes a signal of much larger problems.

 

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