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Government and Capitalism

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  • Tue, Dec 23, 2008 - 04:39pm

    #11

    joe bender

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    Re: Government and Capitalism

i am ignorant of constitiutional law so forgive me if my questions seem elementary.

when the constitution was written the fathers were not dealing with over 40k lobbyists.

there were very few corporations to deal with and the ones that were around were set up primarily for public works projects like canals and roads. corporations were not given the same rights as individuals. this is a key point which is a prime reason why we are where we are (imho) and the constitution is silent on this simply because it was not an issue.

there were no computers and money was money ie specie not dots on a computer screen. a very small percentage of our currency is actually physical and we can do away with the fed but that will not change that fact. 

so again when i ask for ideas i would hope to hear specific solutions to those problems. again i am sure i am missing something as i am no scholar. but i would like to hear some dialog about how we extricate ourselves from the grip of corporations. corporations are acting inside the framework of our constitution and laws.

as for returning to the principles in the constitution this is the question i am asking. i still have not received an answer. i have heard the constitution praised and admired and capitalism defended., but a vocal informed citizenry did not stop the bailout of wall street, it did not stop the bailout of detroit/mexicocanada and brazil. our constitutionally elected reps ignore us

my point again is we have been hijacked just how do we get it back?

btw i have heard that jefferson felt the constitution should be rewritten every generation like every 18 years.  he did not seem to think that the original could foresee all the changes that would occur across generations

  • Tue, Dec 23, 2008 - 05:52pm

    #13

    Aaron M

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    Re: Government and Capitalism

Npeykani,

Several concepts you’re presenting here are personal issues that are specific to you.
For example, feeling forgotten – what exactly do you mean? Since when is it the Governments job to remember you?

To the government, you’re a number. Nothing else. You never will be anything more. So comparing "heartless corperate structures" as a "bad" alternative doesn’t make much sense.

This mentality is indicitive of a "entitlement" society.
There is absolutely no consideration given to the ideal that "heartless corperate structures" MUST compete – they are granted contracts based on affordability and service. Governments are NOT. They are created by bureaucrats who have an inflationary effect on the size of the government. This creates MORE dilution of social services and precludes any sort of establishment that will feel the need to "remember you".

Bigger government – or government in general is NOT the answer. A socialist government will no more remember you than the present one. More regulations can’t make people care about you, and more "officials" will only serve to further confuse the convoluted state that government has found itself in.

  • Tue, Dec 23, 2008 - 06:01pm

    #12

    Aaron M

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    Re: Government and Capitalism

[quote]btw i have heard that jefferson felt the constitution should be rewritten every generation like every 18 years. he did not seem to think that the original could foresee all the changes that would occur across generations [/quote] Kinda goes against the concept of "inaliable" rights. The Constitution was constructed to allow ratification, but I don’t buy Jefferson wanting it ‘rewritten’. That sounds like post modern liberalist interpretation. [quote]i have heard the constitution praised and admired and capitalism defended., but a vocal informed citizenry did not stop the bailout of wall street, it did not stop the bailout of detroit/mexicocanada and brazil. our constitutionally elected reps ignore us [/quote] Why would you try and tie ignorant politicians to the constitution and capitalism? Those issues are entirely seperate and have nothing to do with one another. On the issue of being hijacked, we have two options – evict the corrupt elements with one of three boxes: 1. Jury box 2. Soap box 3. Cartridge box That is how our republic was intended to work. Society today lacks the motivation and interest to do anything for itself. I imagine we’ll see the old adage from Communist Russia come into play, the fish rots from the head down.

The second is to simply allow it to collapse or morph into something more oppressive and less desirable.

  • Tue, Dec 23, 2008 - 07:12pm

    #14

    NLP

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    Re: Government and Capitalism

Aaron,

It is interesting to personify government.  It is done often.  I hear it every day in my work life as citizens rant about issues wanting someone or something to fix their problems— pointing to government as if there is a thing there to hold accountable when what they are really asking for is an actual HUMAN BEING in a representational position of the government to do something to address issues.

In this, it is all personal Aaron.  On a brotherhood sisterhood level— it is all personal.  You call this entitlement.  I call it true representational government. 

I do not hold a private corporation to the same measure.  In this light I understand Joe’s first professor— the one I know will cut my hand off to get my marbles is EXACTLY the kind I transact business with every day.  But my government?  I want it "staffed" by fellow citizens who CARE, THINK, and ASSIST me in keeping my marbles if that is my goal.

The whole point is where has this representation gone?  Joe asserts corporations now staff the government.  Rather than representing the public interest, government is representing private interest. The question posed is, as citizens what if anything are we going to do about it? 

You conclude our choices are to take action at the jury box, soap box, or cartridge box. I guess the ballot box– the one which remains our most important choice is a non-option for you. I believe it remains our most effect tool. 

As I indicated, if I am feeling forgotten, and my neighbors feel forgotten, the next "staffer" I elect will be the one who remembers me. Doing this in my local election will be my most immediate course of action.

  • Tue, Dec 23, 2008 - 07:54pm

    #15

    Aaron M

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    Re: Government and Capitalism

Npeykani,
You said,
[quote]But my government? I want it “staffed” by fellow citizens who CARE, THINK, and ASSIST me in keeping my marbles if that is my goal. [/quote]

I totally agree with you. We’re on the “exact” same page here. I believe government locally should be liberal and preoccupied with matters of community, and government federally should be extremely conservative.

Our local issues are, beyond a doubt, our most important, and this will continue to become more clear as things get worse federally.

At any rate, I don’t believe we’ll see government staffed by the true “representitive” until we have a collapse.

If I were to magically assume executive powers, my first move would be to abolish the “professional Politician”, and return it to a compensatory position.

When a representitive was finished with their political business, they go back to their normal job in their community. Hopefully, this would return politics to a sense of duty and commitment to community than to a gravy train job.

Cheers!

  • Tue, Dec 23, 2008 - 08:46pm

    #16

    joe bender

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    Re: Government and Capitalism

"There is absolutely no consideration given to the ideal that "heartless
corperate structures" MUST compete – they are granted contracts based
on affordability and service."

aaron please explain this in terms of bechtel and halliburton and a whole host of corporations owned by our government officials. ah perhaps it lies in the ideal that heartless corporate structures must compete. just as an ideal government should protect the citizens of the country within the framework of the constitution

  • Tue, Dec 23, 2008 - 08:58pm

    #17
    emdiaz

    emdiaz

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    Re: Government and Capitalism

     I do not know about representative working for free because here in Miami they do not think they make enough and they get too many “favors from friends” besides the money that the actually steal.  I do not know which is better but they should be in power for not more than 8 years and not get anything else after that.  If they what to serve their country after that they can do some charity work or if they belief in something they can do it for free because they believe is in their community best interest and their best interest too.

  • Tue, Dec 23, 2008 - 09:10pm

    #18

    joe bender

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    Re: Government and Capitalism

"There have been many proposals for substantial change to the Constitution.
Thomas Jefferson himself was wary of the power of the dead over the living in
the form of an unchanging Constitution. To ensure that each generation have a
say in the framework of the government, he proposed that the Constitution, and
each one following it, expire after 19 or 20 years"

the above aaron is from usconstitution.net i will go to the library and get jeffersons writings if you need further evidence against

  "That sounds like post modern liberalist interpretation"

and as for going against inalienable rights you will have to explain that one to me as life liberty and the pursuit of happiness can certainly allow for people to rewrite the terms of their agreements. if you are accusing me of post modern liberal interpretation PLEASE do your homework i dont have the time or the inclination to do it for you.

it is a shame you are missing the point of my post you are an intelligent person but it would seem dogma triumphs again.

but at least you are proposing some solutions

1. Jury box 2. Soap box 3. Cartridge box 

my question then becomes which are YOU  choosing?

i am very careful to take the advice of swami beyondananda " be very careful grasshopper or your dogma will get run over by your karma"

  • Tue, Dec 23, 2008 - 09:55pm

    #19
    Headless

    Headless

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    Re: Government and Capitalism

As for solutions and the tools and frameworks they are composed of: Can anyone name a country that seems to be functioning as we would have ours function post reform?

What are the aspects of that system that stand out in your mind?

I am really asking these questions; they are not rhetorical.

NZO

  • Tue, Dec 23, 2008 - 11:06pm

    #20

    Aaron M

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    Posts: 790

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    Re: Government and Capitalism

Emdiaz,

I’m not proposing that they work for free – merely that they are not paid or employed as full time public servants.
Terms of office should, and did in the past, include pay for time away, expenses while away and other monetary compensations. There should be a reward for service. But not to the tune of a $200,000 per annum retirement.

Joe2baba,

To your first comment, Haliburton and Bechtel being owned by the government is exactly the kind of corruption I’m talking about. Corperatism isn’t the solution, but it isn’t the problem either. The individuals running these organizations are corrupt, oligarichal types who have no respect for any system of government. The same type of corruption was evident in Russia, before the collapse of the USSR. Switching our system of bureaucracy is tantamount to "switching horses mid stream". We’re not THAT far into this experiment in free society.

To the Jefferson quote;

Jefferson Also said "The tree of liberty must be refreshed, from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

So shall we grab the cartridge box?
His concepts are a useful guide, but certainly not absolute, and I believe this may be "out of context". Further examination is in order.

Either way, he has a very solid reputation of consistancy with regards to the inaliable freedoms of the first five amendments of the constitution, and such is well documented. Beyond this, The rest HAS been rewritten (and in some cases addendums added), so I’m not entirely sure how we’re not doing this.
If you consider an obscure quote that you found using google "doing my homework for me", cut the condescention. I’ll not get into cutting personal remarks. I don’t know every quote ever spoken, and neither do you, so lets share information instead of throw it at one another.

Anyway, Cheers! I appreciate you sharing that information.

Aaron

PS – my preferred method of change is using information and due legal process. I’m, nor will I ever advocate a violent revoltuon. We have criminals serving in our government, but they are the culprits, not our system as a whole.

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