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Government and Capitalism

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  • Mon, Dec 22, 2008 - 08:09pm

    #1

    joe bender

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    Government and Capitalism

when i first became a real estate broker i was given a book to read called" winning through intimidation" i believe the author was robert rimmer.

it is a brilliant treatise on business. he posits that in business you will run into three professors in the business world.

the business world functions with its own set of rules and it is nothing more than the law of the jungle. he learned this through the school of hard knocks.

professor number one——-you have a hand full of marbles and professor number one wants them. he tells you he wants them and tells you he will get them whatever it takes, even if it means cutting your hand off at the wrist.

professor number two……..same scenario. professor number two covets your marbles but will use a more nuanced approach. 

he will become your friend. he will get you to trust him. all the while he will have one objective in mind ……..he wants your marbles.

professor number three………professor number number three would like to have your marbles but has no plan to get them. it just turns out that somehow he ends up with them.

my question dear readers is which one you would prefer to do business with?

see correct answer below.

i have been on this site a long time and read it just about everyday(one day i hope to have a life) i have learned a great deal and it has occurred to me that the matrix we are functioning in is a business/government partnership. an llc if you will. there is a senior partner and a junior partner. business being the senior partner and gevernment the junior partner. i dont see it as fasism as i understand that system as being the control of business by government. i actually see the matrix as the exact opposite.

government is now under the complete control of business. i consider the halls of congress the greatest free marketplace in the world. there is not one thing that cannot be bought and sold there. ( even wooden toy arrows) i consider this the logical outcome of capitalism.. i view it that way because of the golden rule " he who has the gold makes the rules" our government is awash in money provided by lobbyists. legislation is written by lobbyists and passed on to the members of congress specifically senior members who sit on important committees.  as one example of how our government has been hijacked by business one need look no further than the war in iraq. there was a time when there was a thing called kp (kitchen police). this function was performed by military personnel. it is now performed by private contractors who "cater" food services to our military. virtually every function in our military now has a private enterprise component.even the basic task of fighting a war is being outsourced to private contractors ie. blackwater. this trend has been accelerating at a breathtaking pace in the last 8 years. our national security apparatus has experienced the very same process. as a result it has become necessary to have a war on terror and actual land wars. our economy simply demands it. companies from pharmaceutical and farm commodity corporations to boeing, lockheed and raytheon etal  are increasingly dependent on a more than close relationship with government. effectively private enterprise has hijacked our government not  the other way around.

there is much debate here on different economic systems such as austrian school economics. there is much complaining about our government from two opposing sides ………….too much regulation and not enough regulation. there is lots of talk about conspiracies and there are those who decry conspiracies.  in a recent podcast and post on this site it was stated that more or less regulation is not the answer. that compliance is the issue and that our problem is systemic. my own position is that yes the government is rapidly failing to serve the people of this country, but we have no control over private enterprise. our only option is to attempt to get our government back. there are many functions of government which it is in the best interest of the citizens to remain public rather than privatizing the. privatization has been wreaking havoc around the world under the auspices of the world bank/ im. recently the people of bolivia rose up against there government to keep bechtel from supplying there water. prices had skyrocketed 300% when the system was privatize.

if our system is the problem then what do we do?  chris himself points this out in the crash course. if we change the system then how do we do that? what is the purpose of getting everyone to watch the crash course? what action is it chris or anyone else is proposing? we will soon see tens of thousands visiting this site daily, will there be an articulate dialog that is solution based or will we be mired in endless petty arguments and going off on tangents which will keep us in the disempowered state which allows those in power to continue to game the "system"

 

the correct answer is there is no correct answer.

my answer (preference) is  i would choose prof number one. ………..he is the only one you know whose agenda is absolutely clear .

 

  • Mon, Dec 22, 2008 - 08:16pm

    #2

    Chris Martenson

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    Re: Government and Capitalism

Hi Joe – I "decapitalized" your headline.

I hope you don’t mind.  

One more agreement I’d like to put in place for the site is that we refrain from using deliberate attention grabbing devices (as that can quickly escalate on a board) and I consider ALLCAPS to be one such device.

Best,
Chris Martenson

  • Mon, Dec 22, 2008 - 08:26pm

    #3

    joe bender

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    Re: Government and Capitalism

no problemo

  • Mon, Dec 22, 2008 - 09:05pm

    #4

    WhoKnew

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    Re: Government and Capitalism

I think at this juncture we are way past the tipping point, peak oil and high world population likely mean a sustainable system wont be found or introduced until after a significant period of readjustment has taken place. 

 

  • Mon, Dec 22, 2008 - 09:07pm

    #5

    NLP

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    Re: Government and Capitalism

I’m glad you brought this up– the question of privatization for I have been seriously questioning its usefulness.  Mish recently called for more privatization for California as a way to fix the mess we’re in out here.  This makes me shudder to think. As for example look at the prison system complex– I know the guards aren’t any happier; the books are no better balanced; and actual rehabilitation is and remains a joke.  All privatizing has done is taken some of the financial obligation off the state allowing for that pot of money to be poorly mismanaged somewhere else and leaving the consumer/user disabled to advocate for reform or ask questions. 

I cannot think of one instance where privatization is the better choice.   I think the point is not replacing one large, heartless corporate structure (govt or otherwise) for another.  But rather break them down into smaller, more accountable and manageable entities.  I think Jim Kunstler is right on when he says smaller, local-driven economies and interests should be where we are headed. I believe this is a good place to start.  This is why the Crash Course works well right now on the planet.

I am feeling forgotten.  My family feels forgotten.  My neighbors feel forgotten.  For as far as that sentiment reaches consistently, we are beginning to embrace our neighborhood/community and work for our collective good. If I hear one more time how a bank exec. received another bonus from TARP funds while WAMU jacks my credit card interest rate up for no reason other than I MIGHT become a problem— it makes my blood boil.

NOTE to Damnthematrix:  I know, I know…  Just stop paying all debt and bring them all to their knees.  I keep hearing you say that and the more I hear it the more attractive it becomes.

 

  • Mon, Dec 22, 2008 - 09:26pm

    #6

    DavidLachman

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    Re: Government and Capitalism

Hi Joe,

Good question. What should we do? What should we promote? I think this is the question you are asking? Are we at a point were we can figure this out?

As I recall from my time at university there were 4 major forms of social organization: Markets, Community, Associations, and Government. It seems, after an overdependence on Markets, we are switching to an over reliance on Government. It seems there is a place for Community and Associations, and some kind of balance between these 4 different forms where we take the best of each, or find the appropriate place for each. But really, one of the questions we have to face is what kind of society we want to have given the facts of the crash course provides? We have to have a vision of where we want to go in order to figure out how to get there. Is there a consensus on that yet?

It seems that a society that is more local, less energy intensive is something we have to face. But even more important, the values we have as a society need to change to make this transition be less destructive. In the USA we seem to be out of practice asking ourselves what is important, and instead are taught to accept the values of consumerism without consideration of its implications or whether it is really satisfying.

I for one believe that the changes that have begun can be positive for individuals and society and the world at large. But the changes need to be embraced and our values need to be challanged for the changes to be experienced as positive. I’m not sure what a national agenda might entail, but I know that for me, developing my local community is a place I can put my energy right away.

I’m still trying to figure out what kind of world I want to work toward. It is easier for me to see the potential on the local level of how this new world can function in a constructive way where the best of what has been learned in the age of oil and credit can be put to use in a sustainable world. What is your vision of where we need to go and how to get there?

Thanks for bringing this up Joe.

  • Mon, Dec 22, 2008 - 09:37pm

    #7

    ckessel

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    Re: Government and Capitalism

[quote=WhoKnew]

I think at this juncture we are way past the tipping point, peak oil and high world population likely mean a sustainable system wont be found or introduced until after a significant period of readjustment has taken place. 

 

[/quote]

I agree WhoKnew. The only sustaiable system is going to be what can be worked out on a relatively local level.

 I had an interesting conversation with my mother who just finished the crash course. She was raised in the Rocky Mountains and is the only person I have known who grew up in a truly sustainable lifestyle.

She learned to grow and can food from her mother, raise and manage livestock from her father, and be frugal with her lifestyle. She recalled helping her brother, father and neighbors harvest ice from the river in the winter and store it in sawdust so they would have a cold storage for the summer. And she helped raise, cut and stack hay for the animals in winter. She rode her horse to school as a student and later did the same when she returned to teach in the same one room school house as a young adult. 

Then the war came and she was the first woman in her state to join the Navy in a group that would become known as the Waves. She opted for the new "modern lifestyle" and after the war, stayed in California albeit in a rural part of the state, and raised a family into a bright and shining new future.

She finished the Crash Course shaking her head and said to me "we know not what we have done to the future generations" and recalled one of the great benefits of her younger years was that of working together with all of the neighboring farms and ranches to help each other out.That was not a part of the "bright new future"

That is what we all must get to work on in a big way. We need local control and initiative and working together to get through the forest just down the road. That will be the greatest value in spreading the Crash Course message. Local leaders, businessmen, and residents all need to have a major awareness change if we are to act in time.

Coop

  • Tue, Dec 23, 2008 - 04:44am

    #8
    GDon

    GDon

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    Re: Government and Capitalism

The ideal “government”, and an economic system to match, was created – once.

 

In a quest for “where now?”, this ideal should be front and center –

 

Follow the United States Constitution.   

 This unique philosophical and political prescription, and the earlier documents recorded in it’s intention, conception and execution, including the Declaration of Independence, and the Bill of Rights, were the perigee of The Enlightment intended to create a  system of societal governance heretofore unknown in human history.   

These documents, and the philosophy they inferred, intended, as far as humanly possible, to act as a deductive foundation, for a context under which more detailed issues of conflict could be resolved. 

 

Some historical perspective (and a soapbox moment, if you will) –

 

In 1770’s America, for the first time in human history, instead of the subjugation of "the individual",  to “a king”, “a ruler”, “a tribe”, “a mob”, “a collective”, “a state”, “the earth”, etc., each individual was considered instead, a self-ruling and free sovereign in and of him/herself.

 

A person’s actions (i.e., freedom or liberty), and the fruit of those actions (i.e., property), were to be his/her own jurisdiction, insofar as it didn’t interfere with the rights of others to the same (i.e., no individual has more “rights” than any other).   

 

As such, this philosophical recipe was an official blending of the golden rule, with the philosophical given, that individuals deserve a life of freedom, and to pursue that which makes them happy.

 

It was made clear, in the Declaration of Independence, that these individual rights were NOT given by a king, a ruler, a tribe, a collective or a state – i.e., "a government".    Instead, they originate from as high a source as possible, i.e., they are ordained "by the Creator". 

 

THIS premise for governance was unique in human history.

 

I submit that any other system away from this ideal, would be a step backward, and a step toward a new Dark Ages. 

 Further, I submit that we have already taken many steps backwards, by straying further and further, over the last 200+ years, away from this ideal. Indeed,  to preclude the possibility that a government (again – a tribe, mob, king or ruler) might once again grow to become the final “provider” in society (whether a collective or singular dictator), it is interesting to note the exact wording of what “rights” consist of in the Declaration of Independence –  “…they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”  In other words, individuals did not have a “right of happiness” per se, for that might be misinterpreted, but rather, the pursuit of that happiness.    For what if my happiness requires a lavish apartment?  Or a large SUV?   or  a big retirement fund?, etc., etc.    Do I have a “right” to it?  If so, who is to provide it?   Who’s actions and property should it be taken from?    Further, can I have a special “right” which others do not have?   The Founding Fathers recognized that to include a “right” to happiness (explicitly) would be an open invitation to return to earlier systems, when a subjegated individual was parochially dependent upon “a government” for granting his life and rights.   Note also, that the DOI also goes on to circumscribe the strict limit on the one moral function of “a government”: “…That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed….”  

This was UNIQUE.  The Bill of Rights, is a listing of 10 such explicit rights reserved to individual sovereigns, and they are also the first Amendments to the Constitution.    In this regard,, noting their own intellectual limitations, where the Founders felt they might leave open room for future (unforseen) conflict, they constructed the subsequent limitation to fall squarely on the power of government, and NOT the rights (and freedom) of individuals.  They were explicit in stating, both in the Bill of Rights, and in the Constitution, (as the 9th Amendment) that “…the enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people….”.      

 

Simply put, in gray areas related to individual rights, those (unidentified) rights do NOT belong to “the Government”.   So from a practical perspective how does “Government” secure those rights?  A government has a monopoly on the use of justifiable force.    Securing those rights against internal encroachments (criminals), external encroachments (military) and government encroachments (tyranny) was considered the highest and only moral use of political force (i.e., guns). So what of Capitalism? “Capitalism” as defined at the same time as the DOI, Bill of Rights and US Constitution, was intended to reflect adherence to the governing principles above  i.e., free individuals, – i.e., necessitating individuals free to their action and the fruits of that action – i.e., necessitating free individuals with their (private) property.     Free to trade, with each individual bartering according to his own sense of value and valuation, in interaction with others, each to pursue his own happiness.   I submit that is NOT what exists or is practiced in America today. Through government force, privileged groups (not individuals) are now consistently provided with more “rights” than other “groups”, and many (most?)  in “government” now consider the Constitution as an archaic relic.    The concept of “group” rights were never a Constitutional construct (albeit the horror and total injustice of slavery and suffrage – i.e, the individual rights of women and African Americans notwithstanding. ) On economics and economic “systems” specifically, I submit that it is not “Capitalism” in the historic construct, that has created our current malady. Rather,  the current economic state, reflects a monetary system protected by government monopoly, for a privileged Banking minority, with more “rights” than exist for others (try running a fractional-reserve, i.e., check-kiting scheme yourself – would you escape a charge of criminal theft of property?  Would it not be fraud? )    As Mussolini literally defined it, the current American system is more akin to corporate fascism. It is bad enough that “the government” would institute such “Ponzi-style” schemes as a “group-privelige” (like Social Security), but for the government to secure “special rights”, via force of monopoly, to a private group of super-wealthy internationalists – i.e., Banking – is that “Capitalism”?    Further, they are financed and  provided with a government-imposed monopoly on issuance of the only “legal tender” in America, in conflict with the wording and intention of the US Constitution.    No – This is NOT “Capitalism” as the Founders envisioned it. Instead, discarding individual rights for group rights, the system has become akin to one dog pack against another (right vs left, Republican vs Democrat, blah blah blah), each scrambling for their share of property “meat” confiscated at the expense of free individuals.   Depending on which of the formalized 2 “political groups” now institutionalized, whether for foreign wars, or for “entitlements”, a privately-run monetary system, in conflict with the US Constitution, has fostered a mountain of growing exponential debt and usury interest. Financed and secured through confiscation from individuals, applied with government force on the average American, it is now insured as a working system.   This “capitalist” system (not) now consists of self-serving government officials, acting in concert with a monopolistic banking system, who benefit each other with either official office, or the interest riches to be paid on this “borrowing”.   This is a fraudulent dupe of the many, by the (government-protected) and beneficiating few – pure and simple. Mussolini must be laughing in his grave. Whether by design, mathematical limitation, or ineptitude, this monetary system is about to bring a desperate condition upon the United States.  The future will be even more challenging for everyone.    The current debt, to be paid as real and legitimate debt, by the toil of average Americans, will soon enough be be a mandate, to benefit for a set of private financiers and foreign lenders.  With the potential for an increase in societal chaos, the US Constitution will be a target for tattering. As for “Governments and Capitalism”, now, more than ever, the US Constitution, which can only be served by free individuals in unfettered markets,  points the way. Be careful then, what you wish for, whether the perceived “need” be some vision of “sustainability”, or because we “prefer” that others not “use so much energy”, or some other mandate, lest it be used by the current power-structure, at the expense of history’s greatest experiment in individual freedom. The French wanted freedom from the economic burden imposed by “a King” in 1789.   Rather than realizing what the Founding Fathers of America created, they got Napoleon, war, further debt, and famine.  The Dark Ages are not as far distant as we might imagine. 

  • Tue, Dec 23, 2008 - 02:19pm

    #9

    Aaron M

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    Re: Government and Capitalism

GDon,

Well said.

  • Tue, Dec 23, 2008 - 03:12pm

    #10

    DrKrbyLuv

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

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    Posts: 354

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    Re: Government and Capitalism

[quote=GDon]

Follow the United States Constitution.   

 This unique philosophical and political
prescription, and the earlier documents recorded in it’s intention,
conception and execution, including the Declaration of Independence,
and the Bill of Rights, were the perigee of The Enlightment intended to create a  system of societal governance heretofore unknown in human history.  

[/quote]

Well said! We have the solutions and we have the model to make this country free and prosperous. Unfortunately, not enough of our citizens understand yet alone prescribe to the tenets of the precious documents you mentioned – a national handbook if you will. In a free society it is vitally important that the citizenry remain informed, vigilant and vocal. Due diligence is our patriotic duty and fiduciary responsibility.

The greatest failure of our nation doesn’t rest with the government and it doesn’t rest with capitalism; it rests with the people who have become complacent and uninformed. In absence of a fundamental understanding they become reactionary and are easily mislead. Many are distracted chasing spurious bogeymen like business, lobbyists, conspiracy theorists and political parties instead of employing the lost art of critical thinking and insisting on the fidelity to our rule of law (constitution).

[quote=joe2baba]it has occurred to me that the matrix we are functioning in is a
business/government partnership. an llc if you will. there is a senior
partner and a junior partner. business being the senior partner and
gevernment the junior partner. i dont see it as fasism as i understand
that system as being the control of business by government. i actually
see the matrix as the exact opposite.
[/quote]

"that this nation, under God, shall
have a new birth of freedom — and that government of the people, by the people,
for the people, shall not perish from the earth" Abraham Lincoln

[quote=joe2baba]what action is it chris or anyone else is proposing? we will soon see
tens of thousands visiting this site daily, will there be an articulate
dialog that is solution based or will we be mired in endless petty
arguments and going off on tangents[/quote]
Chris, GDon, me and many others have offered many salient solutions...
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