Getting Out (FSN Follow-up)
Don’t know Guardian. In our marina (south Turkey) we have about 5 US boats, same for Canadian, Aussie and 4 New Zealander’s. The majority are German, with French a further 2nd. Great group in total.
The cruising lifestyle can be a very low cost option for ‘pulling the plug’, even if one has kids to home-school.
Good thread, J
If cost is a priority, in addition to the many other factors Sovereign Man evaluates in terms of a good “2nd flag” or relocation, he recommends…
– if looking in Asia: Malaysia (as good of a relocation program as Panama) and of course Thailand, both of which he says are far more stable, delightful, developed than some think. He recounted his recent health emergency in Thailand and it sounded like utopia…unlike waiting in a US emergency room for hours, filling out endless paperwork, and being treated like a widget, the doctors go to your house, you can have a team of nurses attending to your every need for less than the price of a dental checkup in the US, etc.
– if looking in S America: Colombia (little known secret since the media keeps Americans terrified of the country; Medellin is supposedly a “perfect climate” city) and Uruguay
He recommends Panama as the best overall, but it’s not super cheap unless you get away from the city and avoid expat towns like Boquete.
With due respect to the comments from “Richard in Buenos Aires,” I thought you might be interested to hear from a real expert on living in Argentina—Fernando Aguirre.
If you don’t know, Mr. Aguirre, also known as ferfal, wrote a book, “The Modern Survival Manual: Surviving the Economic Collapse” and also runs a blog (http://ferfal.blogspot.com/) that chronicles his experiences as an Argentinian following the country’s collapse in Dec 2001 to the present, and, how he has personally dealt with living in a country as it descends from first world to third world status.
They are both well worth reading, especially for anyone how might think of following “Richard in Buenos Aires.”
I excerpt below a few of ferfal’s comments on the topic of “relocating” (http://ferfal.blogspot.com/search/label/relocating):
My friend, stay in USA, that’s what I would do. Lets not get paranoid either, there’s always something to worry about, but the important thing is having alternatives.
As for plan B and C. There’s places in Europe where the socialist and communist BS isn’t flying anymore and there’s hope in the future. For South America, I’d go with Uruguay or Chile.
”Move to Argentina and live like a king” “Move to Mendoza, the ultimate survival retreat!” As we say here, its not gold everything that shines. The exchange rate is good, yes, but life is still pretty expensive here. A report not long ago showed how it can be more expensive to live in Bs As than to live in Miami. As for the inner provinces, its’ cheaper to live there, San Luis is specially cheap, but they have lots of problems, many you wouldn’t even think of in a place like USA, like medieval times politics where the governor rules like a king. So while it can be done, its not some lost paradise.
Argentine people are usually very friendly towards tourists. There’s a growing anti-American propaganda being spread by our petty government since we felt to unquestionable 3rd would status with the K regime (“K”, that’s the way the Kirchenr family refers to itself, as surreal as it may sound we even have “K Youth” …. Yes… comparisons with other extremist “xx youths”.. lets better talk about something else)
Anyway, as I was saying, the K regime is pretty close to Castro, Chaves, Evo Morales and some other wonderful human beings, so they outspokenly promote hatred towards Americans and the American culture in general.
But remember what I said about the slow slide, and about Argentina once being a rather prosperous nation? Well, it’s true. And there’s still some of that cosmopolite attitude left. The hatred hasn’t settled yet. Maybe the next generation will be brainwashed by the K, if they manage to stay in power that long. But for now the people of Argentina openly welcome tourists, specially those from 1st world countries. People coming here from other 3rd world countries are sometimes less welcomed, given the already high unemployment rate.
There’s not much you should worry about, other than the things I often talk about regarding security.
If you make the mistake of going into a wrong part of town, understand its different from American bad neighborhood. Go into Villa 31 by mistake for example and they’ll swarm like rats from the building to rob you. You have to be more careful generally speaking, for obvious reasons.
It would be interesting if Jim Puplava would read this book and interview ferfal on his show.
osteoporosis contango bang dango
I like the idea of living on a boat. Almost bought a 48 foot cabin cruiser to live on several years ago. I’m thinking a sailboat would be a better choice now…?
I’ve heard that even though you leave the U.S. you still have to pay taxes on income for ten years. Is that true? There is so much I don’t know.
I’ve heard that even though you leave the U.S. you still have to pay taxes on income for ten years. Is that true? There is so much I don’t know.
No, that’s no longer true. Actually, it still is for people who expatriated prior to June 2008. But after June 2008 the 10-year rule is replaced by the Rangel exit tax. See http://www.nestmann.com for info on expatriation.
As for the boat, keep in mind that even before the economic collapse, cruising sailors often found it necessary to carry firearms (sometimes legally, sometimes not) to deal with the very real threat of piracy. As the economy gets worse, the size of the safe-from-piracy cruising grounds will shrink considerably.
Also, having lived aboard myself, I would say that it’s something you really have to love for the sake of being a boat nut. It’s a lot of work.
Sorry, can’t help on the tax advice, but one the question; sailboat verses motor boat, well there really isn’t anything to debate 🙂
Peak oil – no problem, the wind is free. The sailboat cruises at the perfect trolling speed, about 6 knots. Just right for tuna and mai-mai.
Cruisers move from gas station to gas station, sailboats traverse the world.
FSN released their mid-week show on Wednesday featuring Mark Ehrman, the author of Getting Out, a book about the present subject. I really appreciate Jim Puplava for doing this interview after I suggested it, but I have to say I’m embarassed to have recommended this guy without reading the book first. After making that suggestion I did order the book, and found it mildly disappointing. The fact that Ehrman’s country-by-country analysis completely ignored the question of whether each country has a territorial tax doctrine but does include comments about the availability of marijuana in each country says a lot about his priorities.
I found the interview even more unimpressive than the book. Jim tried hard to lead him to the pertinent topics but he didn’t have much to say. I thought his treatment of expatriation and dual citizenship was both misinformed and somewhat ignorant, and he didn’t discuss economic citizenship at all. The other guy I recommended (Mark Nestmann, http://www.nestmann.com) would have been a much better choice for the FSN audience, IMHO.
You talked of the real estate costs in Hong Kong, what about Singapore, say for a rental?
My destination is Thailand.
Having lived there a few years i appreciate the laid back lifestyle more and more. You can choose Bangkok for a metropolis that rivals many other cities in the west. It has everything you expect from a big city + its own unique features. Hospitals, restaurants, movie theaters, parks, it has it all. It is busy, disorganized, vibrant. Living costs are compared to western countries low. Moving there will give you a better livestyle. You do however need to take care of yourself. The freedom that is enjoyed there needs you to be ‘street’ wise. Something many people never learned. If you’re willing to learn that you will have a very pleasant stay. If you keep on reminding people that in your own country everything is much beter organized, think again what it has cost you in other parts of your live. I have met many people from a lot of different countries and 99% of them would stay if their finances would allow them. I guess people that already have the courage to travel to distant places and are not afraid for new experiences and change will find it exhilerating and eye opening.
After a few years Bangkok i moved to a more quiet place. About 400km south of Bangkok. It is a small town on the east coast. A big change, lots of room, more community as in a few weeks you already know a lot of people. If you take the effort to speak some Thai it is much appreciated and making friends becomes more easy. Having a local market where you can buy fresh foods like vegetables, many kinds of fruit, fish, chicken all locally grown. Having rented a house there for a few months we knew that it would be our place to call ‘home’. We still have to build so in the meantime we still live and work in Bangkok. Occasionally, as right now, we are in The Netherlands for family and friends. In october we go back.
Being married with a Thai woman and having 2 dual nationality children, staying in Thailand is easy. for people without family ties it is more difficult. However there are a number of possibilities to get a visa. If you’re 50 years or older a retirement visa is the best option. Can be extended every year and for that you need around 800.000 baht on a bankaccount OR 65.000 baht monthly income OR a combination of both totaling at least 800.000. 1 US$ = 32 baht, 1 euro = 42 bath.
There are many other options all with there own requirements. None of them are difficult if you are serious about living in Thailand,
As Thailand is compared to western countries cheap, foreigners are not allowed to buy land. For some this is an obstacle and trying to circumvent this law is daily practice for a lot of lawyers. As we all (should) know is that once a developer and a legal office are working together there is a potential for conflict of interests. To me it is unbelievable what some people do to get ownership while it is clearly forbidden. Someday it will hurt them. Following the law and staying within its ‘spirit’ is easy and it actually is a lot cheaper too.
Renting is an obvious choice, there is so much for rent that you will always find something you like and within your budget. Most popular with the landlords are rolling 3 year contracts. These are favorable for the landlord as it does not need to be registered and usually the contracts have to be renegotiated on renewal. it all depends on the landlord, but is that not true everywhere. For renting a condo or house with the intent not to stay there for a long time this is a good start to at least settle down for a moment and start exploring the area. I found out that being at least 6 months i a place gives you the time to find out if the area is to your liking. The ability to move easy is very important as this will give you the freedom to find something that suits your needs. Once you find such a place it is time to look for something more permanent. A condominium is the only thing you can own freehold so for a lot of people this is what they do. Others don’t mind to keep renting and that also is possible. However if you really find something you like and it involves land you have two options. One is a usufruct, the other a lease. There are differences but in practice the difference that counts is that with a usufruct it can be for ‘live’. A lease can be maximum 30 years, NO exceptions!
Renewals in lease contracts are not strong as they are not ‘real’ rights. A renewal written in a contract is a personal agreement. Once land is sold or inherited by someone else this personal agreement has no more meaning.
Thai culture is rich and a lot of it is connected to Buddhism. Not a religion in itself but it is practiced like one. If you are into Buddhism you will have lots to explore and learn. Being agnostic myself i find that Buddhism is very open and free to people with other believes. I never experienced anything mean or otherwise rejecting someone because of what they choose to believe. A lot of the culture is also rooted in much older believes and traditional rituals can still be found. Thailand however is changing and more of these older traditions disappear as younger generations are moving away from it, trying perhaps to copy their western counterparts. This is more true in Bangkok then the more rural places.
My own intentions are to build a house on the land we already own, and probably use most of the land to build up a sustainable garden. I am however not experienced so i will have to rely on locals and a lot of internet searches to educate myself. 🙂
To connect this to CM’s crash course, i found that Thailand is an ideal location for the simpler live that we all are going to experience sooner or later. Local communities are still strong, food in abundance, you will never freeze to death :), and growing into a sustainable live is not that of a daunting task as energy needs are a lot lower. Combine that with friendly people, nice surroundings like mountains, islands and beaches and not forget a lot more Freedom and you have a good combination that is hard to beat.
If anyone wants to have some more information about Thailand you can always send me a pm, and i will be glad to help.
You talked of the real estate costs in Hong Kong, what about Singapore, say for a rental?[/quote]
Singapore real estate is definitely cheaper than Hong Kong, but not by all that much. I looked at a few nice apartments in the downtown area near Orchard Road, and they were quite pricey – US$4k/mo or so for a nice 2-3br place in a highrise. But I had the impression the rents came down considerably as you got out of the center of town.
One thing to keep in mind is that in both HK and Singapore, there are no closets! It’s a cultural thing – Asians seem to prefer free-standing wardrobes (i.e. furniture) to hold their clothes. So although there is usually a “shoe closet” near the entry door, bedrooms generally don’t have closets. Most relocated westerners end up converting the smallest bedroom in a flat into a large walk-in closet. The moral of the story is that you generally need one more bedroom than you think you do.