Future Tax Increase

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  • Thu, Jul 07, 2011 - 01:55am

    #21

    dshields

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    Useyerloaf wrote:dshields

[quote=Useyerloaf]

[quote=dshields]

I do not think we have a revenue problem, I think we have a spending problem.  I have never heard of the Fed Gov having a spending decrease after a revenue increase.  For many years the Fed Gov has always spent more than they have taken in.  At some point we have to draw a line and say we are not going to keep spending more and raising taxes more forever.  At some point if you keep raising taxes there will be an implosion as fair percentage of the people will no have enough money to meet their current obligations.  I think we should draw the line now.  We need to see real spending decreases.  For instance. the Dept of Education does not educate anybody as far as I know.  Why do we need a Fed Dept of Ed at all ?  If it actually does have some few useful functions, save those and cut the rest.  Free all the people back to the private sector where instead of being overhead they can be productive.  Stop the crazy wars.  That would save a aircraft carrier of money.  We can do it.  We just have to elect politicians with back bone.  Fed Gov spending could be cut say 25% without causing a revolution if we focus on stuff we really do not need.

 

 

[/quote]

 

Seeing how there has been nothing but tax cuts since the 1960’s, I can’t see how you think there is not a revenue problem. The top rate was 91% in the early 1960’s, it’s now down to a little more than a third of that now.

[/quote]

Surely the Fed Gov confiscating up to a third of our personal property every year is sufficient for every possible constitutional Fed Gov function.  A third is too much.  The gov should not consume a third of the resources of the country.  That is totally out of control.

 

  • Thu, Jul 07, 2011 - 02:28am

    #22

    dshields

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    Poet wrote: It’s just like a

[quote=Poet]

It’s just like a running a business or a family’s household expenses. When you face deficit, you have to do one or both of the following:

1. Increase income by earning more
and/or
2. Decrease expenses by spending less

Anyone who approaches addressing the deficit problem by envisioning only spending cuts (and some are even more delusional as to envision further tax cuts as well)… is delusional.

Especially delusional are the politicians who voted for all the extra spending and all the extra tax cuts, and now want to only work only on reducing spending.

The future deficit problem will have to be addressed by both spending cuts and tax increases, or it won’t be addressed at all.

Poet

[/quote]

I agree the politicians are delusional.  The very ones who get on TV crying about the deficit are the very ones that voted for the spending bills.  It seems crazy when you examine it in detail.  But, numbers are numbers and the politicians voted for the bills knowing that they could not be paid.  Look at Obamacare as a perfect example.  The is no way they are going to cut half a trillion from Medicare – it simply will not happen.  The deficits due to Obamacare out  in the future expand into a national financial catastrophe – and the dems voted it right in over th objections of the people they were elected to represent.  That is called tyranny.  It is an outrage.  The have gone against the people and done financially irresponsible things.  Now we are going to have to pay the price for their misbehavior.  It is infuriating.

The good part is many of the people have been watching over the last few years and there is a growing understanding in the general population that the politicians, dems and repubs, and made some amazingly large mistakes.  The 2010 midterm election results are an indication of this awaking.  The 2012 general election will continue this trend.  So if we can keep it together and not take a dive before Jan 20th 2013, we will be in a position to get government spending back in line with revenue.  We probably need a balanced budget amendment to the constitution that would phase in over some number of years – 5 to 10 years. 

I am actually not in favor of a balanced budget amendment but it has become clear that modern politicians are unable to control spending on their own.  If government spending was in line with revenue a lot of the negative issues we face today would simply evaporate.  We would be if not the strongest, then one of the strongest countries on earth.  There would be many benefits to having our finances under control.

No, we do not have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem.  I have never seen a case where a taxing authority reduced spending after a revenue increase.  It simply does not happen.  Half the population doesn’t pay fed income taxes.  That is broken also.  If one does not pay anything and receives things then one has no skin in the game and will vote for more free stuff forever.  Once 51% percent of the voting population, and we are almost there now, always votes for politician(s) who say they will give them more free stuff then it is over.  America will be over and we will collapse for sure – no doubt.  The collapse will be terrible and the very people who voted in the politicians that caused the collapse will be the people who suffer the worst.  The rich will move their money out to safe places, and probably themselves also, and just leave the rest of us to the disaster we ourselves caused.  If I was rich I would do the same thing.  It is the one hole in democracy that can bring a nation down – out of control spending due to the election of the wrong politicians due to the ignorance of the people.

 

  • Thu, Jul 07, 2011 - 02:35am

    #23

    Damnthematrix

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    The Roman Empire conquered the world

[quote=tictac1]

The Roman Empire conquered the world on a 1% tax rate, up to 3% in times of war.  [/quote]

Ah… but they weren’t using cruise missiles!

  • Thu, Jul 07, 2011 - 04:22am

    #24

    Travlin

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    You’re in good company

[quote=dshields]

Once 51% percent of the voting population, and we are almost there now, always votes for politician(s) who say they will give them more free stuff then it is over.

[/quote]

Dshields

Check this quote — and note the date.  You are in good company.

[quote=Alexis de Tocqueville]

The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.

Alexis de Tocqueville, 1835

[/quote]

Travlin 

  • Thu, Jul 07, 2011 - 04:26am

    #25
    Michael Frome

    Michael Frome

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    spending vs. revenue

Spending problem?  Revenue problem?  How about a “Theft problem”.  The US is in for big trouble on a fiscal basis, because there is absolutely no political stomach (or genuine widespread support from the electorate, for that matter) for even modest reductions in federal gov’t spending such as Ryan or Bowles/Simpson.  Yes, I said “modest”…the cuts they envisage don’t even approach being enough in my view.  Too many people who either “want theirs” or buy into the “social justice” tripe to justify removing consumer sovereignty in favor of government controlled defined benefits.  Add in the wider demographic and resource issues, and that is why I pay attention to folks like Dr. Martenson…I don’t see a way out.  I’m interested now only in navigating through the coming chaos as best as I can for me and mine – I have absolutely no remaining faith in any elected official, or most of the folks who voted them in, for that matter.

  • Fri, Jul 08, 2011 - 10:30pm

    #26

    dshields

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

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    badScooter

[quote=badScooter]

Spending problem?  Revenue problem?  How about a “Theft problem”.  The US is in for big trouble on a fiscal basis, because there is absolutely no political stomach (or genuine widespread support from the electorate, for that matter) for even modest reductions in federal gov’t spending such as Ryan or Bowles/Simpson.  Yes, I said “modest”…the cuts they envisage don’t even approach being enough in my view.  Too many people who either “want theirs” or buy into the “social justice” tripe to justify removing consumer sovereignty in favor of government controlled defined benefits.  Add in the wider demographic and resource issues, and that is why I pay attention to folks like Dr. Martenson…I don’t see a way out.  I’m interested now only in navigating through the coming chaos as best as I can for me and mine – I have absolutely no remaining faith in any elected official, or most of the folks who voted them in, for that matter.

[/quote]

Dude !!!  You are good.  I agree to the bone.  Over the last 2 years I have basically lost all confidence on the political capability of America.  We are simply unable to manage ourselves in a responsible manner and now we are going to pay the price for our misbehavior.  It is going to be very tough on the poor and working poor.

 

  • Fri, Jul 08, 2011 - 10:31pm

    #27

    dshields

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    Travlin

[quote=Travlin]

[quote=dshields]

Once 51% percent of the voting population, and we are almost there now, always votes for politician(s) who say they will give them more free stuff then it is over.

[/quote]

Dshields

Check this quote — and note the date.  You are in good company.

[quote=Alexis de Tocqueville]

The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.

Alexis de Tocqueville, 1835

[/quote]

Travlin 

[/quote]

Yep – looks bad.  Old dude was right.

  • Fri, Jul 08, 2011 - 11:18pm

    #28

    rhare

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    Even after collapse, things could get worse

[quote=badScooter]

I don’t see a way out.  I’m interested now only in navigating through the coming chaos as best as I can for me and mine – I have absolutely no remaining faith in any elected official, or most of the folks who voted them in, for that matter.

[/quote]

I agree that we are in for huge pain and really no way out other than collapse.  However, it’s still worth trying to educate people (even politicians) about what is happening, not to prevent what is coming, but so that we don’t go down an even darker road after a collapse.  It will be easy for someone to step in and promise to fix everything and scapegoat some selected class.  That generally always ends very badly – think Hitler. 

 

  • Sat, Jul 09, 2011 - 02:47am

    #29

    dshields

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    rhare wrote:badScooter

[quote=rhare]

[quote=badScooter]

I don’t see a way out.  I’m interested now only in navigating through the coming chaos as best as I can for me and mine – I have absolutely no remaining faith in any elected official, or most of the folks who voted them in, for that matter.

[/quote]

I agree that we are in for huge pain and really no way out other than collapse.  However, it’s still worth trying to educate people (even politicians) about what is happening, not to prevent what is coming, but so that we don’t go down an even darker road after a collapse.  It will be easy for someone to step in and promise to fix everything and scapegoat some selected class.  That generally always ends very badly – think Hitler. 

 

[/quote]

Good point.

  • Sat, Jul 09, 2011 - 02:47am

    #30

    dshields

    Status Gold Member (Offline)

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    rhare wrote:badScooter

[quote=rhare]

[quote=badScooter]

I don’t see a way out.  I’m interested now only in navigating through the coming chaos as best as I can for me and mine – I have absolutely no remaining faith in any elected official, or most of the folks who voted them in, for that matter.

[/quote]

I agree that we are in for huge pain and really no way out other than collapse.  However, it’s still worth trying to educate people (even politicians) about what is happening, not to prevent what is coming, but so that we don’t go down an even darker road after a collapse.  It will be easy for someone to step in and promise to fix everything and scapegoat some selected class.  That generally always ends very badly – think Hitler. 

 

[/quote]

Good point.

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