Food and shelter

Login or register to post comments Last Post 6216 reads   37 posts
Viewing 10 posts - 21 through 30 (of 37 total)
  • Sun, Feb 22, 2009 - 05:17pm

    #21
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 31 2017

    Posts: 1583

    count placeholder0

    Re: Food and shelter

Pir8don, wish I was in Oz. I hear you about the natural environment. It is hard for people to understand who have never been still in the woods. I practice Theravada Buddhism which leads me into nature very often and when coming back, I am calm, but the world seems so much faster. The wake you speak of only effects the people who are still riding the waves. :^)

I am living in Hawaii right now and the motion out here was always closer to sustainability. I think that everyone should pretend they live on an island and put up imaginary borders around the cities. But in the US there is too much land that led to the problem.

  • Sun, Feb 22, 2009 - 07:02pm

    #17
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 31 2017

    Posts: 1583

    count placeholder0

    Re: Food and shelter

[quote=strabes][quote=durango]Excuse me.  RICH PEOPLE DO NOT WANT SOCIALISM!  Socialism for rich people is FASCISM for the rest of us!

[/quote]
That’s the same thing…just a certain type of socialism.  German fascism was "National Socialism."
There is no such thing as socialism without a rich elite…even the communist form is run by a hypocritical powerful rich politburo. 

[/quote]

 

This is a common misperception about the Third Reich.  Reactionary movements like fascism like to portray themselves as revolutionary and forward looking, however the opposite is true.  The full name of the Nazi party was Nationalist Socialist German Workers Party (in German, NSDAP).  The level of hypocrisy in this is staggering.  First, socialism is about a redistribution of surplus value in the form of taxes levied on productive activity, i.e., surplus value, and in turn benefits provided to society as a whole.  Private property still exists, but it is not used as a ploy to concentrate wealth in the hands of capitalists.  Some industry is held by the state when the social concerns outweigh the profitability.  In the real world there is no pure socialist system just as there are no truly free markets.  Also remember that socialism doesn’t just burst on to the scene fully formed and complete.  There are always antecedents.  Rich elites before socialism will tend to stay rich in more enlightened societies.  The rate at which the become richer will decline somewhat.  There are always societal norms that operate before and after a socialist transformation.  They are very powerful in giving an instance of socialism its particular flavor, so to speak.  The Sandinistas were heavily influenced by the Catholic church.  Socialism and capitalism very often exist side by side in mixed economies like say, France and Israel.  In fact, Sandinista controlled Nicaragua had the same proportion of public and private enterprise as France.

In the case of the Nazis, the economy was a corporate feeding frenzy.  Workers rights were trampled, wages were reduced, unions were suppressed, the press was taken over, etc.  The Party was socialist in name only.  As mentioned before, the workers got the shaft from the Nazis.  When you include the slave labor component in the Nazi economy, i.e., Jews, Gypsies, Slavic’s, political undesirables, etc.,  calling it a worker’s party was crass to say the least.  The real economic agenda behind the Party was the enrichment of the corporate elite through warfare, conquest, slavery, and outright theft.  And woe was anyone who got in their way.  For a while at least.

And lest we forget, corporate America was enamored of the Nazis.  During the years before WWII, corporate investments in the rest of Europe dried up and flooded into Germany.  As Germany rearmed in preparation for conquest, the government was spending huge sums on military contracts and many corporations wanted a slice of the pie.  Shall we mention names?  How about ITT, Ford, International Harvester, du Pont, GM, IBM?  Some of them continued business after war was declared.  Some even received compensation for damage due to the war.  Can’t you imagine their eyes lighting up when they realized they could take bazillions of dollars in capital and invest in industries protected by a government that terrorizes labor?

The difficulty in getting this point across lies in part with the success of the propaganda system in this country.  Every "-ism" that isn’t capitalism tends to get lumped together in some amorphous category of "stuff we don’t like to talk about".  The "we" being the corporate controlled media and their handmaidens like the educational system.  All of this is loaded with a lot of emotional baggage that is nearly impossible to penetrate.  It’s like anyone who questions capitalism or the class basis of our society is in league with the devil or Osama bin Laden.  Do I exaggerate?  What about the term Islamo-fascist?  Is this silly or what?  The twit who coined that phrase either knows nothing about Islam and fascism, or he does and he’s a liar of the highest degree.  As a result, socialists, communists, and Nazis are all the same in the public mind.  I would like to ask Joseph Goebbels his opinion in this.  He’d probably laugh himself sick.  Imagine near total control of a society without having to resort to concentration camps.  He’d be like a kid in a candy shop with a VISA card with no limit.  Here we are on a blog with presumably near total freedom of speech and yet it’s nearly impossible to discuss Marx or socialism in an intelligent manner.  My hat’s off to Fox News, CBS, PBS, Time, Newsweek, AP, and the lot of ’em.  Well done, boys!

  • Mon, Feb 23, 2009 - 12:26am

    #23
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 31 2017

    Posts: 1583

    count placeholder0

    Re: Food and shelter

Durango, I don’t share your affection for or hope in socialism of any kind (except at the local community level where people take care of each other in relationship, not via bureaucrats and tyrants).  Debating the supply-side difference between control systems misses my whole point.  My point is, as your definition says, that top-down economic control systems require redistribution.  That’s all.  There are people that control others, even if it’s supposedly an anarchistic socialism (which has never existed except in the minds of academics or in the efforts of revolutionaries that have always failed).  I’m more concerned with the demand-side.  Control over others.  On the spectrum between anarchy (0% govt) and tyranny (100% govt), all forms of socialism are too far on the tyranny side for me.  And history shows every single attempt at serious socialism has resulted in more tyranny down the road.  Once you have Marx’s notion of "from each, to each" accepted in society, then people accept control, then any narcissistic leader (like we’ve had in the US) knows how to manipulate people to vote to put them in power, and then the next step is that sociopathic killers are attracted to the system to take the power (roughly the personality diagnosis of every king/dictator in history).  I’d rather keep a republic…safely between anarchy and tyranny.  Unfortunately the only system close to that in the world that I’m aware of any longer is Switzerland (the US lost that status in the 20th century).  They probably don’t call themselves a republic, but it’s a system of dispersed power held at the canton level and the citizen level…power hungry tyrants can’t get power at the national level.

 [quote=quoatoan]Socialism without a rich elite existed before, in Spain. It is called Libertarian Socialism, or Anarchy, which is worth spending the time investigating. (And no, it is not the same thing as Libertarianism)[/quote]

Great example of what I just said…it was just an idea that never really got established…had it been established it wouldn’t have worked for very long.  It’s just a matter of time before tyrants take more control to serve their own personal agendas. 

I appreciate listing some of the american corporations involved with German fascism because I’m a 1/2 Jew whose extended Polish family was exterminated, so I’m quite familiar with the corporate involvement, and I want more people to know about that story.  But again, has nothing to do with what I’m saying.  There are american corporations involved with every system of socialism and tyranny out there.  I never said anything about defending capitalism or the stupid knee-jerk reaction a lot of americans have being defensive about their system.  

[quote=Durango]Workers rights were trampled, wages were reduced, unions were suppressed, the press was taken over, etc.[/quote]

Uh yeah, just like in every system, including all socialist systems and the financial fascist system we have in the US where the Fed suppresses wages by creating an environment of constant inflation (why families struggle to feed themselves now compared to 50 years ago when just dad worked, and he only worked til 5pm), only to fully crush them in deflation.  It’s odd that you would list these things as if they were unique to German fascism.

To sum, I focus on the spectrum between anarchy and tyranny, not the categories political science departments have come up with over the years to cloak in more palatable terms the idea of people dictating how others live their lives.  I could care less whether corporations are involved to help the ruling elite control people (what you apparently focus on).  Either way, it’s control.  

 

  • Mon, Feb 23, 2009 - 01:01am

    #24
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 31 2017

    Posts: 1583

    count placeholder0

    Re: Food and shelter

Hi Croatoan

Glad you understand this in relation to time. Yes maybe tribalism is islandism. I am pleased to learn that Buddhism can achieve a slowing of time. 

Don

____________________________________________

7 billion people can be wrong, very wrong

 

  • Mon, Feb 23, 2009 - 02:10am

    #25
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 31 2017

    Posts: 1583

    count placeholder0

    Re: Food and shelter

strabes, I am not here to educate you, all I can do is point at the moon. If someone tells you something it would be good to fact check on your own instead of repeating what you think is the truth. You have no understanding of Anarchism; historical or politically.

Anarchistic Socialism is redundant and never used by political scientists. What you said was Libertarian Socialist Socialism. =^/

Socialism can exists anywhere on the spectrum of Freedom to Tyranny from Libertarian Socialism to National Socialism

Anarchy is not 0% government. Anarchy advocates decentralized government. 

Feel free to read this: http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html Specifically, http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secI5.html

It was the Republic of Spain, and later Franco’s tyranny, that ended the Spanish Anarchist Movement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain They tyranny came from the outside. 

And I like what Orwell had to about Spain when he visited during the revolutionary times: 

I had dropped more or less by chance into the only community of any size in Western Europe where political consciousness and disbelief in capitalism were more normal than their opposites. Up here in Aragon one was among tens of thousands of people, mainly though not entirely of working-class origin, all living at the same level and mingling on terms of equality. In theory it was perfect equality, and even in practice it was not far from it. There is a sense in which it would be true to say that one was experiencing a foretaste of Socialism, by which I mean that the prevailing mental atmosphere was that of Socialism. Many of the normal motives of civilized life–snobbishness, money-grubbing, fear of the boss, etc.–had simply ceased to exist. The ordinary class-division of society had disappeared to an extent that is almost unthinkable in the money-tainted air of England; there was no one there except the peasants and ourselves, and no one owned anyone else as his master. 

I think it is hysterical that you said " I’d rather keep a republic…safely between anarchy and tyranny". So, you like just a little bit of tyranny? Did everyone here that? He likes a little bit of tyranny in his world!

 

  • Mon, Feb 23, 2009 - 02:33am

    #26
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 31 2017

    Posts: 1583

    count placeholder0

    Re: Food and shelter

[quote=strabes]

To sum, I focus on the spectrum between anarchy and
tyranny, not the categories political science departments have come up
with over the years to cloak in more palatable terms the idea of people
dictating how others live their lives. I could care less whether
corporations are involved to help the ruling elite control people (what
you apparently focus on). Either way, it’s control.

[/quote]

Oh strabes, I sure share your dislike of control. As a woman
living in a patriarchy, I can tell you it is really bad how people
control our reproductive rights and don’t give us equal pay for equal
work. And don’t even get me started on how people judge my gay friends’
personal lives. We are controlled on so many levels we don’t even
realize it.

  • Mon, Feb 23, 2009 - 02:56am

    #27
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 31 2017

    Posts: 1583

    count placeholder0

    Re: Food and shelter

Croatoan – I feel your desperate desire to hang onto the Chomsky textbook education.  I’ll stick with real world.

Ceci1ia – yes, the harm caused by such cultural, economic, political, gender, family control is an abomination.  I’m still grieving the harm from the control I’ve suffered in my past.  I look forward to a world where control is not necessary.  Though I’m still learning to surrender to the reality that I won’t see such a world on earth.  Makes me sad.  

  • Mon, Feb 23, 2009 - 03:49am

    #28
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 31 2017

    Posts: 1583

    count placeholder0

    Re: Food and shelter

Sorry, I never read Chomsky. Really, I didn’t. I came to understand Anarchy through Buddhism. 

I would be interested to hear why you think a little bit of tyranny is a good thing, Any where you got your term Anarchist Socialism. It must be in a Chomsky book because I have never heard that term before.

It is OK to be wrong and to learn from people who know more than you about a subject. You are not free as long as you are bound to your ideas and your pride. 

  • Mon, Feb 23, 2009 - 05:54am

    #29
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 31 2017

    Posts: 1583

    count placeholder0

    Re: Food and shelter

I don’t know a whole lot about Chomsky, but he’s the MIT professor who is one of the more popular socialist thought leaders in the US.  I haven’t heard him first hand, only 2nd hand analysis of him so I honestly don’t know much about him. My understanding is that he preaches a benevolent/utopian form of socialism where we each govern ourselves.  I just added anarchistic as an adjective in front of socialism on my own as my way of labeling those types of socialist systems where the people govern themselves (I didn’t mean to imply anything by that except they are supposedly not tyranny-based socialist systems).  I never heard your term Libertarian Socialism but I guessed it was that type of system.  

Maybe I’m being too pessimistic, but I don’t think that type of benevolent system works on earth.  I think the human heart is too broken.  I therefore think some amount of government is necessary, and that’s why I want a republic. It seems to be the most stable form of government that balances between anarchy and tyranny, though it only took 150 years or so for the US to lose its republic so maybe I’m wrong.  

I admire someone who engages philosophy/religion at the depth it seems you’re doing with Buddhism.  I think all of our problems in life tie to broken human hearts.  We all need heart transformation.  I spent most of my life trying to control everything with my head.  That solved nothing and wasted a lot of time, though my head still gets in the way most of the time.  I want to spend the rest of my life engaging my heart and the hearts of others to pursue redemption and healing. Thank you for naming my arrogant pride.  I desire to be more tender.

  • Mon, Feb 23, 2009 - 06:21am

    #30
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Status Bronze Member (Offline)

    Joined: Oct 31 2017

    Posts: 1583

    count placeholder0

    Re: Food and shelter

[quote=strabes]

<snip>

I admire someone who engages philosophy/religion at the depth it seems you’re doing with Buddhism.  I think all of our problems in life tie to broken human hearts.  We all need heart transformation.  I spent most of my life trying to control everything with my head.  That solved nothing and wasted a lot of time, though my head still gets in the way most of the time.  I want to spend the rest of my life engaging my heart and the hearts of others to pursue redemption and healing. Thank you for naming my arrogant pride.  I desire to be more tender.

[/quote]

I usually see a lot of respect for others opinions on this site – something which I appreciate and I admire.

Strabes, while engaging in vigorous debate in various threads, you obviously have a lot of respect for those who "duel" with you over various issues.

Your words above are reassuring. It seems to me that there are not enough people willing to be better than they are and yet you are obviously working at it. (Would that I had your strength of purpose!)

In short – you have my compliments, sir.

Viewing 10 posts - 21 through 30 (of 37 total)

Login or Register to post comments