field report from Italy, Greece, Turkey, and Croatia

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And just when you thaught you knew who you were talking to.

Take absolutely nothing for granted.

http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/search/label/BISINIS

  • Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 03:06pm

    #62
    treemagnet

    treemagnet

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    Jan

AO and I are having an argument for all to see.  I would have preferred to keep it private…but I guess he wants to the support of like minded wingmen – like the post you (really) misinterpreted.  I never expect support here, as others do….via their 'wingmen'…get it?  The usual suspects can always rely on the four or five horsemen to support them.  Thats what I meant.  You got it way wrong.  Most folks here at PP are not self employed.  They have no clue, none at all, of what has to happen to stay in business.  My business by the way, is a fourth generation business that began in 1930.  I got into it, really into it, in the late 80's and early 90's.  It was tanking hard, and my Father (a silent) wanted to fix things without changing anything.  I brought it back from the brink, diversified and got debt free – and grew it.  Others who work hard, or hardly work, simply are unaware of the realities of small business.  Its a concept, a statistic and a charming notion to most – but in your heart you all want to work for Honeywell, 3M, or other such monsters.  Small business to you is an American Express commecial showing a happy florist.  Its risky, hard work, and you can lose everything or make something.  So, do see how wrong you are with your bold "going to have a seriously tough time earning a living" comment?  You Jan, shouldn't judge what you don't know, and I'll try to do more of the same myself.  Its interesting how AO swings and misses and I don't, and I'm going to the principal's office.  No matter, I'm used to it.  He's the ass, he allows no quarter.

Its an issue that requries people (as I do) to see the 'shades of gray' rather than just the black/white.  13ers shine at this, boomers don't.  Its a lifetime of conditioning thing, not a fault or talent.  Again, its a topic that will be argued over and over in the coming years – and its only here for you to see because AO wanted it that way.  It is juvenile and silly, all the more reason to keep it on a PM basis…..see?!  Get it Jan?   Oh, and AO's PM to me was less than polite, to which I did not respond.  Is he an ass now too?   

I like to argue, but this dude wants to make it personal – so I obliged him.  You want to really get me fired up?  Starting talking about public sector unions……lets just not go there.  And you know what I found most surprising in all of this.  I've never been on the most watched list six or seven times with that many thumbs up.  Think about that.  Lots of folks view but don't post….more than I've ever had.  So maybe this topic struck a nerve.  Rich vs. poor, boomers vs. society, young vs. old….there are lots of topics coming your way my dear, and doubtful you'll like the tone or tenor of them as well.  Its getting personal.  Its getting real.  Remove me from the argument and look at the issue.  Boomers are the last to benefit from the system.  Under them, you have people who struggle to pay their bills, take care of their families, and plan for their futures….and on top of that you want me to happily contribute to a flawed, broken ponzi which I won't ever see a return so the folks in first class can ride off into the sunset?!  There are great boomers, I have many of them as friends – and we give each other alot of shit.  There are total reject loser 13ers and millenials, and on and on.  AO isn't the boomers to me any more than I am a 13er to him.

  • Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 03:13pm

    #63
    treemagnet

    treemagnet

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    well said

Saffron, if I send you my PMs, will you re-type them for me?  You write eloquently and still make your point succinctly.

  • Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 03:18pm

    #64
    treemagnet

    treemagnet

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    That is a great

tune!  I guess the topic as a whoe really appeals to me – and you're right, everyone should invest $.99 with Itunes and download that song.  The lyrics of Floyd, I've never read alot of lyrics for songs, but his are really, like…poetry – to me.  Good points.

  • Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 04:19pm

    #65
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    treemagnet

.there are lots of topics coming your way my dear, and doubtful you'll like the tone or tenor of them as well.  Its getting personal.  Its getting real.  Remove me from the argument and look at the issue.

First of all, I am not "your dear", so please cease and desist with that kind of stuff – it's really in poor taste.

Second, we are most happy to discuss issue, but it is you who started making it personal with your style of communicating, which is abrasive. If that is who you are and what you are all about then c'est la vie. But don't expect people to try to engage you in discussion when you put yourself out there in the manner that you do. All you succeed in doing is alienating people.

Third, you make an awful lot of assumptions about your audience, when you know nothing about us. You are not the only person who is/was self-employed, suffered hardship and had to work your ass off to pay the bills. I come from a family of successful entrepreneurs, so I understand that perspective very well. I have in the past been self-employed myself. While I am sure it is not meant, the way you are portraying things comes across as "poor me". Just saying.

No doubt this topic has struck a raw nerve. If that is in fact true then the best thing that could happen is for all those viewers who are silent to write in to contribute to the discussion. If all people do is sit back and read without ever weighing in, regardless of which side of the fence they are on, then how are they any different from the boomers who are doing nothing to help solve the problems? Come on folks. If it is important enough to give thumbs up then tell us why you think so.

Saffron made a good post with some good points. We can take this discussion further if we want to. I personally would like to ask you to tone down the rhetoric and engage us in a more mature manner. Bear in mind that the written word is like a weapon, and can do a lot of damage when not used well. If everyone tries to keep this in mind then we can truly have a productive dialogue. How it goes from here is largely up to you, but ao can help us out in that regard too.

Okay, time to tune out – it is a beautiful day and I am going fishing!

Jan

  • Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 05:20pm

    #66
    treemagnet

    treemagnet

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    Okay Jan

Here it is, your matching me in tone and terse – though I'm a waaaay better smart ass than you, and since I'm fluent in sarcasm don't expect me to retire that skill anytime soon.  Your posts are the like the gift that keeps on giving Jan, full of double standards, listen sonny-boys, do-as-your-told snippets.  The tide is turning so blame me if it helps you sleep at night, just know lots of people you know, meet, and admire feel like me to some degree (doesn't that make you wonder..).  Its not a moral issue, its not rightness or wrongness issue.  Its numbers and demographics.  Another team is coming up through the ranks is all, their younger, fiercer, and have a fire in their belly.  And the millenials will come next.  Except, 13ers will not be loved in their later years like you folks.  We'll represent another time, bad times, 4th Turning Times.  I'm sure they'll be fireworks, but nomads will accept their fate, whereas you don't – despite history showing you what to expect.  Nope, its easier to do what your doing – personify your anger and pour it into somebody like me, well, good luck with that.  Facing facts has never been the boomers strong point, so why start now huh?  The real reason this bugs you folks is that you know theres truth to the opposing argument – and you can't just ignore it anymore, sign your AARP card, and be done with it.  Its Saturday, I'm here working (with my family) and don't regret it – my kids are learning, growing, and applying knowledge.  Its not a 'poor me' post as you put, not one bit.  Where it goes from here….this is a topic that interests me.  You keep poking me on the issue, I'll likely keep replying.  I am who I am.  I'm not changing and I'm done trying to explain myself to an audience.  Love me or hate me – JUST LIKE YOU, I ain't changin.  If I was a boomer buddy applying the same effort supporting your posts you'd be my best buddy.  But yeah, in general, I'm done with this and willing to drop it.  But the topic is a good one, too good to go away – so maybe posed differently?…..sure, I'm in.     

  • Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 05:25pm

    #67
    jdye51

    jdye51

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    Breathe

Saffron, thanks for your post.

One of the emotional consequences of collapse is anger. Outrage is certainly a normal response to the end of the world as we know it. Anger projected outwards is blame, looking for a scapegoat. The human mind, in an effort to find meaning, needs a target. This has happened again and again in the history of our species. A group is identified as the problem and then all hell breaks loose.

I believe that under anger lies sadness, grief. But it is so painful to feel that we stay stuck in anger. I would invite all here to stop a moment and breathe. Feel your anger and let it lead you to what lies underneath it. Breathe into your anger. Find where it resides in your body. Let it move, transform, morph, reveal. Let yourself surrender to the truth of what you are feeling without needing to do anything. Stay with it and remember to breathe. Trust the intellligence of your own body/emotions.

Rather than attack one another which does nothing but breed more anger, may I suggest that some self-introspection is in order.  The danger in only focusing on physical preps is that we miss the rich work in emotional preparation for collapse. The feelings are there and, unless we at least acknowledge and name them, they will find all sorts of paths to bleed out in less constructive ways.

We all need compassion at this time of Great Sorrow. We are all in this together. Let's support each other with love and forgiveness. Let's tranform our weapons (in this case words) into ploughshares. If someone sounds angry in a post, inquire about that – what is under that anger – what is that person trying to communicate with it? Underneath they are hurting. Ask "How can I help?". Invite them to go inside and feel their feelings. Say, "I hear you brother. Tell me more about your pain. Even if I can't change things, I am here for you".  Be ready to weep with them.

Notice the difference in how you are feeling in your body as you read these words versus how you felt when reading some of the angry posts. Which feels better? Which unites, joins together in strength and healing? We have an opportunity to do things differently. We complain about how things got this way, but are we willing to change ourselves? Are we willing to face our own losses – of the dreams we had for the future, of the life we expected? We cannot do each other's emotional work but we can be supports for one another as we each struggle to come to terms with the unthinkable.

My brothers and sisters of PP, if we can't help each other now, how will we hope to when everything falls apart?

Joyce

  • Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 05:26pm

    #68
    Grover

    Grover

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    Proper place and time

As I said in an earlier post, FAlley started this thread to discuss The Fourth Turning https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/79977/fourth-turning-generational-cycles. I would love to discuss this book and its ramifications for the future. It dovetails well with Chris' concepts. That is the place to look at generational conflicts … and more importantly … what we (individually and collectively) can do about it.

ao started this thread to share his observations on a wonderful vacation. It is what it is. It was a narrow slice of a part of the world that most of us will never see. I appreciate that he took the time to share this with us.

Grover

  • Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 07:19pm

    #69
    treemagnet

    treemagnet

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    Thanks Grover

I'll check it out.

  • Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 07:53pm

    #70
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    OK treemagnet, ao

Treemagnet, ao,

You guys are on the cusp of a great conversation, and I'd love to hear it.  There's a lot of intergenerational frustration, and a conversation that maintains a facade of disinterested civility while hiding the intensity of the real underlying feelings can be worse than blunt honesty.  In some cases.

Nevertheless, now is the time to get serious about this conversation or shut it off.  You've both had plenty of time to vent (and you, treemagnet, have taken particular advantage of this opportunity).

Ao, you are the representative of the boomers.  Treemagnet, you represent Generation X.  In order for each of you to represent a generation (if this is even possible), some pretty big generalizations are going to be needed.  It is precisely because big generalizations are needed that you should refrain from being too personal with your debate partner.

Let's see if you can take this argument somewhere real.  From now on, here are the rules:  (1) Ignore personal insults directed at you, and (2) don't personally insult.

If you need to express frustration, direct your insults at the generation that the other person represents.  There is a difference between:

(1) "You are an entitled idiot," and

(2) "That statement is representative of the obscene entitlement mentality that typifies the […] Generation."

If the two of you choose to continue this, I'll be reading with interest.

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