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field report from Italy, Greece, Turkey, and Croatia

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  • Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 02:31am

    #51
    ao

    ao

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    insight into a boomer bigot

[quote=treemagnet]

Your condescending intro, to me, says it all.  I'd love, and I mean love, to take you on point by point – what boomers do best, especially the successful types, is to take a direct argument and twist it, take it out of context, and obfuscate the key issue as if the fallacies of reasoning are lost on everyone but them.  It all serves to justify the importance of their views and others like them (which, I bet if we got Adam involved we could find out – demographics of PP), which reach the boomer 'shores' as wave after wave of self adoration and reassurance and justification for the boomer mindset of "we are special".  And you are.  But, as in politics, you've reached your apex and now your type is pooling in sites like this….sites which clearly state "like minded people".  Boomers have no interest in anyone that don't think/feel/express,etc. their views and attitudes like them – like you AO.

[/quote]

Condescension begets condescension.  How does it feel?  I've got a little more time now, but not much more.  Take me on point by point boomer bigot.  Give it your best shot.  I've never had a truly open exchange with a bonafide bigot.  This should be interesting.  No guts, no glory.  

  • Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 02:55am

    #52
    treemagnet

    treemagnet

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    Let’s do it

But not out here in the open, it will violate site rules.  PM me, and I you – I've got lots going on this weekend so my sparring time is limited, but yeah, go for it you judgemental hypocrite.  Boomers are the last generation in a position to do something about this mess, you've got the money, jobs, power, and clout to make the tough decisions that need to be made.  Any idea when your gonna get around to it?  Or do you want to continue with your tired "nobody else did anything either, so why should we?" Bullshit.  Justify political correctness, don't forget to brag about how you got a job outta high school that paid a mans wage, equivalent to just under 50k in today's dollars, and chalk it up to your moral courage, or did you go to college and pay your way…..with a summer job doing menial tasks (today's college graduates job), that paid your full tuition and still left money for life, living, and fun.  You call me a bigot….brace for impact you son-of-a-bitch.  

Welcome to the neighborhood, neighbor.   

[Moderator's note:  This sort of language is a violation of our forum rules.  It contaminates the posting environment like a ship discharging waste into a clean bay.  It achieves nothing positive.]

  • Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 02:56am

    #53
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Bigotry.

I had to look it up. In my mind it was conflated with Bad. So here it is.

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Mirriam Webster.

I think it is a Left Brain thing. (Or would that make me a bigot? Against one half of Humanity, I mean)

(Multilingualism improves Lateral thinking.)

  • Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 03:10am

    #54
    ao

    ao

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    treemagnet wrote:But not out

[quote=treemagnet]

But not out here in the open, it will violate site rules.  PM me, and I you – I've got lots going on this weekend so my sparring time is limited, but yeah, go for it you judgemental hypocrite.  Boomers are the last generation in a position to do something about this mess, you've got the money, jobs, power, and clout to make the tough decisions that need to be made.  Any idea when your gonna get around to it?  Or do you want to continue with your tired "nobody else did anything either, so why should we?" Bullshit.  Justify political correctness, don't forget to brag about how you got a job outta high school that paid a mans wage, equivalent to just under 50k in today's dollars, and chalk it up to your moral courage, or did you go to college and pay your way…..with a summer job doing menial tasks (today's college graduates job), that paid your full tuition and still left money for life, living, and fun.  You call me a bigot….brace for impact you son-of-a-bitch.  

Welcome to the neighborhood, neighbor.   

[/quote]

No do it the open.  What are you afraid of?  Can't speak without using obscenity, bigot?  Sign of low intelligence.  Like referring to generalizations when it's pattern recognition that's important, bigot.

[Moderator's note: This is an equally unhelpful response.  The name-calling shows a lack of any desire to heal the situation, but rather, a desire to accelerate the deterioration of the conversation toward the negative by actively goading the participant into more of the same negative behavior.  To the extent that you do this, you are working in opposition to me and to the forum rules.]

  • Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 03:47am

    #55
    ao

    ao

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    anatomy of a bigot

 

I found the turn this thread took was disturbing.  Treemagnet rants and raves and spews hate about a generation and only a handful confront him on it.  When we use a broad (and inaccurate) brush to paint an entire group of (heterogeneous I may add) people who simply are born around the same time in the same area to create scapegoats, it fosters divisiveness and hate, not unity and harmony.  Hitler, a failed artist, did the same thing blaming the Jews for his and Germany's problems.  This is a very dangerous way of thinking. 
 
And what is it based on?  A book?  And what is that book based on?  A theory … a hypothesis actually, unproven .. not undeniable, incontrovertible facts.  I enjoyed reading The Fourth Turning and garnered a lot of information from it but also recognized it numerous shortcomings.  I also recognized the potential (which is gradually being realized even while most of its proponents don't recognize it yet) of fostering another dimension of the Hegelian dialectic.  Wake up those who are sleeping!  They've added (and will use) generation against generation like man against woman, race against race, religion against religion, poor against rich, etc.  Basing your worldview and life philosophy on this book is not too far removed from basing it on Mein Kampf.  That doesn't fault the work as an academic exercise but it does fault those who embrace it as an absolute 100% truth and infallible.  
 
The problem is not a generation and the problem never will be a generation.  The problem is individuals who can be found in each and every generation.  Chris Duane recently wrote of how the major problem facing the world is not the economy, energy, environment, etc.  It's sociopaths.  The sociopaths who gravitate to the halls of power in both the business and corporate world are the ones who have inflicted most of the misery upon mankind.  Read The Sociopath Next Door and other books on the subject to learn how to identify and deal with these individuals.  My colleagues and I call these folks the one percenters (and it's not the 1% based on income).  It's the one percent of the population that causes 99% of the problems.  It's the Hitlers and Stalins, the Goldman CEOs and Monsanto CEOs, the Henry Kissingers and the Zbigniew Brzezinskis, etc.  But there are sociopaths on the low end of the food chain as well and they can be just as problematic on the local level.   
 
What I also find disturbing is when someone writes a post and says "No offense" but their post is offensive.  Or when someone claims that they're are not angry but their writing reeks of anger.  While there's nothing wrong with anger per se and righteous anger is justified (although it is nowadays regularly lambasted by the politically correct in a ploy to induce widespread passivity), anger directed against a group for the actions of a few in the group is misdirected and fuels the flames of hate.  It makes me wonder what has happened to one to hate like that.  The revelation of a dysfunctional family brings understanding when one realizes the projection of one's personal family problems onto the broader population of the same age range is what has occurred.  Also revealing is the discussion of doing business with honesty and integrity while at the same time talking of "getting my money out of them" and looking for any way to make the sale.  A bit of an incongruity there which typifies the archtypical (and probably mythical) greedy boomer he purports to loathe.  He has become who he hates, a common psychological paradox of the dysfunctional. 
 
Frankly, I had planned to leave PP a while ago.  So If I'm banned, no big deal.  But I can't leave a bigot like this unanswered.  
 
If you're a failure, bigot, blame yourself, not a generation.  Chew on that, bigot.
 
  • Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 04:47am

    #56
    treemagnet

    treemagnet

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    No problem

Your first two paragraphs ramble on about previous nutjobs and dictators, with a weak segway into sociapaths – me, I presume.  But, if you knew anything about the rise of sociopaths in our society – you'd know they love turmoil, especially in large corporate cultures and government….I think the reference to me is a stretch, at best.  Though you and liberal colleagues have me in the unfortunate 1 percent club – tenured professor…..you definitely have a career, near the end, where you opinion over the years is the basis of your standing.  Knowing this started, from a simple statement merely noting a post citing such carnage and moving on to a happy ending like the newscaster going from tradegy to comedy, is an issue you and yours need to address.  Your beyond thin-skinned.  You can't handle any assessment of you that isn't warm, loving, and positively glowing.  Yet, you have plenty of vitriol to go around – you're a joke, a spoof, a punchline.  You've been raised to believe something that everyone else knows to be false, but you believe it nonetheless.  Your generation hasn't and won't do anything that involves taking a hit now.  You claim to love your children and grandchildren – yet some of you know what your doing to their futures….and you do nothing. 

A dysfunctional family to you, not to me.  You know nothing of me and my family.  But you judge with no facts.  You call me a bigot?  I'm in business to produce a profit and thats bad?  You've no idea what work is.  When you can get fired for doing even a great job, mister – welcome to my world.  Hell, you're a space heater at best.  You're the kind that spreads the vile filth that capitalism is bad.  You'll be the one tearing down the system that employs people, and allows them to earn to their potential.  You never answered my question…..what do you do?…..your a zoo animal.  Your the lion that gets a free ride while judging the other lions in the wild by your norms, your standards.  You get paid for doing nothing – and raises, and health care, and a fat pension with COLAS, drug/prescription, all of it.  We should all have that – but you have the "I've got mine" AARP mentality rolling, so I guess its all ok.  Your a success. 

Your posts, my posts, most posts – are riddled with no offense tags.  What would you suggest? – thing is, I really meant no offense.  I'll tell you what pisses me off, replies that take things so out of context, twist them, and put words in others mouths – you highjack a thread and bury some poor sonofabitch in made up, falsified crap that answers your point….which was never sought!  No offense.

I don't blame the boomer generation for all of societies ills. But they're right there in front of me, and if you ain't the lead dog, the view never changes. I've followed the pack now for some time, and I don't like what I've seen, heard, and experienced.  But the truth is, not all boomers are gonna have such a great ending.  Many, many boomers are going to miss the cut off for SS and so forth – some know it, most don't.  But your generation has power, for now, and squanders it.  And that really pisses me off!  Precious time is slipping by, and you and yours are cool with it.  You thrash about trying to label me and anyone that doesn't tell you how great you are that they're bigots, trouble makers, and 1%'s (you really need to tweak that) – tough, deal with it.  Thats what you've been telling others for years.  Maybe you know the truck, what coming, and aren't ready.  Maybe your scared, frightened, lonely….your certainly pathetic, but maybe – no certainly, theres more to your story.  Theres is to mine.   I notice you PM'd me, haven't checked the message, I thought you wanted to air this dirty laundry for all.  Your post is a joke, go to bed, think harder, come back with something more – something worth all of our time.  Good night.

  • Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 05:13am

    #57
    Peak Prosperity Admin

    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    um, you stepped in it now…

Treemagnet, post #52 is your undoing. You tried to tell us you are not angry, but that is not holding so much water anymore after reading that.

I'd like to point out a couple of things. In post #38 you said

We're social animals they say, thats, social ANIMALS…..some are in the real world and some are in the zoo.  The ones in the zoo have a drastically different take on things than me because of our realities.  Anyway, thanks again – post something controversial so we can argue!

(bold is my emphasis). I laughed this off in my next post, but you know, I am not interested in "arguing". I am here to have constructive debate. There is a big difference.

Also, why did you feel the need to call on your "wingmen" to support you? (post #21) I don't ask for anyone's support. My posts garner thumbs up on their own merits. I don't need wingmen (or should I be a politically correct boomer and say "wingperson"?) to "support me". I can stand on my own two feet thank you very much.

And why do you want to engage ao on the sidelines via PM? You are approaching this as if it is a MMA fight. I personally would like to see you engage in an intellgient, mature debate with ao. It would be enlightening for all of us to see the two perspectives go head to head. Are you up to it? I know where I will lay my bet.

Your posts indicated that your work or business sales of some sort. I can tell you with a certainty that if your personality comes across in any way in your sales methodology, you are going to have a seriously tough time earing a living.

I am with ao (and others) in that I am unwilling to let bigotry go unchallenged. There is no room for it in a civilized debate or society – indeed the existence of bigots is a contributing factor to our societal ills.

What you have succeeded in doing here is showing your true colours, exposing yourself as part of the problem, instead of part of the solution. If you had any of the integrity you spoke of earlier, you would offer up an apololgy to ao for being such an ass.

Jan

 

  • Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 08:44am

    #58
    Saffron

    Saffron

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    Can we regroup?

I wonder if we can change the direction this thread is taking, with condescension met with bigotry met with anger met with name-calling where pretty soon we'll be reminded of the forum rules and the thread will be closed and the whole point of it all lost. And I apologize, ao, because I am not talking about your original point, which was to report on what you observed in Italy and Greece et al, but on treemagnet's take on that post which (it seemed to me) was a suggestion that your viewpoint of what you observed may be skewed by being a) a tourist (which it seems you agreed with) and b) a baby boomer who may be a little more comfortably set than a GenXer and more apt to look at things with slightly rosier glasses. I would not say you are oblivious or you wouldn't be on this forum … just suggesting that when one's personal assets are a little more comfortable than another's, they tend to see the future slightly brighter. 

I do realize treemagnet got rude, but please bear with me because I do think the conversation he was attempting to start is an important one (if I'm wrong treemagnet, I'm sorry … this is what I read between the lines probably because it has been on my own mind.)

To cut to the finish line … whether or not the boomers helped drive us to the economic abyss we are perched on, is there a way they can change things now or at least help stem the tide? Because the bottom line is, they are the only ones who can. For the most part they are the owners of (especially large) companies, they are still the primary power in politics, and they have money … which allows for time and freedom to stay on top of issues and get involved and affect policies … in fact boomers have been doing it for years in their favor. Just look at the policies that are breaking the bank and look at which ones get cut first – it has not been the ones that affect older, well-off middle americans because they have the means to fight and they do. Aarp is a good example .. a huge membership community that gets deals and discounts for older people as well as, to quote the site "a voice in Washington representing you on issues like Medicare, Social Security …") Do you know of a large membership community that is a voice for parents trying to make ends meet with one income so one can be home with the children? Or, for that matter, a voice that defends against public services being cut that are primarily for children (our local library cut hours, but the senior center is going strong.) 

The point I'm trying to make is that boomers not only enjoyed the fruits of coming of age during a time of high resources and great industry, they also grew their trees so large that they crowded out and shaded the trees coming up. Now the forest as a whole is suffering but the suggestion is for all the trees to take a hit rather than the larger ones chop a branch here and there to let in some light so the smaller ones have a chance (maybe my analogy got a little weird here … I hope you get my drift.) 

What would that chopping of a branch here and there look like? I'm not exactly sure and that's why we need to have a discussion. I am not talking about socialist-sounding policies that aim to take money from the rich and give to the rest. I do not believe that stuff is positive nor workable. I'm talking about the generation that has and that can, starting to look at what is coming, and making a concerted effort to cushion the blow to the following generations rather than continuing to scramble for their own last pieces of pie. I'm talking about a conversation that looks at what sacrifices could be made now, so the Heroes (as they are called in the 4th Turning) … the children and young adults of today … have a sliver of hope for their future.

No one baby boomer here or anywhere else is to blame for what is, but as a whole, that generation has been voting and setting policies for the past few decades and frankly, as a whole they've been apathetic and unconcerned with much beyond immediate gratification. Yes, I am aware that positive policies were also enacted … but there certainly were not enough where we considered " … the impact of our decisions on the next seven generations. – as the Iroquois say) … or even the next two generations … otherwise we probably wouldn't be in the dire straits we are in. 

I'd really like to see this conversation continued without veering off into personality wars. Some have shorter fuses while some have time to pen really eloquent but nonetheless scathing posts and all of a sudden there are sidetracks and names and demands that someone's pride be restored. But before you get lost in some small part of my post that is glaringly wrong … please take time to consider if that really takes away from my point as a whole. Perhaps it will help if you picture my 10 yo (or my 18 yo, or 21 yo) when you do so. Picture them (or some younger member of your own family) in the room while we have this conversation … observing us and how we handle ourselves as we discuss whether or not they deserve some consideration be given for their future. Because, going back to what I believe was treemagnet's original post, they are the ones stopped by the side of the road … and we are racing past trying to get closer to a finish line that they have no hope of even seeing.

  • Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 09:36am

    #59
    Peak Prosperity Admin

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    Fret no more.

No need to fret Saffron,

Our descendents will never know how close we came to the abyss.

At the foundation of the inter-generational war is the issue of resources, espescially Energy. With abundant energy we can pull elements out of sea-water.

And a new energy source has arrived on cue.

The next thing we are going to need is space. We are entering a time of ethical colonization. We will be building our own lands. This might seem as far fetched to you now as the internet was to Columbus.

  • Sat, Jun 08, 2013 - 10:24am

    #60
    Organic Raw Veggies

    Organic Raw Veggies

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    Song: On the turning away

Pink Floyd c1987, album A Momentary Lapse of Reason

The song, a power ballad, references issues of poverty and oppression, lamenting on the tendency of people to turn away from those afflicted with such conditions. It ends on a hopeful note, with the last stanza beginning, "no more turning away …". It is also a song that recovers the mysticism of songs like "Wish You Were Here" or "Us and Them", but this time treating topics like the suffering of people; the phrase "weak and the weary" portrays the suffering of people as a big problem in today's world.

Treemagnet has 6 of the top ten posts of this site presently. 

Though only 2 yrs apart my sister and I are very different, she boomer, very selfish even to her own struggling mother, buys $1000 purse yet fed kids mcDs and believes organic is a hoax…and the list would never end.  Me… must be 13er or GenX because I care about living on a clean planet, grow my food and eat a plant based diet knowing the destruction of the factory meat industry. I decided real environmentalists don't eat meat.  

Me, After reading a dozen books on success and careers creates business in service of a higher good for all. Business survives 10 yrs and still counting. We have to play a game we are not always comfortable with because that is the game now, or at least play enough to get through. I think we will come through the hard choices and get to build a new "way".

The Lost Generation ..was. The Greatest Generation…wasn't. The Silent Generation ..Is! The boom will bust squarely in the lap of GenX. The Y's and Z's, we'll see. Norman Ryder sheds light on the sociology of the discord between generations suggesting that "Society persists despite the mortality of its individual members, through processes of demographic metabolism and particularly the annual infusion of birth cohorts. These may pose a threat to stability but they also provide the opportunity for societal transformation." Amanda Grenier offered "Different ways of speaking exercised by older and younger people exist, and may be partially explained by social historical reference points, culturally determined experiences, and individual interpretations."

Time to pick the Strawberries and Yugoslavian Red Butterhead…

 

 

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