Book Review: The Mysterious Collapse of World Trade Center 7

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  • Tue, Aug 07, 2018 - 11:49am   (Reply to #536)

    #541

    gyrogearloose

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    the big picture

Grover wrote:

 Do you think an independent investigation with subpoena power is warranted? Why or why not?

No.

Grover wrote:

That really is the issue that all the “truthers” have in common. Different “truther” groups see anomalies surrounding 9/11 in their respective fields that just don’t fit – and weren’t adequately addressed (if at all) in the official report.

Because I see that too many of the ‘anomalies’ are based on a faulty interpertaion of indepentantly verifible facts.

 

Grover wrote:

Look at the big picture and see all the anomalies surrounding 9/11. Were they all merely coincidences? Why weren’t those anomalies addressed (or at least acknowledged) in the official report?

Grover

You keep asking me to look at the big picture. It seems to me you see a coherent picture.

Me, I can imagine the picture you are trying to paint, but too much of the picture truthers have painted ispainted with the ‘wrong colour’, making it an unatractive mess that not many people would buy.

Unless you are able to ‘see’ the bits that are painted the wrong colour, you will be at a loss as to why not many people see what you see.

For example one of the bits that is the ‘wrong colour’ is from AE911, one of their videos.

14 WTC TT Part 5 Direct Evidence of Explosions – ESO – Exper

 1.00 to 2.17 minutes in this video.”     (from my post #481)

Can you tell me why it is the ‘wrong colour’ ?

If you can’t, let me know and I will try and explain it to you.

Regards Hamish

 

  • Tue, Aug 07, 2018 - 01:03pm

    #542
    Time2help

    Time2help

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    The Bigger Picture

How about 9/11 was a combined effort between Israel (Mossad) and the US Deep State to usher in the War on Terror in support of the Oded Yinon (Greater Israel) plan, to prolong access to cheap oil by providing carte blanche cover for seizing the remaining middle eastern oil sweet spots and to prep the US/Western populations for the onset of the effects of peak oil (resource depletion and associated depopulation) via the imposition of police states?

  • Tue, Aug 07, 2018 - 04:20pm   (Reply to #536)

    #543

    Grover

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    Focus on the Official Story Flaws

Hamish,

You keep trying to find fault with “truther” arguments. Be consistent and apply that same critical eye to the official story. Or do you just want to poke fun at “truthers”? If so, that’s pretty pathetic.

Grover

  • Wed, Aug 08, 2018 - 10:52am   (Reply to #536)

    #544

    gyrogearloose

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    willfull blindness?

Grover

Wilfull blindness to flaws in your arguments are a good way to set yourself to fail,

Look back at post #480.There are alot more out there like him.

In your quest to get a new investigation, truthers will face him and worse.

If the authorities live up to truthers expectaions, the authorities will use every small fault as a reson to deny a rehearing.

Why give them the ammo???

Regards Hamish

  • Wed, Aug 08, 2018 - 05:38pm   (Reply to #536)

    #545

    Grover

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    Truth Doesn’t Fear Exposure

gyrogearloose wrote:

Grover

Wilfull blindness to flaws in your arguments are a good way to set yourself to fail,

Look back at post #480.There are alot more out there like him.

In your quest to get a new investigation, truthers will face him and worse.

If the authorities live up to truthers expectaions, the authorities will use every small fault as a reson to deny a rehearing.

Why give them the ammo???

Regards Hamish

Hamish,

Michael Rudmin may have sound reasons to draw his conclusions. Then again, it may be based on a partial assessment that confirmed a deeply held bias. I don’t know. He stated that he doesn’t have time to debate it further. Those and other objections need to be brought forward if we’re to find the truth. Why would I be afraid of exposing the truth?

In post #541, gyrogearloose wrote:
Grover wrote:

Do you think an independent investigation with subpoena power is warranted? Why or why not?

No.

Grover wrote:

That really is the issue that all the “truthers” have in common. Different “truther” groups see anomalies surrounding 9/11 in their respective fields that just don’t fit – and weren’t adequately addressed (if at all) in the official report.

Because I see that too many of the ‘anomalies’ are based on a faulty interpertaion of indepentantly verifible facts.

By saying that you don’t support a new investigation, you are saying that the existing investigation was adequate to ascertain all pertinent facts. (Please correct me if I’m wrong.) Do you really believe that? Can you explain why structural and fire prevention engineers weren’t allowed to investigate or sample the rubble that once was WTC 7? After all, that is the gold standard of forensic investigations. That material would have yielded valuable clues and was purposefully kept from being adequately investigated. If, as the official story purports, that WTC 7 came down due to fire, wouldn’t it be smart to find what started the collapse? Then, building codes could be modified so future occurrences of the same event could be prevented.

Isn’t that also part of the evidence? Have you heard any reasonable explanation for why the destruction of evidence was allowed? If a private corporation were to do this, I bet Doug and his ilk would be the first ones screaming about it (and rightly so.) Why is the same action by an entrusted government official above reproach?

Again, you like to throw out the baby with the bath water. You see “faulty interpertaion of indepentantly verifible facts” and therefore conclude the whole movement is worthless. You should do yourself a favor and dig a little deeper into the official story. With your innate ability to find flaws, you’ll find a boatload.

Here’s a link to a downloadable .pdf: https://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf

Grover

  • Thu, Aug 09, 2018 - 11:25am   (Reply to #536)

    #546

    gyrogearloose

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    Truth Doesn’t Fear Exposure, but some people are scared of facts

Grover wrote:

By saying that you don’t support a new investigation, you are saying that the existing investigation was adequate to ascertain all pertinent facts. (Please correct me if I’m wrong.) Do you really believe that? 

No. There are certainly unanswered or incorrectly answered questions.

Grover wrote:

You should do yourself a favor and dig a little deeper into the official story. With your innate ability to find flaws, you’ll find a boatload.

Truthers have been doing that for ages.

They already have a long list. 

But I see many of the truthers claims to be based on a faulty interpertation of the science behind the ‘errors’ (ie the bit in the AE911 video I have suggested you look at to see if you can spot the problem)

Grover wrote:

Again, you like to throw out the baby with the bath water. You see “faulty interpertaion of indepentantly verifible facts” and therefore conclude the whole movement is worthless.

Untill the truther movement can take an objective look at it arguments, and not rely so much on so erroeous analysis, they will not get far with their quest to get a re  investigation.

Worse still if they persist on promoting such obvious errors, they could be painted as fools and  any valid points they did have could be tarred with the same brush. (unfair but that is politics)

So do you choose to be willfully blind to errors in the truther movment, or will you make it stronger buy removing that which would weaken it?

 

Regards Hamish

 

 

 

  • Thu, Aug 09, 2018 - 04:01pm

    #547
    Doug

    Doug

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    primer

I ran across this pretty good primer for debunking 9/11 CTs along with appropriate links.  It also takes swipes at Pearl Harbor, Tonkin Gulf and Northwood CTs.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/9/11

Of course, I’m sure it won’t dent the impervious armor of CT belief.

  • Fri, Aug 10, 2018 - 06:55am

    #548

    sand_puppy

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    Photo of the “crucial girder” attachment to column 79

I found a photograph of the key element of the NIST explanation of the collapse of WTC7.  See my post #3 in this early thread.  This is a phtograph of the element deplicted schematically in my post as “Graphic 6.” 

This is an actual photo of the junction of the “curcial girder” with collumn 79.

The NIST collapse mechanism explains that the floor beams (running left to right in this photo) were heated by a fire below, and expanded pushing on what I have labled the “crucial girder,” (running directly away from the viewer) causing it to come free of its attachment to colum 79.

This picture gives a feel for the attachment itself.

————-

Per NIST, once column 79 lost its horizontal support, it buckled starting a chain reaction where falling portions of the building pulled down other portions in a progressive wave of destruction that moved  through the building over about 13 seconds.

The NIST explanation is in stark contrast to the video record of the event.   The video shows a sudden complete and total collapse where all 4 corners of the building drop at the same moment, and the building falls at free-fall speed.  I am not aware of any possible mechanism that can give such a sudden and complete destruction to a complex building structure (which was a network of connected girders, beams and columns with included diagonal supports) exept demolition charges place on all vertical columns (at aminimum) and detonated simultaneously.

  • Sat, Aug 11, 2018 - 05:48am   (Reply to #536)

    #549

    Grover

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    It’s Serious

Hamish,

You agree that the investigation and report of the events of 9/11 are insufficient, but you don’t support an independent investigation because you find anomalies in the “truther” arguments. Yet, you won’t look at the official report for yourself because you think the “truthers” have adequately shown its inconsistencies. That doesn’t make sense to me. You are approaching it like it is a game instead of realizing the seriousness involved.

The day of 9/11/2001 saw thousands die as the result of the Towers collapsing. The aftermath saw skirmishes in the sandbox that have cost thousands of young American soldiers’ lives and 100s of thousands (or more) of locals’ lives. The skirmishes have disrupted countless more lives. Worse yet – this is only the beginning. The warmongering Neocons’ blood lust never gets satiated – as long as they achieve their ends while others shed the blood.

The American government has used this event as the raison d’être to intercept all electronic communications (including these posts) and spy on all peoples of the world – including Americans (and you.) What do they do with this information? The proper question to ask is: what don’t they do with this information? Since the American government is doing this, all advanced nations are doing this. There is no way to stop this madness unless the official lies are exposed.

I’m tired of your game. Don’t expect me to respond to you anymore.

Grover

  • Sun, Aug 12, 2018 - 01:24am   (Reply to #536)

    #550

    gyrogearloose

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    There’s none so blind as those who will not see…

 

Grover.

Yes it was a terible day.

Yes it lead to a lots of conflicts and more deaths..

From what I have heard here there are realy only two ‘paths’ considered to be likely

1:-It was the unaided ( by USA interests) efforts of terrorists, resulting in the destruction of 911.

2:- The events happened with the covert assistance of US interests (be they officially sanctioned or not), and this extended on into falsafying sections of the reports etc

If it was #1,

The errors/inconsistincies in the repotrs, were not part of a conspiracy to hide the actions of US interests.

What were the alternatives in this case, Turn the other cheek? Afrganastan was hardly going to hand over Bin Laden etc.

 

If it was #2

The errors/inconsistancies are a result of US interests doing the best to make the day sufficently terrible to start the war on terror, and being unable to control everything perfectly, ‘assisted’ with the reports to hide the evidence of their assistance.

Uncovering this conspiracy would cause a massive outcry and backlash against the establishment, and many powerfull people would be at risk of jail time.

So any effort to uncover the conspiracy via a new investigation will be met with an all out effort to discredit those calling for a new investigation if it looked like they were gaining public support.

 

So being willfully blind to errors in your ‘case’ is just handing the oposition an easy win.

 

There’s none so blind as those who will not see.

 

Regards Hamish

Sorry for the italics but it will not do normal for me today……

 

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