Any ideas on a haven?
I can’t speak for everyone, but the reason I’m staying in the US has very little to do with nationalism and nothing to do with guilt over ‘abandoning my country’. I’m staying because 1) my friends and family are here, 2) I still see a lot of unrealized potential in this country and feel it can be better than it is, and 3) I see a chance to make things better here. I accept the possibility that the situation may someday reach the point where it would ultimately cost my family too much to stay, and I’ve already taken measures so they have that option. But there’s something to be said for perseverance in the face of adversity, and it’s adversity that tends to bring out the best in many of us. While I do remember a couple posts in this thread that were critical of people who are thinking of leaving the country, I also recall the majority of those stating their intentions to stay also being quite understanding and supportive of others’ decisions to leave. You make many good points, but the tone of your comments seem to come off as unnecessarily combatitive considering how supportive most posters in this thread have been.
Oh and regarding America’s status in the world, I think this old Dennis Miller quote says it best:
"America may be the best country in the world, but that’s kind of like being the valedictorian of summer school."
as far as a haven does anyone know of a capitalist country?
[quote=joe2baba]as far as a haven does anyone know of a capitalist country?[/quote]
I love the Dennis Miller quote! It has ALWAYS bothered me to hear people spout off the “America Love it or Leave it” or the Sean Hannity “America is the greatest bestest country in the world” nonsense. First of all, I haven’t seen enough of the world to know that. Secondly, so what? That statement is often used as a defense when someone brings up a criticism of our country, as if just because other people are wrong, we must somehow be right?
As far as capitalist countries, well, do you consider America a capitalist country? If so, just about any other country on the planet has a similar economic system, save Cuba and Venezuela. Some have more bureaucracy and less taxes, or some other combination.
Hong Kong is generally seen as the most economically free state. Other nations ranked for more economic freedom than the US include New Zealand, Canada, Ireland, Australia and Singapore. Note that these are all fairly expensive high cost of living countries. I think you could also live pretty freely in a Costa Rica or a Mexico, mainly because the police state isnt as advanced to monitor your every move and extract taxes to the efficient degree that the US and other nations can.
Nations roughly as free as the US economically include Switzerland, UK, Denmark, Chile, Netherlands, Iceland, Estonia, Luxembourg, Finland, Bahrain, Japan, Belgium, Macau, Austria, Cypress, Germany, Sweden, Norway and the Bahamas. For more info see:
Keep in mind that you may not be able to see the difference in incremental changes. IE The us is ranked #8 with a score of 8.02 out of 10. You likely can’t tell much of a difference in countries ranked 7.5 to 8.5, which leaves about 25 choices.
america a capitalist country ????????????
heavens no we have not been even remotely a capitalist country since before lincoln ruined us
My husband and I have backpacked and camped in Hawaii for many years. (My profile photo was taken by the rim of Haleakala crater). Our favorite island is Kauai, and we would often have late night campfire conversations about the pros and cons of living in Hawaii. For those who are familiar with more than the tourist face of the islands, I need not explain the myriad reasons for calling Hawaii home. For those who have not, let me offer this image: after pitching the tent near the precipice of an 800 foot cliff with 12 foot surf crashing below, sitting around the campfire, a few feet from the brink, watching the moon rise over the ocean, listening to the surf, and breathing in the fresh salt air. It just doesn’t get any better than that. . . and moments like that are common, and easily accessible on Kauai.
During our stays, which were sometimes extended, we hiked many of the more remote areas, and found "outdoor living" to be as easy as the trade winds themselves. The climate is so mild, that we often brought only one very light sleeping bag, which usually did not get used. Water is abundant, and so, does not need to be carried. The scenery, of course is breathtaking. Wild food sources are relatively abundant (though you can only eat so much fruit!).
However, I have serious reservations about Hawaii as a home, both then, and especially, now. First, the islands have a very limited carrying capacity, and are currently absurdly dependent on imported goods. Without the availability of cheap oil, the islands are already unsustainably overpopulated. The south Pacific islands have a long history of wars and forced exodus due to limited resources.
Further, for all the outward talk of ohana, beneath the surface, the islands have an ugly racist undercurrent that easily turns violent. We have witnessed this firsthand on more than one occasion. This is no modern phenomenon. Hawaii has a long and colorful history of politics along racial lines, and even genocide. With some of the behavior that we’ve witnessed, it would not be difficult for us to imagine food and resource wars with alliances drawn along racial lines. For those who know Hawaii’s seedy underbelly, it should come as no surprise that haoles (a pejorative term for whites) are resented by almost all other ethnic groups.* I don’t think I’d want to be on the pointy end of that spear after TSHTF.
We have many friends in Hawaii, and I don’t want to come off as though we dislike the islands, or the people who live on them. But we must acknowledge that the islands have a larger-than-usual segment of the population with little moral or ethical integrity. (I suppose this is true of any place where the living is easy). Theft is rampant now, and I can easily imagine that it will only get worse when TSHTF. Drug addiction is also rampant, and I wouldn’t want to be there a couple of weeks after the last heroin shipment arrived.
We have many, many fond memories of Hawaii, and will never forget our experiences there. But as a haven, we’ve ruled it out. More than once, while reflecting on how different the world and our lives will be after the crash, we have talked about how much we’ll miss our semiannual treks in Kauai. But that sentimentality cannot affect our decision about the safest, wisest place to be.
* Although, given Hawaii’s history, I can’t say I blame them.
Has anyone thought about looking at the underlying current of their potential "haven" as c1oudfire has outlined? I’d agree that you should visit the area you want to escape to before jumping.
Small communities are strong and wary of "outsiders" no matter how many "ex-pats" there appear to be. There is a town in North Carolina called Cary. I hear the "locals" say that the name is actually an acronym. It stands for, "Confined Area (for) Relocated Yankees." Depending on who you speak with, there is resentment for the gobbling up of the land mass to build golf courses for the "northern snow-birds" who flock south for the winter.
I personally like the idea of having a longer growing season in the south.
I have also looked at communities in western Mass and I see old, broken down mill towns where the youth roam the streets on the weekends. The towns have "a lot" of deferred maintenance of infrastructure, the cost of tillable farm land is expensive and there is a large Yankee wariness of "outsiders."
So, I imagine, if you are moving from an urban area to a small community, no matter where it is, it might be best to do it sooner rather than later. That way, you give yourself time to become accepted into the community BEFORE TSHTF and lots of folks try and squeeze out to the "country".
My family are "city folks" and it would be impossible to get them to move away because of some "chicken little – The sky is falling" reason. My plan, is to buy some land as a "hunting – vacation" escape then if TSHTF, be able to use it as a "bug-out" location.
Lastly, I understand the comments about why stay around just because you feel "allegiance" to the fatherland. That should never be the reason to stay – anywhere. If you do not feel safe in your surroundings, you should leave. Just look before you leap, and don’t forget the parachute!
FWIW – C.
I have learned something about planning specifics and its that things change. I know it seems obvious right but when tshtf as all of you put it. There isnt going to be any running away so if your planning on leaving now would be the best time. Personally I dont think there will be any secure place to hide away and I dont believe that will solve the problem.
Be prepared…and be prepared for your plan not to work.
By the way this is my first post I have been on this forum for a long time just never said anything so nice to officaly meet all of you if anyone even read this thread anymore. Im probably much younger then all of you but I still understand the situation were in.
Welcome MDR. Don’t be shy in the forums — jump right in. I’d be interested to hear the perspective of a "younger" person (or persons if there are more young-ish lurkers out there)…
Viva — Sager
I live in rural southeaster Oklahoma with my children, a daughter, 20, and a son, 16. Now my daughter will be graduating NSU, and she is pretty smart, and we have had many conversations about the current state of the economy and the last Great Depression, as well as other matters. It helped matters considerably that a few years ago, we had to live through a prolonged ice storm. So she understands my need to stock up, even if my son doesn’t. While it is relatively safe from a lot of things where I live, my son will soon be 17 and then 18, and I believe by then there will be another draft, and that is why I am getting him more and more familiar with Jamaica. That island grows everything big, and I have made friends with Canadians and Americans who have already moved there. I did seven years in the Army, and screw them, they can’t have my son.
If things get really bad, we stay in place. If it is possible, we go to Jamaica.