And the Swine Flu won’t go away

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  • Thu, Nov 05, 2009 - 11:47pm

    #191
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    Re: And the Swine Flu won’t go away

Plague is a disease caused by the bacteria yersinia pestis.  It is transmitted by fleas. It is endemic in the american southwest where we see a few cases every year.  It produces toxins that inhibit coagulation in mammals (rats, humans, etc)  It can manifest as bubonic (lymph nodes infected and swollen), septicemic (bloodstream infection) or pneumonic (lung infection).  The lung infection is remarkable in that people with pneumonia can infect other people through droplets of mucous caused by coughing, and does not require the flea vector for transmission.

It can be treated by tetracycline type antibiotics.  This disease has been with us a long time and is very lethal, but unless you are living among a large number of infected fleas (usually infected after feeding on infected rats) you are probably safe.  Our sanitary conditions have improved remarkably since the middle ages when this disease killed millions.

This disease is nothing new and is about the same severity as when we close down a school for disinfection after a kid gets meningococcal meningitis.

It is not a good biological warfare agent, because it is difficult to transmit — kind of like anthrax which is very deadly but difficult to spread.  It requires very difficult to produce aerosols and powders to transmit in biologic warfare and is not generally transmitted from person to person.  But if you see the mosquito fogger or the crop duster tooling through your neighborhood in the dead of winter — sucks to be you.  sorry Cry

  • Thu, Nov 05, 2009 - 11:55pm

    #192
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    Re: And the Swine Flu won’t go away

Wait a minute isn’t this a swine flu thread? How did we get to Plague?

 

  • Fri, Nov 06, 2009 - 01:03am

    #193
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    Re: And the Swine Flu won’t go away

[quote=docmims]

Wait a minute isn’t this a swine flu thread? How did we get to Plague?

[/quote]

I think that we’ve moved on from the aporkalypse to the apocalypse, Doc . . . Cool

  • Fri, Nov 06, 2009 - 01:10am

    #194
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    Re: And the Swine Flu won’t go away

[quote=docmims]

Plague is a disease caused by the bacteria yersinia pestis.  It is transmitted by fleas. It is endemic in the american southwest where we see a few cases every year.  It produces toxins that inhibit coagulation in mammals (rats, humans, etc)  It can manifest as bubonic (lymph nodes infected and swollen), septicemic (bloodstream infection) or pneumonic (lung infection).  The lung infection is remarkable in that people with pneumonia can infect other people through droplets of mucous caused by coughing, and does not require the flea vector for transmission.

It can be treated by tetracycline type antibiotics.  This disease has been with us a long time and is very lethal, but unless you are living among a large number of infected fleas (usually infected after feeding on infected rats) you are probably safe.  Our sanitary conditions have improved remarkably since the middle ages when this disease killed millions.

This disease is nothing new and is about the same severity as when we close down a school for disinfection after a kid gets meningococcal meningitis.

It is not a good biological warfare agent, because it is difficult to transmit — kind of like anthrax which is very deadly but difficult to spread.  It requires very difficult to produce aerosols and powders to transmit in biologic warfare and is not generally transmitted from person to person.  But if you see the mosquito fogger or the crop duster tooling through your neighborhood in the dead of winter — sucks to be you.  sorry Cry

[/quote]

Got that, but it’s my understanding that the pneumonic plague is when YP goes pulmonary, and is droplet spread, and therefore more contagious, though certainly easier to contain than a virus. . .

Agreed that it probably makes a poor bioterror agent, in the sense of actually wiping out civilizations, but it still would be enough to cause panic and provide the rationale for martial law . . . which, I believe, may be the goal here . . . On my site there’s a post that includes the Ukrainian head of state calling for a whole new form of government . . . after we get through this tough epidemial patch . . . sounds like a coup d’etat, to me . . . .

But, then, I’m no longer the naive, trusting soul I used to be . . .

 

  • Fri, Nov 06, 2009 - 01:35am

    #195
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    Re: And the Swine Flu won’t go away

[quote=Cloudfire]

[quote=docmims]

Plague is a disease caused by the bacteria yersinia pestis.  It is transmitted by fleas. It is endemic in the american southwest where we see a few cases every year.  It produces toxins that inhibit coagulation in mammals (rats, humans, etc)  It can manifest as bubonic (lymph nodes infected and swollen), septicemic (bloodstream infection) or pneumonic (lung infection).  The lung infection is remarkable in that people with pneumonia can infect other people through droplets of mucous caused by coughing, and does not require the flea vector for transmission.

It can be treated by tetracycline type antibiotics. [/quote]

Got that, but it’s my understanding that the pneumonic plague is when YP goes pulmonary, and is droplet spread, and therefore more contagious, though certainly easier to contain than a virus. . .

Agreed that it probably makes a poor bioterror agent, in the sense of actually wiping out civilizations, but it still would be enough to cause panic and provide the rationale for martial law . . . which, I believe, may be the goal here . . . On my site there’s a post that includes the Ukrainian head of state calling for a whole new form of government . . . after we get through this tough epidemial patch . . . sounds like a coup d’etat, to me . . . .

But, then, I’m no longer the naive, trusting soul I used to be . . .[/quote]

yes, but it is not unique.  Most people who die from flu die due to pulmonary infections, it is just a different manifestation of the disease.  Most kids who get pneumococcus have uri symptoms, but every now and then one gets pneumonia or epiglotitis and dies.  Diseases can have different manifestations depending on the organ system attacked.  So although these unfortunate people have the pneumonia complication of plague and can spread it to others, it is still the same bacteria. (luckily it is very inefficiently spread through coughing — ulike flu which is very easily spread that way.)

I’m not saying the chinese or russians couldn’t develop an efficiently spreading plague.  I just doubt they would try it out on their own people first.  they would spread it in some isolated 3rd world country.

  • Fri, Nov 06, 2009 - 01:40am

    #196
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    Re: And the Swine Flu won’t go away

[quote=docmims]

yes, but it is not unique.  Most people who die from flu die due to pulmonary infections, it is just a different manifestation of the disease.  Most kids who get pneumococcus have uri symptoms, but every now and then one gets pneumonia or epiglotitis and dies.  Diseases can have different manifestations depending on the organ system attacked.  So although these unfortunate people have the pneumonia complication of plague and can spread it to others, it is still the same bacteria. (luckily it is very inefficiently spread through coughing — ulike flu which is very easily spread that way.)

[/quote]

I think that you and I look at it that way, Doc, but I think the general populace hear the word, “plague”, and go “eeek!” . . .

  • Fri, Nov 06, 2009 - 05:55pm

    #197
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    Re: And the Swine Flu won’t go away

  There are 90 out 0f 300 kids home from school in our area this week .  Many parents under age 40 getting it too.  They are not even testing unless the people have to be hospitalized for dehydration or need breathing treatment .    We should have it  over soon .   Not one death .  They had 100 shots available  I think the healthcare workers and teachers were first to get it .

  • Fri, Nov 06, 2009 - 09:12pm

    #198
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    Re: And the Swine Flu won’t go away

[quote=Full Moon]

  There are 90 out 0f 300 kids home from school in our area this week .  Many parents under age 40 getting it too.  They are not even testing unless the people have to be hospitalized for dehydration or need breathing treatment .    We should have it  over soon .   Not one death .  They had 100 shots available  I think the healthcare workers and teachers were first to get it .

[/quote]

yes i think the arguments about the safety of the vaccine are moot, because you can’t get the vaccine even if you want it.  By the time it gets here the epidemic will be winding down.

  • Sat, Nov 07, 2009 - 03:22am

    #199
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    Re: And the Swine Flu won’t go away

[quote=docmims]

[quote=Full Moon]

  There are 90 out 0f 300 kids home from school in our area this week .  Many parents under age 40 getting it too.  They are not even testing unless the people have to be hospitalized for dehydration or need breathing treatment .    We should have it  over soon .   Not one death .  They had 100 shots available  I think the healthcare workers and teachers were first to get it .

[/quote]

yes i think the arguments about the safety of the vaccine are moot, because you can’t get the vaccine even if you want it.  By the time it gets here the epidemic will be winding down.

[/quote]

I sometimes wonder if the vaccine shortage could be a serious problem for us if there was a serious shift in the lethality of this virus, and the WHO decided to stretch the vaccine severely with adjuvants, like squalene, to meet demand.. 

  • Sat, Nov 07, 2009 - 06:52am

    #200
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    Re: And the Swine Flu won’t go away

[quote=Cloudfire]I sometimes wonder if the vaccine shortage could be a serious problem for us if there was a serious shift in the lethality of this virus, and the WHO decided to stretch the vaccine severely with adjuvants, like squalene, to meet demand.. 

[/quote]

yes that has been my point from my first post.  If this was a “real” epidemic of a serious disease.  We would have been screwed.  CDC was the keystone cops responding to this epidemic.

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