Americanism

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  • Tue, Oct 12, 2010 - 04:19am

    #21
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    Re: Americanism

littleone:

Great video.  I agree with it 100%.

However, I do not agree that all laws apply only to corporations.  There are laws for people and laws for corporations.  The unfortunate situation we now face is that corporations make the laws that apply to them as well as the ones which apply to us.  This is a** backwards and the situation exists because corporations have more money than people and corruption reigns supreme in America.

JK121:

Socialism by any other name is still Socialism and this is true no matter how much you continue to deny it.  Denying the truth is an attribute of a weak mind and unfortunately, from my perspective, you are a master at this.

Going back to the Constitution means going back to the rule of law.  Do you really stand in opposition to a society where there is equal justice under the law.  If not, then what you are proposing and what you stand for is anarchy.  To be perfectly honest, I really do not know what you are proposing and what you stand for, because all you do is tell me I am wrong and to go watch one of your favorite videos.  When I do, the only thing I get out of them is “Socialism”; a morally bankrupt and discredited economic system.  Of course, when I reach this inevitable conclusion, you tell me I do not understand things and I am brainwashed and living in the past.

It is rapidly becoming clear that it is impossible to carry on an intelligent discussion with you because you do not discuss things in good faith.  You want it all your way and deny what is obviously true thinking that this will make sense out of things which do not make sense.  And yes, I understand that I am making no sense here and fail to grasp what you are saying.  Unfortunately, I don’t think anyone can grasp what you are saying because you never say anything graspable.

  • Tue, Oct 12, 2010 - 01:40pm

    #22
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    Re: Americanism

 

Well at 67 signs of senility are truly taking over.  Rule of law, and laws written my man, are attempts at providing solutions to problems that humans have not solved yet, obviously you still want to live in a world where these laws exist as opposed to designing the flaws of humanity out of the equation. 

Tell me citizeal, exactly how does a law stop crime?  

  • Tue, Oct 12, 2010 - 02:56pm

    #23
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    Re: Americanism

Citizenal,

Here is my source on corporate law: Jordan Maxwell — The Law Part 1/24

 

JK121,

Yes…laws do not stop crime or coercion.

 

Here is a reflection on law from THE PROPHET(1923) by Khalil Gibran:

Laws

Then a lawyer said, “But what of our Laws, master?”

And he answered:

You delight in laying down laws,

Yet you delight more in breaking them.

Like children playing by the ocean who build sand-towers with constancy and then destroy them with laughter.

But while you build your sand-towers the ocean brings more sand to the shore,

And when you destroy them, the ocean laughs with you.

Verily the ocean laughs always with the innocent.

But what of those to whom life is not an ocean, and man-made laws are not sand-towers,

But to whom life is a rock, and the law a chisel with which they would carve it in their own likeness?

What of the cripple who hates dancers?

What of the ox who loves his yoke and deems the elk and deer of the forest stray and vagrant things?

What of the old serpent who cannot shed his skin, and calls all others naked and shameless?

And of him who comes early to the wedding-feast, and when over-fed and tired goes his way saying that all feasts are violation and all feasters law-breakers?

What shall I say of these save that they too stand in the sunlight, but with their backs to the sun?

They see only their shadows, and their shadows are their laws.

And what is the sun to them but a caster of shadows?

And what is it to acknowledge the laws but to stoop down and trace their shadows upon the earth?

But you who walk facing the sun, what images drawn on the earth can hold you?

You who travel with the wind, what weathervane shall direct your course?

What man’s law shall bind you if you break your yoke but upon no man’s prison door?

What laws shall you fear if you dance but stumble against no man’s iron chains?

And who is he that shall bring you to judgment if you tear off your garment yet leave it in no man’s path?

People of Orphalese, you can muffle the drum, and you can loosen the strings of the lyre, but who shall command the skylark not to sing?

source: http://leb.net/gibran/  then…Works / The Prophet(1923) / Laws

 

-littleone

 

 

  • Wed, Oct 13, 2010 - 02:25am

    #24
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    Re: Americanism

[quote=JK121]

 

Well at 67 signs of senility are truly taking over.  Rule of law, and laws written my man, are attempts at providing solutions to problems that humans have not solved yet, obviously you still want to live in a world where these laws exist as opposed to designing the flaws of humanity out of the equation. 

Tell me citizeal, exactly how does a law stop crime?  

[/quote]

Actually, I don’t see any signs of senility here at all.  I see the expression of a lot of wisdom and experience from a lifetime of accomplishment.

I’m not sure I’m following you here, JK121?  Is your proposal that laws serve no purpose … and that you have the key for designing the flaws of humanity out of the equation?  Every time in history someone has made that sort of claim, it has culminated in disaster.

 

  • Wed, Oct 13, 2010 - 11:03am

    #25
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    Re: Americanism

 

AO, what I am saying is that we are tackling human problems with the same old system of politics, laws, and money.  It’s not an American, Russian, Iranian, German, or Jewish problem, we have human problems and we are still holding up contrived outdated methods.  

I am not here to give solutions to the flaws we see in humanity, just guide and get the idea moving that we need more than The Constitution and ethical leaders to do so.  

I’ve herd nothing of true substance besides what a resource based economy purposes.  Imagine educating children when they are born into another paradigm, one that does not indoctrinate the concept that we need to compete with each other to survive, or use people in anyways possible to make money off of them.  Looks like congress has been doing that for many years, you really want to see that for many more generations?  

People can change and so can society, it was not that long ago where it was unacceptable for a black man to be seen with a white women or go to school with whites, now we accept it and realize it’s no big deal, it was that old outdated thinking that held humanity back.  

  • Wed, Oct 13, 2010 - 04:26pm

    #26
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    Re: Americanism

[quote=littleone]

Here is my source on corporate law: Jordan Maxwell — The Law Part 1/24

[/quote]

littleone – here is the two and three quarter hour google edition with actual footage of Jordan speaking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jJKue2Ff6o:

  • Wed, Oct 13, 2010 - 04:40pm

    #27
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    Re: Americanism

Radishcake, thank you!Smile

I hope others will take some time to review the information Jordan is presenting. I just came across it myself…and…WOW!

 

-littleone

  • Thu, Oct 14, 2010 - 01:07am

    #28
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    Re: Americanism

JK121,

Is there a working test case of the society you are proposing in a microcosm someplace on the globe or are you speaking theory here? 

  • Thu, Oct 14, 2010 - 01:40am

    #29
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    Re: Americanism

Sorry for being gone so long.

AO, I’m with you and am having a hard time understanding with JK121 is saying.  My perceptions is that he thinks he possesses a superior kind of knowledge and that those who do not have it are inferior to him.  To maintain this artificially contrived stats quo, he cuts down everything everyone else has to say and only gives us hints at to what his superior knowledge is.  Why share it if doing so means you are no longer superior.

For example, I offered that returning to the rule of law will solve many of our problems.  He counters that laws are written by man and are attempt to solve unsolved problems and does this because he heard some other pea brain say it first.  He then implies that my inferior intellect keeps me bound to a world where laws exist and instead of laws we should design the flaws of humanity out of the equation.  Now if this isn’t a load of unmitigated bull excrement then nothing is.

First of all, laws are not written to solve problems.  Instead they are written to control and moderate human behavior.  A flaw of humanity is that we murder each other.  This is why we have laws against murder.  This being the case, as JK121 would like, let’s get rid of all the laws prohibiting murder.   Great now lets have JK121 tell what he would design to rid humanity of the crime of murder.  C’mon JK121, lets us all see a little bit of your superior intelligence and tell us how you would deal with the crime of murder in your ideal world.

And while your smoking this pipe also ponder this; laws do not stop crime.  They exist so law enforcement agencies can stop crime.  That’s why they call them “law enforcement” agencies.  Without laws, law enforcement has no basis for acting.  Now I have another question for you; if your knowledge and intellect is so superior to mine, how come you did not know and understand this simple truth?

The bottom line is that JK121 believes he holds the solution to all our problems and to validate this assumption he points to how screwed up things are now and in our past.  If only the world would see and accept his solutions our future would be bright and rosy.  Where he goes wrong is that there are a multitude of possible solutions to the mess we have gotten ourselves into and he has offered nothing to convince me or anyone else that what he is offering will work and is the best possible course of action.  Indeed, it may well be, but until he tells us how his solution will be implemented and how it will work once implemented, then he is nothing but a charlatan haunting these boards to feed his over inflated ego.

In closing, I would like to add that if all JK121 has to offer us is a new kind of Socialism then we all can rest assured that my assessment of him is 100% correct.  Oh I forgot, its not Socialism if we do not call it that.  Now that’s superior knowledge for you! 

  • Thu, Oct 14, 2010 - 01:29pm

    #30
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    Re: Americanism

I see shades of a debate over the perfectibility of mankind – a very dangerous notion for sure. I’m afraid that if we are speaking English, we will always have difficulty expressing ourselves. It is the only language I know, and yet I find it quite clumsy and difficult of expression, and worse our language has been co-opted by every interest, religious political and corporate, so that our words have been muddied to meaninglessness in the name of ensnaring our minds. I saw the Sun at Dawn watching the Tide on an Ivory beach.

That being said, until we have a better language at our disposal with which to carry out our discourse we’ll just have to take care to be clear as possible and to chose our words with care. The word that I’m going to throw out for consideration is a popular word in the imagery of the United States, but a word that like so many others has become virtually meaningless: liberty.

In order to really understand a word one must have a solid experience and an associated mental and emotional imagery to give the word meaning. Failing that, one cannot really grasp the meaning. I fear many who have grown up in this monstrosity of a so-called culture probably have only a very weak concept of liberty at best, for it has been the name of a statue and a word on the coins and not an experience with meaningful emotional association with what it is actually meant to express, perhaps associated instead with imagery from the United Statesian mythos. Likewise Freedom, a word which has seemingly been given virtually its opposite for a generally understood meaning.

To the point, if we value liberty for what it is meant to mean, then we should think long and hard about what it really requires of us. Liberty is primarily a state of personal responsibility; it is not a guarantee of security or safety in any measure, for anything that would attempt or promise to guarantee those things would be an infringement of liberty. That is what laws are. The question then becomes, to what extent are we willing to sacrifice liberty for security or safety. As conceived and put forth, the United States’ original laws gave a great deal of room for liberty at the expense of much security and safety for they are written in such a way as to limit not the individual but the government.

I don’t care to rehash the complications of history, so suffice with that oversimplification. The bill of rights was made to satisfy people that government was restrained, not to restrain people. If that’s what Americanism is, then I’m all for it.

But there’s another kind of Americanism, referring to Americans that were Americans when the invaders were British, French, Dutch, Spanish, and Portuguese. Just as it is United States centric to say that “Americanism” is a purely United Statesian concept, for there are two Americas and several nation states in both, so too there were countless different indigenous cultures and tribes prior to the European invasion, and still several that survive in various states of liberty or assimilation/dissolution. One group in particular, a confederation of eight tribes provided the inspiration for the United States and its constitution (though the constitution is said by the eurocentrists to be inspired by the Magna Carta). This confederation still exists to this day, having been present for centuries before the United States, though its territory is claimed by the United States and Canada.

The primary thing that I hear time and time again from traditional Indians is responsibility. Each person must be responsible, and this is not about following a set of rules delegated from above, but about being able to think for oneself and understanding the necessity for taking care of the world and of the needs of the community and of future generations. If that’s Americanism, then I’m all for it.

Of course the Indians were systematically destroyed and displaced until there was a mere remnant trapped in concentration camps – I mean reservations. Once there their cultural practices were forbidden, their traditional ways forbidden. Their languages were taken from them and then their children were stolen from them. The children who came out of the boarding schools were no longer their own.

Now observe how our own language has been polluted, traditional ways displaced, and our children go off to schools where they come back strange, and somehow stupider than they were when we were raising them. Progress has somehow dissolved our families and our communities so that we all sit in our separate boxes doing much the same things by ourselves, lonely but we don’t know our neighbors. Even when we spend time together we are rarely together, each separately staring at the same screen flashing images into our brains put there by people whose primary interests aren’t the preservation of our real world relationships.

Genocide does not require complete annihilation of a race, just a culture. The genocide against humanity is almost complete, for few are able to practice being human and few know what it is to be human. All human cultures are being annihilated. The so-called global culture is nothing of the sort.

So perhaps if there is any critical thing to do it isn’t so much in restoring a failing nation state, but in restoring ourselves to a state of being human. There’s not any one way to do this, but history offers a lot of ideas to consider, and there may be novel ideas as well that are worth considering. I’ll take a path that offers me liberty, and I’ll accept the responsibility that it rightly comes with. I cannot thrive on my own, so either a community will form where I am or else I’ll have to find one. I would rather not see vast tracts of land under a single authority, and in any case no human scale revolution will come from above – only further destruction of our humanity.

Economist Manfred Max-Neef offers a list of things that he observes make people wealthy. The list does not include money, however money may or may not play a part in one’s wealth according to his scale. That depends on how one’s society is structured. Likewise one could have a great deal of money and fail to meet the requirements of his list: food and shelter, security and protection, affection, to participate and to share, to understand, to create, to reflect, a sense of identity, and freedom of choice.

Our basic human needs are the same wherever we are and whoever we are. There are countless ways to meet these needs, manifested in countless different societies. There is no one way to solve everyone’s problems, no perfect solution for humanity. As we disallow separate cultures and force each and everyone into the same system, we are destroying everyone’s ability to meet our human needs and in so doing stripping us each of our humanity.

As for what some of the remnant of indigenous cultures are doing, consider total immersion education practiced by New Zeland natives, introduced to the Lakotah nation by Russell Means, and taken up from there by the Gaelic cultures of Scotland. The idea is that to save their culture, their humanity, they take back their children from the system and raise them themselves in the traditional way. For those of us whose tribal roots have been completely severed, we may still find that our survival starts with taking back our children…

Just a thought.

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