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A gun is not enough

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  • Mon, Jun 10, 2019 - 07:03pm   (Reply to #15)

    #21

    dtrammel

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    Ferfal over Selco

I read and appreciate both Ferfal and Selco for their descriptions of life on the end of collapse. I happen to think Feral’s description of post collapse Argentina is more likely than Selco’s description of civil war like Bosnia.

Ferfal painted a picture where the core of the city, where the Elite lived still had police and security, while the suburbs and other sections had security to a varying degree. His book is a must have for anyone preparing for a collapsed future.

He gives good example of the way society changes. Imagine women giving up jewelry because to wear it, means you make yourself a target. Necklaces ripped from necks and rings cut from your hand (with the finger). Imagine having to circle the block until someone in your home could come out and cover you with a rifle while you unloaded the groceries, less you got robbed from car to door.

Imagine having to practice drive through road blocks on interstate off ramps when thieves set them up to rob you.

He also has some scary examples for those of you planning rural bug out locations, as gangs would often target those for robbery and since the neighbors were distant, could take their time making you give up your goods, with torture and other things.

If things start declining like Argentina did, I would rather be in a urban situation where my neighbors would come and help protect me than out where no one would come.

  • Mon, Jun 10, 2019 - 07:41pm

    #22
    capesurvivor

    capesurvivor

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    Incident known personally to me

A decade or two ago in Boston, a very highly ranked karate instructor with his own school was confronted by a guy with a pistol while outside his home. He was marched inside and  forced to give over cash and jewelry. After he complied, he tried to take down the gun man because he said (later) that “he could see in his eyes that he was going to kill” him. He was shot multiple times and grievously wounded but survived. This resulted in two entirely opposite reactions by his students and the karate community. One group thought that the martial arts had saved his life and was impressed. The other group said “what am studying this for if I’m likely to be killed using it in contemporary situations”? This is an interesting situation where the same fact gives rise to two possibly plausible beliefs.

  • Mon, Jun 10, 2019 - 10:33pm

    #23

    davefairtex

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    your kung fu is nothing special

Its tough to have a school.  If you are the Sifu and you get robbed, you are at high risk of losing credibility with your students – if you have not educated them on guns and expectations as to what situations these skills apply to.

The old Hong Kong Kung Fu movies have these situations where a challenger comes in and accuses the Sifu’s skills as being below standard.  The standard insult: “Your Kung Fu is Nothing Special!”  But it was not a laughing matter to the Sifu: his livelihood is now on the line.  If he loses – he is humiliated, his school gets shut down, and his business is finished.

From my understanding, this sort of thing actually did happen, here in America – at least it happened 40 years ago, according to the testimony of someone I know well.  Someone comes to the school to challenge the Sifu; windows and doors are shut, the challenger must get through the senior students, and if he wins, Sifu must fight.  And hopefully win.

The alternative is that the challenger gets to basically close the school down.

[Stories like this also motivate the senior students to train hard!  After all…one day someone might walk through the door and utter the magic words: “Your Kung Fu is Nothing Special!”]

So getting robbed at gunpoint – perhaps the teacher felt a similar fate might befall him too, once word got out.  “Your Karate is Nothing Special.”

Martial arts are useful when dealing with unarmed, untrained people.  They also can help keep you fit, and flexible, and able to mentally keep going after someone hits you. They also teach you that your brain lies to you – that your body is capable of a lot more than you think.

But there is a reason why they call guns “equalizers.” As we know, it takes little training to be able to put a hole in someone – especially at close range.

All you can really do is put the odds in your favor.

Meanwhile, enjoy the process.  Its fun to train!  We all spend a lot more time on the journey than we do at the destination.  Wherever that happens to be!  If you are having fun, you’ll spend more time doing it, you’ll learn faster, you won’t be so stressed…etc.

  • Tue, Jun 11, 2019 - 05:36am

    #24

    sand_puppy

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    Long range fight on open farmland

I would love to know what kind of rifle you farmers like, Robie.  Threats coming across a couple of hundred acres of open pasture-land  are completely different tools than those up close.  In the crowded slums of Manila a little 3” blade strapped to a forearm might be the most useful weapon.

And the rest of you more civilized PPer can understand that this is what some of us do when we are apprehensive about future dangers.  We train with weapons.

 

  • Tue, Jun 11, 2019 - 05:51am

    #25
    Hotrod

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    Farmers rifle

7mm

  • Tue, Jun 11, 2019 - 10:35am   (Reply to #24)

    #26
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

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    re: Long range fight on open farmland

My truck gun is a 700rem sa chambered in .243Ackley Improved. 12twist lilja stabilizing an 85 sierra HP gameking with 3600+fps muzzle velocity.

i hunt the pipeline(1200yards) with a 300LWM (wildcat round) 11 twist 3 groove Lilja and a 210 Berger VLD @ 3100fps over 73 grains of reloader22.

Most of uninitiated would be happy with a savage in 7mm (hotrod is right). the .284 cal. has alot of good bullets, custom and otherwise.

My game was benchrest, 1000yrd specifically, and have numerous state and a couple national titles, International Benchrest Shooters.

  • Tue, Jun 11, 2019 - 10:44am

    #27
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

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    current interest

is in subsonics (different ballistics equations).

contrary to another opinion, practice with a bolt action will yield speed and accuracy to rival most loose actioned semi-autos and exceed some. I have seen muscle memory and keen eyesight put 5 bullets into 5″ at over 1/2 mile under 15 seconds with a single shot rifle. The shooter went on to win the NC state champ night match. It is a hoot to compete in the dark, think no wind!

  • Tue, Jun 11, 2019 - 12:18pm

    #28

    Chris Martenson

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    Better listen to Robie… :)

When someone can tell you about the make and characteristics of their barrels, as well as the speed of their bullets, you know you are dealing with someone with a lot of experience.

My latest ‘fun gun’ is a Ruger Precision .22 lr.  “Precision .22?” you ask?

Yep.  Heavy floating barrel, light 2-stage trigger, bolt action…all of which means 2 things – it is surprisingly accurate, and it has as close to zero kick as anything I’ve ever shot, including my pellet gun.

Great gun to introduce the basic principles of long range shooting to Evie and my son Simon.  Cheap to shoot.  And it’s a real hoot hitting things at 100 and 200 yards very reliably.  Heck, at 100 yards the bullet hols quite often touch and I haven’t even yet tried the special match grade ammo I finally sourced (from Lapua).

But I’m a certified plinker compared to the people who shoot long range matches, like Robie.  That’s some serious skill and equipment coming together there.

 

  • Tue, Jun 11, 2019 - 04:31pm   (Reply to #28)

    #30

    dtrammel

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    Book Smarts versus Common Sense

When someone can tell you about the make and characteristics of their barrels, as well as the speed of their bullets, you know you are dealing with someone with a lot of experience.

With all do respect to you Chris, Robie might have all the book learning in the World about bullet speeds, drops, powder charges and all the rest of what it takes to be an expert at precision shooting from a bench rest and be utterly clueless about what is needed for good defensive shooting.

I grew up on precision shooting, first on a old bolt action .22, then larger calibers. My first military rifle was a M-14, and later a M-16. Now I have two defensive pistols, a Tarus Ultralite in .38 and a Tarus 92 in 9mm both of which I regularly shoot and train to reload. I can put 90% of my bullets into the 9 ring out to 20 yards (60-70 at 30 yds) but I couldn’t tell you my barrel twists or bullet weights or speeds. Does that make me less of an expert on defensive arms?

One of my best friends used to teach firearms training in the Missouri Correctional system. Him you could talk bullet weights, powder charges, heavy barrels and two stage triggers all day long. He was a bit of a nerd about those things and loved to go to the range to do long distance shooting with a heavy caliber rifle.

He carried a small frame .45 as a defensive gun.

Have you ever seen Youtube videos of Lars Anderson shoot a bow? He is absolutely incredible with his speed. Does that mean that a bow and arrow is an ideal defensive weapon? No, and we would all doubt anyone who said so.

So too would most people doubt a person saying defend your home with a bolt action rifle. Someone beating down my door will hear more than one 12 ga shotgun getting racked and ready to fire by the people inside.

You yourself earlier mentioned the combat course you shoot on. Would you seriously consider using that Ruger .22 rifle to run that course in anything but for a bit of fun? No you wouldn’t. And no, you wouldn’t do a combat course with a bolt action rifle, in a heavy caliber and a suppressor.

I grew up shooting for precision, and until my eyes got bad, loved nothing more to try for shoots out to 1000 yards or try putting two bullets in the same hole. I have on occasional shot “smiley face bullet patterns” for S&grins.

I don’t doubt Robie’s expertise at using a specialty weapon, in a very limited situation and getting results. What I question is whether that expertise means he has expertise in something completely different, like picking defensive guns. When his first choice for a defensive weapon in this thread was said bolt action, heavy caliber suppressed rifle, I have to believe he doesn’t know what he is talking about.

What is the old saying, “For a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail”?

There is a reason that all the militaries in the World arm their soldiers with assault rifles and in close assault, submachine guns, and relegate sniper rifles to the specialty troops for limited situations where you have some distance

Sure having a long distance weapon would be useful when taking on mobs of starving people on foot, crossing large fields of low grass. Especially if you were in the defense and were in a fortified location. A few well placed shots will run them off.

The problem is in the first parts of the coming collapse you won’t be dealing with hungry people on food, you will be dealing with well organized gangs in vehicles who roll up on your home and threaten you at under a fifty yards. In that situation it is going to be rate of fire and lots of it. (And more than a few well placed explosives)

That’s if you are lucky enough to have bought a bug out location and had time to get to it. And have additional people to back you up.

For the other 90% of us, we will be in an urban situation where there are lots of people who will kill you for the pack of cigarettes in your pocket. In that situation, being able to pull out a pistol and fighting them off will be of utmost importance.

Having a fancy rifle and obvious means to supply it will just have thieves following you home to raid your place in the night.

I’d much rather learn from the few that have lived such a situation in real life, like Ferfal and Selco, who talk about how dirty and brutal it all gets than take the advice of someone who is an expert in something that doesn’t suit the situation and hasn’t lived it.

Peak Prosperity should be honest when people are giving out bad advice no matter how long they have been here.

Robie, sorry I got your name wrong in my first post. Not my intent.

  • This reply was modified 1 week ago by  dtrammel.
  • This reply was modified 1 week ago by  dtrammel.
  • Wed, Jun 12, 2019 - 04:07am

    #30
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

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    Defensive vs offensive weaponry

would have been a better title to a number of posts here, I would have found less hubris in them if so.

In my situation ( a poor and reluctant typist) to require a defensive weapon implies I’ve been sleeping.

Offense can be a very good defense.

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