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A gun is not enough

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  • Sat, Jun 08, 2019 - 07:32pm   (Reply to #10)



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    re: Awareness buys you time; time buys you options

I have an LTC, have studied several martial arts, fenced in college, and taken several escrima knife fighting courses. That said, at my somewhat advanced age and health situation, I like to carry the Unbreakable Umbrella (TM) ( no financial relationship) which can easily be used to whack or poke some one, is intimidating even to a knife holder, and will give you time to get to your gun.

  • Sun, Jun 09, 2019 - 12:54am



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    Unprepared is unprepared, no matter the tool.

“The point the instructor was making, which I attempted to repeat, is that the probability is rather low (~rare) that any one (average) gun owner (ie, not professional use) would (a) both be in a place that allowed conceal carry, (b) are indeed carrying (eg, did not leave it in the trunk) and (c) would successfully draw the firearm before being directly attacked was rare.  Too many things have to go right for any one person, a statistically different point than observing in a large dataset that there are successes.”

The disinterest in training properly with a firearm will also be the same with Krav Maga for that same person.  The person that has a CHL, and leaves their pistol in the trunk of the car will be the same person that is undisciplined in trying to train for competence in Krav Maga – get it?  That is a concealed carrier that lacks the necessary training and mindset to use a firearm effectively.  They would be the same with Grav Maga.

You have no understanding in what goes into self defense training with a firearm.  Self defense training with a firearm does not teach you how to shoot, but instead teaches you how to fight with a firearm.  Awareness is always required for survival in a predatory environment even if you aren’t armed.  That part is correct.  But to imply that a martial artist can recover from an ambush better than a trained concealed carrier shows your naivety.

A criminal attempts to catch a target by surprise because they know that most people will just collapse at that point and become submissive.  You are presuming that a martial artist will have the mindset to fight back.  So will a trained carrier.  I can present my weapon with one hand while fending off the attacker with the other.  It takes one second or less. I can bet you far more than you own, that bringing my pistol into action will cause the perp to disengage, assuming I even give him the chance to do so.  You on the other hand yelling “I KNOW KRAV MAGA” will make him laugh.

Someone adequately trained in concealed carry will also be trained in the mindset and awareness needed to control their immediate surrounding environment – same as a Krav Maga expert.

A martial art is indeed a useful asset to have in your repertoire (and Krav Maga is a good one), but not at the expense of being armed.  It’s plain from the fact that police are trained in the use of firearms that expertise with a firearm can be gained much faster than with a martial art.  I can take and train someone to competently protect themselves with a handgun in 8 to 10 hours (and I’m not even a trained instructor).  You can’t do that with a martial art and arrive at the same level of effectiveness within the same time frame..  Not by a long shot (no pun intended).

One last thing.  Training with a firearm empowers the physically weak individual to defend themselves.  Training in martial arts for a 70 year old is not going to happen.  They can no longer take the training injuries.  Not so, for defensive handgun training.

BTW, the IDF (Israeli Defense Force) have standing orders for all pistol carriers to never have a round chambered.  For them to get their pistols into action they would have to draw and then rack the pistol slide to chamber a round (just like they do in Hollywood).  This is done, they believe, for SAFETY!  They don’t trust their men and women in the handling of a firearm.  In the US police and civilians alike are trained to carry with a round chambered.  It is just as safe, because we are trained to handle a loaded and unloaded firearm the same way – in our training every firearm is considered loaded and should be handled as such.  If you are trained to always think your firearm is unloaded, then you are headed for a future “negligent discharge”.  Trainers here in the US look down their nose at the unloaded chamber requirement.  I mention all this just to point out that having served in the IDF does not alone make them an expert in all areas of self defense.

  • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by Texonian.
  • Sun, Jun 09, 2019 - 05:10am

    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

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    Training, training, training

I consider it a great responsibility to carry concealed.  I’ve thought through the circumstances under which I would draw and they are very few.

I will basically only draw to protect life and limb, but never property.

At the range yesterday we had two separate rounds of steel plate shooting and I discovered that a 2 week gap in being at the range was enough to degrade my pistol skills a bit.

These are very fun shoots, but also instructive in what I learn about my skills vs others, and where my gaps are.  The set-up was five targets, shot in any order except a red one  which had to be shot last.

In the first set up they ranged from 10 yards to 17 yards and were widely dispersed (think 120 degree sweep angle).  We had to draw from a surrender position (hands above shoulders) when the timer beeper went off and then shoot all five targets as rapidly as possible.

The best shooter there is the same guy every week who got through the course with average times of around 4.2 seconds.  Considering that the draw-to-first-shot requires 1.3 to 1.5 seconds (if you are really fast, maybe 1.1) that leaves ~0.7 seconds per remaining target to achieve that time of ~4 seconds.   I know that doesn’t seem particularly fast to speed shooters but there’s a lot of travel time between the plates.  My times were mid 5 seconds at the best, and 7 or 8 seconds if I missed a target (you had to hit every target, and keep shooting until you did).

The second set up was even harder.  Four 10″ plates arranged at 10 yards(2), 15 yards (1), 17 yards(1), and a final 18×24″ plate at 35 yards.  Shoot in any order with the distant plate last.   These were even more widely spaced, required 140 degrees of body sweeping movement.

Some people would burn through 15 or more shots to get all five hits.  I would score five in a row about half the time, maybe a little less.  Missing was disturbingly easy.

What did I learn?

Real proficiency with a pistol takes a lot of dedication and practice.  It requires constantly learning and tweaking.  Proficiency degrades over time.  There are people out there a lot faster and more prepared than me.  Even the worst shot gets surprisingly good and fast hits now and then.  35 yard pistol shots are really hard, which means pistols are no match for long guns, and long guns are no match for machine guns.  Even a little bit of pressure makes my skills degrade.

Also, shooting competitions are a ton of fun, and a great social incubator.  Seeing how people react under pressure is really informative.

My summary is that I think the video Tom posted by that woman is spot on.  Awareness is your most important tool.  Being trained in a number of disciplines like Capesurvivor gives you more options.  Being trained well in using the gun as a tool is imperative if one means to carry for personal protection.



  • Sun, Jun 09, 2019 - 08:00am



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    Attitude is the companion of awareness

Attitude is every bit as important as awareness, as explained here:


  • Sun, Jun 09, 2019 - 09:47am



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    SHTF and hand guns

Somewhere in one of Ferfal’s books he recommends using a crossbow since it didn’t give away your position.  If things degenerate down to those Argentinian levels a handgun would be useless.

This reminds me of the situation I’m in here in Tucson (hopefully not for much longer).  I bought this place about 40 years ago when I still worked at the UofA, which is a mile to the south.  Things have seriously degenerated since then.  About 15 years ago a drug rehab center was created in an old apartment complex a half mile away.  It closed down a few years later, but the gangs have remained.  About 10 years ago I was unaware of this and was walking my dog along the eastern edge of that neighborhood.  All of a sudden there was what sounded like AK-47 gun fire a few hundred yards to the west.  Luckily I had just turned to the east.  It was a drug raid since a couple of seconds later a police helicopter flew by at treetop level and a dozen cop cars followed soon afterwards.  When the SHTF this will be an everyday occurrence, assuming a police force still exists.  Should everyone buy an AK-47?

  • Sun, Jun 09, 2019 - 12:01pm   (Reply to #15)



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    re: SHTF and hand guns

Handguns are nearly useless in combat so very few soldiers are issued them. They get rifles only. Ferfal and Selco (Argentina and Bosnia) would agree everyone needs a rifle when society and rule of law collapse, but both would say handguns still have their uses. For instance, carrying a rifle in public in a collapse situation might draw a lot of unwanted attention, so a handgun might be your only option. If you’re inside guarding your home a rifle would be mandatory. If you’re blending in with others just going to get a 5 gallon bucket of water walking past checkpoints with armed militia, a handgun would be the way to go.

  • Sun, Jun 09, 2019 - 02:08pm



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    Grocery shopping in low level lawless environment

A concealed pistol sounds to me like exactly the right weapon for many situations.  I remember one of Ferfal’s descriptions of robberies in the grocery store parking lot.  Thieves would lie in wait at the grocery store the way big cat would at a watering hole on the Serengeti.

They responded to this threat by shopping as a team.  3 or 4 armed (concealed pistols) and alert people would shop together, staying spread out a bit, moving as a team, and watching for  the potential robber teams. Their appearance let robbers know that the cost of a robbery attempt would be high, as the would come under fire from the entire team who were ready and able to coordinate fire from multiple angles if threatened.


A concealed pistol sounds like just the right weapon for many situations.  A crossbow might work against ONE attacker if you were pre-positioned in a a snipers hide, but would fail in many other scenarios.  Similarly, a martial art might be OK against one other similar sized assailant where the conflict began at touching distance and the other was not armed.

Every weapon has its ideal distance.  (What is the best weapon for a fight in a phone booth?).  The pistol is ideal in the 7’ to 35’ range,  will usually be on your person, and allows a smaller or older person parity with TWO  big, strong, mean ones.

Don’t let anyone talk you out of a pistol!

  • Sun, Jun 09, 2019 - 04:56pm

    robie robinson

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Suppressed bolt action with HEAVY subsonic bullets, ie. not 300 black out.

  • Mon, Jun 10, 2019 - 06:52pm   (Reply to #18)



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    Bolt Action w/ Suppressor – Really Robbie?

A suppressed bolt action rifle? Why not suggest a head band and a big knife. Worked for Rambo.

Lets see, to get the suppressor is well over a thousand dollars legally. If you don’t buy it legally, fat chance practicing with it except out in the woods. Not to mention the first traffic stop that police get you with the rifle means serious jail time. And once you do get arrested, expect every bit of your gear to be impounded as evidence you are a threat to society.

Then the idea of a bolt action rifle? Firing those on a quick basis requires even more practice than a hand gun. Movie magic aside, no one sane takes a bolt action rifle into a situation where someone is shooting at you.

A semi auto shotgun is another beast entirely and probably the best bet in a high threat environment, but pushing a shopping cart down an aisle in your local grocery while slinging a shot gun might raise a few eyebrows.

Bottom line, a small frame semi auto, which you can tuck up under a shirt (with a spare clip or two), AND more importantly have spent lots of time practicing with is just about the only sensible option for self defense in a collapsed and semi lawless environment.

I personally carry a light weight revolver, just because things haven’t deteriorated to the point that I need more than 5 round in a situation. If things to get more stressful, I’ll carry something with more ammo

  • Mon, Jun 10, 2019 - 06:57pm   (Reply to #18)

    robie robinson

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    re: Bolt Action w/ Suppressor – Really Robbie?

You are the Boss.

You have forgotten more than I know.

My appologies for suggesting what works for us rural folk.


i am sorry for commenting on what works in my community.

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