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9/11 WTC explosives – not a conspiracy theory

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  • Sat, May 02, 2009 - 02:30pm

    #11
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    Re: 9/11 WTC explosives – not a conspiracy theory

Aaron Moyer said-

You realize that thermite is simply iron oxide, and it occurs naturally in situations where metal with some deterioation is rapidly heated, correct?

Just wanted to clear up one thing – "thermate" was discovered, which is a form of "thermite." 

"Thermate is a variation of thermite and is an incendiary pyrotechnic composition that can generate short bursts of exceedingly high temperatures focused on a small area for a short period of time."- Wiki

Niels H. Harrit, one of the authors of the paper cited in linxbetter’s post was interviewed yesterday and he clarifies this important point

There has been a great deal of evidence to dispel the crazy government theory that 911 was pulled off by a guy in a cave along with 9 accomplices.

Larry

  • Sat, May 02, 2009 - 03:12pm

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    Re: 9/11 WTC explosives – not a conspiracy theory

Still paralyzed into inaction at stage 3 I see.
Just think of all of the people who stop by CM for actionable info who see and read this unprovable and non-productive lunacy and leave because of the social crowd who wants to hatch a plot out of every news story or see the bogeyman lurking in every shadow.

Make yourselves feel good and call it “seeking the truth” or “speculation” or whatever other moniker you want – I’m going with “waste of productive time”

Save your keyboards from the righteous indignation of your replies to this post – your time is better spent elsewhere than composing something that won’t be read.

I’ll be in the gardening thread….

  • Sat, May 02, 2009 - 03:13pm

    #13
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    Re: 9/11 WTC explosives – not a conspiracy theory

Still paralyzed into inaction at stage 3 I see.
Just think of all of the people who stop by CM for actionable info who see and read this unprovable and non-productive lunacy and leave because of the social crowd who wants to hatch a plot out of every news story or see the bogeyman lurking in every shadow.

Make yourselves feel good and call it “seeking the truth” or “speculation” or whatever other moniker you want – I’m going with “waste of productive time”

Save your keyboards from the righteous indignation of your replies to this post – your time is better spent elsewhere than composing something that won’t be read.

I’ll be in the gardening thread….

  • Sat, May 02, 2009 - 03:18pm

    #14
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    Re: 9/11 WTC explosives – not a conspiracy theory

Aaron Moyer said: Can we please move past these truther type threads, and get back to the point of CM.com?

beenthere2vt said:

Why is this discussion important here?? So we are not like sheep led to the slaughter. Be very distrustful of your government. Not just in areas of your $$.

If they will lie to you about the financial conditions of this once Great Country of ours, and our History to our children…just think of all other things they are lying about. I for one believe they are manufacturing this H1N1 flu……….avian,swine and human….seems convenient to distract cause fear and death. 

C1oudfire said:

If, indeed, we are living in a police state, controlled by banksters and the military industrial complex, all of whom have little regard for human life, and even less regard for human freedoms, pray tell, what good will our puny little firearms, cutsie gardens, and [mostly] ridiculous alternate energy concepts do us?  There’s a hefty contingent of folks on this website who remind me of people arguing about whether men should wear mustaches, while sitting and drinking tea, in a building that’s on fire.  Frankly, it’s exasperating in its absurdity . . . . . .

I am sympathetic to Aaron’s perspective.  And I also believe Chris has been tvery careful to make his message as apolitical and non-controversial as posisble -beyond the essence of the message itself- so it will reach the largest audience possible.

And yet, I find myself in a strange, nebulous area these days.  I have learned, and continue learning, that things I always believed to be true, in terms of the conduct of our government, of "free markets", and of the "free press",  are not (or may not be) true.  My world-perspective has been turned upside down.  Is it such a stretch to think that it may also be turned inside-out?  I am no longer sure…I no longer know where the line is drawn. 

I believe this is a bit of a tricky area to navigate, as I think there are those who want to intelligently debate these issues, to feel out where their own sense of the truth lies.  And yet there are also people who are into conspiracies, who "believe" whether there is a rational basis for that belief or not.  And that tends to taint ALL who consider these ideas  with a "lunatic fringe" label. 

As C1oudfire and beenthere2vt say, if this IS true, it affects our understanding of everything that is now, and that may be a possible outcome in the future.  I do know that because my beliefs in those other areas (like gov’t conduct, free markets, anf free press ) have changed, I have made different decisions about how I choose to live my life than I would have otherwise. 

E.g., if I believed the gov’t and media to be telling the truth, and that things are getting better, that this is a normal business cycle that is bottoming out and ready to turn up, then I sure wouldn’t be spending the time and money I’m spending now on researching and establishing a garden , buying heirloom seeds, and pursuing all those other aspects of a sustainable life that I am.  I am not a gardener, and never really had a desire to be one (although I am making the best of it now, and may come to enjoy it).  I had thought I was hitting a time in my life when I could pursue MY interests outside of work.  But because my world-view has changed, my beliefs about what is important for me and my family have changed.  Would additional major changes to my belief system impel additional different/major choices in my life?    I don’t know.  But I think it is a valid concern.

Now back to figuring out this gardening thing:) !!

  • Sat, May 02, 2009 - 03:32pm

    #15
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    Re: 9/11 WTC explosives – not a conspiracy theory

 [quote=Dogs]Still paralyzed into inaction at stage 3 I see.

Just think of all of the people who stop by CM for actionable info who see and read this unprovable and non-productive lunacy and leave because of the social crowd who wants to hatch a plot out of every news story or see the bogeyman lurking in every shadow.

Make yourselves feel good and call it "seeking the truth" or "speculation" or whatever other moniker you want – I’m going with "waste of productive time"

Save your keyboards from the righteous indignation of your replies to this post – your time is better spent elsewhere than composing something that won’t be read.

I’ll be in the gardening thread….[/quote]
 

Dogs, I think Ozzy Osborne wrote a song about this:

[Ed. note: No nudity, please]

  • Sat, May 02, 2009 - 03:45pm

    #16
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    Re: 9/11 WTC explosives – not a conspiracy theory

[Ed. note: Comment removed at request of poster.]

  • Sat, May 02, 2009 - 03:46pm

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    Re: 9/11 WTC explosives – not a conspiracy theory

Hang on Aaron, Iron Oxide or "rust" is not an exothermic compound and is definitely not Thermite or Thermate, both of which are a precise combination of Aluminum powder, Iron Oxide and, in the case of commercial mixtures, a silicon binding agent.

The peer-reviewed research paper linked above, which I have read from start to finish, is the sort of research that I both conducted and consumed during my science career.  I used to read 3-5 papers like this every day and am personally familiar with many of the tests and machines used to perform those tests.

I judge that their methods were sound and that by using a combination of spectrographic and chemical methods that the authors demonstrated that Thermite or possible Thermate was found in 4 separate dust samples taken from around the destroyed WTC complex.  The next step here would be to have another lab reproduce the findings from start to finish and I’d like to see that done ASAP.

On another matter, this site is about, and will remain about, evidence and facts.  If there is some sort of a disagreement with the methods or conclusions of the paper in question, then by all means let’s have a fact-based discussion around that.

While I understand that some have developed strong beliefs both for and against "9/11",  I remain committed to the evidence.

As it stands right now, there is very strong, peer-reviewed evidence that Thermite was found in the dust samples from 9/11.  Clearly this proves nothing but it does indicate to me that further inquiry, possibly an entirely new investigation, is warranted.

There are some possibilities that need to be investigated concerning exactly how those Thermite-like particles came to get in those dust samples.  Some possibilities include:

  1. Either intentionally or unintentionally the samples were contaminated.
  2. Perhaps one product of flying an aluminum plane at high speed into a steel (iron) building is thermite-like particles.  This could easily be replicated or disproven in the lab by recreating the conditions of 9/11.  I volunteer because flinging kerosene filled aluminum balls at high speed into steel frames sounds like a great way to spend a couple of afternoons.
  3. Thermite was illegally stored by some nefarious import/export company in large quantities for some reason.
  4. Thermite was used to bring the buildings down.

I strongly support an inquiry into this matter because of the evidence involved.  Good grief if Thermite turns out to be present in the samples then we not only need an explanation, but we deserve one.  And this applies to any of the four possibilities above.  I want to know.

Further if either #3 or #4 turns out to be the explanation then we can save billions in future construction costs because the NIST is busy drafting up new building standards on the basis of concluding that ordinary combustion is sufficient to collapse steel-framed buildings.  If this conclusion is in error, then the new codes are unnecessary.

At this point I would ask that this discussion center on the findings and use facts, not beliefs, when either promoting or dismissing either a point of view or any particular poster.

Thank you in advance.
Chris Martenson

  • Sat, May 02, 2009 - 04:02pm

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    Re: 9/11 WTC explosives – not a conspiracy theory

Thanks Chris!  Your respectful request for discussion based on facts and evidence is appreciated!

  • Sat, May 02, 2009 - 05:10pm

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    Re: 9/11 WTC explosives – not a conspiracy theory

[quote=cmartenson]

Hang on Aaron, Iron Oxide or "rust" is not an exothermic compound and is definitely not Thermite or Thermate, both of which are a precise combination of Aluminum powder, Iron Oxide and, in the case of commercial mixtures, a silicon binding agent.

The peer-reviewed research paper linked above, which I have read from start to finish, is the sort of research that I both conducted and consumed during my science career.  I used to read 3-5 papers like this every day and am personally familiar with many of the tests and machines used to perform those tests.

I judge that their methods were sound and that by using a combination of spectrographic and chemical methods that the authors demonstrated that Thermite or possible Thermate was found in 4 separate dust samples taken from around the destroyed WTC complex.  The next step here would be to have another lab reproduce the findings from start to finish and I’d like to see that done ASAP.

On another matter, this site is about, and will remain about, evidence and facts.  If there is some sort of a disagreement with the methods or conclusions of the paper in question, then by all means let’s have a fact-based discussion around that.

While I understand that some have developed strong beliefs both for and against "9/11",  I remain committed to the evidence.

As it stands right now, there is very strong, peer-reviewed evidence that Thermite was found in the dust samples from 9/11.  Clearly this proves nothing but it does indicate to me that further inquiry, possibly an entirely new investigation, is warranted.

There are some possibilities that need to be investigated concerning exactly how those Thermite-like particles came to get in those dust samples.  Some possibilities include:

  1. Either intentionally or unintentionally the samples were contaminated.
  2. Perhaps one product of flying an aluminum plane at high speed into a steel (iron) building is thermite-like particles.  This could easily be replicated or disproven in the lab by recreating the conditions of 9/11.  I volunteer because flinging kerosene filled aluminum balls at high speed into steel frames sounds like a great way to spend a couple of afternoons.
  3. Thermite was illegally stored by some nefarious import/export company in large quantities for some reason.
  4. Thermite was used to bring the buildings down.

I strongly support an inquiry into this matter because of the evidence involved.  Good grief if Thermite turns out to be present in the samples then we not only need an explanation, but we deserve one.  And this applies to any of the four possibilities above.  I want to know.

Further if either #3 or #4 turns out to be the explanation then we can save billions in future construction costs because the NIST is busy drafting up new building standards on the basis of concluding that ordinary combustion is sufficient to collapse steel-framed buildings.  If this conclusion is in error, then the new codes are unnecessary.

At this point I would ask that this discussion center on the findings and use facts, not beliefs, when either promoting or dismissing either a point of view or any particular poster.

Thank you in advance.
Chris Martenson

[/quote]

I think there may yet be another possibility of thermite having been laid in the buildings during a previous bombing attempt that happened to still be there (person was caught or the ignition was set wrong?) when the building came down… which could also possibly have brought the building down in the way that it was.  Just an idea, I realize it could be a long shot. 

I have to say, I’ve been deeply concerned about the evidence surrounding 9/11.  I’m not sure what to make of it, but it doesn’t seem to add up. 

I guess another thought could be that the terrorists may have laid thermite within the building to be sure it collapsed after the airplane crash?  I think the visual of having the plane crash into the building was at *least* as terrorizing as the building coming down, so there you have twice the effect.  Whatever it was, it was a pretty elaborate plot… Even if it *was* just terrorists learning to fly and coordinating hijackings and plane crashes.

  • Sat, May 02, 2009 - 05:26pm

    #20
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    Re: 9/11 WTC explosives – not a conspiracy theory

[Ed. note: Comment removed at request of poster.]

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