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    Economic Shockwaves

    How the coronavirus is impacting our future
    by Adam Taggart

    Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 7:20 PM

Coronavirus-induced shockwaves are rippling through the world economy, causing tremendous damage that we are only just beginning to measure.

Strangled global supply chains have caused supply shortages. A massive drop in demand has resulted from millions of customers forced to stay home under mandatory lockdown.

Now come the job losses. 60% of companies have reported hiring freezes, while over 13% have already begun laying workers off:

Hiring freeze chart

Of course, the layoff rate will accelerate rapidly as Q1 earnings (or more accurately, Q1 “horrific losses”) start being reported later this month.

The small/medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) like your local restaurant, dry cleaner, bookstore and building contractor are being hit especially hard, as they don’t have the reserves to withstand the many weeks of no income the lockdown is placing them under. Many of them have already laid off their employees. Many may never reopen.

The jaw-dropping severity of this job carnage can already be seen in last week’s unemployment numbers. Claims spiked up to 3.3 million — nearly 6x higher(!) than the worst week of the Great Financial Crisis:

Unemployment claims spike chart

So what impact will this all have? What will the rest of 2020 be like?

It’s certain that we’re heading into recession. How deep and long with it be? Will the announced stimulus efforts help?

Can we get things back to the way they were, or are we entering a “new normal”? If the latter, what will that look like?

To address these questions, I recorded the following interview today with two of Peak Prosperity’s favorite macro experts, John Rubino and Charles Hugh Smith.

Both are in agreement that the current breakdown represents “the end of the road” for the 75-year Debt Supercycle we’ve been living through. And because of that, the future is going to look and feel very different to what we’ve been used to:

After the recording ended, John and Charles expressed interest in coming back on soon to delve further into the question of: What comes next?

What specific policies, monetary systems, business models, etc will be better suited for the future we’re swiftly transitioning into?

If that’s a discussion you’d indeed like to see happen, let us know in the Comments section below, along with any other particular questions you’re interested in hearing addressed.

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98 Comments

  • Tue, Mar 31, 2020 - 7:36pm

    #1
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Meanwhile - The US stockpile of US manufactured ventilators were sold over-seas

    The Hill is reporting - that our US manufactured stockpile of vents were sold overseas.

    Business as usual in the US..

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  • Tue, Mar 31, 2020 - 8:43pm

    #2
    nclaughlin

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    Are You on Next Door's Blacklist?

    A week or so ago, I posted a link to your COVID-19 reports to Next Door.  Now I can't even bring up the main page!

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  • Tue, Mar 31, 2020 - 8:50pm

    #3
    Hladini

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    New Paradigms Needed

    Adam,  great interview with two of my favorite commentators.  When Charles opined we need something other than pure capitalism and pure socialism,  I agree.  In Michael Moore's film 'Capitalism a Love Story' two employee owned and operated businesses were highlighted.  One was a bakery in California with 60 employees, everyone made the same annual salary, they all voted on business decisions, there were mechanisms to work overtime, etc.  The other was a smaller, robotic business with 15 employees, and the film showed this group making decisions,  having wonderful lunches  together, and the  company grossed $15 million annually.  They were all very  satisfied with their jobs.   I  think this paradigm would be rewarding; most folks won't vote to offshore their jobs, dump toxins in the neighborhood, or cheat themselves by  way of CEO enrichment.  This model would give folks a lot of incentive.

    I  just love the idea of employee owned businesses.  Where everyone has skin in the game and everyone makes the same money, but everyone is held accountable to his/her fellow owner/operators.

    No  one mentioned de-centralization in the interview, which is probably the only way to build resilience/redundancy into our systems.   The Transition Handbook offers a model of how to redevelop communities by way of creating a local Energy Descent Plan, and the documentary 'The Power of Community' illustrates how Cuba re-organized when the USSR fell and the country lost it's oil and gas access.    The way Cuba responded was a text book Transition Town  scenario.

    Cuba's re-organization was fascinating. The the number one dictate, almost immediately upon losing access to USSR's oil/gas, was to grow food.  Everyone was requested/ordered to grow food and many farms were privatized.  Cuba embraced organic farming - they had to, no access to synthetic fertilizers/herbicides/et el.   Lot's more interesting transitions, it's a great film.

    I'm thinking Chris' message about growing food is going to become more and more important as this crisis unfolds.

    Again,  thank you Adam and Chris, for the fantastic coverage of this pandemic and for helping so many people get prepared - both recently and all along.

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  • Tue, Mar 31, 2020 - 9:01pm

    #4
    ao

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    got an e-mail from an old friend who has been an actuary for 40+ years

    He said the numbers of dead predicted in the US is in the 100 to 200K range but his calculations suggestion more like 300K.  He was superb in math in school.  I'd go with his numbers over the more widely predicted ones.

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  • Tue, Mar 31, 2020 - 9:42pm

    #5
    obizzozero

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    Excellent discussion

    At this the deflationary forces are huge - money is not circulating. Assets purchases by the fed will not cause inflation at this time. If not look at Japan. The trick will be to identify when this situation flips. A tough call to make right now.  Thank you for the discussion, gentlemen.

     

     

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  • Tue, Mar 31, 2020 - 9:57pm

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

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    NordicJack, link please

    "The Hill is reporting – that our US manufactured stockpile of vents were sold overseas"

    Hey nordicjack, I saw this report in an article, that the US (Pompeo) sent a large amount of PPE and other intensive care supplies/equipment overseas (to China?) in Jan./Feb. 2020, as part of a humanitarian relief effort.  Would you please provide the link to your source re: ventilators? Thanks! 🙂

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  • Tue, Mar 31, 2020 - 11:11pm

    #7
    centroid

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    centroid said:

    this is where we need the us president from 1920 running the show. the government and the central bank need to step away from the market/s and we need to return to hard money. the forgotten depression and how it was handled:

    https://mises.org/library/forgotten-depression-1920

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  • Tue, Mar 31, 2020 - 11:17pm

    #8
    Matties

    Matties

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    How to deal with the virus

    This virus will continue as long there is not enough group immunity. Let say it needs 80% of the people once infected. So send out the youngest 80% and let the oldest 20% quarantine. This way we can get over it fast and resume economic activities.

    Or start wearing face masks and everybody in hiding. The virus will eventually get you anyway and by dragging this on for months you will totally destroy the economy.

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  • Tue, Mar 31, 2020 - 11:36pm

    #9
    Matties

    Matties

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    Vitamine C

    Vitamine C plays a huge roll in clearing and recycling damaged cells. Like in avoiding to get pneumonia.

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  • Tue, Mar 31, 2020 - 11:58pm

    #10
    movingalong

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    Adam, Charles and John

    FABULOUS DISCUSSION!!! So looking forward to the future line-ups!

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 12:32am

    #11
    pollux

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    Please continue with a part 2!

    Great discussion!

    More specifically, I truly got extra excited when you started to elaborate on a potential new "system" in the end. I guess, we are not only talking about a new monetary regime. But more or less, an opportunity to help a new civilisation with a new mentality, to be successfully born in the coming decades. I would so much appreciate if Peak Prosperity could emphasize exploring the fabrics of this potential new civilisation. Too much in our current and also historical civilisations, is designed to get our animal-type, lower nature, ignited. An example of our lower nature at work is all the existential fear we easily feel when, as now, the economy contracts. But we are more than this as human beings. Much, much more. What if a civilisation is built upon the true nature and potential of us as human beings?

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 2:05am

    #12
    French connexion

    French connexion

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    Well done Chris!

    This is the best that you have done IMO. It raises the question for me: Have the PTB done this on purpose - in France we are really in a situation that we call "système D". D means démerde - literally get yourself out of your shitty situation (by yourself). Not enough masks for the hospital workers - everyone swallowed the masks are not useful - even harmful - only like the flu etc. Then Pres Trump announces a treatment coming from France - we would not have heard about Chloroquine otherwise. Then some of the juicy points come out: the health minister quits BEFORE the wave of Covid-19 hits France - my wife (French) tells me her husband owns an important pharmaceutical company ... Normally I should not be on internet like I am, but with each passing day I feel an urgency to try to be "a Paul Revere" announcing something to prepare others for the shock, A Catcher in the Rye - I mean we can't just sit here waiting (Neil Young Helpless). At the same time your timing "Economic Shockwaves" appears to be perfect. We have been set up - and what should we be doing about it? I mean I have been preparing for this (not the virus) in earnest since 2012. Diffcult to know what I can do? Some people would say, "People get what they deserve" - that is not my Creed.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 3:57am

    #13
    French connexion

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    Some French Statistiques

    Per 100,000 people

    Hospitalisations - people admitted into hospital per age group for Covid-19 31/03/20

    less 15 years  3.3 personnes

    15 to 44        13.8 personnes

    45 to 64        33.7 personnes

    65 to 74        47.9 personnes

    greater than 75    103.2

    from mapthe news.maps.arcgis.com.apps/opsdashboard/index/html

    couldn't read the rest of the URL

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 4:37am

    #14
    Bluebear

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    An interesting essay from Charles Eisenstein

    This is a long read but it’s worth it. With a cup of green tea and some soothing, ambient music, I managed to get through Charles’s essay this morning, and thought some of you might find it interesting and insightful, like I did. It will take time for me to ponder more and digest the perspectives he’s offering here - human, political, economic, health, legal, medical, environmental and so on .... but the question does need to be asked: What will our “post-Covid pandemic” world look like?

    This is the perfect time for a little (or a lot of) introspection.
    Thank you, Chris & Adam and this thriving PP community for keeping us ahead of the curve, informed, aware, and ready. I visit this site at least twice a day (often more!) cos there’s just so much to learn and that’s thanks to all of you.

    Stay safe everyone!

     

    https://charleseisenstein.org/essays/the-coronation/?_page=2

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 4:43am

    LesPhelps

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    I’m an accountant, not an actuary

    He said the numbers of dead predicted in the US is in the 100 to 200K range but his calculations suggestion more like 300K.  He was superb in math in school.  I’d go with his numbers over the more widely predicted ones.

    Not that accounting requires advanced math, but I’m way above average in that subject.

    However, I’m not sure this issue requires advanced math, actuarial, or accounting skills.  It’s all based on what assumptions you make.  For example:

    US Population = 330.5 million
    Percent who eventually get infected = 50%
    Case Fatality Rate = 0.8%

    330.5 x 0.5 x 0.008 = 1,32 million

    I don’t know what assumptions they are using, for their numbers.  That would be good information to provide, to validate their projection.

     

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 4:52am

    Captain Queeg

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    RE: I’m an accountant, not an actuary

    Correct...I think that the assumptions are the piece that's missing, and given the fluid nature of how this is unfolding in addition to the effects of mitigation, the numbers will need to be updated on a daily basis.

    Projections, forecasts & estimates require updates & validated data sets.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 5:19am

    #17

    Afridev

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    'Humanity's Phase Shift', Daniel Schmachtenberger

    Have posted this link before, but it might be relevant in the discussion on a 'new system': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQRzxEobWco

    Not a solution, but a good indication of where to start...

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 5:20am

    chewbacca

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    send out our youngest

    Yes, let's let our young people get 20-30% lung damage, and "recover" with lifetime SOB. Great idea.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 5:30am

    chewbacca

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    true human nature and potential

    About 2 thousand years ago, paul wrote in Romans, quoting David from 2000 years before that:

    None is righteous, no one one understands. No one does good not even one, together they are worthless.

    Doesn't that describe today? In four thousand years, human nature has not changed one bit.

    To the contrary, those revolutions that tried to create a "new society " ended in complete disaster: France 1800s, Russia 1920s, Germany 1930s, China 1940s, Cuba 1950s...

    I have no faith in human institutions to do the right things, when their moral center is based on humanism/liberalism. None.

     

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 6:39am

    #20
    nickythec

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    What happens next?

    Great work Adam.  Charles and John are two of my favorites.  Having them together made for a great discussion and I can’t wait for a second round.

    Question for John and Charles in the next podcast, and here in the comments for anyone tracking:  I am starting to see in more and more places where people who are “experts” in finance, banking, investing and associated fields beginning to talk more freely about how untenable much of our current system is.  It’s as if the Pandemic has given them cover to talk about what we on this site have been discussing and have known for over a decade.   Many are starting to talk about how this might end the dollar dominant system in the next few years.  While interesting commentary, it still seems that most who opine on this topic still think that the system continues on for some time (usually years, sometimes a decade).  However, with all of the insults the system is sustaining on a near daily basis, failures, bailouts, the current oil production/storage debacle, the repo disaster, outrageous unemployment, an economy filled with “bullshit jobs” and services that are likely going to go away at breakneck speed… (and the list goes on), does anyone think that there is a possibility that we could reach a point of cataclysmic failure abruptly that doesn’t just wind down over the months and years to come while something else emerges?  If so, I would love to hear what folks think could happen next?

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 6:43am

    #21

    sand_puppy

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    Charles: Some examples please

    Talking about the inflationary impacts of "printing to bail" and how citizens can protect themselves against loss of value of their fiat currencies.  I heard several abstract recommendations.  I need a bunch of concrete examples and possibilities.

    Paraphrasing:

    CHS:  When Spain discovered silver in South America and flooded the global markets with silver (which was real money at the time) the value of silver fell by 2/3.  This is what happens when "money" is created and flows into the markets.

    Adam:  Get inflation immune assets. Things outside of currency. Thinks that can’t be manufactured overnight.

    Assets held in dollars will be diminished and the holders of those dollars will be impoverished. And the majority of American hold near ALL of their assets in dollars.

    CHS:  Must get $$ into something that is outside of fiat currency. What that is depends on who you are, where you live

    Something that is REAL collateral.

    What you do depends on who you are and where you are what your skill set is and how much capital you have.

     

    My request here is to have Charles (and John, Adam and Chris) brainstorm a long list of examples of ways that this might be done.   Please leave the level of abstract principles and brainstorm with us on specific ideas.  Help us make this real.

    Starting with buy physical gold and silver and store it in a secure place.
    Create some independence in food production with backyard garden and chickens. (This is food that does not need to be purchased with fiat currency.)
    Please continue......

     

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 7:08am

    marti61

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    cuba transition

    the Cuba transition is very instructive, especially how field traction and fertilization needs were addressed. no wonder that cuba is a leader in home made bio tech. the book on my desk is 'sustainable agriculture and resistance'- transforming food production in cuba. Has a lot of data- tho its dated- published in 2002. Also 'the theory of peasant economy' by a. v. Chayanov, if you can find it, on how farmers can organize and the life cycle of a farm family regarding number and age of children etc. Fascinating.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 7:23am

    chewbacca

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    if you have stuff, you need to defend it

    Backyard garden, food store, hard assets. You will be noticeable, because you're not starving. And the hungry masses will start to gravitate towards your island. Can you defend it? Would you defend it (willing to take lives)?

    Maybe that list must include fortifying your island. Either with armaments, or a reliable social network.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 7:30am

    grandefille

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    Small Scale Currency Alternatives

    Start with anything to produce food: animals for meat and milk.  Rabbits can be housed in very small space and aren't picky eaters.  Chickens are also great for converting table scraps to meat and eggs.  Plant fruit trees.  Buy tools and equipment needed to do the things above.  Go for quality, not low price.

    For the household, we have been buying maintenance items like crazy.  What critical systems do you have, and what might fail?  Light switches and outlets, light bulbs, extra co-ax cable and fittings, maybe an extra router or modem for internet, sump pump switch.  Canning jars and lids.  Food dehydrator.  Nails, screws, bolts, etc.  Hose clamps. chains and bars for the chain saw, materials for vehicle oil change and maintenance.

    Good, durable clothing for the family.  Especially shoes and socks. Safety gear, including goggles, gloves, chain saw chaps.

    On a bit larger scale, can you find neighbors who share your mindset and trade goods or services?  Or work together to produce food?  This would build social capital as well as the economic advantages.  Those of us with currency can buy things that will be assets to the neighborhood.  I bought a EMT style first aid kit and don't know how to use much of the equipment.  But my neighbor's daughter is a nurse, and when I mentioned the kit in case local hospital is overwhelmed, she said "Kathy would know how to use that stuff."  So we can be a help to others.  My cash, her skills.

    These things might seem small to someone who has a lot of financial/currency assets, but they will all be used eventually, and probably more expensive and less available in the near future.  Additionally, being a lead-by-example person lately has been the catalyst for great conversations with like-minded friends and neighbors.

    If you want to spend more cash, there will come a time when farmland is cheap vs. gold or silver.  Start building relationships with sustainable farmers in your area, so that you are prepared to work together to buy land and make it productive.

    Julie

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 7:37am

    ao

    ao

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    Les, i have no idea what the data is that led him to that number

    I do know that he works for a very well known, very solid Fortune 500 insurance company that is going to have billions of dollars riding on their decisions so I would surmise that the data he has access to which led to his statement is going to be more extensive, more heavily curated, and more thoroughly analyzed than yours.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 7:45am

    ao

    ao

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    chewbacca, i couldn't agree with you more

    Yet despite a 100% failure rate in this area, humankind's hubris will lead it to try once again.  Given past history, present trends, and future prophecies, I expect that the next attempt will be the most spectacularly catastrophic one yet.  And it may very well be the last one  for a long, long time.  God help us.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 7:52am

    #27

    AKGrannyWGrit

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    Sandpuppy -

    My request here is to have Charles (and John, Adam and Chris) brainstorm a long list of examples of ways that this might be done.   Please leave the level of abstract principles and brainstorm with us on specific ideas.  Help us make this real.
    Starting with buy physical gold and silverand store it in a secure place.
    Create some independence in food production with backyard garden and chickens. (This is food that does not need to be purchased with fiat currency.)

    Please continue……

    how citizens can protect themselves against loss of value of their fiat currencies.  I heard several abstract recommendations.  I need a bunch of concrete examples and possibilities.

    Why not ask your fellow subscribers also?

    I will start.  I have created the ability to have a small cottage business by slowly acquiring the following.

    sewing machine
    serger
    embellisher
    fabric
    stabilizers
    fabric accessories (buttons, zippers, hardware, trims, etc.)
    Crocodile (punch machine for fabric, leather, cardboard etc)
    Dress form
    Misc crafting supplies
    Wish list -embroidery machine

    All of these items put together along with the sewing lessons I have been taking now make for a cottage business.   I am also mentoring for my kids and grandkids, that they can take an item and change it by, painting, altering the size, embellishing and creating something new.  A fancy degree can create income but so can creativity and skills.

    A good carpenter, plumber, excavator, house painter, handyman, tree trimmer is no different.  A good handyman, worth their weight in gold!  Their equipment = assets.

    AKGrannyWGrit

     

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 8:00am

    #28

    AKGrannyWGrit

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    Sandpuppy One More

    Our neighbor bought a wood mill. I think thats the right name. Anyway it cuts trees into lumber.  He let it be known bring over your downed treed and he will split the milled lumber with you 50/50.

    We have substantial beetle kill trees which have become a fire hazard.

    friend = asset
    his saw mill = asset
    lumber = asset

    A win-win arrangement.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 8:10am

    #29
    alanrgreenland

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    Adding to the List

    Yes, invest in "things" that are inflation proof.  But also:  Learn a *skill* that will be in demand.  Yes, if you can garden, some hungry person may want to take your food.  But if you can teach your neighbors to garden, then they will not be starving (and they will value you for the knowledge you have and share).  We are conditioned to think in terms of "assets", and that this is a zero-sum game.  But knowledge is not like that.  Teaching someone else to garden does not reduce the value of the food you produce for yourself.  (Unless you're going to compete with your neighbor to *sell* your food at a market... which is not what I'm talking about.)

    Or learn to sew.  Or adopt an appropriate technology (how about manual typewriters -- can you learn to fix those?).

    I first learned this idea by reading John Michael Greer's "The Long Descent" -- a decade old now, but still relevant (perhaps moreso).

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 8:28am

    #30
    drbrucedale

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    Useful Resources for Preparedness/Emergencies

    Dear PP Friends:

    With a bit of trepidation, since we don't "do religion" at PP, I offer the following resources to help you in your own preparedness efforts. Just a bit of background. My church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, has for a very long time been teaching its members to be prepared, to have reserves for times of trouble. To be clear, the idea is not "self-sufficiency" for its own sake, but to have enough to take care of ourselves, and then something to share...voluntarily.

    My wife and I try to practice what we preach. Last week our local hospital requested emergency donations of masks, gloves, bleach and a dozen other things, to help cope with the pandemic. Since we had prepared enough for ourselves, and to share, I was able to take about half of what we had set aside, and donate it to the hospital.

    The church has a lot of free materials that are available to help guide your own preparedness effort. I think the most important thing to start with is a reserve of food, what Chris calls a "deep pantry".  But each person/family will be different.

    Here is a link to get you started. Explore the other links at the bottom of the first page. Since over half of the church's current membership resides outside the US, you will find lots of useful suggestions for people who are less affluent. I hope this helps.

    Bruce

    https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/food-storage?lang=eng

     

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 8:40am

    #31
    ao

    ao

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    i'm getting deja vu looking at many of these comments and discussions

    I recall we went down this discussion road about 10 years ago.  The most pragmatic came to the conclusion that during a collapse scenario, the assets that hold the most value, are in the most demand, and are the most tradeable are ... are  you ready? ...

    cigarettes and booze

    I just read a story from WW2 recently where a soldier who wasn't a smoker traded his cigarettes for more C-rations because other soldiers preferred their cigarettes to their rations.  Crazy, yeah, but that's how an addict behaves.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 8:45am

    #32
    kunga

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    Corona virus relief check

    Every source I go to has different information. Taxed/not taxed.  SS recepients auto deposit to account/ must file a simple 2019 tax form,etc.  Similar to the mask debate.  Nothing but confusion.

    By the way, did anyone who's information was compromised, ever get the $125 from the Equifax settlement?  I was promised it and have a claim number, but never received anything.  Fallen through the cracks and forgotten.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 8:57am

    mikpits

    mikpits

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    mikpits said:

    Hey DrbruceDale,

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does a great job of helping anyone be prepared for emergencies or long term financial or social turmoil.   I Found with about $1200 and a pickup truck by going to the LDS Home Storage Center, you can pickup a years worth of staples for 2 people.    Rice, beans, wheat, spaghetti, macaroni, dry milk, everything in #10 cans that stores for up to 30 years.      ANyone is welcome, not just members of their church.   Best price for long term food storage.    For $1200,  even if I never use it, it's well worth piece of mind.

    Good stuff.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 8:59am

    jturbo68

    Status: Bronze Member

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    Equifax

    So many people requested the money.  I was sent several rounds of, do you really want this, it may be diluted, we want you to take a credit monitoring service.   Sign up again type emails.

     

    Then nothing more over the past 6 months or so.

     

     

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 9:03am

    #35

    AKGrannyWGrit

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    Update - ao

    cigarettes and booze

    I just read a story from WW2 recently where a soldier who wasn’t a smoker traded his cigarettes for more C-rations because other soldiers preferred their cigarettes to their rations.  Crazy, yeah, but that’s how an addict behaves.

    Pot is legal here so I would substitute pot for cigarettes.  And growing a few plants might be a good idea.  Edibles are now a huge business. And dog treats with CBD.

    🤪

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 9:19am

    #36

    AKGrannyWGrit

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    Who pays for Covid-19 patients medical bills?

    Per James Howard Kuntsler

    One thing will be pretty clear: That the folks in charge of things gave trillions of dollars to Wall Street while tens or perhaps hundreds of thousands of Covid-19 survivors got wiped out financially with gargantuan medical bills. Do you think the Chargemaster part of the hospital routine will just stop doing its thing during this emergency? The billings will continue – just as the proverbial beatings will continue until morale improves! In the aftermath, I can’t even imagine the ‘splainin’ that will entail. The rage may be too intense to even get to that. For some, it may be time to lubricate the guillotines?

    I thought I heard that patients would not be charged?  Important to know.

    Anyone know?

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 9:29am

    suziegruber

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    Covid-19 Medical Bills

    Hi AKGrannyGrit,
    I just found this online indicating that many carriers are covering Covid testing and treatment costs.

    --Suzie

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 9:35am

    #38
    Carl

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    What Comes Next Discussion

    Adam,

    Sure, I would like to see that discussion. What I would really like are transcripts of the conversations. It is so much quicker to read.

     

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 9:36am

    #39
    karenchantal

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    Yellowstone; something to watch

    I am a believer in Murphy's Law.  There was a 6.5 earthquake in Yellowstone yesterday.  Will it blow?  I have no idea, but it is something to follow.

    The more people say there is nothing to worry about, the more I worry.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 9:37am

    #40
    drbost

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    More, please!

    Adam, Charles, John --

    Great discussion!  Especially the parts about "what's next?". Thank you.

    Please return and push further on this.  This can help us create a vision of what peak prosperity might actually look like.  And this vision can be invaluable in guiding our efforts in our local situations.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 9:42am

    #41
    Tony McPherson

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    Tony McPherson said:

    I just heard on the radio (Glenn Beck) that for every percent rise of unemployment the national death rate(not counting the death toll from the virus) goes up by 10,000.  Is this a standard rule of thumb?  If so when do we try to start back to work?  Also if this is true it is easier to understand the urgency of the people in the government to start putting everyone back to work.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 9:48am

    #42

    AKGrannyWGrit

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    Thanks Suzi, not feeling the warm glow of belief

    Lots and lots of words and explanations.  At first glance it sounds like they care and are helping but I don’t believe it for a second. Insurance companies are “for profit” and when the dust settles they will still be.  Am believing Kuntsler.

    If a patient won’t have to pay for their care why not a National announcement that says “we as a nation will rise to the occasion and take care if each and every Covid-19 victim”. Instead as Kuntsler believes, just wait, insurance companies will stick it to you and your families yet.

    Wanting to believe the propaganda.
    Thoughts?

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 9:54am

    #43
    Matties

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    RE : send out our youngest

    You don't get it. By sending the young you minimize hospital overload. I repeat, this virus will not leave the country before 80% are infected.

    Broad quarantine and face masks simply do not work. It is a stupid strategy. Take China. The locked a county again. No quarantine works until group immunity is reached.

     

    Furthermore by simply taking vitamine C and in overdrive when infected will be enough to protect the vast majority from damage.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 10:09am

    kunga

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    Equifax pay out /jturbo68

    Clawing back the money from the $##!!## overpaid attorneys would be a good start.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 10:20am

    #45

    AKGrannyWGrit

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    Good job Adam, CHS & Rubino, you must be good at magic tricks!

    Settle my thoughts enough to say, great guests and informative, relevant topics.

    Nicely done Adam, thank you!!!

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 10:21am

    Ision

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    The Confusion Of Faith...

    Faith in what is tangible, knowable, definable, predictable, and comprehensible, is completely different from any proclaimed faith in invisible, magical, spirits.

    Faith in a good dog, is different from faith in a good god.

    One may be rational, but the other never can be.

    Try not to flee into insanity seeking to escape the wraith of spooks.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 10:27am

    Afridev

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    Currency alternatives

    Assuming that society becomes simpler and more local:

    Anything around elements needed for physical survival: that will allow you to produce water, food, protection against the elements, safety/ security, energy, improve health (you're well placed for that no :)).

    Anything linked to production, processing, improvement, storage, trade of these elements is probably good. Skills, equipment and materials to be able to repair equipment, infrastructure used for production of these elements. Specific skills that make you valuable in these issues in a larger collaboration.

    Not sure how much in demand communication (e.g. through HF radio) would be.

    A wood gasifier vehicle could be very interesting if you're able to keep it running. Any type of renewable energy production will be very useful: photovoltaic, solar heating, biogas, micro hydro if you can keep it running.

    Anything that allows you to leverage or make optimal use of force (e.g. hand cart, bike) is probably interesting if you can keep it operational.

    A house that 'works' without needing (extra and/ or external) energy (e.g. naturally cool or warm, insulation, wood burners).

    Think in chains of dependency: are you/ your close social group able to cover all needs concerning land and infrastructure, skills and (wo)manpower, materials (equipment, tools, spare parts), organisation, obtaining external inputs (e.g. energy, funds, consumables), accessing 'clients' (e.g. means of transport). General principles of resilience should be integrated as much as possible.

    What are the simplest and most reliable ways of achieving these; handtools are more work, but are often cheaper, easier to repair, not dependent on external sources of energy, mobile etc. Things break, are there ways to repair using local materials and skills?

    Books would probably also be good; music instrument.

    Simpler society probably means less people. This probably means that there will be a glut in some things (clothing, cooking utensils, scrap metal?), so maybe good to not put too much energy in these things except in recycling these into something that could provide value (melting aluminum from motor blocks, though not sure what you could make out of these...)

    A simpler society also means that more people will have health issues that cannot be taken care of through modern means. If you have knowledge/ skills that can help here (e.g. medicinal plants) or are able to make materials (e.g. crutches) that might be a useful resource.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 10:30am

    #48
    Sparky1

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    Lest we forget....

    "...the glory of the American experiment..."

    Pompeo: 'I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole'

    https://youtu.be/qfrhATD4nM0

    Fed's Yellen expects no new financial crisis in 'our lifetimes'

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-fed-yellen-idUSKBN19I2I5

    This pre-pandemic smugness is even more obscene and criminal when viewed through the lens of current events.

    The coronavirus pandemic is real and potentially deadly. TPTB continue to exploit this crisis to further their agendas to basically own and control everything, i.e., "Never let a good crisis go to waste."  

    Today, crude oil hit $10 per barrel and the projections of US Covid deaths is at 200,000+. All is  clearly not well in the financial ""markets"" where pandemic spread supersedes petrodollar geopolitical advantage. So its time to pull out all the stops on the Federal Reserve and the Plunge (Plague) Protection Team! Imbue them with special powers and resources to "rescue" the ""markets""--all for the public good and enslavement.

    Approximately 1/3 of the US population is on "furlough"/out of work. '

    WH/Federal Reserve rescue helicopter fiat currency is on the way:  crumbs to the masses, windfall$ to the 1%.  Covid-2019 funding I-IV is a done deal with the vast majority of benefit to corporations and special interests at the expense of/on the backs of the masses.

    We are cultivating a sedated, coerced citizenry dependent upon and ceding control to TBTB; debt servitude for current and future generations.  :-/  Sheep to slaughter.

    Assuming widespread awareness (there's a leap!), at what point does enough mean ENOUGH! and the citizenry rebel and assert sovereignty over their lives vs. their overlords/"owners"?

    What would that look like and how might it play out?

    The revolution may not be televised, but it may be blogged and otherwise shared on PP and other social media.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 10:43am

    #49
    skipr

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    inflation vs social security

    Right now I'm listening to the presentation.  I just heard a comment about how increases in Social Security will not keep up with inflation.  Well I just discovered that my monthly SS payment has just been cut by almost 25%.  The new growth industry will be selling pitch forks.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 10:45am

    ao

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    AkGranny, pot's legal a lot of places now including here

    But it's pretty easy to grow (despite commercial pot growers claiming the opposite) and, according to Desogames it isn't addictive (although he could have fooled me, lol).  Nicotine is.  And it makes its users a little bit more aggressive and much more insistent about getting it than pot users are about their fix.  Also, tobacco is neither grown nor processed as easily as pot.  My money would be on cigarettes over pot.

    Hemp's pretty handy stuff though.  It can be used for everything from making rope and paper (the Declaration of Independence was supposedly written on hemp paper) to making lightweight, strong, dent-proof and rustproof body panels for cars and fuel for diesel engines.  In fact, it's often said to be one of the most useful plants on the planet.  But large scale hemp farming is unlikely to occur in a collapse scenario.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 11:05am

    mntnhousepermi

    mntnhousepermi

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    0

    social security checks had a raise this year

    They went up, not by alot of course, this year.  If your personal check is lower, it must be due to the money that is taken out of it for medical premiums, could you compare your new lower statement to your previous one since you are getting people on this site worried ?

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 11:13am

    Oliveoilguy

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    Faith

    Ision,

    I would suggest that you don’t know what you don’t know. For you to suggest that faith is provable or disprovable based on man’s knowledge and observations might be short sighted. From what I have seen as the handiwork of “man” I am not impressed. There is observably a greater consciousness (force...ability) in the universe than man. When I stare at a tree, a bird, a child....I am in awe. When I look at myself and other men (women) (and the other 57 genders) I am disappointed in what I see.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 11:14am

    #53
    yagasjai

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    Bravo!

    THIS is exactly the discussion we need to be having! I second all the calls for "MORE"!

    The one caveat I have is in regards to the "pitchforks," because to me that implies the potential of skewering individuals, and that makes me a little squeamish because it's actually the system itself that must change. Certainly the .1% benefit from the current arrangement, but the system itself is not actually those people. There is a shift in mentality/paradigm that is necessary push beyond the conventional understanding of what the possible arrangements of economy are and that comes from us. Someone once said to me that it may not be necessary to deconstruct the old in order for the new to arise. Think of how technology simply springs up and the old way of doing it becomes obsolete. Maybe what is needed, as the old is most obviously falling apart, is for us to shift our focus to birthing the new.

    I agree that we need to be willing to think beyond the systems we already know, like capitalism or socialism or communism, and that what is coming is hard to imagine because it does not exist yet. I remember reading a long time ago that all of our known economic structures are funded by the debt-based monetary system and therefore are all vulnerable to the same extreme excesses we are seeing now. So it does seem to come back to a shift in understanding about what measuring stick we want to use going forward (see my previous posts on this thread) .

    I get that gold and silver have been the default thing to turn to in a crisis throughout history. AND ALSO understand we are at a turning point in history unlike anything any other generation has faced, which means there is an opening now that there hasn't ever been before to push for an entirely new kind of economic arrangement. Those that are currently in control (or think they are in control) will resist any effort to change the way it is set up and are well-schooled in distracting and dividing us, so that we cannot unite for real change.

    So next question: how do we avoid the trap that so many movements of the people have encountered where a small segment of the population is blamed for the difficulties we are having and everyone aims their upset at that group and the system itself continues unchallenged? How do we remain clearheaded enough not to be divided and distracted so that we can keep our focus on actual systemic change?

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 11:37am

    ao

    ao

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    Ision, a little thought exercise if you will

    Can a 1 dimensional point perceive the expanse of a plane?

    Can a 2 dimensional plane perceive the expanse of a sphere?

    Can a 3 dimensional sphere yesterday perceive a 3 dimensional sphere tomorrow?

    So each dimension is incapable of perceiving the dimension above it.

    Theoretical physicists have established the existence of dimensions beyond our 4 dimensions.

    Can you entertain the possibility of an entity or entities that inhabit dimensions above our own?  A fifth dimension?  Or a tenth dimension?

    Again, as a theoretical exercise, do you think you would be able to perceive such an entity with your 5 senses?

    Do you think you would be able to comprehend these transdimensional realms and entities with your 4 dimensional intellect and senses?

    Do you think an entity inhabiting a realm one dimension removed from yours would have greater power than you (if nothing more than your inability to perceive it versus its ability to perceive you)?

    Do you believe the universe is completely random or is there an order to it?

    If you believe in complete randomness, how does our civilization's technology work?

    If you believe in order, what establishes order since the law of entropy would suggest that we should be moving more steadily towards disorder?

    If you believe a mix in the two, where does randomness end and order begin?

    If you had absolute knowledge (i.e. omniscience), would you need faith?

    Since you don't have absolute knowledge, what can bridge the gap between your incomplete knowledge and having absolute complete knowledge?

    I'll pause here to await you sharing your thoughts on the above.

     

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 11:38am

    #55
    vshelford

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    Re Sandpuppy's call for solid examples

    Most of these suggestions look great and are doable. My husband and I did a stint as back-to-the-landers in the 70s, and that, along with my roots in my grandmother's era - frontier nurse in the 1910s in the BC interior, living through the wars, booms and busts until the 60s - meant I never felt really comfortable without an outsized pantry, wartime recipes and a garden.

    But looking at the requirements now seems so daunting. As a polio survivor, I'm just so tired all the time, it's hard to whomp up enthusiasm for acquiring new skills. But we may be ok - already in an isolated area, some savings in various forms, deep pantry as always, a garden, a close knit rural community with a lot of retirees from all walks of life and with a terrific range of skill sets. Also some small farms and lots of gardens, so food trading is already the norm.

    At the moment, I justify my part in the community with volunteering web, desktop publishing and communications tasks, but if that infrastructure disappears, things will get interesting.

    But mainly, my heart goes out to the city dwellers. We (before February, used to) get a steady flow of them to chill out for awhile at our little B&B cabin, and I don't know how to think about their lives in the rabbit hutches downtown. I can only hope that necessity will be the mother of invention and they'll get creative and find new ways to cope. Maybe, like in Detroit, community gardens will spring up on land left derelict. "Block neighbourhoods" will band together to look after each other.

    While we lived in Quebec, during the great French/English divide, we noticed that there was lots of fighting and nastiness between the sides most of the time, but during the worst snowstorms, it was all forgotten and everyone helped everyone else. Emergencies do that to people. But "long emergencies"? Like war, they bring out both the best and the worst. But it will be how we all respond to each others' needs, not just our own, that will make the difference.

    Our biggest task, that made our current life possible, was that we made the huge effort to get out of debt, including mortgage. So even though we have a very low income, it is plenty (for now anyway). But does that hold if we are entering a hyper-inflationary environment? Should people bother killing themselves to pay off their mortgages with valuable dollars when those dollars are about to plummet in value? I can't wrap my mind around that - sounds too much like a game, and just keeping it simple and paying off your debts was... real, somehow.

    And will the change be immediate, or will the existing system continue the can-kicking? It's looked like it would blow up for a very long time now. But initial inertia is HUGE. My husband's parents moved out of South Africa a year after apartheid was inplemented, because they were sure "everything would blow up." It took 50 years and a Nelson Mandela for change to actually happen. When people are tired and it takes everything they have to survive, it plays a big part in the equation. The sad part is, that's 50 years of vicious oppression, and anger building up.

    Tremendous opportunities to do something well, but we need to recognize the dispositional roadblocks along the way.

    My 2 cents (from a Canadian, where we don't have cents anymore...)

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 11:42am

    thc0655

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    Economics and human suffering

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 11:53am

    robie robinson

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    A speedy

    thought experiment.”for the finite to exist,the infinite must exist as a reference.” Sartre

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 12:14pm

    vshelford

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    thank you BlueBear!

    Just read the Charles Eisenstein essay - it's beautifully written and so very much to the point.  Excerpts:

    "For most of my life, I have had the feeling that humanity was nearing a crossroads. Always, the crisis, the collapse, the break was imminent, just around the bend, but it didn’t come and it didn’t come..."

    "Now, all of a sudden, we go around a bend and here it is. We stop, hardly able to believe that now it is happening, hardly able to believe, after years of confinement to the road of our predecessors, that now we finally have a choice..."

    "That is the impulse that stirs in us, regardless of the superficialities of our opinions about Covid’s severity, origin, or best policy to address it. It is saying, let’s get serious about taking care of each other. Let’s remember how precious we all are and how precious life is. Let’s take inventory of our civilization, strip it down to its studs, and see if we can build one more beautiful."

    Recommend it highly and thank BlueBear for posting the link (which I'll do again for reference: https://charleseisenstein.org/essays/the-coronation/?_page=5

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 12:20pm

    #59
    kunga

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    Cascadia quake

    This big quake, predicted at 9.5, is overdue.  Yellowstone, not so much, right now.  The west coast Cascadia quake will decimate civilization from Canada to California.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 12:26pm

    #60
    Tony McPherson

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    Tony McPherson said:

    I have a question which occurred to me as I watched this video.  Chris is always telling us that we are on our own.  Do you think the coronavirus situation will make people more responsible for their own lives?  For example I have long believed that the medical system has become bloated and in a sense more fragile because people have forfeited their right/responsibility to negotiate the price and treatment options which are available to them.  The common practice is to let the insurance company dictate the treatment and the pricing.  There are also policies and laws which are designed to move us to make decisions which are not always beneficial to our own interests.  One of the many tax policies is to punish businesses which carry inventory from one year to the other.  I have benefited from this policy by purchasing equipment at the end of the tax year and have also had to pay more tax because of the same policy when I carried inventory past the tax deadline.  There are many other policies which cause us to modify our behavior but I wonder if I am one of a small minority who view this as a problem.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 12:42pm

    #61
    Gerrit de Wit

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    Great interview

    Hope you will continue to interview people who can share with us their thoughts about how this will play out in the future.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 1:02pm

    Linda T

    Linda T

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    Re: Covid-19 Medical Bills, and Thanks Suzi, not feeling the warm glow of belief

    AKGrannyGrit and suziegruber,

    I read an online update yesterday about my former employer, Goodwill, in addition to coverage on the  news… Someone I spoke to on Monday told me we would be getting something in the mail in 7-10 days but didn’t tell me what the contents would be. In hindsight I wish I would have asked. For 4 years I have had pretty good medical and dental benefits at a very affordable price of $52.00 per month… The notices (2,600 of us, even though 2 weeks ago when I was in the break room I had heard someone in management tell someone else there was 5,000 of us, huh???) we are being mailed are layoff notices effective April 2, even though we were shut down on Monday March 23. We will be receiving checks for any hours worked, our sick and vacation time, plus $300, and they will pay our medical through the end of April. Shit!!! I will no longer have coverage. Not a happy camper. And even more not a happy camper, and pissed off, because I don’t know if it will be over 30 days before Goodwill reopens, I have to look for work or I won’t get unemployment checks. Tough choice, deplete my savings faster without those checks, apply for jobs I might not be able to get to if the bus system shuts down… Or a myriad of other issues too.

    https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2020/03/goodwill-lays-off-more-than-2600-workers-hopes-to-bring-back-everybody-that-we-can-when-oregon-reopens-for-business.html

    So, I’m not feeling a warm glow of belief either, more like they want to pacify us with their propaganda and outrageous lies… Behind closed doors they’re probably having gleeful conversations, especially after they get bailouts on our backs. Sick psychopaths. Anyone else read Bruce Gibney’s book “A Generation of Sociopaths: How the Baby Boomers Betrayed America”, a book about generational plunder.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Gibney#A_Generation_of_Sociopaths

    If a LOT more people thought about this aspect beforehand and started speaking up, maybe, maybe, but I’m not confident everyone that survived a 2-3 week visit to the hospital will have a Jubilee day.

    Linda

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 2:33pm

    Ision

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    Non-Thought Experiment...

    What Exists is always finite.

    Infinity is never an attribute of any existent, but only refers to a process...and when that process ends...the result is always finite.

    Existence does not need NON-Existence, nor does the finite, require anything but for Existence to exist.

     

     

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 2:43pm

    Linda T

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    Re: "Sandpuppy One More", and "Adding to the List"

    AKGrannyWGrit and alanrgreenland,

    AKGrannyWGrit,

    Another thing you can do with the beetle killed trees is to make some BioChar. I first learned of it in 2006 or so, and have been to 2 conferences here in Oregon, one in 2009 and one 2016). Biochar is awesome stuff. Have you ever heard of Terra Preta in the Amazonian forest? That soil, discovered several feet down was still black and fertile after hundreds of years. There are many, many websites and books about Biochar (I have quite a few). When I first learned of it, I got extremely excited since it can be used to address soil fertility (it creates a “coral reef” in the soil for all of the microbial life; water filtration; is being given to cows to reduce the methane they release and for their health; can be used in commercial composting facilities to address leachate issues; bio-remediation, in addition to mushrooms; increases crop yields (anywhere from a few % up to 300%); bio-oils and bio-energy; and can draw down carbon dioxide from the atmosphere because it’s carbon negative (not just carbon-neutral). After pyrolyzing the organic matter (burning it in the presence of none to very little oxygen and at various temperatures), it slows down dramatically the decomposition process by a huge degree if put into soil. In the book “Ten Technologies to save the Planet” by Chris Goodall, one o the chapters is about Biochar, and he goes through some of the numbers. So has Albert Bates in his Biochar books. I have used Biochar in my raised beds for the last 6 years (would put it in the bottom of the hole for veggie starts) and I can tell they’re much happier and healthier. Unfortunately for the last 3 years I have had various personal issues in addition to whacky weather patterns, so I knew I wouldn’t have had reliable results if I had tried to document increased crop yields. Importantly, it does need to get composted or inoculated first, or it can reduce the amount of available nitrogen in the garden soil, which is important to consider if growing veggie plants! (If it’s already been inoculated, not an issue). Depending on the type of organic matter (feedstock, structure, and the size of it) used and the temperature it’s burned at, the resulting Biochar can look different and have different qualities or properties…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biochar

     

    alanrgreenland,

    Yes, JMG’s “The Long Descent”, and “Green Wizardry” are just as relevant now as ever, and even Kunstler’s “World Made by Hand” series. After reading both “The Long Emergency” by Kunstler and “Party’s Over” by Richard Heinberg, they both suggested getting physical assets and learning new skills, low-tech and “appropriate technologies, etc. Especially books. So I started collecting things, going to thrift stores, yard sales, etc. Books, manual tools, sewing machines, bike stuff, etc. etc. Once I got up to 200 books, I thought I was hot stuff. Yeah right… After reading Sharon Astyk’s book “Depletion and Abundance” and her blog, which I enjoyed for quite awhile and many times she would refer to a book when replying to questions. One day someone asked her how many books she had in her basement, she replied she had 1200 (if I remember the number correctly). Wow!!! I felt inspired and ridiculous too for my presumption. So, what I ended up doing was watching myself “with the beginner’s mind from meditation and yoga throughout my day. Putting my shoes on. Getting dressed. Eating. Cooking. Taking care of my cat and chickens. So, in addition to getting books about gardening and permaculture (I finally was able to get my PDC in 2015), I started getting books about making and repairing shoes, clothes, alterations, for my chicken’s and my cat’s health, more herb and healing books (especially so since I was a Massage Therapist at the time), candle making, soap making, cooking, food storage and preservation, pruning, seeds, propagation, etc. etc.  As I got books, I created 4x5 index cards like the libraries used to have, and created categories since I have enough cards to fill 2 5”x10” boxes (a few years ago I counted and had over 1,000, and the majority of them are in boxes in a storage unit with the rest of my prep stuff… Including a massage table and sheets, waiting for the day when red tape isn’t such a big thing… I don’t have the time, and especially now the finances to go to massage school here in Portland as it’s extremely expensive. When I went, it was $600, now it’s in the thousands… Right. Oh! they’re probably going to fold also. I can’t imagine them drastically reducing their tuitions to make themselves affordable.

    I have been contemplating, in some form or another sooner or later doing something. But, hadn’t sensed it was the right time yet. Being either a mentor or something like that with new gardeners, talking about soil and Permaculture, maybe brainstorming with them how they could design their gardens. A lot of people have charged a lot/too much for various “services”, I can imagine that changing, hopefully bartering and alternative currencies start up too, prices of services dropping once social distancing is in the past… There are books about bartering and alternative currencies too…

    Linda

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 2:51pm

    #65
    jgotobed

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    newbie post

    I'm pretty sure  this, my first post @PP, will draw a laugh, fortunately I'm used to being laughed at 🙂

    What would be the effect of the government suddenly going back on the gold standard?

    What if they pegged the price gold at say $35/ounce?

    Joe the feeble minded...

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 2:51pm

    #66

    Mark Cochrane

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    Anyone believe this line of crap?

    Just listening to this show on the nightly Trump announcements about our sudden massive military joint initiative to "confront the cartels" by embarking army and marines on navy ships to accompany coast guard ships and immediately set to sea. I'd say this has little or nothing to do with 'narcotics'. Army troops? What the hell are they going to do? Maybe invade Venezuela? This is all about getting our defense forces the hell out of the US before they get infected during the coming explosion of COVID-19 cases. After 2 aircraft carriers and a military base have been sidelined by infections this looks like a very scared defense response to protect themselves so they can maintain their ability to function. Makes one wonder what they are really anticipating?

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 3:03pm

    #67
    Linda T

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    Books

    I forgot to add books about rainwater (Brad Lancaster and others) and greywater harvesting (Art Ludwig and his books), humanure (see Joseph Jenkins) which used to be referenced as "Night soils" for fertilizing soils after proper composting!! since we're running out of phosphorus too.

    Peak phosphorus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_phosphorus

    https://www.sciencehistory.org/distillations/peak-phosphorus

    "Still, plants need more nutrients than nitrogen alone. They need potassium and sulfur and even obscure elements like molybdenum. Perhaps most important, they need phosphorus to help form the backbone of DNA and to power their cells. Unfortunately, the world’s phosphorus supplies may soon run low—prompting the need for a new Haber-Bosch process, for element 15, for the upcoming century.

    Regardless, there’s a growing concern that much of the easy phosphorus has already been stripped out of the ground. In some circles scientists talk about “peak phosphorus,” the idea that phosphorus production could level off within a few decades, at which point the world might face skyrocketing prices and widespread shortages. That phrase echoes similar concerns about peak oil, but peak phosphorus could be worse in some respects. We can at least envision alternatives to petroleum, like solar power or hydrogen. There’s no substitute for phosphorus.

    So what strategies might latter-day Habers and Bosches pursue? For one, they could figure out a better biochemical delivery vehicle so plants absorb phosphorus more readily. (Currently, plants slurp up just one-fifth of the phosphorus applied to them; the rest leaches away.) Or scientists could figure out better ways to extract phosphorus from the ground. The continental shelves, although underwater and tricky to mine, contain loads of phosphorus, and many rock formations contain the element at low concentrations. But no one knows how to vacuum all those stray molecules up without doing massive damage to the environment. That’s where the genius is needed.

    Another strategy involves recycling urine. (The German alchemist Hennig Brand actually discovered phosphorus in 1669 by collecting gallons of his urine and boiling it down.) Entrepreneurs have already invented “no mix” toilets that shunt number one and number two into different tubes and capture the urine for processing. These special toilets show promise because they’re a passive technology: people install them once, and pipes do the rest."

    Linda

     

     

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 3:07pm

    Ision

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    Please... The Arbitrary Claim May be Ignored Out of Hand.

    It is one thing to postulate attributes of Existence, about which we are currently unaware.  However, we can only apply Reason to those attributes we have identified and have properly integrated into the hierarchy of our intellect without contradiction.

    Reason demands we simply ignore the purely arbitrary claim, as we are unable to rationally pay such any attention at all.

    Example:

    "Invisible, blue, Snorffs, living under a rock on Mars, are what control all Human sexual activity on Earth."

    The rational fellow does not consider the arbitrary claim as worthy of any consideration, whatsoever.  One just ignores it, as it cannot be addressed.

    Thus it is with all posits of invisible, magical, spooks.

    "God is Love."       "Snorf is Blaff"      Both mean the same thing, nothing at all.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 3:14pm

    Ision

    Ision

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    More Confusion of Faith...

    Rational faith is a quite different from any religious faith, the two kinds of faith are often confused with each other...this was my point.

    But, if you wish to have faith in the incomprehensible...and undefined...so be it.  This is automatically irrational.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 3:16pm

    #70
    Sparky1

    Sparky1

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    Chris' newest video, live now, "A Dangerous Geo-Political Blame Game Erupts" (4/1/20)

    Coronavirus: A Dangerous Geo-Political Blame Game Erupts (4/1/20)

    https://youtu.be/YFwkjlaYJeA

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 3:31pm

    Captain Queeg

    Captain Queeg

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    RE: Anyone believe this line of crap?

    Preparing us for a military strike in the middle east and positioning our forces accordingly...

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 4:07pm

    Jim H

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    Ision... there remains mystery in the universe that can lead the rational to propose a spiritual realm

    You make the universe sound so black and white.  I won't argue that religion is rational or objective, but I will argue that many.. well, almost all, "rational, reductionist" physicists have come to the conclusion that, unlike the direction taken by many of the early thinkers in quantum physics, the human consciousness plays no role in the outcome of the double slit experiment.  In fact, the entirety of the multiverse theory is just a clever way to make the math work for the contention that our consciousness is of no significance.

    And yet, work done by Dean Radin suggests with strong statistical significance that humans can mentally modulate entanglement.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sc0vlDmris

     

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 4:16pm

    Mots

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    Peak Phosphorus

    Linda

    (you posted a detailed lament about how we are screwed due to "peak phosphorus" since the mines and oil are running out.)
    The ocean is very big and seaweed generally is very high in phosphorus (and potassium).  Moreover, part of the world (Asia but not America) has been improving its soil with phosphorus by adding seaweed to it.  Eastern Asian soils have improved over the years, in part due to this.  At certain times of the year (particularly in Spring) tons of seaweed phosphorus/potassium comes for free by washing up, on the abundant seashores of this planet.

    Its game over for team petroleum.  Time to move on with different thinking and altered behavior.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 4:18pm

    #74

    AKGrannyWGrit

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    Love Faith

    But, if you wish to have faith in the incomprehensible…and undefined…so be it.  This is automatically irrational.

    What?  Every time I point the clicker at the big screen I have faith it will turn on and entertain me.  Same with my I-Pad.

    They are incomprehensible and undefined.  So is my shower, turn the faucet and glorious hot water.  Amazing, did I mention the gray box hanging under my kitchen cabinet. One touch and omg, music.  They are also incomprehensible and a gray undefined, unremarkable piece if plastic and mysterious components.  Magic.  But I have faith they will all work😎

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 4:57pm

    Linda T

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    peak phosphorus

    That is true, but once supply and demand issues become more apparent, and transportation using fossil fuels and supply chains become more of an issue, and more people start trying to relocalize more and more... Only the coasts would have ready access to seaweed... People will need to look elsewhere and closer to home.

    And I don't completely agree with your statement "Its game over for team petroleum. Time to move on with different thinking and altered behavior." Yes, different thinking and altered behaviors but I think in a different direction(s), especially once we start leaving fossil fuels in the ground more and more due to EROEI issues, for example finances and geopolitically.

    Linda

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 5:03pm

    #76

    AKGrannyWGrit

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    Oliveoilguy a story for you

    When I look at myself and other men (women) (and the other 57 genders) I am disappointed in what I see

    Brene Brown has a great story.  She was extremely disappointed with a woman and judged her harshly.  Well Ms. Brown checks in with a therapist, yes even brilliant, highly successful people do inner work and have therapists. Her therapist suggested that the woman she was so disappointed with was doing the best she could with what she knew and where she was in her life. The therapist asked Ms. Brown if she thought people do the best they can.  So, because Ms. Brown is a researcher she asked everyone she ran into what they thought.  After much consideration and research her conclusion was - it’s a choice we make to either think people do the best they can with what they know or to think they do not do the best they can. And sometimes peoples best is pretty awful, guaranteed.  But, the key is when we sit in judgement and choose to take on that responsibility to judge people then our life is lived in a place of judgement.  Judgement is a negative, unhappy place.  When we choose to believe that people do their best even if it’s really crappy, we move out of judgement into acceptance.  It no longer becomes our responsibility to judge. And in that space of acceptance there is peace.

    I am much more familiar with judgement than acceptance.  But living with peace is a better way to live.  An ingoing challenge to be sure.

    The ending of your post tells me your judgement of people disappoints you.  I find that sad because there are extraordinary people out there that are truly amazing. And I wish peace for you.  Hope I made sense Brene Brown explains the idea better.

    AKGrannyWGrit

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 6:04pm

    #77
    kunga

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    Ision. Rationality

    I am no math whiz, but it seems to me the physicists and math folks who have stretched their brains to postulate other dimensions are very logical in reasoning.  And also, the practitioners of Eastern philosophies, who have thought about these questions for ages.  If, indeed, other dimensions exist beyond detection by our limited senses, is it irrational to speculate intelligent beings may inhabit those realms?

    Edit: I do believe I have had experiences I would classify as extradimensional.  But they are personal.  Trying to explain them to someone else would be like trying to explain a blue sky to a blind person.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 6:33pm

    ao

    ao

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    Ision, i'd hoped you'd do better than dodging the question

    But it seems to have become de rigueur around here as of late.  Join the club.  I stand 0 for 3 in getting difficult questions answered.

    As to your statement, "However, we can only apply Reason to those attributes we have identified and have properly integrated into the hierarchy of our intellect without contradiction.", am I to presume from that you do or do not understand women?;-)  If so, please enlighten me.

    On to a third question, perhaps more answerable.  Do you believe in the existence of out-of-the-body experiences and, if so, please explain?  After all, your Community dabbled in such things.

     

     

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 6:37pm

    #79
    ao

    ao

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    on the Worldometer site under Closed Cases, the Death rate is now 20%

    And the slope of the curve doesn't show the slightest sign of abating.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 6:41pm

    #80
    ao

    ao

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    Joined: Feb 04 2009

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    so what can we learn from Japan

    They seem to have done a remarkable job of stopping the spread of the corona virus.  It's particularly impressive given its population size and population density and the Diamond Princess incident.

    Paging Mots?

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 6:54pm

    charleshughsmith

    Status: Bronze Member

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    non-fiat assets

    I hesitate to give concrete examples b/c they might be taken as recommendations rather than suggestions. And the situation is so fluid that any suggestion acted on today could end up losing value in the next few months, regardless of its future prospects.  In other words, "timing is everything".  For example, oil looks cheap at $20/barrel, but are the oil companies cheap? Will they be cheaper in 6 months? If I suggest oil and somebody buys it tomorrow, and gets their head handed to them by a steep decline.... that's not a situation I want to get into.  It's one of the limits of public discussions involving potential financial losses. Thank you all for understanding.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 7:03pm

    Oliveoilguy

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    Judgement

    Hi Granny,

    Good story. I agree with you that being overly judgmental is a bad way to live.

    What I was trying to express...and obviously didn’t do it too well....was that Man pales in comparison to the creative forces behind the universe. What I got from Ision was a reverence toward man as being the supreme force ......and I was trying to show the fallibility of man and the perfection of whoever or whatever created this universe.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 7:09pm

    LesPhelps

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    You really didn’t add anything to the mix here ao

    The amount of misinformation that is being pedaled about the Coronavirus is abhorrent. I’ve posted my assumptions.  They may in fact be conservative, but time will tell.

    I won’t pay attention to anyone regarding this who doesn’t explain in detail their statements or projections.

    Regarding Fortune 500, that doesn’t enhance credibility in this instance.  Fortune 500 companies have a horse in this race.  Their projections may be made to support their company, or profits, rather than disseminate unbiased information.

    Dr. Albert Bartlett always advised not to take anything you read at face value, until you do the math.

    That is what I did and my math is 100% accurate given the assumptions I specifically spelled out.  You can dispute my assumptions specifically but not my math.  If you want me disagree with my projection, tell me what input your guru disagrees with.

     

     

     

     

     

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 7:19pm

    #84

    AKGrannyWGrit

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2011

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    Oliveoilguy

    …and I was trying to show the fallibility of man and the perfection of whoever or whatever created this universe.

    Ah beautiful!  I agree completely.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 8:05pm

    #85
    NickAdams10

    NickAdams10

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    Concrete ideas

    @sand_puppy

    Some ideas:

    Stuff that you normally consume in the course of a year
    Garden tools
    Mechanic's tools*
    Vehicles from 1980s and earlier*
    Jars and lids
    Pressure canner
    Ammunition (right now, it's not generally available but might be in a few months)
    Five-gallon food-grade buckets and gamma seal lids
    Batteries
    Chainsaw and chain
    High-quality clothing
    Water storage (also generally not available now)
    Generator
    Small solar panel and batteries

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 8:27pm

    #86
    Ision

    Ision

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    Understanding...

    I understand the emotionally dominated intellect.  I understand people, who believe their emotions to be the primary method of cognition, and not the secondary cognitive events they really are.   I understand what emotions are..and what it is, which causes them.

    If one is Rational, their emotions shall be rational, and they shall be able to express to you exactly why they are experiencing them.

    If one is not rational, their emotions shall also be irrational, and they shall not be able to express why they feel as they do in comprehensible terms.  Until one can understand the reason they feel as they do...about ANY issue...and can explain the reason to others....the emotion will remain irrational.

    The key to understanding your emotions is to understand they are created by your mind, in reaction to a cognitive, or sensory, experience, and are all spawned by your adopted values, whether these values are consciously realized, or not.

    If you do not understand why you feel as you do, you may be unaware of the value which created it, and upon your discovery of this value, you may find it to be repugnant.

    Because a huge portion of the population defaults to their emotional flux as their method of cognition, propaganda is effective, and the manipulation, and injection, of desirable value sets, allow for easier control of the herd.

    If we know how you are "wired" we can cause you to act as we wish, or prevent you from acting, by deliberately evoking the proper emotion.

    The average person's intellect is laced with all sorts of emotional triggers, they have no idea exist and no comprehension of how they are used by manipulators.  Many of these ingrained emotional triggers have only one primary function, and that is to shut down your cognitive function...or to turn off your mind...and to shut you up.

    As for out of body experience...

    It seems our intellectual experience is not rigidly fixed in time, or space, (say two inches behind our eyes)...as we normally experience it.

    But, if I start to try to explain this subject to everyone, it could take many pages to even begin to lay the foundations for comprehension.   Most will not be emotionally able to grasp some key concepts, as the ramifications may be unsettling to them.

    So, I shall just touch upon a few things, you might already be somewhat familiar with.

    Each of us has more than one center of consciousness and out intellects function more as a collective of cooperating "minds," which strive with the whole, but may have individual interests, not shared.

    "Future Memory" takes place, where the intellect suddenly leaves the "now," and finds itself experiencing a future sensory event, usually of great emotional impact.  The experience is not out-of-body...as the body is still sensed in the "now," but what one may see and hear...is an experience from a future event..which may be only a minute away.   This future memory may last only ten seconds and when it  ends, one returns to the normal sensory input of the "now."

    The person experiencing this, upon returning to the "now," is emotionally convinced the experience they have just had is real..and the future event they have just witnessed is going to happen...again, but this time in the "now."

    Knowing this future is about to happen, exactly as you have already seen it happen, what does one do?  Can one take advantage of this experience?  Can one act to alter the future memory from what one experienced to something else?  Can one change the future from what one witnessed?

    The answer is, No.  When the future arrives, which you have "remembered" a minute before...what transpires will be exactly the same as your future memory experience was, without flaw.

    Remote Seeing.

    I was an operative for the U.S.Government, working mostly for the NSA, when my controlling officer came into my office and handed me a small, black & white photograph.  The picture was of a dark-haired man, dressed in a white shirt, with its long sleeves rolled up, and white cotton slacks.  His hair was combed back, but still covered the top of his ears and he had a large mustache.   He was standing in a dark, featureless room, with bare walls and not furniture.  The floor looked like bare stone.  He stood, arms folded, looking at the camera with an calm expression, and looked to be about 30 years old.

    "Tell me where this picture was taken," asked my Superior, as I stared at the picture, wondering why I have been given it.

    Without thought, I dispassionately replied, in matter of fact tones.  And told him exactly in what country, in what city, in what building, and it WHAT ROOM of that building, this picture had been taken in.

    "How did you know this?" My boss asked, startled.

    "I have no idea," I said, which was the truth.

    "Well," My Superior said, "You are exactly right."

    The subject is difficult...especially in this form.   It is best addressed with good wine and a comfortable place to converse...

    We are all bits of Existence, seeking to fathom Existence, and to avoid the torments of stagnation.

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 8:55pm

    alanrgreenland

    alanrgreenland

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    RE: Books

    Linda, it sounds like your library has a lot of overlap with mine!  The main difference seems to be that you are waaaay better organized than I am!  I have at least a thousand books (on many topics, some completely unrelated) -- drives my wife crazy.  Anyway, I do think books are valuable, and will be in the (not so distant?) future -- one of the reasons I "hoard" them.  The other reason, of course, is that you can learn something from a good book.  Loved Sharon Astyk's "Depletion and Abundance".

    So many books, so little time.  I very much look forward to retiring in another year or so, and reading some of the books I own but haven't had time to actually read yet!  (Several Derrick Jensen books loom between some vintage bookends on my dad's old desk...)  In the meantime, I will make time for expanding my garden this year, and read more if/when I can.

    Be well!

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 9:13pm

    Ision

    Ision

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    Posts: 103

    Math and Reality

    Math is a language which may deal with a factual description of some aspect of Existence, or detail a complete fantasy, without any actual identity whatsoever.

    Math is capable of fiction, just plug in the wrong variables....

    No matter how many verses one wishes to postulate, no matter how many dimensions, if Reason cannot be applied, knowledge cannot be gained, and ignorance reigns.

    If one wishes to ignore the Laws of Identity, in order to embrace some irrationality, they leave the realm of Reason for a place of dire contradictions, non-concepts, and terms without any definition to provide them meaning.

    "There are 50 Billion universes out there...and I just know...one of these unknown, undefined, universes is just filled to capacity with magical beings!"

    Reject the arbitrary claim out of hand.

     

     

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 9:32pm

    ao

    ao

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    Posts: 1242

    Les, that's fine, then just ignore it

    I didn't submit it for your approval.  I was just passing along some information a friend gave me.  And I never called him a guru.  And why would a Fortune 500 company NOT make projections to support their company or profits.  The last I heard, they weren't an independent news agency and this number was not put out by them for public consumption.  And I never disputed your arithmetic.  But you know what they say about assumptions.

    I think you need to go out fishing and relax a little bit.  Or do you no longer do that?

     

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 9:48pm

    Linda T

    Linda T

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    Re: Books

    alanrgreenland,

    Thanks! I kept thinking over and over trying to think of some way to create some kind of organization, so I would know what I had when I was "shopping". One moment there it was, so obvious, eureka!! I suddenly remembered the libraries before all of the computers, and watching the librarians going through the index card catalogs they had...

    Completely agree about being able to learn from books, I have my favorites. "Gaia's Garden" is one, the first book I read about Permaculture. Wow, it made so much sense to me. I also have some of Derrick's books, even though he makes a lot of good points, at times he was a bit intense. I wonder how he feels now watching what's happening in our world now.  Out of curiousity I looked to see if he has a website he does, last article was Sept 2019 about the Amazon burning.

    As the Amazon Burns, It’s Time to Roll Up Our Sleeves

    And there are some videos on YouTube. The most recent is "How to Listen", to Nature especially, and how Nature gestures back once we open ourselves to waiting and listening. He talked about his experience of asking a stream "what's it like to be you?" when he was stuck writing one of his books.

    I also found another video with Derrick Jensen with "Collapse Chronicles" description was "In the final installment of the Coronavirus Chronicles, I have the pleasure and honor of speaking with Derrick Jensen, who needs no introduction here. Derrick said "it's a very serious situation". One of the comments below the title repeated something he talked about, "In summary, Derrick asked the question no one else thought to ask: Why are the elites suddenly so concerned with the peasants welfare? Why are they suddenly, being so 'nice'? All over the world governments are nationalising industries and transport, working out pseudo-UBIs and are full of faux compassion. This is in complete contradiction to all the corporate elites' behaviours. The two answers to his question he found: 1) taking "one on the chin" for the economy now is, they know, less worse than letting market forces carry on as normal, as there would then be an even bigger hit on the economy in 18 months from now. "It's the economy stupid!" Thus it ever was. 2) The virus' main victims seem to be men over 60 with poor health or generally just unfit. Guess what the demographic of most of the corporate elites is? Men over 60 who are generally unfit. QED they are scared shitless it'll get them." It's 28 mins long, and I'm at 10 mins right now, so I'm going to post comment and finish listening to it.

    Linda

     

     

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 10:09pm

    ao

    ao

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 04 2009

    Posts: 1242

    1+

    Ision, thanks for taking the time to write that detailed answer

    I'd buy you dinner and a bottle of wine just to hear more.  You remind me a lot of Pete Ralston, a consummately skilled martial artist and brilliant author and philosopher as well.  What you posit has remarkable similarity to what posits in one of his books, The Book of Not Knowing: Exploring the True Nature of Self, Mind, and Consciousness.  I may not agree with you about everything but that's OK.  I still enjoy indulging in intelligent conversation with someone I can learn from and, in turn, perhaps share a bit of what I know.

    Might you have a disconfirmation bias though?  Here's a disconfirming question.  What evidence would you have to be presented with to change your mind about the existence of transdimensional entities, a supradimensional realm, or a supreme being?

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  • Wed, Apr 01, 2020 - 10:45pm

    #92
    kunga

    kunga

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 26 2017

    Posts: 302

    Ision

    Well, I just hope you don't have a melt down when things you call irrational suddenly present themselves to your consciousness. (One or the others of them.)  I really have a feeling something is coming your way that may rock your world view.  And I think you will handle it.

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  • Thu, Apr 02, 2020 - 5:26am

    #93

    Barbara

    Status: Member

    Joined: Dec 15 2009

    Posts: 141

    1+

    Call to US action this morning! Stores limiting milk sales force dairy farmers to dump milk!

    Call to US action this morning! Stores force dairy farmers to dump milk!

    Uninformed grocery stores that limit milk purchases are forcing farmers to dump milk instead of processing it for people to use — this as jobless people are starving.  Engage locally today.  Check your local farmers and if they are OK, pressure the stores.
    If local farmers need help, see if you can catalyze an effort to expand cheese factories and directly distribute their raw milk.  You may end up seeing violation of their contracts and local laws about distributing unprocessed milk.  Help them navigate that also.

    Call every store in your neighborhood and tell them to stop limiting milk purchases. Write to all the major grocery chains to ask them to cut it out. No limits on milk purchases.
    if your financial situation allows it, buy some milk for school lunch and food banks locally.
    Tell all your friends to pressure the stores. If this continues dairy farmers will stop producing and both healthy food and the rural economy will suffer.  This is not just factory farms.  This is small family farms that have been holding on by their fingernail for 50 years.  This will probably be their death blow.

    Please help today

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  • Thu, Apr 02, 2020 - 9:07am

    #94
    Martin Lachapelle

    Martin Lachapelle

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 25 2020

    Posts: 1

    1+

    Couldn't help but notice this...

    While I was checking the markets today... Nothing to worry here, time for that V-shaped recovery! (end sarcasm)

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  • Fri, Apr 03, 2020 - 4:07pm

    #95
    Green Acres

    Green Acres

    Status: Member

    Joined: Dec 04 2010

    Posts: 9

    1+

    Great Expectations

    It seems like a lot of people genuinely believe this will be over by the end of April, although some are using the word months which most think / believe is two months.

    We're in for a collective shock when this isn't really over until there is a proven vaccine available for mass consumption (18m?-24m?) or when we get herd immunity by accident because 75-80% of the population get infected before the vaccine is ready.

    Folks planning their lives around getting back to normal in early May or at the worst early June, and it's not likely to be that way.  Just ugh.

    Hopefully I'm mistaken...

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  • Sat, Apr 04, 2020 - 4:55am

    MountainBlues

    MountainBlues

    Status: Member

    Joined: Oct 09 2011

    Posts: 16

    1+

    MountainBlues said:

    “we could reach a point of cataclysmic failure abruptly“. I agree - very possible. Almost no one acknowledges this. What happens next? It’s brutal.

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  • Sat, Apr 04, 2020 - 5:40pm

    #97
    Ellery West

    Ellery West

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 13 2020

    Posts: 4

    1+

    Chinese Responsibility Revisited

    Recently, US and British government managers have complained that China's CCP withheld vital public information during the honey badger disease onset. Chris correctly pointed out that this complaint is deceptive due to the existence of well-funded intelligence services. However, genuine responsibility exists because the CCP prohibited the sale of bush meat after the 2003 SARS outbreak, then subsequently relaxed those regulations knowing very well that novel diseases jump to humans via their wet markets. It has been noted that China has not been forthcoming with accurate disease information and it has apparently stopped reporting altogether according to the Woldometer Coronavirus Update site. Withholding disease information expresses a special kind of arrogance, particularly since a fair share of responsibility and liability lies with Chinese rulers. Actions speak louder than words, and these actions couldn't be plainer. It may take a war to pull Western Economies out of the coming depression. It is deeply sad but fitting that the Chinese government is spoiling for this adversarial role.

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  • Sat, Apr 04, 2020 - 11:44pm

    #98
    Cowtownusa

    Cowtownusa

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 10 2018

    Posts: 1

    What's next yes !

    Adam & Chrisd -

    Please do tell us more about what you think is next!

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