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    Don’t Let The Coronavirus Infect Your Relationships

    How to avoid wanting to divorce or murder everyone you're stuck in lockdown with
    by Adam Taggart

    Friday, April 3, 2020, 3:40 PM

This is an updated version of Peak Prosperity’s guidance on resilient relationships, made even more relevant now due to the inter-personal stresses of the coronavirus lockdown.

Lockdown Stress = Relationship Stress

Under the best of conditions, relationships have their ups and downs.

But confine people indoors for weeks/months during a deadly pandemic with no clear release date in sight? You’re going to see plenty of issues erupt.

Anyone who’s already been under home lockdown for more than a few days ‘gets’ this.

Living on top of each other without a break makes it easy for the smaller usually-manageable differences between you and your partner to start chafing uncomfortably.

And your kids — argh! Could they try to be a little less irritating? Maybe a little more respectful? Or at least find something better to do than zombie-out all day on their devices?

Add to this mix the heightened anxieties of dealing with the worst pandemic in 100 years (fear of getting sick/dying/job loss, etc), and serious inter-personal conflict is sure to follow.

We want you to help avoid and reduce as much as this conflict as possible, so that your relationships can be a source of support and solace — instead of toxic rancor– during this trying moment in history.

The Danger Is In The Damage Done

We’re already seeing early examples of people hitting their breaking point.

Divorces in China spiked once the mandatory home quarantine was lifted. Incidences of domestic violence there also multiplied during the lockdown period. (Source: Bloomberg)

Suicide hotlines across the world are reporting surges in calls related to coronavirus-created issues. A German finance minister just killed himself over concern his efforts to protect his countrymen would prove inadequate.

When emotions run this high, it’s easy to become unhelpfully triggered.

As an example, many readers report struggling to find common ground with housemates and family members who don’t take the covid-19 threat seriously enough. That’s a difference with potential life-or-death consequences.

But even smaller disagreements, over mundane things like how to handle chores or the kids, have now become overly-magnified by the pandemic’s looming existential threat.

These differences in outlook can be incredibly frustrating. Both for you as well as for the other person, who’s just trying to get through another challenging day. And it often results in dysfunction that festers, further sabotaging the relationship.

At odds, both parties retreat. Communication suffers, and oftentimes folks respond critically when conversation is attempted.

That dynamic leads to bitterness, confusion and anger, which then spills into other areas of the relationship. Suddenly other small forms of rejection can feel like part of a coordinated affront.

The danger is this can morph into a larger “You don’t understand me!” or “You don’t care about me!” mindset that, once taken root, colors future interactions with suspicion and cynicism. A vicious cycle of negativity and hurt then builds that can alienate friendships and end marriages.

We’ve heard of dozens — probably hundreds — of relationships that have fallen casualty in this way from our readers over the past decade. And this was long before the additional stresses added by covid-19.

Those who have read our book Prosper! understand the critical importance of Social Capital — being in supporting, trusted relationships with those around us. Social Capital nourishes us emotionally as well as makes us, and our communities, more resilient.

But it requires repeated interaction over long periods of time, and building bonds that can withstand stress. And times are highly likely to get more stressful from here.

Can we prevent this scary, challenging time under lockdown from straining further the isolation/frustration many of us already have with key people in our lives? Is there a way to navigate our close relationships in a way that can prevent creating irreparable rifts when disagreements arise?

The answer is “yes”, and it’s grounded in decades of scientific research.

It’s All About How We Approach Relationship Problems

John Gottman and his wife Julie have been studying relationship stability for over 40 years. Gottman’s research, including the famous “Love Lab” he created at the University of Washington, led to the development of the now-standard industry practice of sequential analysis in couples therapy.

Specifically, he discovered that there are patterns of behavior (i.e., sequences of interactions) that discriminate happy couples from unhappy ones.

If you read Malcolm Gladwell’s best-seller, Blink, Gottman is the therapist featured at the start of the book, who can predict with 91% accuracy whether a married couple will divorce within 5 minutes of meeting them. That’s because Gottman has put in well over his “10,000 hours” developing mastery in this field, personally conducting 12 longitudinal studies with over 3,000 couples (the longest were followed for 20 years!)

Gottman is a very big deal in the world of couples therapy. I know this first-hand because I’m married to a licensed Marriage & Family Therapist trained in the Gottman Method.

There’s a deep toolkit of Gottman practices for persevering through conflict. My wife reaches into it every time we have a protracted disagreement…

And as weirdly clinical as it may sound, deconstructing an argument while still in the heat of it and applying the defusing and repairing techniques developed by the Gottmans is extremely effective. It can really reverse a “me against you” confrontation into a “we’ll get through this together” collaboration.

The success of this is rooted in an important realization: It isn’t about being right. It’s about finding resolution you can live with.

Everyone is different and sees through their own lens. In many cases, you’re never going to see eye to eye on every issue.

In fact, research shows that 69% of conflict in a relationship is unresolvable and perpetual. It’s not going to get “fixed” — ever.

Gottman discovered that it’s not the disagreements themselves that predict whether partnerships remain healthy, what matters is how the partners deal with those disagreements.

Relationship longevity depends on whether the parties prioritize finding positive ways to understand and accept these differences, or instead focus on trying to force the other to accept their side.

Gottman’s research is very clear that the former approach is far superior. But it’s not always easy to take for most of us, especially when arguments get heated.

What Dooms Relationships: The 4 Horsemen

Over his decades of research, Gottman found that some couples were exceptionally good at managing conflict, and some were spectacularly bad at it. But studying these “Masters and Disasters Of Relationship” closely, best practices and worst practices for nurturing valued long-term relationships became clear.

Couples who fail to stay together, especially the “Disasters”, all exhibit at least one of the following toxic behaviors, termed “The 4 Horsemen” by Gottman:

  • Criticism
  • Defensiveness
  • Stonewalling
  • Contempt

Criticism is finding fault in your partner’s character. Rather than having a rational basis, you frame the cause of a disagreement as due to a deficiency in the other person (e.g., “You’re so stubborn.” “You never try to understand me.” “You just don’t get it.”) Understandably, this comes across as an attack, and emotionally riles up the person on the receiving end.

Defensiveness is expressed as an attempt to protest against a perceived injustice. The most common expressions of defensiveness are adopting a victim mentality and counter-attacking. The former exasperates, the latter escalates.

Stonewalling occurs when one listener mentally withdraws from interaction. It’s basically an abandonment of any attempt to repair the situation. Common signs are no/monosyllabic responses, not appearing to be listening, avoiding eye contact, and arm crossing. Stonewalling sends a strong signal to the other party that you don’t care enough (about their feelings, about being in relationship with them) to fight through the discomfort of the moment.

Contempt is feeling or expressing resentment towards your partner. This is the worst offense: its presence is the best predictor of divorce/break-up. Once contempt is present in a relationship, the parties see each other’s qualities and motives in a negative light by default. When you feel contempt, you feel the other person is ‘below’ you, oftentimes undeserving of you. It’s a very difficult mindset to reverse once it’s ingrained.

To see clips of each of these ‘worst practices’ in action (taken from actual couples therapy sessions), watch this short video:

How To Strengthen Your Relationships To Last

When watching the above video, each of us probably sees behavior that looks familiar. We’re all guilty at some time or another of these transgressions in our interactions with close family and friends.

But that’s not a death sentence for these relationships.

Gottman’s findings show that even the Masters Of Relationship fight. Hey, we’re all human.

But what they do exceptionally well is focusing on repair during and after a disagreement. This attempt at attenuation of injury, of demonstrating care for your partner’s well-being even while arguing with them, is the “key to relationship success” according to Gottman.

By studying the successful strategies of these “Masters”, the Gottman Institute has developed a time-proven framework and series of practices for defeating the 4 Horsemen — avoiding hurtful behavior when possible, repairing the damage when not, and using conflict when it arises to strengthen relationship bonds vs weakening them.

Applying these techniques to the areas of conflict in your marriage, your friendships and your workplace — especially when done under the guidance of a licensed therapist — can be transformative in returning strained relationships back into flourishing ones.

In Part 2: How To Manage Conflict & Build Relationships That Last we detail out the specific conflict resolution progression prescribed by the Gottman Method in a way that you can immediately start applying in your life.

This report is one of the most valuable resources we have to offer folks living together in lockdown. It’s worth every penny of the subscription. And you’ve sure got the time and incentive to read it.

And lucky you; you’re getting these gems without having to sit through the long couples weekend workshops I’ve had to. My wife drags me to one every few years to meet her continuing education requirements. (That, plus we often genuinely can use the relationship tune-up.)

Click here to read Part 2 of this report (free executive summary, enrollment required for full access).

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68 Comments

  • Fri, Apr 03, 2020 - 5:45pm

    #1
    ao

    ao

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 04 2009

    Posts: 1242

    some wives' ways of dealing with being quarantined with their husbands

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  • Fri, Apr 03, 2020 - 10:10pm

    #2

    sand_puppy

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 2285

    10+

    This has been rough on us too

    Running low on money, disruption of all the usual routines, resentment that the other isn't doing enough, that the other's differing viewpoint isn't "right" and that they just don't "get it."

    Lots of us are struggling more with the lockdown, fear of death, too much time together in a small apartment, low cash flow....

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  • Sat, Apr 04, 2020 - 4:34am

    #3
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

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    Banner year

    for morel mushrooms. Quarantined to our farm is a blessing. Mushroom hunting,gardening,working lambs for Easter sale,calve chores and enough time. However, my son and daughter in law are here as his grad school closed and they live in midtown Memphis, she is having a rough go of things.

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  • Sat, Apr 04, 2020 - 6:45am

    ao

    ao

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    robie, thanks for reminding me

    I had forgotten completely about the morels.  Have to get out into the great outdoors and start looking.

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  • Sat, Apr 04, 2020 - 6:59am

    robie robinson

    robie robinson

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    AO and others

    lamb buyers pay in cash, how best to disinfect?

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  • Sat, Apr 04, 2020 - 7:11am

    #6
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

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    I don’t mean disinfecting

    the buyers or the lambs, but how to best disinfect cash. Not launder cash but disinfect it.

     

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  • Sat, Apr 04, 2020 - 7:28am

    #7
    robie robinson

    robie robinson

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    My partner

    threw it in the dryer with a load of clothes.

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  • Sat, Apr 04, 2020 - 7:48am

    ao

    ao

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    robie, i don't have any firsthand experience with this so i'm shooting from the hip

    But from what I've learned here, this is what I'd do.  Sorry if any of this is overly obvious but I'm presenting this as if to someone who knew nothing about what we've discussed here.  I'd first do a test run.  I'd pre-heat my oven to 170 deg. F.  Once pre-heated, I'd put a single one dollar bill in and let it sit for 40 minutes.  So I'm doing a little overkill in terms of temperature and time necessary to kill the virus.  I'd check it after 40 minutes and make sure I haven't burned it up, lol.  Once determined that it is safe, then I'd put the actual amount of money in the oven to sterilize it.  Getting back to the payment, I'd have them drop the money into a plastic baggie and then seal it with a twist tie.  I wouldn't open it again until putting the money in the oven and then would dispose of the baggie.

    Another possibility is to spread the money out on a metal baking tray in a garage area and try spraying it with hydrogen peroxide or a bleach solution (doing your test run of course with a single one dollar bill to see how it held up to the  chemicals) and let it sit for an hour or so.

    By the way, do you sell your lambs live or butchered and what is their approximate weight when you sell them?  The reason I'm asking is that we've bought lambs in the past.  Butchering them ourselves saves money but is quite a job.  And they weighed close to 100 lbs.  When does lamb become mutton, lol?  I asked that question on a Tasmanian sheep ranch and the rancher gave a somewhat sheepish grin and was a bit evasive with the answer.  Do you have sheep dogs to guard and/or herd?  It was amazing to watch that rancher work his herding dogs.  The local sheep farms around here need them for protection from coyotes and especially wolves, possibly even cougars or bears.  They use Great Pyrenees or Anatolian shepherds or mixes.  The one farmer said he lost 50 lambs one year to predators before he got the dogs but he has very few losses to predators now.

     

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  • Sat, Apr 04, 2020 - 8:37am

    #9
    kunga

    kunga

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    Solitary

    Thank you, G*d, I live alone and I like my own cooking. 🐱🐱

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  • Sat, Apr 04, 2020 - 9:04am

    robie robinson

    robie robinson

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    Lambs Predators

    are generally live and 80 lbs. my personal favorite is a 120 lb hogget which is the stage between lamb and sheep. The definitions are Lamb till one year hogget till 2 then a sheep thereafter. For table quality or my relative definition is lamb till sexual maturity then a sheep. Our flock varies from 50-75 ewes. By Monday we will have sold 35 lambs born in December on pasture and weighing 50-80 lbs. on grass and mamas milk. No feed. The remaining lambs will go outa here by August. LGD’s are a must. We use Pyrs and Anatolian crosses. They will shred any perceived threat but tolerate our Border collie who is far more interested in his job than anything and I mean anything. A good BC is better than three boys and a four wheeler. Predators? Bald eagles get 10-20 lambs a year. This year only a very few as I am learning to move the flock more often which seems to confuse the eagles. Moving 50 very concerned mamas with 100 newbies who are still uncoordinated is a challenge Ken the BC would cause an explosion in the wool factory at this time in the flock. Once the lambs are a few weeks old all is well.

    I hope I answered your questions. We love our bucolic existence.

    morels like tulip poplars and southeast facing slopes. Well this is true in zone 7 Virginia. We’ve had about 35 to eat in the last three days. They are a seasonal delight!

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  • Sat, Apr 04, 2020 - 10:07am

    Snow Eater

    Snow Eater

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    Snow Eater said:

    I'd just set the cash aside somewhere and not touch it for a week or two.

     

    Disinfecting lambs and customers will take a different approach!

     

    In Canada they started making cash out of plastic a few years ago, which everyone hates. But recently I was able to dunk a wad of it into a bleach solution to disinfect it. So I guess I'll learn to love the plastic convenience.

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  • Sat, Apr 04, 2020 - 12:57pm

    ao

    ao

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    robie, thanks for the detailed answer

    I can fully understand why you love your bucolic existence.  I always enjoy reading what you have to write about your lifestyle.  You have something very special there.

    I forget about the predators from above.  The bald eagles are a tough one to deal with.  No blasting them from the sky.  So you must be by a river or lake?  On the plus side, they do seem to intimidate fairly easily and they don't hunt at night to my knowledge.

    My wife and I were walking on the beach the other day and a fog had rolled in, restricting visibility to less than a couple hundred yards.  I happened to look up and saw a bald eagle coming out of the fog flying toward us.  I yelled to my wife to look up and the eagle either heard my voice or saw my sudden hand pointing gesture and immediately veered and headed away from us.  We both laughed seeing this majestic bird so easily frightened off.

    Along this beach this is a tall white pine paired with a red pine that have some bare branches at the top where an eagle often likes to perch and look out over the lake.  Unfortunately, the storms and erosion from a high lake level undermined these beautiful old trees this winter and they have fallen down on the beach and are half buried in sand now.  Anyway whenever I would walk any of our past dogs there (all in the  70-100 lbs. range), if there was an eagle perched there, it'd always be eyeing the dog.  I would usually ignore it since I didn't want to disturb it.  But once in a while I would stop and just stare at it.  I'd notice that fairly quickly, it'd turn its head a little bit and begin to look increasingly unsettled the longer I stared at it.  If I got right under the tree and stared for longer than a minute or so, it'd almost invariably decide to fly off.  Maybe you could try drone fly-overs or get a surplus weather balloon with some mylar streamers attached and tether it over your flock with some kit string.   Just brain storming here a bit.

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  • Sat, Apr 04, 2020 - 1:23pm

    thc0655

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    Think twice before sending a drone to scare off eagles or hawks

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  • Sat, Apr 04, 2020 - 1:50pm

    ao

    ao

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    Yep, lol, I've seen those videos

    You'll note I didn't specifically say to fly the drone to chase the eagle.  That would be illegal.  I just mentioned fly-overs.  If any eagle happens to come along, oh well, it's just a coincidence while I was videoing my flock.  That being said, if the drone flier is not fully aware of the eagle, the eagle may successfully attack the drone to protect its territory, especially if its nest is nearby.  I'd never fly a drone near an eagle's nest.

    However, you'll occasionally see smaller birds driving off a large raptor including eagles.  Maneuverability neutralizes the advantage of size and strength.  An eagle isn't a falcon or even a hawk.  That rotary wing drone wasn't attacked by an eagle.  A fixed wing drone would lose against any of them as we saw.  But a rotary wing drone can do something that an eagle can't  ... rapid vertical ascent and sudden linear directional changes.  A good drone pilot would use that to their advantage to get the heck out of its way.  It'd be an interesting contest but if it was me piloting the drone, I'd put my money on the bird, lol.

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 7:47am

    #15

    AKGrannyWGrit

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    Topics NOT discussed during this pandemic, sadly

    Topics NOT discussed during this pandemic

    Home is a dangerous place to be for a big percentage of the population (especially children)
    Mental Health is NOT being addressed during this pandemic

    Here is a start

     

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 11:25am

    #16

    westcoastjan

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 04 2012

    Posts: 385

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    UN call for action on domestic violence - seconding Granny's comment

    https://calgaryherald.com/pmn/health-pmn/countries-must-tackle-horrifying-domestic-abuse-surge-amid-lockdowns-un-chief/wcm/1da8a911-b261-42ce-b6da-2a411989947c/wcm/1da8a911-b261-42ce-b6da-2a411989947c/

    One thing I have noted about this site, historically speaking, is that the comments and debates on what I would call the 'soft' subjects - things related to emotions, feelings, domestic aspects of life - are much less robust and often of significantly smaller volume than for the other more common subjects. Take this article by Adam as an example. The volume of engagement is reflected in the low number of comments. Compare this to the high number of comments for the majority of the other Covid-19 related articles, some which number in the 100s.

    If people are not willing to engage on such a serious topic as domestic violence, mental health and emotional resilience then we are doing ourselves a disservice by not covering the spectrum of all the important things that affect our lives and communities. It takes a village, but only when that village does not turn a blind eye to some of the horrors that are going on within it.

    Jan

     

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 12:46pm

    ao

    ao

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    AKGranny, did you actually watch this video?

    At around 2:28, Wolff said "attaching a nationality to a virus is an invention of Donald Trump".  Really?  What planet have these people been living on?  I guess they never heard of Hong Kong flu, German measles, Guinea worm, Spanish flu, etc., etc.  A whole host of diseases have been named after the place of actual or suspected origin way before Donald Trump came along.

    This video came across more as a political hit piece than a valid psychological discussion.  Do you realize Wolff is a Marxian economist and Fraad is his wife who is also a diehard Marxist, daughter to a hardcore Communist father, and one of the founder's of the Women's Liberation Movement, which is also a Marxist movement at its core.  And both are from NYC, an area that is widely acknowledged as often NOT representing the sentiment of most of America and tends to have rather skewed viewpoints.

    Plus, look at their eyes when they talk.  Both suffer from "crazy eyes" and seem a bit kooky.  I would suspect that neither one is the most healthy mentally.

    Mental health is certainly a concern at times like this but this video did not do a good job of supporting that position.

    Can you find something a bit better?

     

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 12:50pm

    Jim H

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    Cultural Marxism is used to divide us

    Don't fall for it.  Thank you AO.

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 1:18pm

    ao

    ao

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    Jan, i'm not sure why you wonder about less attention to the soft subjects on this site

    This is a site that focuses on things that are more objective than subjective and more on facts and data than beliefs and opinions.  Emotions and feelings, on the other hand, do not lend themselves well to quantification.  Also, there are more men on this site than women and most men tend, for better or worse, to be less likely to focus as much on their feelings as women do.  Contrary to politically correct belief, men and women are not the same.  We are different and that is a good thing.  Neither one is superior or inferior to the other.  We are designed to be complementary to one another, not the same as one another and not antagonistic to one another.

    AKGranny and you and others (both female and male) bringing up these issues is fine but don't necessarily expect all the men to jump in to the same extent and with the same fervor.  Don't get me wrong.  I am a big believer in the value and role of emotions.  Otherwise, we wouldn't have them.  But like anything that can entail a great deal of power, they need to be appropriately channeled and expressed.

    Something that I often observe is the tendency of some individuals to wallow in their emotions.  They will talk about them and express them and repeat them and rehearse them again and again but without ever reaching any kind of resolution.  I call it emotion porn.  They indulge in it for the feelings it brings them in an attempt to fill some kind of void in their life but the extent to which they do that is not healthy for them or those around them.

    I agree that households of dysfunctional families can be very dangerous for various family members, sometimes children, sometimes women, and sometimes even men.  In my experience both as a former health care professional and also as a lay person interacting with certain families in charitable contexts, it can be absolutely heart breaking to see the horrendous social and psychologic conditions some people live under.  The dysfunction can be absolutely appalling.

    We can look at such terrible circumstances as social problems, and they are, but my personal feeling is that they are more fundamentally moral and spiritual problems.  When the moral fabric and spiritual foundation of society is increasingly torn apart as has occurred with the pervasive spread of such Marxist thought as critical theory and the associated political correctness, the result is we get what we now see.

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 1:37pm

    #20

    AKGrannyWGrit

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    Posts: 1018

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    Awareness

    So, because you can’t attack the message that we are in a mental health crisis and a child abuse and domestic violence  crisis....., you attack the narrator.

    Thats pathetic. Put a sock in it ao.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/2892923001

     

    Above - USA Today highlights the increase in abuse and violence during the Pandemic.

    “Even kids in otherwise functional families could face peril as parents unaccustomed to providing round-the-clock care and stressed by the collapsing economy are pushed to the edge. “

    Risk factors for child abuse and neglect – including parental stress, economic instability and housing insecurity – increase in situations like this, according to Dr. Melissa Merrick, president and CEO of Prevent Child Abuse America.

    I have not even included ANY statistics on domestic violence.

    For that person who us indeed reading this and living in a violent environment, please know help is available.  There are now chat features on many crisis websites.

    Parents in need of talk support can call the National Parent Helpline at 1-855-427-2736or the Childhelp National Child Abuse Hotline at 1-800-4-A-CHILD. To report child abuse or neglect, contact law enforcement or child protective services in your county.

    Domestic violence hotline

    Our advocates are available 24/7 at 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) in more than 200 languages. All calls are free and confidential.

    AKGrannyWGrit

     

     

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 1:45pm

    fionnbharr

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    Posts: 79

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    Idiocracy on Another Level

    ao,

    there's no getting over the fact that Donald Trump is a seriously crazy eyed malignant shit-funnel, if ever there were one.

    Read where you will in the world press, and other than having a head stuck up the ass of Fox News, he's successfully slowed down effective timely planning. He called Coronavirus flu for weeks, and reduced the possibility of the American public, ever seeing a face mask as an iconic fashion item, such as every south Korean, and anyone entering a shop in Austria.

    He's also made quite a few comments about China that were seen to have a racist bent by a great many of the world press - and by good old Marxist laughing boy Wolfe, to boot.

    Reading around the net, I saw one guy say that he'd be quite happy kicking Donald's severed head around Lafeyette Square for hours for what he's caused in deaths and delays. He was offering dibs on team color's.

    And since we're here, you can bet that a serial malignant narcissistic sociopath like Trump, makes for an interesting portrait of family life, what with a six year old's demeanour for temper tantrum's, and a drive to have his sticky little hands fingering the button as if it were a paid whore's honey pot.

    Nope. Definitely not a good responsible leading public figure and role model, in stopping locked-down dear-hearts beating their loved-ones brains out when the moment strikes.

    Fin

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 1:47pm

    #22

    davefairtex

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    Posts: 2025

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    nationality of a virus

    I'm reasonably confident that the "nationality" of this virus does indeed belong to Wuhan, China, and deserves to be dropped right into the lap of the CCP.

    Executive summary: evidence suggests an accident at the Wuhan Virology Lab led to the outbreak, compounded by the CCP's desire to cover it up rather than acting to stop said outbreak.   Any group that decides to arrest doctors attempting to warn people about the outbreak is guilty of treason against humanity, at least in my book.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/04/coronavirus-china-trail-leading-back-to-wuhan-labs/

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 2:17pm

    ao

    ao

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    Fin, i hope you realize

    I wasn't offering either a defense or a criticism of Trump.  I was questioning the accuracy of the statement made by Wolff and the value and orientation of the video.  The video was supposed to be about mental health, not about politics.  Surely, you've been around here long enough to realize how the Hegelian dialectic operates and there is no salvation in either the right or the left.  I think there were problems in the world before Trump came along and there will be long after he is gone.

    FWIW, I went grocery shopping with my wife today and in one of the areas of the country slowest to catch on in trends, probably 40% of the people in the store were wearing masks and we only have 14 cases in our whole county, one of the biggest counties in land area east of the Mississippi.  So there is a cultural shift occurring, Trump or no Trump.

    By the way, have you ever been wrong and changed your mind in light of new evidence?  I sure have.

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 2:37pm

    ao

    ao

    Status: Platinum Member

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    Posts: 1242

    1+

    AKGranny, thank you for responding to my request to provide better material

    The information in your last post was certainly better than the interview of Mr. and Mrs. Manhattan Marxist in the previous post, your false accusation and rude sock reference excluded.

    Two other points.  First, when you cut and paste the contents of an article verbatim as you did with the Cloward-Piven strategy post, you would be wise to show proper attribution.  Otherwise, you are committing plagiarism.

    Second, I was surprised you had no response to my reply to your post #58 about profit on this thread:

    Coronavirus: A Dangerous Geo-Political Blame Game Erupts

    No sharing of your bountiful wisdom?

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 2:54pm

    Captain Queeg

    Captain Queeg

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 25 2020

    Posts: 28

    5+

    RE: Idiocracy on Another Level

    Fin,

    Very interesting rambling, incoherent rebuttal, and one that displays a lack of emotional intelligence and self-awareness. It's all of our responsibility to prepare ourselves. Personally, I'm not going to rely on the government to tell me whether or not to protect myself with a mask (I have worn a mask & gloves for 3 weeks in public)...I will make those choices on my own as should every adult.

    P.S. Might want to check your spelling & syntax...rolls are good with butter...role models...notsomuch…;0)

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 2:58pm

    #26
    Durable

    Durable

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 24 2020

    Posts: 26

    6+

    Parental instincts vs clueless power hungry officials

    Without downplaying the potential for an increase in domestic violence and abuse. Abhorrent, regrettable, indefensible behavior...

    We should think very carefully about advocating for authorizing rhe use of force to separate children from their parents.

    Soros is on record that he would like to use the covid crisis (never let one go to waste) to end the nuclear family with its archaic patriarchal structure...

    So, perhaps we have been useful idiots on many fronts, using fiat currency, buying based on lowest price, voting for benefits from the public till...but I would posit that it is borderline blasphemy to advocate that strangers with badges would better serve the interests of children than their nuclear and extended family.

    Do we really want the people that brought us don't test dont tell to come door to door to ensure the kids are all good?

    God help us all.

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 3:18pm

    fionnbharr

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Sep 27 2012

    Posts: 79

    2+

    Stratospheric number's

    ao,

    that's not 40% of 330,000,000 people, that's 40% of a store in a county.

    I suggest you wait 6 weeks before accounting certainty to the safety of where you live.

    There's an almost apocalyptic level of infection encroaching the United States.

    As of the last 10 minutes : -

    363,337 infected.

    26,664 new cases today since midnight.

    10,754 current deaths.

    1,138 people have died in under 15 hours today.

    5 days to double infection quotas.

    5 days to double the number of deaths.

    The numbers are far beyond anything seen anywhere but America to date - probably comparable to numbers that'll be drawn from the continent of Africa, long after the event.

    The Hegelian dialect?

    What about mob rule?

    For example, Dave defended Donald Trumps Racism, but couldn't defend the accuracy of my views, because they're true.

    Trump is a malignant shit-funnel.

    That isn't a political point of view.

    That's pretty much golden.

    The problems that are caused by his public relations mill are far beyond the scale of what has come before in any hostage setting.

    Lets leave it there for a week or two, shall we?

    I've been quietly following your back and forth's over a number of days.

    You should be kinder to Granny, ao.

    A bit more respectful, considering the challenge of our times.

    Bullying people on forums for sport isn't clever for a man of your years. It's a disgrace, and it hasn't gone unnoticed, even by Nate.

    Maybe it would help if you learned to be less of a dick?

    Surely there's room for improvement in light of that new evidence?

    Fin

    P.s There's always a spelling Nazi somewhere amidst, isn't there Captain 'Troof' Queeg.

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 3:40pm

    ao

    ao

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    Posts: 1242

    2+

    Fin, if you notice

    I've been more respectful to Granny than she has  to me.  I'd say more but I'll only get myself into trouble.  I will take your recommendations under advisement.  In fact, I'll definitely be more polite than you are about Trump.

     

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 3:49pm

    #29

    fionnbharr

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Sep 27 2012

    Posts: 79

    Fiction Over Form

    Trump can take it ao. He was bragging that he was number one on Facebook, just the other day. Fiction over form, no doubt.

    Fin

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 3:52pm

    ao

    ao

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    Fin, so can Granny

    Fact over fable.  She's a big girl.  She'd probably kick Trump's ass in a mud wrestling match.

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 4:49pm

    fionnbharr

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Sep 27 2012

    Posts: 79

    5+

    Bullying & Manipulative Tactics Post Harvey Weinstein - Go Figure!

    Dave,

    can I remind you of a thread from 6 years ago called : -

    Life Is What We Make Of It - Mastering Emotional Resilience

    There was a post you wrote about the bullying tactics of a member who you proved without a shadow of a doubt was using a sock puppet. That person was ao, whose doppelganger was troof.

    You can Ctrl F and read the post if I give you the opening of your post to him, which was : -

    "troof-ao-I'm confused.  I was responding to troof, but … is that the same as ao?"

    What confuses me is that this man was outright banned for bullying and spitefulness, and he's now back, still doing it, 6 years later!!!

    Also, I suggest studying the ip address of Captain Queeg, because, I assert, it's one and the same!!!

    Fin

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 5:14pm

    #32
    Sparky1

    Sparky1

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 21 2016

    Posts: 659

    1+

    FSS: "The Real Reason You Are On Quarantine and Why it Will Last Longer" (video)

    Brad Harris/Full Spectrum Survival, "THE REAL REASON YOU ARE IN QUARANTINE AND WHY IT WILL LAST LONGER" (4/6/20)

    (Source links in pinned posted first comment.)

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 5:18pm

    ao

    ao

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    Fin, that's a low blow

    You're going to make a linkage to Harvey Weinstein?  Really?  You condemn me but you do something that unseemly?

    I did adopt the troof personna (and I stand by what I said in that thread as it was all factual) but you're wrong about Captain Queeg.  He's his own person.  It's time to check your emotions.

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 5:44pm

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 21 2016

    Posts: 659

    3+

    Ao, you "adopted" an alt PP "persona"?? Ok, that's a bit weird.

    Ao/"troof", you "adopted" an alt PP persona??? For what purpose? Why did you think that was ok? Were you playing or baiting people for more "thought exercises"? That seems more than a bit duplicit and intentionally misleading, and just plain weird. Are there any other alt personalities you've "adopted" here on PP that we should be aware of?

    Save for a few obvious trolls, I've always had a degree of confidence that posters here on PP were authentic and well-intentioned, even when I haven't always agreed with their perspectives.

    Very disconcerting, but, for me, it provides additional context to your posts.

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 6:13pm

    #35

    AKGrannyWGrit

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2011

    Posts: 1018

    4+

    OMG - Light Bulb Moment

    Duh, I get the Weinstein reference.

    I post something and receive condescension and criticism. When I say something I am called “playing the victim”.  Thank you, I am not crazy and it’s an ongoing script.  Shut up and tolerate or your the victim.

    It’s offensive.  And yet so very tolerated.

    Thank you.  We deserve better!

    AKGrannyWGrit

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 6:25pm

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

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    Joined: Jul 21 2016

    Posts: 659

    3+

    I read the thread. Same MO.

    Wow, a lot of energy went into hair-splitting, lengthy, well-researched but off-topic and feigned righteous indignation in the AO/troof comments on that thread. ( The thread is worth reading before those comments "disappear".) I'm not trying to be harsh, but I see the same condescending, dense commenting style and set-up for the passive-aggressive punch-line for both personalities, then and currently. Ao/troof apparently got mixed-up as to which persona was responding to Dave for which argument. Not apparent is why/when the troof persona got banned.

    I understand better now the baiting tactics used to "stir the pot", which I'll ignore hereafter.

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 6:36pm

    #37

    westcoastjan

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 04 2012

    Posts: 385

    4+

    Wow!

    A thread about maintaining relationships during tough times, which a few of us also advocated to include domestic violence and mental health has morphed into a shit storm with Trump and Marxism front and centre. Ugh!! 😠

    This does not enhance my hope within this crisis, or for humanity in general, in any way, shape or form. I wanna put a paper bag over my head reading this crap and go back out to my garden with a good book.

    I had truly hoped for intelligent discourse on this subject, and for the ‘men’ on this site to weigh in and show they have more substance to them than their hardcore devotions to 3E subjects, MMT, 911 crap, climate change debates and the merits of PM as a hedge.

    Colour me disappointed. Seriously disappointed.  You all talk the talk about building community and social capital. Please tell me where domestic violence and people struggling with mental health issues fit into your idea of community.

    Seriously guys, step up and weigh in! Please.

    Jan

     

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 6:39pm

    #38

    dtrammel

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 762

    5+

    You Can't Force People To Engage

    If people are not willing to engage on such a serious topic as domestic violence, mental health and emotional resilience then we are doing ourselves a disservice by not covering the spectrum of all the important things that affect our lives and communities. It takes a village, but only when that village does not turn a blind eye to some of the horrors that are going on within it. Jan

    As much as you or Granny might want us all to address those subjects, you can't force people to engage in them if they don't want to. They talk about subjects that interest them, not you or someone else. I'm a 62 year old single white man with a pretty stable mental attitude. I'm not particularly interested in talking about any of those three issues, and anything I did say would come from a position of uninformedness. Same thing with precious metals, out of my interest and my expertise. Like I said to JimH about the drug HC, if it doesn't interest me, I'll just scroll past it.

    If you want them addressed then by all means, write up a good article and cover the subject in detail, then post it. No one is stopping you and if what you write sparks people's thoughts then they will comment. Just don't get on Adam or Chris when they don't do the work for you.

    Not every forum must be a soapbox for your preferred issues. And not every thread must come back to them either.

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 6:41pm

    fionnbharr

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Sep 27 2012

    Posts: 79

    1+

    11 Warning Signs of Gaslighting

    Granny Grit,

    11 Warning Signs of Gaslighting

    Gaslighting is a tactic in which a person or entity, in order to gain more power, makes a victim question their reality. It works much better than you may think. Anyone is susceptible to gaslighting, and it is a common technique of abusers, dictators, narcissists, and cult leaders. It is done slowly, so the victim doesn't realize how much they've been brainwashed. For example, in the movie Gaslight (1944), a man manipulates his wife to the point where she thinks she is losing her mind.

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 6:48pm

    fionnbharr

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Sep 27 2012

    Posts: 79

    1+

    Domestic Violence & Gaslighting

    Jan,

    this thread is about domestic violence. But it is also about the power that narcissists have in many settings, using tools such as gaslighting, in places such as forum boards.

    It is so insidious, so blatant, yet, so hidden in plain sight, is it true you've needed me to point out its violence upon the simple act of conversation here?

    Fin

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 6:56pm

    #41

    dtrammel

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 762

    1+

    Snarl Words

    Cultural Marxism is used to divide us

    Don’t fall for it.  Thank you AO.

    I would second that. Too many people use words like conservative or socialist not as actual descriptive labels but as "snarl words". You might as well fill the label in with "badly bad badness person".

    Disagree with the words someone uses and reply to that, instead of inserting overly broad generalities and label them with a term that is heavy with the sugar syrup that no one can agree on.

     

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 7:00pm

    westcoastjan

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 04 2012

    Posts: 385

    Not whatsoever,

    I am my own person, confident in my values and views, which are sometimes but not always fully expressed on this site. Suffice to say on this topic we are once again facing a disinterested majority. This is nothing new... Pity. We as a society are all the poorer for it.

    D Trammel, I find your comment rather rich...

    Jan

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 7:01pm

    ao

    ao

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    Posts: 1242

    3+

    Sparky 1, it's a long story

    I had my reason.  If you go back through the threads, you might be able to figure it out.  To reassure you though, anything I've ever posted has been accurate to the best of my knowledge.  And I've posted a lot of valuable information.  You might even find the thread, probably more than 10 years ago, where I first recommended elderberry (in the form of Sambucol) for its anti-viral effects which had not been mentioned on this site previously to my knowledge.  You might also find Fin thanking me for the recommendation of the  book, Gifted Hands: The Ben Carson Story (which was pre 2016 so I wouldn't be surprised if her opinion completely flipped on him).  Or conversely, her post denigrating the site on March 31, 2019 which I think she might find to be a bit embarrassing now.

    If you are truly interested in finding context, go back and search through all those  threads.  I think you'll find context that explains a lot.  If you want to judge on the basis of partial knowledge, be my guest but you'll probably wind being as right as Fin was about Captain Queeg, meaning not at all.  For one, you'll see context of someone who is insecure about their educational level and insecure about their lack of financial success repeatedly ragging on those better educated and more financially successful.  Well, that and the frequently incorrect accompanying statements get annoying and I'm only human so I respond.

    Yeah, I am the opposite of a diplomat.  I was so impressed with how diplomatic Chris was with the virologist.  I'm the anti-diplomat.  If you want a war started, send me in and I'll wind up doing it without even intending to, lol.  But at least I'm not a self righteous hypocrite.  I guess that comes from being the son of a Marine drill sergeant and learning never to back down regardless of the odds (including hypocrites who purportedly oppose bullying, piling on and bullying themselves) and calling them as I see them, political correctness be damned.  I was raised as a fighter which perhaps wasn't the best thing for peace and harmony but if I hadn't been, to be quite frank, I wouldn't be alive today.  So you can pass judgement on me but to use a quote someone else used here, you haven't walked in my moccasins.

    If you wish to live in an echo chamber and never encounter dissent or debate and you want everything sugar coated, that's fine.  You won't learn nearly as much and the truth will frequently evade you.  That being said, I'm through discussing the issue so the gossipers can enjoy their mutual massages.

     

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 7:07pm

    fionnbharr

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Sep 27 2012

    Posts: 79

    1+

    Can a Gaslighter Justify Their Gaslighting Fraud? Answer Truthfully ...

    dtrammel,

    "Be of good comfort, Master Ridley, and play the man! We shall this day light such a candle, by God's grace, in England, as I trust shall never be put out. " Hugh Latimer - 1487 - 1555

    1. They tell blatant lies.

    You know it's an outright lie. Yet they are telling you this lie with a straight face. Why are they so blatant? Because they're setting up a precedent. Once they tell you a huge lie, you're not sure if anything they say is true. Keeping you unsteady and off-kilter is the goal.

    2. They deny they ever said something, even though you have proof. 

    You know they said they would do something; you know you heard it. But they out and out deny it. It makes you start questioning your reality—maybe they never said that thing. And the more they do this, the more you question your reality and start accepting theirs.

    3. They use what is near and dear to you as ammunition. 

    They know how important your kids are to you, and they know how important your identity is to you. So those may be one of the first things they attack. If you have kids, they tell you that you should not have had those children. They will tell you'd be a worthy person if only you didn't have a long list of negative traits. They attack the foundation of your being.

    4. They wear you down over time.

    This is one of the insidious things about gaslighting—it is done gradually, over time. A lie here, a lie there, a snide comment every so often...and then it starts ramping up. Even the brightest, most self-aware people can be sucked into gaslighting—it is that effective. It's the "frog in the frying pan" analogy: The heat is turned up slowly, so the frog never realizes what's happening to it.

    5. Their actions do not match their words.

    When dealing with a person or entity that gaslights, look at what they are doing rather than what they are sayingWhat they are saying means nothing; it is just talk. What they are doing is the issue.

    6. They throw in positive reinforcement to confuse you. 

    This person or entity that is cutting you down, telling you that you don't have value, is now praising you for something you did. This adds an additional sense of uneasiness. You think, "Well maybe they aren't so bad." Yes, they are. This is a calculated attempt to keep you off-kilter—and again, to question your reality. Also look at what you were praised for; it is probably something that served the gaslighter.

    7. They know confusion weakens people. 

    Gaslighters know that people like having a sense of stability and normalcy. Their goal is to uproot this and make you constantly question everything. And humans' natural tendency is to look to the person or entity that will help you feel more stable—and that happens to be the gaslighter.

    8. They project.

    They are a drug user or a cheater, yet they are constantly accusing you of that. This is done so often that you start trying to defend yourself, and are distracted from the gaslighter's own behavior.

    9. They try to align people against you.

    Gaslighters are masters at manipulating and finding the people they know will stand by them no matter what—and they use these people against you. They will make comments such as, "This person knows that you're not right," or "This person knows you're useless too." Keep in mind it does not mean that these people actually said these things. A gaslighter is a constant liar. When the gaslighter uses this tactic it makes you feel like you don't know who to trust or turn to—and that leads you right back to the gaslighter. And that's exactly what they want: Isolation gives them more control.

    10. They tell you or others that you are crazy.

    This is one of the most effective tools of the gaslighter, because it's dismissive. The gaslighter knows if they question your sanity, people will not believe you when you tell them the gaslighter is abusive or out-of-control. It's a master technique.

    11. They tell you everyone else is a liar.

    By telling you that everyone else (your family, the media) is a liar, it again makes you question your reality. You've never known someone with the audacity to do this, so they must be telling the truth, right? No. It's a manipulation technique. It makes people turn to the gaslighter for the "correct" information—which isn't correct information at all.

    The more you are aware of these techniques, the quicker you can identify them and avoid falling into the gaslighter's trap.

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 7:38pm

    #45

    dtrammel

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 762

    1+

    Why?

    D Trammel, I find your comment rather rich…Jan

    Why Jan? Clearly you meant your comment as a put down, but didn't bother to justify why you felt my points weren't valid. Please elaborate?

    One of the things I don't care for in internet forum discussions is too few people actually can have an disagreement over an issue without resulting in going for emotional button pushing, rather than a calm back and forth over the facts.

    People want to score points with their tribe, not change minds.

    Care to prove me wrong?

     

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 7:45pm

    #46

    dtrammel

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 762

    1+

    Don't Understand Your Point Fionnbharr

    Can a Gaslighter Justify Their Gaslighting Fraud? Answer Truthfully ...
    dtrammel

    I know what "gaslighting" is Fionnbarr. I'm unclear what your list has to do with me? Are you somehow implying I'm trying to gaslight people here?

    ADDED: Fionnbarr has contacted me via PM, and we've cleared their point up. Disregard my question then.

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 7:52pm

    #47
    alanrgreenland

    alanrgreenland

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    Joined: Nov 07 2010

    Posts: 56

    8+

    Am I the only one who sees the irony here?

     

    Adam's blog post is about how relationships can be damaged during these trying times, and the comments thread devolves into spiteful sniping and outright character assassination...  I mean, not that I haven't seen that here before, but did any of you read the original blog post by Adam?  Do you consider yourselves to be in relationships with each other, at all?  I mean, what the actual f**k are we all doing here, anyway?!  Maybe we should reduce heat and simmer for just a little while.

     

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 8:06pm

    #48

    dtrammel

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 762

    1+

    Rocking Out In The Family Car

    Adam’s blog post is about how relationships can be damaged during these trying times, and the comments thread devolves into spiteful sniping and outright character assassination.

    That bucket of cold water thrown is well timed, Alan.

    I heard today a segment on NPR. The reporter was speaking on this same topic and told that her own family situation had gotten rather tense. She had all of her family, husband and kids go out and sit in the car together, with some kicking rock and roll playing. They ended up singing to the music together and getting rid of a lot of stress.

    Perhaps we should go back to posting Youtube music videos here.

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 8:13pm

    mntnhousepermi

    mntnhousepermi

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 19 2016

    Posts: 286

    presumption of genders ?

    Jan, you ask the "men" to step up and engage in a conversation you want to have.  Why do you think the participation or lack thereof is divided by gender ?  Most people on this site do not have a gendered nickname nor a photo.   I for one do not know or care of the gender of someone I am talking to here, and I realy do not know. Ao, Sparky, fionnbarh, durable, captain queg, robie  -- I have no idea of gender from those nicknames and do not see any reason to know or care about gender.  Sand Puppy and Dtrammel included a photo, so if that is realy their photo, then they look male ( and please excuse me if I was presumptious in assuming that !)

     

    I do not get your preoccupation with wanting to divide along gender lines.  Why cant we just have our opinions and interests because those happen to be our opinions and interests ?

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 8:25pm

    westcoastjan

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 04 2012

    Posts: 385

    Only if...

    They are ALL closed captioned for the  D/deaf and hard of hearing to enjoy as well!

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 8:35pm

    #51

    dtrammel

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 762

    1+

    Real Photo, Less Hair

    Sand Puppy and Dtrammel included a photo, so if that is really their photo, then they look male.

    No that's me.

    Jan, you ask the “men” to step up and engage in a conversation you want to have.

    I'm trying to make the point that not all of us have the foundation to address the subject some of you want to discuss. Unless you want us to just repost your preferred opinion or view point. That I won't do.

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 8:41pm

    #52

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1105

    2+

    One for Jan

    I yelled at Jan a few days ago and I should not have.. I get carried away sometimes.  Jan is one of my old friends here.

    Anyway, I was going to post a music video as per DT, but then realized this would not be amenable for Jan.  I do though have another form of escape that I have discovered recently that, although it has some simple soundtrack, is at least 95% eye candy.  In these times of angst it's just nice to escape... for me I have been watching and listening to old Carpenters and Glenn Campbell songs... not sure why but they are comforting to me.

    Anyway, here is a few minutes of escape in rural China that show the beauty of a  simpler, more self-sufficient kind of life;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsoMcrCKC7Y

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 9:25pm

    #53

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2025

    7+

    nations, governments, political systems, vs race

    fion-

    I think people sometimes conflate nations with races.  For instance, "Mexican" isn't a race - or even a culture, really.  Its a people in a country.  Or a food.  As in, "I practically grew up eating mexican food."  Is that racist?  Well, not to me.

    Likewise, "Chinese" isn't a race either, it's a country.  Saying, as I did, that the virus came from Wuhan, China isn't racist.  Wuhan isn't a race, its a city.  Saying the CCP tried to cover it up - not racist either.  CCP is a government, not a race.  Saying this government committed a crime against humanity - that's not racist either.  They are a government, not a race.  I'm a huge fan of Taiwan, and how they handled things.  Taiwan isn't a race either, its a country.

    From my perspective, Trump went through a phase of calling it "Chinese" coronavirus because the CCP was trying to put the word out that the US actually planted it on Chinese territory, in order to blame-shift.  I experienced this campaign first hand.  Friends of mine in Asia were asking me, "hey, did the US really plant the virus?"  Trump was just responding to that.  He stopped doing it once the Chinese stopped pushing that theory.

    Of course you still might persist in seeing things through a "race" lens, but to me it has little explanatory power in terms of what concepts are primary drivers of people's actions.  Certainly it didn't explain my actions, Trump's actions, or the CCP's actions.  Nobody was focused on race.

    I did find it interesting that the CCP loves to use our own culture's considerable focus on racism against us.  They are fantastic at manipulation.  Again, since the CCP isn't a race, they're a government/oligarchy, that's not a racist comment.

     

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 9:57pm

    #54

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2025

    5+

    stress & choices

    Apropos of the ostensible topic at hand - stress during lockdown - I will totally go along with that.  The whole feeling in my neighborhood has a strong undercurrent of fear to it.  Even inside my home, I can feel it.  I suspect that's true worldwide.

    What's more, everyone has their own situation to deal with.  For instance, if I were married to a healthcare worker, do you think that might add to the stress of my situation?  Maybe a little.  And let's imagine that my wife had several friends at work who just recently tested positive for COVID.  More stress.

    So the tension and choice is, retaining togetherness and mutual support during this time of fear vs increased risk of exposure.

    Nobody here really knows what the other guy (or gal) is actually going through.

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 10:07pm

    Sparky1

    Sparky1

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 21 2016

    Posts: 659

    2+

    Ao/troof, you provide deflection but no answers to your PP alt persona deception

    Ao/troof, you gave a lengthy response but failed to answer the fundamental questions I asked about your PP alternative persona deception. I'll restate my questions for clarity:

    1) For what purpose [did you create and continue to post under the alternative personal "troof"]?

    2) Why did you think that was ok?

    3) Were you playing or baiting people for more “thought exercises” [or for other purposes, i.e., what was your intent]?

    4) Are there any other alt personalities you’ve “adopted” here on PP that we should be aware of?

    This isn't about being "accurate" or providing "valuable information"; or whether Fin thanked you, flipped her opinion on Ben Carson, denigrated you in the past and maybe is embarrassed today; or if Fin is, in your opinion, "...insecure about [his/her]  educational level and insecure about [his/her] lack of financial success repeatedly ragging on those better educated and more financially successful," or made frequently annoying "incorrect accompanying statements", or allegedly bullied you while posturing opposition against bullying.

    Nor is this about political correctness, or your self-image of being the undiplomatic son of a Marine,  a fighter who learned never to back down. (Somehow creating an alternative persona, and deflecting and evading explanations for doing so seem incongruent with your self-description of being a fighter and not backing down.)

    You said, "I had my reason," but never state what that reason(s) was/is. Instead, you suggest several times with some intrigue that I "...go back through the threads, you might be able to figure it out, " and, "If you are truly interested in finding context, go back and search through all those threads. I think you’ll find context that explains a lot."

    No thanks, I seriously don't have the time or inclination. (The one thread I waded through had more than 50 comments, short by today's PP standards; but how many/which threads to wade through?)  In doing so, I would be left to surmise whether correctly or incorrectly, your "reason" for creating and promulgating this alternative persona "troof".  Better for me to ask (again) and you answer rather than create any misunderstandings.

    Lastly, you've implied that I'm unfairly passing judgement upon you, "So you can pass judgement on me but to use a quote someone else used here, you haven’t walked in my moccasins." I've stated my personal dismay at learning via your admission that you created an alternative PP persona, and my concern that this was misleading, duplicit and (frankly) a bit weird. (Did you up-vote your own comments and/or provide shadow statements/double team other PP commenters in support of your alt persona's arguments? "Ao/troof, I couldn't agree with you more!")

    I asked you what IMO are valid questions regarding your reasons for doing so. You have not answered those questions.

    You also suggest, incorrectly and disjointedly, that my questioning your alternative persona deception is somehow an expression of my "...wish to live in an echo chamber and never encounter dissent or debate and you want everything sugar coated...." I never said that or in any way implied that. That is simply, literally, non-sense--non sequitur.  

    You also conclude (incorrectly) that somehow as a result of my raising these concerns that I "...won’t learn nearly as much and the truth will frequently evade [me]" and state in retreat, "I’m through discussing the issue so the gossipers can enjoy their mutual massages." Note the classic Ao closing thinly veiled insulting punch-line zinger, "gossipers" and "mutual massages."

    Ao/troof, it is you who is failing to provide truthful answers and evading the legitimate questions I posed regarding your alternative PP persona deception.

    Your history of creating and promulgating an alternative persona at the very least creates confusion, misleads and raises serious questions in my mind about your reasons and intentions for doing so; and whether or not you have recently or are continuing to do so. Beyond that, it makes me wonder about the many PP discussions where, IMO, you are often at the center of and/or perhaps fomenting dissent, discord and non-productive debate sometimes devolving into personal attacks.

    This is about integrity, authenticity and credibility. I'll try to keep an open mind awaiting some plausible explanation about your reason(s) for doing so. In the absence of you providing some really compelling reasons, I personally will view your comments hereafter as those provided by one with very questionable integrity, credibility and motives.

    As you've been known to state:  I await your response.

     

     

     

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 10:40pm

    #56
    Linda T

    Linda T

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jun 09 2014

    Posts: 136

    2+

    Re: stress & choices

    davefairtex,

    I completely agree with you. In response to the fear and stress, I think I’m starting to see more and more people acting out in my area, as well as the news on TV (my roommate’s) and online. I was at the laundromat yesterday, and as I was pulling dry clothes out and leaving wet ones in for more time, this younger woman kept getting closer and closer to me. Each time I backed up (I was wearing gloves and a mask the whole time), and she would put something into the nearby garbage can. Few moments later, same thing, I would back up, and she would take something different out of the garbage. No mask or gloves on her. Finally, as she’s leaving and going out the door, she says to me with lots of snark “I’m not contagious!”. I immediately leaned out the door and said “it’s about social distancing.” Then, she said “fuck you” and flipped me off. I didn’t bother responding because I thought it could get ugly. People on buses are getting weirder and weirder too…

    Oh, one of my roommates’ coworkers refused to wear masks and gloves so he was fired yesterday since 2 or 3 co-workers were ready to walk off because of him. He had been very belligerent the last couple of weeks, kept insisting Jesus would protect him and everybody else, refused to acknowledge or be concerned if he happened to be asymptomatic and infect anybody they could die. She works at a food bank. For the last 2 or 3 weeks now, they have had people stand outside the building, ask what do you want, and then they have to back up when they open the door to place a box on the ground…

    Linda

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  • Mon, Apr 06, 2020 - 11:20pm

    #57

    dtrammel

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 762

    2+

    Not Yet

    Linda, I haven't yet had anyone give me attitude about me wearing a mask, nor keeping a safe distance when I'm out. Though as a crusty old fart who will speak his mind, I have thought what I would do if they did.

    One part of me wants to print a small sign that says "I have lung cancer, please give me space". I don't but most people would understand the concern and step back.

    The other part of me wants to print a sign that says "I will punch you in the fraking face!" and on the back side "Understand A$$hole?"

    Of course I recently began conceal carry again with all the released prison inmates, which is legal in Missouri. Though maybe I should just buy some pepper spray. Or a can of Lysol? Lysol probably. Just turn and start spraying all around you. They would get the message. Though Lysol is hard to get. Maybe just air freshener, in a really bad smell.

    ADDED: Maybe a sign that says "God says to pee on the Unbelievers!" Then just reach for your pants zipper.

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  • Tue, Apr 07, 2020 - 1:26am

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2025

    4+

    encouraging distancing, emotional support

    dtrammel-

    Suggested by a friend: he recommended a discreet cough.  Maybe a second, if the first one didn't work.  A fit of coughing if that second cough still didn't work.  That should help clear out the riff-raff out of near proximity.  🙂

    Linda-

    The whole "Jesus will protect me" thing is a tough one.  This time really brings all these "different life approaches" right to the surface.

    I remain torn.  I know my immune system works better when I am at peace - that's just biochemistry.  The trick is, how to remain in that state of peace with a viral gun to my head!

    Maybe - watch less news that seems to sell fear 24/7?

    I also know that hugging is really helpful, emotionally, for many people - including me!  It causes the brain to release oxytocin, which itself triggers reactions in the body that encourages immune and regeneration functions vs. muscles & fight/flight responses that the fear/stress response generates.

    https://www.livescience.com/42198-what-is-oxytocin.html

    Is blocking out time in the schedule for a good 20 minute hugging session too much engineering-managment approach to life?  🙂

    The whole thing is a balancing act between common sense risk minimization, while still allowing space for emotional support - which translates directly into immune system support.

    Ultimately my prescription is: be prudent, but not fearful.

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  • Tue, Apr 07, 2020 - 1:54am

    Linda T

    Linda T

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jun 09 2014

    Posts: 136

    2+

    Re: encouraging distancing, emotional support

    davefairtex,

    Well, "how to remain in that state of peace with a viral gun to my head!" is definitely a balancing act. Some days I spend less time on websites than other days, and when I need to I will watch music videos of rock 'n roll usually from the 80's-90's.

    I'll be going to my garden in the next day or two to start planting and do prep work, and later this week shop for more veggie starts too.

    Sometimes I watch some of the Corona parodies on YouTube, and some of them are very funny and some well done.

    I've seen 3 or 4 Bohemian Rhapsody parodies. This one "My Name is Corona" I watched four times laughing hysterically, and then I bookmarked it for future reference.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juugAWnBRKY&list=RDykieEE1j9eA&index=27

    I agree with your prescription too.

    Linda

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  • Tue, Apr 07, 2020 - 4:50am

    #60

    Oliveoilguy

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jun 29 2012

    Posts: 671

    10+

    Air Hugs

    I’m a huger. I’m a man......I hug men and I hug women. I hug my wife every morning. I used to hug special friends at church. I used to hug my children and my grandchildren. Now I keep my distance. But I give “air hugs” to my special friends and kids and it always gets a smile. A smile is worth a lot these days.

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  • Tue, Apr 07, 2020 - 5:37am

    #61
    Rajkumarijay

    Rajkumarijay

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 08 2020

    Posts: 50

    4+

    had to go in to work today...

    lol

    I wore my gloves, my N95, and swim goggles. I caught one guy rolling his eyes at me. Then I got a lecture from HR about how I need to check the cdc guidelines because gloves don't protect the wearer. And I have only been here for 45 minutes.

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  • Tue, Apr 07, 2020 - 9:03am

    fionnbharr

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Sep 27 2012

    Posts: 79

    2+

    Sock Puppets, Dave, That''s The Subject At Hand

    Dave,

    that moment passed, and the subject became moot when I outed ao''s use of sock puppets. You were capable of spotting him 6 years ago, but now appear trapped in some incoherent mobius loop, plodding through a third extended explanation of Trump and Chinese racism, as though the forum has lost all ability to comprehend English.

    Now, yet again, I ask - since you have the role of site monitor : -

    can I remind you of a thread from 6 years ago called : –

    Life Is What We Make Of It – Mastering Emotional Resilience

    There was a post you wrote about the bullying tactics of a member who you proved without a shadow of a doubt was using a sock puppet. That person was ao, whose doppelganger was troof.

    You can Ctrl F and read the post if I give you the opening of your post to him, which was : –

    “troof-ao-I’m confused.  I was responding to troof, but … is that the same as ao?”

    What confuses me is that this man was outright banned for bullying and spitefulness, and he’s now back, still doing it, 6 years later!!!

    Also, I suggest studying the ip address of Captain Queeg, because, I assert, it’s one and the same!!!

    Fin

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  • Tue, Apr 07, 2020 - 9:12am

    #63

    westcoastjan

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 04 2012

    Posts: 385

    5+

    Further thoughts...

    Absolutely one cannot force people to engage in discussions that do not interest them. A person can be disappointed in this and express that disappointment. And no, I do not expect Chris and Adam (who can speak for themselves by the way) to do the work for me or anyone else. They have in the past written articles inviting discussion on ‘soft side’ topics such as spirituality and emotional resilience. My observation was that there was underwhelming commentary participation, which to me signals a lack of interest. But it was not surprising given that this site is perceived to be dominated by men, something ao also spoke to in his comment. This is neither good nor bad. It just is. The issue lay with the acceptance of ‘what is’, which is at times much easier said than done.

    What I find rich is the luxury of having a choice and getting to decide where to focus our interests and efforts. That could be viewed as yet another form of wealth; that we are lucky enough that our stations in life enable us to be unaffected by or choose to remain uniformed of things that are so devastating to so many others. We are so fortunate that we can be arguing about these things and (hopefully not) living them.

    This discussion reminded me of a fabulous series of essays one of which was about the difference between morals and ethics. The author posits that morals are how you treat people you know, whereas ethics refers to how you treat people you do not know. I agree with his thinking. It is not just that society's moral fabric has been torn apart, as ao is saying, but more importantly, the ethical foundation has completely crumpled, which is why we are seeing the individual and societal breakdowns and inabilities to cope, all of which result in endemic, systemic mental health and domestic violence issues.

    The consequences of ethical failings must be laid squarely at the feet of the leaders’ managers. But we knew that already, didn’t we? But that does not mean that individuals get off scot free. If we truly are all in this together, and if we truly are on our own as Chris suggests, then we must ensure we maintain not just a strong moral compass, but an ethical one as well.

    Jim, I have no idea what you are talking about – yelling at me a few days ago. There are so many threads and forums now it is next to impossible to keep track of my own comments never mind anyone else’s. In any event, I forgive you 😉 Thanks for sticking up for me, even though it is not necessary. And thank you for the beautiful captioned video! Wow, such simple, tranquil living. I can feel the steam coming out of my ears from all the chili peppers though! After watching this one can be led to think that there is still hope for humanity!

    Stay well everyone!

    Jan

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  • Tue, Apr 07, 2020 - 9:18am

    fionnbharr

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Sep 27 2012

    Posts: 79

    6+

    Nailing Down the Personality Flaws of Classic Gaslighting

    Sparky1,

    thankyou so much for doing such an excellent job of breaking down ao''s horrendous series of out-right lies. I have the greatest respect for your ability to quick study.

    The disgusting way he tried to spin your objections, and avoid answering direct questioning are classic gaslighting tactics. They also give proof of a decidedly lacking ethical or moral fibre. His manipulative nature has left me room to pause.

    Fin

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  • Tue, Apr 07, 2020 - 9:44am

    Captain Queeg

    Captain Queeg

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 25 2020

    Posts: 28

    1+

    RE: Sock Puppets, Dave, That''s The Subject At Hand

    "Also, I suggest studying the ip address of Captain Queeg, because, I assert, it’s one and the same!!!"

    Thank you Fin,

    I will be happy to engage in meaningful and intelligent conversation sans the IP addy investigation... Furthermore, my intention is not to bully or engage in spiteful behavior...after all, this isn't ZeroHedge...

    Rather, I was merely making an observation of your post & was not hurt and had no malicious intent. Your assertion is incorrect.

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  • Tue, Apr 07, 2020 - 10:05am

    fionnbharr

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Sep 27 2012

    Posts: 79

    Catching Sockpuppets

    ... and surely this forum has the means to do such checks with a moderator, Captain Queeg?

    Fin

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  • Tue, Apr 07, 2020 - 10:42am

    #67
    MQ

    MQ

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Oct 13 2011

    Posts: 102

    2+

    When should you wear a mask? Whenever the Hell you want to...

    Aren't we all adults here, capable of making our own decisions? Why, then, would we feel it necessary to wait for permission to protect ourselves from viral assault? I've worn a mask during times of wildfire smoke, when my FD fought a house fire, sometimes even when campfires were too smoky. Central TX is known to be allergy central for the country--when my white car looks yellow because of pollen, you'd better believe I'll protect myself.

    Have I gotten strange, sidelong glances from others? Sure. They might have bothered me when I was younger, but certainly not since I've gotten old enough to wear a purple outfit with a red hat.

    If you are afraid that the disapproval may become physically threatening--wear your other personal protection out in the open (where legal) or at least wear a belt holster with a can of bear spray. Bullies tend not to bother those who look ready to defend themselves.

    But, most of all, take responsibility for your own health and safety. And to the devil with anyone who doesn't like it.

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  • Tue, Apr 07, 2020 - 8:15pm

    alanrgreenland

    alanrgreenland

    Status: Member

    Joined: Nov 07 2010

    Posts: 56

    1+

    Thanks, Jan, for the link...

     

    I've only read the first couple of essays, but I can tell it is going to be well worth reading the whole thing (eventually).  Thanks so much for posting this link; a great payoff for reading down this whole thread.  (And, I have to say, the tenor of the last several posts -- the last 24 hours -- was much more constructive.  Which is heartening.)

     

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