Chris Discusses Oil, Fracking, Fukushima & Market Bubbles with Max Keiser

Adam Taggart
By Adam Taggart on Fri, Aug 30, 2013 - 6:03pm

Chris was interviewed by Max Keiser this week. As usual, the resulting discussion was animated, insightful & entertaining.

(Chris appears at 12m:40s):

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27 Comments

LogansRun's picture
LogansRun
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Good Discussion!

Thank you!

treebeard's picture
treebeard
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One of the few

other places that I visit on the web that I visit on a regular basis, The Keiser Report.  Chris with his steady well reasoned and conservative approach to things, and Max with his flamboyant over the top antics, great combination for a well balanced media diet.

People are finally starting to get it. The sink hole of stupidity is finally starting to sink in.  Weapons of mass destruction used by Assad in Syria, really!  Fracking is going to lead to prosperity and energy independence, really?  The economy is in full recovery, really!  Fukushima is fine and totally under control, no need to do any reporting on that situation, really?  The lies and propaganda are finally starting to collapse in on themselves.

Congress and the British parliament beginning to find a backbone, we need to declare war they are finally saying. And yes when you lob missles into a foreign country, that is war.  Insurance companies not insuring houses on top of fracking wells.  Ranchers running out of water. Energy prices still extremely high. It is amazing, reality has this persistant quality it, doesn't it.

Self centered, self indulgent, short sighted, rapacious, greedy behavior doesn't lead to harmonious families, communities and countries, really?  Fear and violence don't lead to peace and harmony, really!  A "what's in it for me" attitude doesn't get me what I want, really?  They say human beings always do the right thing .......  after they have tried everything else.  Looks were are getting to the point where we have tried everything else.

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jtwalsh
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Max Keiser

            Good interview.

            I love how Max Keiser can cut through all the rhetoric and seize the heart of an issue.  His tone and presentation keep things from becoming overwhelmingly negative and depressing.  It’s a form of smiling at the enemy:  laughter in the face of doom.  This is an important skill to learn and Keiser does a great job of teaching by example.  If we cannot see the irony in our situation, if we cannot laugh at the often ridiculous propositions put before us by our politicians and the main stream media, we run the risk of being overcome and paralyzed with fear. 

Many bloggers bemoan the state of the general population.  They envision the “sheeple” as fat, willfully ignorant, greedy and lazy.  Many of us will be tempted to understand the term “sinkhole of stupidity” as not only summarizing the craziness of fracking but as a metaphor for the intellectual and political state of much of the citizenry.

I have to say, that in my own antidotal experience, the majority of people I meet are not “sheeple” at all.  They have a general sense and experience of things getting worse, of a future that will be far more difficult than the recent past.   They are not ignorant.  However, they have no idea how to begin to deal with what is happening now and  with what is to come.  They have no clue as to how to influence events on a political or social level, so they focus on the only level they can partially control; the personal level.  In order to deal with their internal fear of the future they move into a denial mode and focus all their energy on the day to day tasks of, as the British say, “Carrying on.”

   For these people the message that things are going to get worse is too painful to process and act upon.  Many bloggers discussing the future emphasize the negative, and focus on the potential horrors.  They seem to believe that the more horrible a picture they can present, the more people they will shock into reality. This undoubtedly works with some people.  Unfortunately, I believe that for most people this only pushes them further into their denial.

Treebeard is correct in saying that some people are finally waking up to reality.  As the political and economic shenanigans become more and more outrageous some folk are beginning to step out of their fear and are attempting to focus on what is happening.  I am not sure that this will develop deeply or quickly enough to bring about positive change.

One of the things I like best about Peak Prosperity is that Chris and Adam, and most of the folk who come here on a regular basis do not dwell on the negative.  There is an underlying attitude of preparing to meet the challenges with as much intelligence and force of will as we can.  There is a sense of positive growth and development which is often stated with wit and humor. 

 

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RT (Russia Today), Max Keiser, and Vladimir Putin

I also really enjoyed this interview, and I appreciate most of the relatively few RT (Russia Today) news stories that I have seen on the net.  

I also agree with almost everything that Max Keiser said during his interview with Chris, and I agreed with and appreciated what Chris said during the interview.  JT Walsh, I also agree that Keiser has a light sense of humor that makes it easier to process some of the potentially depressing issues that he covers.

On the other hand, the fact that RT is funded by the Russian government and therefore under the authority of Vladimir Putin gives me good motivation to listen to the stories with caution.  RT is the Voice of America, Russian style, and even though American news outlets are very good at propaganda in their own subtle but pervasive way, the Russians also have a long tradition of propoganda.

So, while the Keiser Report is often is a breath of fresh air for us in the United States, especially on topics such as gold, energy and the inconsistency or hypocrisy in U.S. foreign policy, the motivation of the entity that funds RT is not to create a world worth inheriting, but rather to rebuild Russia as a global superpower under the control of a select group of siloviki, i.e. current and former soldiers, police, spies and security agents, under the leadership of Putin.

In Russia, Putin does not encourage different perspectives in the media, but rather tightly controls Russian television, which is basically not allowed to criticize him.  Russia is also one of the most dangerous countries for journalists in the world, with the murder of Anna Politkovskaya on Putin's birthday in 2006 being only the most famous of many examples of the murder and beating of journalists critical of the Putin regime.

Also, the Putin is one of the most prominent world leaders who has denied global warming.  The reason I bring this up here, is because while Max Keiser may be concerned about the environment, Putin's regime is probably favors industrial and commercial development over environmental concerns more than most American Republicans.  I'm not saying that it's a crime to question global warming; everyone needs to form his/her own opinion.  But, RT focuses on environmental problems in the U.S. and England, while the same state-owned Russian media back in Russia does not focus on environmental problems there.  I would submit that this is because RT's goal is to promote Russian interests abroad, which includes poking holes in the image of the Western powers, and that Russian leaders are not spending a lot of time or energy formulating policies to protect the biosphere.

 I like media outlets that challeng overly nationalistic and/or unrealistic cornucopian views held by many in the United States and other Western powers, which is why I appreciate a lot of the perspectives aired on Russia Today.  But the fact that Putin is very likely sanctioning the murder and beating of journalists who question his own scripted narrative within Russia leads me to prefer other sources with alternative viewpoints, such as Democracy Now, as well as so many of the sources shared here on PP like ranging from ZeroHedge, to Arthur Robey's plethora of interesting links and YouTube videos.

Here are two Russian sources that do not follow Putin's script:

Andrei Soldatov's Open Democracy  (Soldatov is the author of The New Nobility, The Restoration of Russia's Security State and the Enduring Legacy of the KGB.)

and the Novaya Gazeta, the newspaper where Anna Politkovskaya worked before she was assassinated.  Politkovskaya wrote A Russian Diary: A Journalist's Final Account of a Country Going Backward and A Dirty War: A Russian Reporter in Chechnya

Again, I agree with everything that Chris said in this interview and it may be that RT is a good means to spread the very forward-looking analysis that he shares with us at Peak Prosperity, but it's also worth considering the context in which Russia Today reports the news.  

A while ago, I read somewhere that during the early days of the United States, most of the newspapers were printed by political parties.  According to that account, they were all very biased, but taken in summary, one could gather a somewhat accurate picture of many of the major issues of the time.  Now, especially in the U.S., we are very good at telling ourselves that our news media is not biased, althought here at PP, most of us seem to know better.  So, maybe a bunch of overtly biased sources is not a problem, especially if innovative messages such as the one that Chris shares are able to get more covarage through these.  At the same time, it may be helpful to identify the powers behind the source, whether a large American media corporation or the Russian government.  

Cheers,

Hugh

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Overwhelmed with goodness

As the gardening season is winding down hear in New England we are getting overwhelmed with food.  Pounds and pounds of it.  Acorns, Delicatas, Butternuts, Potatoes, tomatoes, broccoli, peppers, arugula, fennel, onions, hubbards, zucchinis(stem boarers still haven't got all of them), crook necks, blueberries (latest in the season I have ever picked them) and on and on.  And I'm a lousy gardener.

We make all our own compost, (grass clippings, leaves, and meadow cuttings), without the intense boost that you get from animal manures, things tend to start off a little slow, but I find they finish strong. With lots of organics in the soil, its soft crumbly and full of earth worms, teaming with life.  Do a little bit of weeding and watering, keep the fence intact and voila!  Raccons got about a third of our corn, but still we got a few dozens.  The generosity of natural systems.  There is enough!

I don't think that I am particularly focused or disciplined either.  I grew up in the same dysfunctional type family that most of us did.  Grew up in NYC, never had a garden till I was almost thirty.  But now we produce 50% more power than we use. Grow most of our own vegetables. The world wants us to succeed, I'm living proof. I'm just bungling along like everyone else.  This is not that hard.  Its such a small shift in perception and attitude and the whole world changes, everything shifts around you.

Thank god they are getting smaller in number by the week, but you still hear, "whats the payback period on that, bet its over 20 years". "Oh you have your own garden, doing that $50 a tomatoe thing?"  If I had showed up in a Hummer, nobody would ask, hey whats the payback on that?  Hey cool, can I go for a ride?  Prius drivers are so passive agressive.

Is Fukushima going to take out the northern hemisphere, will Syria be our Sarajevo, Bosnia leading to WWIII, who knows. But with every little possitive action, even something as small bying a local apple, sewing your own shirt, a smile and a hello, rather pushing ahead, we are one step closer to transforming the world.  So little goes such a long way.

 

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Energy return from fracking.

This research claims an average ratio of 85 to 1 return of energy.http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Bad-News-for-the-Anti-Fracking-Crowd.html Can someone give a link to the research that says more energy is put in than comes out. It would seem crazy for anyone to drill a well with that problem. It would be a money loser and never raise the funds to drill. Excuse my ignorance on this since I am only just beginning to research this since the EPA convinced me that there was not a large problem. Of course the money being made would tend to influence policy, also cheap nat gas and electricity are bringing industry back to this country. 

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Who can give us the "news".

Hugh K, this response is for you but also for those who may have the same thoughts you expressed in your comments.  

First my curriculum vite:  Behind the Irish-Welsh surname I am half Polish.  Both of my mother’s parents came from Poland.  My mother, ever the radical, married an Irishman.  On her side of the family my cousins all spoke Polish at home and went to Polish elementary school.  We grew up Polish, Slavic, Catholic and very proud of those identities.  Russia and particularly the Soviet Union were not our friends.  We had cousins caught in the insanity of the Iron Curtain and the gulag. My grandparents had fled from a Poland dominated by the Russian empire.  My grandfather hated Roosevelt and Churchill because he believed they handed Poland to the communists at the Yalta conference. One of the greatest regrets in my life is that he did not live long enough to see Solidarity, John Paul II becoming pope, and the eventual release of Poland from its communist and soviet stranglehold.

I learned the Russian language in college.  I studied as much Russian history and culture as I could within the curriculum of a Modern European history major.  I continue to follow events in Poland and Russia to this day.  I have no illusions as to whom and what Putin is.  The stupidity of the western governments in dealing with him infuriates me.  They treat him as some sort of rebellious teenager who will someday mature to a proper and reserved place in society.  They refuse to acknowledge that the man represents a renewed threat to the west.  Instead of communist ideology, he is relying on Russian nationalism to call Russia, and all Slavic people, to a renewed position of power.  His objectives are to bring Europe into submission and to break what he sees as American hegemony.  He believes that only by doing these two things will he bring the Russian homeland to its rightful and secure place in the world.  The frightening thing is, that while there is an active and presently suffering dissent in Russia, many Russians, remembering their grandparents suffering in World War II and feeling humiliated by the fall of communism and the economic horror show that followed, are very much in favor of what Putin is attempting.

Getting to my ultimate point, it horrifies and humiliates me to know that I must depend upon RT to get news that the main stream media in this country refuses to put on the air waves.  I constantly complain to my wife, as I troll the web looking for news, that I must now depend on the God forsaken Russians and their propaganda mouthpiece, RT, to get accurate information about the economy and the world.  To me this is one of the greatest barometers of how far we have fallen.  The interview of Chris by Max Keiser will never be played on main stream media in this country.  Even though the information contained in the piece is crucial to Americans, the only place to hear it is on the web, or on RT.

The past couple of days I have been watching the coverage of the progression to war in Syria. Not one main stream media channel is taking a negative position.  They all appear to be cheer leaders trying to excite the American people about the prospects of making a “moral” statement against the use of chemical weapons.  Of course our “statement” will require more dead bodies and ruined infrastructure in Syria, without ending the present carnage.

Hugh K, I understand your concerns about RT. You are correct. They are a mouthpiece of the present Russian oligarchy.  Unfortunately, for those of us searching for truth, their publishing of stories our press will not touch, is often, the only way for us to approach the truth of what is happening in our economy and the world.

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"They will make a difference as to whether we survive or not."

Collectively we are only using one of our brains.

Dr Iain McGilchrist. (Of cause)

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EROEI on Fracking
abhills wrote:

This research claims an average ratio of 85 to 1 return of energy.http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Bad-News-for-the-Anti-Fracking-Crowd.html Can someone give a link to the research that says more energy is put in than comes out. It would seem crazy for anyone to drill a well with that problem. It would be a money loser and never raise the funds to drill. Excuse my ignorance on this since I am only just beginning to research this since the EPA convinced me that there was not a large problem. Of course the money being made would tend to influence policy, also cheap nat gas and electricity are bringing industry back to this country. 

There's not a lot of great research on the EROEI on fracking.  In fact, the only that I've seen is from Charlie Hall's graduate students, and it uses the money spent as a proxy for joules used.

Not great, but better than nothing.

Their results are an average EROEI for the Bakken play at around 12:1.

For NG plays, the EROEI might be as high as 20:1

But this is for the sweet spots...as we drill into the parts of the play that might have just half the EUR per well, then you might reasonably cut those numbers in half.

However, I am not really that trusting of the results, because money can be a very poor proxy for energy, but I suspect we could guess that their results are roughly correct.....

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Not too concerned about RT

Sure they may have their motives, but at least we know where they're coming from and can adjust our BS filter if necessary.  

If Russia Today, called itself "The Federal News", then I'd really be cautious due to the attempt to deceive.

It's the American "press" that is more likely to hide their motives, IMO.

SS

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excellent interview

I really enjoyed it.

Something to think about while I am canning grape juice today.

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I agree, JT
jtwalsh wrote:

Hugh K, I understand your concerns about RT. You are correct. They are a mouthpiece of the present Russian oligarchy.  Unfortunately, for those of us searching for truth, their publishing of stories our press will not touch, is often, the only way for us to approach the truth of what is happening in our economy and the world.

JT,

Thanks for your reply.  I agree with you that Russia Today can share some great ideas that our mainstream media won't touch.  I also appreciate your deep experience with Russian and Polish language, culture and history, so it's clear that you're aware of the man behind the curtain at RT, and I trust that other PP members are as well. 

There are a lot of reader-supported grass roots sources of information that give alternative viewpoints to our MSM.  Just by subscribing to PP, we give a significant amount of support and funding to Chris' efforts to share these ideas, all from individual users.  Democracy Now also gets a lot of its funding from grassroots contributions.  If one wants an alternative opinion on the gold markets, you can get one at ZeroHedge, or KWN, on Eric Sprott and Bill Haynes' dime.  For energy, there's Our Finite World, The Oil Drum (still archived), ASPO International (www.peakoil.net), as well as plenty of articles and YouTube videos of Charles Hall, Kjell Aleklett, and Colin Campbell.  

All without a guy like Max Keiser throwing bones to the Kremlin, such as "the British are subjects, not citizens," zinger found in the above interview.  I agree that our civil liberties in the U.S. and U.K. are being eroded, but somehow that concern rings hollow when aired by someone whose checks are signed by Vladimir Putin.

In the end, I think I would rather see/hear Chris here at PP, which I do my part to support, or on DemocracyNow or even Two Beers with Steve, than on Russia Today.

Wendy, I can imagine you canning grape juice in the late South Carolina summer and pondering the interview.  It's probably a lot hotter there than it is here in Leysin (Switzerland), where the night time temps are already in the low 40's.  I wonder if the grapes are ones that you cultivated, and I'm imagining that they are.  The concerns I have about RT did not prevent me from enjoying what Chris said in the interview, which I watched while doing some dishes, while my wife was out watering the plants.  I really appreciate your practical and down-to-earth posts, and if/when my posts are more critical, I hope it doesn't bring you or other people down.  

My sense is that people really appreciate the alternative point of view that Chris was able to air on the Keiser Report, and it seems like a lot of people here are very happy to see the broader coverage, as am I.  I just wonder if there's a way to do that via community-supported media outlets.

Cheers,

Hugh

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Follow up on last nights comments

Hugh K.  I am glad you took my post in good spirits.  When I got up this morning and re-read it I made a promise to myself to never again post after mid-night.  I get way too emotional.

I am familiar with most of the sites you listed.  Zero Hedge is one of my favorites, which I follow every day.  I have checked in on Democracy Now in the past but for some reason it did not click with me.  Based on your recommendation I will go back and spend some time there to see what they are about.

Another said commentary about the present is that it seems the Russian government is pumping money into RT, just as we did (still do?) with Radio Free America.  It gives them an advantage by not having to fund raise like most other sites.

The most important tool we have today is the freedom to connect and speak with each other over the internet.  To a degree never before possible, his medium allows people who would otherwise never know the other existed, to share ideas and to have discussion on all types of topics.

Thanks for the input.

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perspective on Russia

For perspective on Russia, I recommend Dmitry Orlov, as he is a Russian native who frequently visits and comments on the country's progress.  I don't make any comment on his perspective, except to note that it is an informed one and probably unique for most of us.

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/

Doug

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Democracy Now and Aleklett's Oil Mix

JT,

There are some aspects of Democracy Now's style that put some people off, but I like it pretty well.  DN picked up Juan Gonzalez after he was fired from NPR; I forget the reason for that now.  Amy Goodman, the long time anchor, is a very good journalist, in my opinion.  DN was doing stories on Laura Poitras way before her name came to be featured by the NYT and other mainstream media, and DN is generally very good in terms of cataloguing the overreach of executive power in the U.S.  They are also very good regarding environmental reporting.  DN is pretty weak in terms of reporting on the economy, except regarding inequality of wealth issues.

I just read a brief but helpful challenge by Kjell Aleklett, the Swedish expert on peak oil, to the recent Economist article on oil titled Yesterday's Fuel .  

Doug, thanks for the link to Orlov's blog.  I first learned of him a few months ago here on PP and I will try to check out his writing from time to time.

Cheers,

Hugh

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Max Keiser on fracking

So if the energy return is 20 to 1 that is not more energy going  in than comes out by any means. Does this mean that Max does not check his facts very well before speaking? If so can we trust what he says whilst calling people stupid?

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Hugh, I appreciated your thoughts here. Checks...

...and balances. Whenever a new source is left for us to read I will look up the source first to see if I can gather a political advantage or some slant to the organization first so that when I do read the information it is easier for me to either take the source seriously or be very weary of what is being propagandized.

For instance, I never heard of the Syrian Freepress so I looked it up before reading what a poster had left for our consumption: Like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Free_Press.

I gleen so much from when the organization first started up, why, who, what, where, when and how. The real fundamentals of getting the overall view of the news. From their I allow the words and my gut to tell me what the deal is. I know this, nothing is Black and White. That Syria nor the US are exactly telling us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Yet many here in our community have already tried and determined that the CIA, Obama, Graham, McCain and a slew of other shadowy figures are responsible for the attack on the innocent. That may very well be the case and if so then what the heck can we do about it anyways as these same folks will tell me it is the Elites who control every decision. I have asked who are the Elites. Elites imply to me that a group of folks make all the decisions for the group. Yet we have opposing forces at work in Syria, the government and the rebels. Are the Elites in control of both? That is what is implied. Makes no sense and the term "Elites" has no real value to me as it just is a word thrown about haphazardly with no real visuals to wrap your head around. At least this knuckleheads, head around. 

My take, way above my pay grade so I will just go about my business of my conscious, and hope that I live the way of a righteous Man with good values and strong character and respect for all peoples. Thing is, I know I will fail in this even if I do strive to be what I pen because the game whether it be in the streets or the halls of the Elites mandates that to survive you better understand what it is you are willing to do to survive.

Who and what are the Elites and are there many factions of the Elites and do they oppose one another, and, and, and? So Elites are just Governments then who take their orders from the Elites and who are they exactly? If you don't know and can't define their outreach or effect then how do you know what the heck you are talking about? I say the word Elite is all fluff and bluster for "I just don't know".

Do the Elite have someone they answer too? You know like Elitestesisted!? ;-)

OT: A truly great finish to a great summer. Friends, singing, dancing and bonfire. The wine was great, the Crown and Sprite was great, the funny stuff and the subsequent contact buzz an unexpected treat. Be safe folks. 

Thanks again Hugh for the detail that went into your thread.

BOB

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No fact-free accusations, please.
yogiismyhero wrote:

(...)

That Syria nor the US are exactly telling us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Yet many here in our community have already tried and determined that the CIA, Obama, Graham, McCain and a slew of other shadowy figures are responsible for the attack on the innocent. 

Bob,

Please don't become careless in your accusations again.  That hasn't worked out too well in the past.

You now need to back up that statement in bold with links to particular quotes made by members here, or you need to retract it.

The more we can stick to the facts around here, the better.

+++++++++++++

For myself, I do not trust anything coming from the U.S. war-machine "intelligence" apparatus, as they have been caught flat-out lying and manufacturing "evidence" in the past to support a U.S. push for a war of aggression.  

Trust, once broken, is very hard to rebuild.  

I believe many others have echoed that same sentiment, which is very different from accusing certain parties of being responsible.

As it stands, I have seen exactly zero pieces of hard, credible evidence to support who unleashed the nerve gas.  We do not know, and at this stage we'll probably never know.

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Lies and Betrayal

Thanks Chris for stepping in here and responding to Bob's post #17. On another thread, I mentioned McCain and Graham as examples of those who advocate greater military involvement in Syria. I recall Bob reacting to my mention of them in a subsequent post on that thread. So I felt pretty sure my post was one of those he was referring to. I never said I thought they were responsible for the sarin attack. So I noticed I had a reaction when I saw their names mentioned in his post as though I had. In the interest of clear, clean communication, I appreciate you bringing this up for us all to be aware of in our comments to one another. It's a good reminder to us all to take responsibility for our words.

Bob, I believe you are mistaken. You might want to go back and re-read my post. There are many here and around the world who felt misled by the lies that resulted in the war in Iraq and all the death and destruction that followed. My question is: do we really want a repeat of that? This has nothing to do with where you are on the political spectrum. It has to do with betrayal and disrespect for the American public by those in power. After Iraq and many other instances of duplicity, I no longer believe what I'm being told by our government. I've learned to my sorrow that we are capable of horrible things and then lying about it. So, it didn't seem like too much of a stretch to wonder if we were using a false flag event (again) to precipate war against Syria. Yes, I question the motives of those pulling the strings because of past behavior. The greatest predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

As for who the elites are - I think you know who that is. It is those who are in positions of power and influence (inside and outside government) who pursue their own agenda at the expense of everyone else and the planet. I'm sure I could come up with other definitions as well. They answer to no one but themselves.

You sure you weren't still feeling a contact buzz when you posted? smiley

Glad you had a good summer.

Joyce

 

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oops

Precipitate - where is spell check when you need it?!

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Ok, retracted...

Trust Chris is a personal, gut feeling, and you trust yours as I do mine. Here's my gut and what it's telling me: The slant on many opinions are anti-American and, are written and understood by me to be less than stellar work. It amazes me that Syria and Assads regime is worthy of any benefits of the doubt. Now, whether Assad is responsible of this act or not I cannot say but he is killing his own citizens, has brutalized his own citizens and as of yet I have read nothing that has changed my worlds opinion on that save Russia or possibly China. I also said that all these Folks play in a different sandbox than we do and I don't know the rules in that world but if these powerful people want Assad gone he is gone. That simple. Gas or no gas. Just my opinion so why do I have to back up my opinion? 

Personally, and I have said this many times I bleed Red, White and Blue and my standards perhaps are more realistic in that NO government anywhere are perfect, they do make mistakes in judgement, and I see this within our country daily but I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. It has always been this struggle in the US and if TRUST is the absolute for you or anyone else then to what degrees are you talking about? Look, I will forsake any person here if it comes down to you or me and whose family survives. I do have rules though, and there ever changing depending on the situation and what is felt at the time. Like giving a kid half my sandwich if I seen him hungry instead of eating the whole sandwich myself and walking by.

Chris, if this is unsatisfactory then censor all threads. As for past misdeeds, I still are not aware of what they were. Just an opinion, stated personally in the Private Message section and I never thought these words were inappropriate coming from this section of the site. I have had one, just one person here where I couldn't work things out with. To all others I have been respectful. If you want me to tow the line, think as the group thinks, and sing allowed all your virtues then just send me a refund check and kick me off the site because I am not walking in cadence with anyone.

With the comment about McCain and Graham, I read this in the contexts that with the CIA that they were possibly promoting this war and I just don't agree. If you or anyone else does then fine. I also said, no matter what we can't change a thing so what is the point of any of these discussions. Venting? OK, I vented, you vented, everyone who has commented has vented. Now what? Can we change anything? Nope.

This is your site Chris, you have the right to kick me off and while that will be a disappointment I certainly will not lose any sleep over your decision. I'll still have Gregor, Charles, Mish, Hussman, Pettis and a host of other sites that represent very well what is happening in the world today. I prefer to be here but it isn't my choice, it is yours. I know this though, I have had many private messages that have read into things as I have, unsolicited but don't want to be controversial. I don't even know I am being controversial, I don't. I am just offering up my opinion and I know I am right until I'm not. So I can live with this. I have always said I am way behind the curve here, and have lots of catch up to do so if you're not a patient person then get rid of me Chris. I won't think any less of you and fact is I have never thought of you as less.

Chris, you want things in BOLD, I have no clue how to do that. You want stuff in that rather cute Blue Box Format: No can do either. I haven't gotten around to learning that stuff yet. It seems many don't have that ability. I will however learn how to do that this week though now that it is required.  

BOB

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yogiismyhero
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Joined: Jun 28 2013
Posts: 173
Jdye51 said this:...

"There are so many different factions involved in this quagmire we may never know conclusively who did it. One of our own intelligence agencies, or an ally's, could have provided a rebel group with the gas in order to precipate our military involvement. There are those like McCain and Graham who have been calling for war. (I'm not saying they did it just that there are many games in play.)"

I responded by saying that maybe just maybe Assad is guilty.

Joyce clearly are intimating to me that her mind is made up and perhaps it isn't. I just think its a stretch from here to there until the evidense is conclusive. I also said Obama would stand down until he knew, and as of now he has. So, a voice of reason then? I do think I am but anyone who wishes to believe that the mistake of the Bush administrations is also that of the Obama administration has their own personal biases. I chose to express mine so where again did I go wrong with my thinking?

The military complex is to make war and defend our interests and that is their game and I stand down from here because I do not and no one here has all the information that causes the decision makers to do what it is they do in this arena (sand box). Whoever thinks they have this figured out is just wrong. Besides, what can we do about it anyways. Nothing, not a darn thing but vent.

Folks, you don't know me, you haven't a clue and never will. So sorry if this bothers you. If you want to analyize everything I say, and look for any flaws in my logic then I'll tell you now that I don't care, you don't care, you just need to vent and this site provides you your happy place. Me, I come here to learn and sometimes what I read I do not agree with. So sorry.

BOB

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ferralhen
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Posts: 151
yogi you are ok in my book.

yogi

you are ok in my book. i'm a fan and a fellow michigander... things in the world are heating up, and that sometimes makes all of us heat up...

let all of this blow by for the night.ok? and for that matter blow by period. bombs are not falling on any of us for now, so life is good.

i worked hard today, mowed 7 acres, composted a fair amount, walked 4 miles with a neighbor, you probably did alot too, chris probably didalot  too.

we don't have time to fence with each other.

peace   pax shalom.

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yogiismyhero
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Posts: 173
Agreed and the issue is dead after I re-print this...

I wrote this to Mark:

 

Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Jun 28 2013
Posts: 172
 
 
 
"Mark, I am not in conflict at all and agree with yours...

...and many here's point of view. However, and not being cute here, Assad plays in a different sandbox than you and I. He's going out, whether we approve or not. I have no moral outrage as to what happens here, in a war zone that have a different set of rules. Assad is guilty he just hasn't been caught with his hand in the cookie jar. So for the greater good he is the sacrificial lamb then, so the rest of the world understands there are rules to engagement, someone got cute and Assad pays. No big deal. 

I am interested in the line of thinking that always places the United States in a bad light when what we do is represent better the way the game is played all around the world. Because we are the top dogs doesn't mean we are bad just that we play in 'that' sandbox better than the rest. I try and separate myself from that to my personal life and what I am willing to do. It's all I can do quite honestly, as to even talk about this doesn't even register as a complaint in the governments around the world so I go about my business.

I break things down real simple. Al Capone, what a sweetheart, his Mom and priest said so. He got his just do even if it was for tax evasion and not murder. We don't miss him do we?

This whole conversation is beyond our pay grade but if it helps to talk and express our outrage then I am pissed too about all things that effect another human being unjustly treated. I just hope this doesn't break down into yet another conversation about how we can only support 1 billion people and we have 7 billion on the planet and these numbers must be reduced in the not too distant future. How?, and someone, many someone's will actually give examples and it mustn't include them! 

If only I was God, boy would I have done things way differently. My first order of business would be to make one change and then take the rest of the day off and the next 6 days. UTOPIA for all, plant life and animals included.

Mark, I will ask a very serious question and don't answer just be honest: Does a world without Assad look better? My answer is YES and a resounding YES, and let him join his Daddy as he deserved a fate worse than he ever received too. I don't miss his Daddy either. I won't miss Assad but his Mom will whale and his spiritual leader will make him a saint and his people will love him or hate him. Just the way it is.

Mark, I hope I wasn't being a spokesmen for morality because I fall well short as I play the game too down here on the street level. I wish a lot of things that are right and righteous but then someone always comes along and wants to change my peace of mind, what a drag are always my thoughts. If only....

For the record though this smacks of deception, smoke and mirrors for something else. I sense a very serious event, maybe a market crash and a reason for it, and God help us if this doesn't bring one or more of the Super Powers together for a little song and dance. We'' see but this is not the main event. Guaranteed.

OK, time to go water my flowers, take my dog with me and enjoy that which I have control of as I now need some alone time.

BOB"

Some said to "wake the f*** up" (Logan's Run) and was allowed to sit, Jdye51 said very colorfully her strange analysis (provided in this thread), and others said maybe, could be, it's possible, perhaps, or some such thing. They used "CIA", "McCain"," Graham", "Obama" "chemical wapons". 

No one that I am aware of but me have asked the question, "what if Assad is guilty?". It's his country and he has these chemical weapons, and has the means, and, and, and. Maybe, just maybe he did it. Has that even crossed anyones mind but mine? If not then talk about "confirmation bias"!. Sheesh. Especially when Chris himself has said that we may never know who done it. 

Chris says that we may never know the truth but appears to blame the US military and NO ONE else as a possibility, and I can think of China, Russia, Iran, Iraq, and a host of entities that would just love to have the world point their little fingers at us.

Burn me once (WMD) shame on me burn me twice shame on you or some such thing. Trust!, is a word that should only be used between a husband and wife, and for all others it is a word that will never truly fullflll its destiny as no one is entirely trustworthy. 

Yogi

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jdye51
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 17 2011
Posts: 157
Many voices allowed

Bob -  just thought you interpreted what I said as pointing a finger at McCain etc. when I wasn't as I don't know and I don't think anyone knows at this point who did it. It could have been any number of the players including al-Assad. I'm saying that I wouldn't  put it past our own government or the government of an ally (Saudi Arabia?) to have provided the sarin based on past behavior. I'm not the only one to speculate about this. My mind isn't made up but I am expressing some doubt as to the truth here. Why? Because we've been lied to so consistently.

It's clear you still have a more positive view of the American government. That's your perogative. I just disagree is all. Too many instances of deception. Just what is it you are loyal to anyway?  The old red, white and blue? Is it the vision of America we grew up with? Sadly I think it was a false view now that more information is available on things like our involvement in the overthrow of legitimate governments we didn't like or that didn't suit our needs. Growing up, I saw the US as the guys with the white hats. Turns out, that wasn't really true. If you take a good look, you'll see that we aren't even a democracy but an oligarchy.

The news I am reading says Obama is "consulting" Congress but will decide on his own no matter what they say. Is that right? Do the people of this country not have a say in whether or not we go to war? Obama invited McCain and Graham to the White House because they agree with his position. Now McCain is saying if we don't do what Obama wants it will be "catastrophic".

My intent is not to attack you but to explain my position and views. So no need to be defensive. We all have a voice here and are free to express it. I value what you have to say. To me, this site is about being awake and aware and not naively believing everything we're told. Remember Eisenhower's warning in his last speech as President about the military-industrial complex. War is a business that some people make money off of. It also makes for a distraction when our economy is about to collapse. Those in positions of power are flawed human beings just like we are. I refuse to blindly accept what they say when there is evidence of wrong doing. We must think for ourselves and not just assume they know what they are doing. At least that's my opinion.

And if you don't agree, that's just fine. As ferralhen says, peace.

Joyce

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westcoastjan
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jdye51's picture
jdye51
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Joined: Feb 17 2011
Posts: 157
Good find Jan

Thanks for the link to a very interesting analysis. Always good to see who is behind the curtain.

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