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    Crisis Of Legitimacy In Our Institutions

    by Chris Martenson

    Thursday, September 30, 2021, 4:28 PM

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Peter Boghossian, one of the great cultural iconoclasts of our time, is a former Professor of Philosophy at Portland State University and the renowned author of best selling books A Manual for Creating Atheists (with James Lindsay), as well as How to Have Impossible Conversations: A Very Practical Guide. 

Boghossian is more well known in recent days, however, for his now world-famous resignation letter penned to the Provost of Portland State University, Susan Jeffords, wherein he eloquently articulated the inherent danger of the institution’s ongoing support of the “Woke” ethos which favors supporting moral ideology and idealism at the expense of some of the major tenets of the traditional university experience; including the free flow of ideas and concepts (including those which may make us uncomfortable) in the pursuit of truth and greater understanding. In his letter, Boghossian writes:

“Students at Portland State are not being taught to think. Rather, they are being trained to mimic the moral certainty of ideologues. Faculty and administrators have abdicated the university’s truth-seeking mission and instead drive intolerance of divergent beliefs and opinions. This has created a culture of offense where students are now afraid to speak openly and honestly.” 
Martenson and Boghossian have a memorable conversation not only tackling Boghossian’s rejection of the new university ethos he personally experienced, but the larger implications of such a movement in our society as a whole.

 

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87 Comments

  • Thu, Sep 30, 2021 - 8:36pm

    #1
    Canuck21

    Canuck21

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    Interesting discussion

    I liked Peter's last statement so much, here it is in writing: "We are people who value cognitive liberty, forthright speech and honesty in our communications."

    I wonder for how many decades this wokeism creep (creep as a verb) has been going on for. I see many of the health spokespeople - not physicians but bureaucrats - many women though I don't believe this is gender related - who must be at least in their early 40s -- but when they are answering fairly innocuous questions from the press they look irritated and frustrated, like they cannot understand what questioning is, what opposition is, what being asked to justify their position is -- like these are all illegitimate. That the press should just write down what they have been told and trot off and write a nice article. So if these bureaucrats are in their early to mid-40s, they would have graduated from university 20+ years ago. So was there already wokeism in Western universities say, 25 years ago? If so now I understand that these people do not have the cognitive ability to deal with dissent. It will really stress them out. It's like they have been taught to think in only two dimensions and now their brains are being asked to stretch into three or more dimensions. Which means they cannot be reasoned with. This is not promising...

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  • Thu, Sep 30, 2021 - 8:45pm

    #2
    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

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    WokePedia

    That's my new name for that horrid site.  Wokepedia.  LOL.  I just made myself laugh.

    Even one of the original cofounders sees it that way (using slightly different terms):

    Wikipedia Co-Founder Criticizes Site, Says It Has Slid Into ‘Leftist Propaganda’

    By Isabel van Brugen September 29, 2021

    Wikipedia has in recent years drifted away from neutrality and slid into “leftist propaganda,” according to its co-founder Larry Sanger.

    Sanger, who parted ways with Wikipedia almost two decades ago over the project’s direction, told EpochTV’s “American Thought Leaders” that the online encyclopedia, which turned 20 years old earlier this year, has gradually shifted to follow the narrative of “the news media.”

    “Wikipedia made a real effort at neutrality for, I would say, its first five years or so,” said Sanger. “And then … it began a long, slow slide into what I would call leftist propaganda.”

    Wikipedia has around 125,000 active volunteer editors who work on crowdsourced articles, and more than 1,000 “administrators” who can take actions such as blocking accounts or restricting edits on certain pages.

    Sanger told EpochTV that particularly in the past five years, any individual who is “on the right,” or “even contrarian,” often finds themselves with an article on Wikipedia that “grossly misrepresents their achievements, often just leaves out important bits of their work, and misrepresents their motives.”

    Wikipedia “casts them as conspiracy theorists, are far right or whatever, when they and their friends and people who know them well would never describe them in that way,” Sanger said.

    Sanger criticized Wikipedia, suggesting that it has recently moved to “follow the news media.”

    “More recently, they’ve gotten rid of almost all conservative news sources as sources for their articles,” he explained. “And so as the news media has shifted, and as the establishment, frankly, has shifted more to the left or to the left, the content of Wikipedia has followed suit.”

    As a "contrarian" I found myself with a deleted WokePedia page after just two weeks of running against the MSM grain on Covid back in early Feb 2020.

    It's now a completely useless source for any information about individuals because their bios are entirely filtered through the "dems are good, repubs are bad" filter set.

    Worse, any historical event, such as the Skripal poisoning are simply horrid propaganda pieces as if written directly by the MI6 or CIA themsleves.  Perhaps they are.

    And don't even get me started on the corporate green and white-washing that happens there.  It's disgusting.

    At any rate, the woke ideology ruing that platform for me.  Made it better for some I presume, because now it's a safe space where people who are woke can be free of being challenged in any way.

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  • Thu, Sep 30, 2021 - 9:12pm

    #3
    derek1ee

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    derek1ee said:

    I liked it a lot. Started late on the premiere so set the video to 1.5x to try to "catch up" but quickly dialed it back to 1x because you need time to digest and absorb great conversation like this.

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  • Thu, Sep 30, 2021 - 10:01pm

    #4
    Earthiest

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    Earthiest said:

    "So much to unpack" is what my husband said after we finished this interview. We nodded along to most of it, laughed several times, and raised our eyebrows once or twice ... basically, the equation for a really thought provoking interview.

    I found myself on the mean end of "wokeism" this past winter when I questioned aspects of a workers rights bill focused on Agriculture in Colorado. Basically, the bill demonized farm owners instead of acknowledging the systemic issues at play. There was such an opportunity to bring farm owners and workers together to tackle the issues, but instead, the bill proponents created a huge divide in Colorado, that we may never repair. For asking questions, or pointing out holes in their arguments, I was publicly called a racist and systemic oppressor ... it was emotionally brutal and also very eye opening.

    A few days ago, a friend was relaying a story about a co-worker of hers ... who is black. He has an old car that backfires when he turns it off. He got pulled over (I don't remember why) and he described going through his "check-list" ... car in park, hands on the steering wheel, etc. The officer asked him to turn off the car and exit the vehicle. He said, "sir, you really don't want me to turn off the car." The officer, now annoyed,  "get out of the car" to which the man said, "ok, the car will backfire." He turned the car off and as it backfired he threw himself onto the pavement with his arms to the side ... looking up to see guns drawn on him. He didn't get shot and laughed as he told the story to his co-workers a couple days later.

    Yes, that is lived experience and to be honest, I can't say how common that is. But, I do know, that as a white woman, I've never felt like my life was in danger when I got pulled over. My sister is autistic and often wears headphones and dances when outside of the house. I've never worried about her getting in trouble, or killed  ... unlike Elijah McClain who lived an hour away from her.

    So, as was pointed out in the interview, there are real issues at play and we need to solve them. We also need to be able to have tough conversations, identify what we do and don't know, and WORK TOGETHER (the divisiveness in wokeism is what drives me bonkers) to tackle the SYSTEMIC issues at play (like the Federal Reserve) instead of pitting people against one another.

    Thanks again Chris for another great, thought provoking interview.

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  • Thu, Sep 30, 2021 - 10:56pm

    #5

    Arthur Robey

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    Hmmm. Let's test you out.

    I put it to you that the bludgeon of anti-German propaganda that we've subjected ourselves to for the last 90 years has rebounded upon our own heads.

    Who can watch the following video without breaking out in spots?




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  • Thu, Sep 30, 2021 - 11:57pm

    #6

    Arthur Robey

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    ""Equality" I breathed the word, as if a wedding vow"

    Bob Dylan. "My back pages."

    So Penelope, our 23 year old downs person, must be tossed out on the street like any other  23 year old woman? Because "equality"?

    Now I am confused.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 12:15am

    #7
    Mpup

    Mpup

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    The question

    The answer:  Love

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 12:22am

    #8
    Mike Anderson

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    Peter would make a good neighbor

    I’ve listened to Peter Boghossian since at least 2018, and I like the guy, at least from what little I can tell in interviews. He and I are much closer in our style of reasoning than those who lean on a direct “lived experience," or who defer to group knowledge and their spokespeople, or tradition, emotion, and especially the need to protect an ego built on (or is sensitive to) relative performance instead of integrity. I say this as someone who would probably be classified as a conservative Christian, though others of that description might not recognize me.

    If he were my neighbor, I’d invite him to consider the evidence for my position, but I wouldn’t have high hopes of planting seeds of change with even someone so curious and capable. It’s never clearly happened with me before, and I don’t need to make it happen to fulfill some supposed religious obligation. So there’s no agenda to hide.

    I think Boghossian is the same. Yes he has strong views, but he doesn’t hide them nor build his ego around them. He is willing to be humbled by better information using reasonable epistemology, at least to a point. In the end, reality is too vast for us limited creatures to accurately map, so we all fall back to heuristics and biases of one sort or another. We’re all somewhat wrong, but the virtue is in growing.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 1:59am

    #9
    HillBicks

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    HillBicks said:

    Like all "ism"s, wokeism seems more akin to religion than a rational line of thinking. Questioning the official narrative is forbidden and countered by emotional ferocity; facts are met with revulsion when they contradict the official narrative; ostracization is required for the heretics. The Catholic Church has been replaced by the cult of the woke, and the number of modern day Galileos is larger than we realize.

    I wonder whether this is the natural order of things....whether humans gravitate towards "religion" in various forms (as has been the case for millennia). If we didn't worship wokeism we'd instead be dominated by Catholicism, Paganism, Nationalism, Judaism, Islam, or be forced to worship the Sun God. If Wokeism falls by the wayside then perhaps something equally insidious will take its place.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 2:40am

    Spork

    Spork

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    Matt Taibbi has a similar take just now....

    The News is America's New Religion, and We're in a Religious War
    https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-news-is-americas-new-religion-e6e

    News in America used to be fun to talk about, fun to joke about, interesting to think about. Now it’s an interminable bummer, because the press business has taken on characteristics of that other institution where talking, joking, and thinking aren’t allowed: church. We have two denominations, both as fact-averse as real churches, as is shown in polls about, say, pandemic attitudes, where Americans across the board consistently show they know less than they think.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 3:22am

    #11

    Mark_BC

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    Mark_BC said:

    OK... to bring up an age old topic mentioned in the interview that seems to have divided people as much as anything ever has... the origins of life.

    Decades ago I was an enthusiastic undergraduate "scientist" at the time fully committed to the philosophy of atheism. I had taken tons of biology courses including all the 3rd year pre-med biochemistry, genetics etc., although I didn't end up pursuing medicine beyond that.

    I decided to finally pull together the evidence to once and for all formulate the proof to show those ridiculous creationists how they have no logical basis for their beliefs. Demonstrate exactly the genetic mechanism by which evolution can occur based off of random mutation, to progress a species to new and more complex forms (as if I was the first person to try to do that LOL). I was partly driven to satisfy myself since I always quest better understanding of things. I took organic chemistry and actually really liked it so I wanted to take that to the next level and understand the chemical mechanism by which a new protein could be coded, seemingly out of nothing.

    I presumed this knowledge must be out there and that I had just not been exposed to it in my many undergraduate biology courses.
    So off I went and searched out the science. I didn't devote my entire existence to it at the time or anything, but I spent maybe a year perusing journals and reading some prominent authors on the subject. I was expecting this evidence to be clear, ubiquitous, and obvious. But what I quickly found was the opposite and I came up empty. What I found was four lines of evidence: 1) on the macroscopic scale, we have genotypic / phenotypic mathematical models describing new genes emerging into a population and establishing themselves -- you know, all the p and q statistics, yadda yadda yadda.

    They all make sense and are observable in populations but they say nothing about the biochemical mechanisms by which new genes and traits emerge. It's merely descriptive, which is fine. This can be understood as the Darwinian model of biological evolution via natural selection going back hundreds of years.

    And 2) on the other end, we have the microscopic or biochemical scale; the more modern knowledge we have gained from technology that allows us to pull apart and understand the nuts and bolts of DNA and genetics and biochemistry describing how organisms function in real time at a biomolecular level. It is a reductionist approach which models biological entities as machines -- very complex machines whose nuts and bolts go all the way down to individual atoms and molecules. What I found was that this knowledge doesn't describe or provide models of how new genes emerge from mutation, how organisms change; it merely postulates how organisms function using a deterministic machine model. It describes how a car works, but it says nothing of how engineers design a new model of car.

    And of course, on a third level, bringing in the 4th dimension of time, we have a very robust fossil record showing the progress of complex life over the last billion years.

    And on the 4th level, we have all the genomic analysis of the remaining extant life forms clearly showing their lineages and relationships which aligns very well with the fossil record.

    All of these lines of evidence stand up well and describe their respective subjects l but it quickly became apparent that something was glaringly missing, which is an actual biochemical "mechanical" mechanism linking them together. It's like people can talk all about these individually but then bringing them together requires some magic hand waving and Voila! Look what science did! Well, hand waving isn't science.

    I couldn't find anything, which I was very shocked by. I was expecting this to be prominent in the journals and texts, and well understood, since all the atheist scientists seemed very secure in their beliefs. But I found (almost) nothing. There was one line of research into the genetic mechanics of the emergence of a new nylon-eating strain of bacteria.

    I pondered this for a while, and was finally forced to question what I had previously believed. The problem is this -- the math doesn't add up. Never mind the lack of clear chemical models and real life examples. So I started some math. I wanted to estimate the chances that a random mutation can create a new useful trait in a complex organism. I wasn't interested in evidence THAT it occurs since we all know it happens all the time all around us. I wanted the math behind HOW it happens.

    How many base pairs are in a typical gene? Let's be conservative and say 10,000 including all the other introns, exons, junk DNA etc. (forgive me if my genetics is a little rusty, it's been a while).

    What is the required "perfection" in that sequence needed to code for a functional protein? I don't know, maybe 98%?
    How "unique" must the new protein be? As in, coding for a different wavelength of reflected irridescence in a butterfly's wing -- can this be done by slightly tweaking an existing protein? Not really. It generally must a be a unique new protein to further advance the complexity of a species given how specifically proteins must fold themselves when being built.

    What are the typical mutations that we are told cause new beneficial traits to spontaneously arise out of existing genetic material?

    Deletions, substitutions, translocations etc.. These are "primitive" processes.

    What are the chances that one of these mutations would be detrimental to the organism?

    What are the chances that one of these "primitive" mutations could create a new functional and beneficial protein? Based on the necessary "irreducible complexity" needed to create a 98% accurate protein? (anything less than a functioning new protein would be a nothing-burger and be quickly lost in the population -- the gene must be expressed positively phenotyically immediately. It only has one shot)

    What are the mutation rates typically observed?

    Based on a comparison of the necessary amount of mutation needed to create a beneficial new phenotype, as compared with the level of complexity we see arising out of the common genetic mutations mentioned above, how often would that occur? Furthermore, what would happen to the rest of the genome with that rate of mutation before a positive phenotype was created? Would it turn the rest of you into Swiss cheese first? Then how could it be a beneficial mutation if it destroys the rest of your genome first?

    How many individual organisms would be required to reproduce to see these changes? It's one thing to talk about a Coronoavirus that can multiply trillions of times in one infection but how does it work in a population of 10,000 frogs on a mountain?

    I started the math and I didn't get very far before realizing that it's ridiculous. It's beyond impossible. It is astronomically absurd. You'd never see a beneficial mutation once in the history of the universe, yet we see them all around us all the time.

    So I was forced to conclude, as I still do today (maybe some Earth shattering evidence has since come forward that I'm not aware of), that Atheism is not consistent with science. But beyond this, rejecting Atheism as a belief system does not require one to reject any 4 of the lines of evidence I summarized above, since the evidence for each is clear and undeniable. It is about admitting that the theory of evolution is woefully incomplete despite all our amazing technological advances that have allowed us to peep into every corner of genetics. Rejecting Atheism does not mean one must believe that the world is 5000 years old. It does not even require that you believe in the existence of some big guy in the sky who is doing "intelligent design" from some other parallel dimension and shuffling our DNA for us while we are asleep to make new genes for our unborn children, although that may be happening for all I know. Rejecting atheism simply means that I reject the belief, or rather the steadfast assertion based on some imaginary nonexistent evidence, that biological complexity can emerge, directed by nothing more selection pressure, from random genetic mutation -- and most importantly, that biological organisms are just really complicated machines, and nothing more.

    How does biological evolution work then? I don't know. That's the problem I see these days. Everyone has an opinion because they can feel only their one small part of the elephant and formulate their wider beliefs by extrapolating that to the whole. But an analysis of the whole doesn't support that. Furthermore, raising these questions will alienate you from anyone who holds a steadfast rigid view, because it calls into question dogmatic adherence to any belief system on the origins of life.

    I'd like to learn more. I find the stagnation of this topic over the last few decades symptomatic of the same problems discussed in this video. I think that to satisfactorily address this topic would require a level of scientific and cultural openness light years beyond where we are now. We are instead spending our "intellectual" efforts fighting over the most appropriate and least offensive pronoun to address people with. I fear that this issue, as always, will be another one used to further wedge and divide society. It is a stagnation of our philosophical, spiritual, and scientific progress as a species.

    I'd go so far as to say that we hit "Peak Humanity" in the 90's sometime and it's been downhill since then. Our mechanical scientific understanding of genetics has progressed markedly since then, but it has contributed basically nothing to a wider philosophical understanding of what life is. I think quantum mechanics has contributed more to the philosophy of life over that time than biochemistry has.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 3:28am

    Arthur Robey

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    On Faux Values

    The answer:  Love

    Freedom.

    For if you are not free all your other virtues serve to mock your ancestors.

    For the sake of the argument, let us posit a "Satan" who is opposed to the will of the Wr-alda. Would this "Satan" not substitute our true values for false ones?

    Hence anti-racism, meekness,  praising sexual dysphoria, equality and all manner of maladaptive values.

    We are free to choose these and experience the results of these choices. Even Love can be maladaptive when it becomes pathological altruism.

    Off your knees Saxons. You have paid the price in full.

    (You can come out from behind the covers now Gladys; there is no Satan. There is only the foolishness of people who follow the priests.)





     

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 4:14am

    #13

    Arthur Robey

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    The Queens of Woke Bite the Dust

    Hollywood, being all about Form with little Substance, encounters the consequences of it's fantasies.

    Virtue signalling is no substitute for Morals.





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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 4:37am

    Arthur Robey

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    Objective Materialism

    Objective Materialism was a backlash against the over-bearing dictat of the Catholic branch of the Abrahamic sects.

    That it went into overshoot was demonstrated in 1927 in Copenhagen, when it ran slap-bang into the double slit experiment. Nothing we have done has resurrected it. On the contrary, every experiment since then has been another nail in it's coffin.

    Yet the Atheists still cling to it. A triumph of wilful blindness.

    How many dimensions are required to produce the illusion of Reality? Only two. There are not four dimensions nor the 20 posited by string theorists. (Or was it 21? Where is the giggle factor when you need it?)

    This is an amazing and privileged time to be alive. We are living through a Kuhnian Revolution.

    Ref Physics Dr. Tom Campbell.





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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 4:51am

    #15
    David Henry

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    an accurate indictment of contemporary US higher education

    Fantastic interview and dead on, getting to the difficulties of a US education system that in some cases values social justice above reasoned inquiry. I'm a tenured assoc. professor and the indictment that Boghossian serves up strikes me as very accurate and jibes with (pun intended) my own lived experience of life in the academy. I love my job and am left of center but diversity needs to include diversity of viewpoints, along with all the other kinds of diversity.

    'Woke' is a rather squishy term, but using it in lieu of something more specific, the dreary thing about a 'woke' agenda is just how non-revolutionary it is: that is to say while it wants to empower certain groups to redress historical grievance, it often presents very little if any challenge to the neo-con (for big business, by big business) status quo in my opinion. Another schema is to recognize a difference between left (which is pro working class regardless of identity) and liberal (which is more about identity politics of various flavors); with the latter of these being in the ascendancy right now on many college campuses.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 6:12am

    #16
    One Jab To Rule Them All...

    One Jab To Rule Them All...

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    A new-age religion.

    Ideologues form a kind of new-age religion which is hostile to facts & reason. In the UK at least, they have infiltrated all the institutions & only employ people of similar mindset - it's like the Borg.

    The people at the top of the pyramid know which buttons to press to get ideologues to back their particular investments or initiatives.... The result is that we have billionaires with tremendous power, and co-opted institutions failing to provide the traditional 'checks & balances'. It's more like a billionaire dictatorship than a democracy - yet people are made to feel more concerned about 'preferred gender pronouns', 'white nationalists under the bed' & other nonsense etc....

     

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 6:32am

    One Jab To Rule Them All...

    One Jab To Rule Them All...

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    Reply to David Henry

    "the dreary thing about a 'woke' agenda is just how non-revolutionary it is: that is to say while it wants to empower certain groups to redress historical grievance, it often presents very little if any challenge to the neo-con (for big business, by big business) status quo in my opinion."

    My feelings too. A revolutionary movement which ultimately benefits the power elites more than the workers - Hmm... It focuses on differences rather than commonalities - creating more social turbulence in sociaty...

    Even the green movement is often funded by the very same groups they are supposed to oppose..., so how can anyone expect them to mount a serious offensive against the status quo?

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 6:53am

    #18
    RandomMike

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    Next major area of study

    So...we know how our world was put together, now we occupy our brains (for we must), with studying how it is falling apart.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 7:07am

    Arthur Robey

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    The Necessity of a Religion.

    Ideologues form a kind of new-age religion

    As the Christian chapter of Abrahamic Monotheism wanes, be assured that the vacuum will be filled by something else.

    We must wrest the power from the atheistic offspring of Abrahamism, Cultural Marxism. And especially from the Thugs of Abrahamism, Islam.

    The future must be in the Past. We need to re-instate the Dharmic religions.

    Ref: The Dharma Manifesto.

    The Native religions of the world must unite into a truly world-wide,  set of catholic religions. It can be done.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 7:34am

    #20
    Tuon

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    Download link?

    Interviews are perfect for downloading onto my mp3 player and enjoying while I exercise.  Could we have a download link for this and future interviews?  Thanks!

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 7:46am

    #21
    bookzilla

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    My two cents worth

    Perhaps the root of our evils dates back to the thought that trade tokens may be exchanged for anything, including political power.  (Comparing prowess at gathering donations has become part of every election!) Those with a knack for accumulating the most determine policy in their own favor, ignite wars for profit, author law, set the populace to work building monuments to their own glory, convert balanced biosystems to poisonous trash and merrily guide the ship of state onto the rocks so they can scamper through the wreckage salvaging prizes.  Since the talent for gathering loot using other folks’ labor and resources doesn’t necessarily require wisdom, altruism, foresight or any other virtue, we become used to a leadership by mannequins sporting the latest frowny-faced facades, while the truly powerful grunt and writhe happily backstage.  So, it should be no surprise that spectacular mismanagement, confused certainty, amorphous rage and shifting contradictions mark our societal slide - at least that’s my two centi-trade tokens worth.  (It didn’t have to be this way- perhaps a wiser successor civilization will permit hoarding of trade tokens by a pitied, befuddled few- but only allow them to be exchanged for giant ornate hats which professional therapists will pretend to envy and admire.)

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 7:47am

    #22

    Arthur Robey

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    Dhama

    If one lives in a culture saturated by one of the Abrahamic sects, one might be under the impression that the proselytizers of Dhama are lone nutters.

    This is not the case.

     Thus, Dharma does not only refer to traditions with which it is usually associated such as Hinduism and Buddhism, but also to the Taoist, Confucian, Zoroastrian, Native American, and European pagan traditions, all of which, this book holds, share a common, basic worldview.

    From the Darmanation.Dhamanation

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 8:27am

    Mpup

    Mpup

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    Freedom and love apologies this is reply to #12

    Freedom and love are not at odds, au contraire, they are complementary.  Love does not preclude one from seeking the truth and what is right, it serves to strengthen the resolve.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 8:47am

    Prairie Rose

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    Prairie Rose said:

    "characteristics of that other institution where talking, joking, and thinking aren’t allowed: church. We have two denominations, both as fact-averse as real churches"

    I like much of Taibbi's writing, but I think he is ascribing whatever lousy experiences he once had with church with all churches. And, I think he has misunderstood the complexity of faith, facts, Truth, belief.

    I agree that some of the craziness we are seeing with masks, vaccines, etc.  has elements that resemble religious fervor, but these things do not equal church or faith in God. Perhaps I got lucky, but facts and questions and inquiry were encouraged in the majority of churches I have attended. Science was not part of discussions because the questions of God and morality are spiritual in nature--meaning, goodness, doing right, the symbolic.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 8:52am

    #25
    Stph

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    Chris: The word for Woke is Egregore. Are you willing to Interview some Woke thinkers/Influencers?

    Woke (/ w oʊ k / wohk) is a term, originating in the United States, that originally referred to awareness about racial prejudice and discrimination.It subsequently came to encompass an awareness of other issues of social inequality, for instance, regarding gender and sexual orientation.Since the late 2010s, it has also been used as a general term for left-wing political movements and ...
    I confess, I don't envy you the task of interviewing a series of Woke people. However, if anyone can do it, and survive the task, I trust that you can!
    Consider, there must be some level of overall integrity in any system of beliefs (although perhaps not an immediately obvious rational one).  That is, there must be  some system of reward or dynamic with fervently believing something which doesn't immediately appear to conform to reality, or the belief system would soon give way to something more effective.
    Peter Boghossian said Wokeism is largely confined to English-speaking countries.  I suspect that is a clue.  Another clue, I think needs to be considered, is the timing of this rapid spread.  Is it tied to "Social Media"?  To Peak Oil?  To Smartphone usage? To the subversion of the' Occupy Wall-Street' movement?  To what?  Linkage isn't necessarily cause, but there IS a cause -- and correlation ought to give us a clue.
    Peter also implied that a lot of people are simply pretending to believe in Wokeism.  Although I have no doubt many people start out faking it, that isn't a sustainable dynamic.  In the absence of other sociodynamic forces, people generally resolve conflicting beliefs by changing beliefs.  How does one come to believe in an identity, a religion -- or Santa Claus? What sustains that belief? What changes it?
    I've been impressed, watching you interview various people - especially when you likely disagree with much of their thinking.  I hope you will consider interviewing some seriously articulate Woke thought leaders.  As you've pointed out repeatedly, understanding an opposing position is paramount to artful resolution.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 9:30am

    Susan Heming

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    Susan Heming said:

    Wokism didn't just arise, it has been ideologically driven through the tertiary education system. It is a self righteous label indicating one has been enlightened to the truth of this new ideological religion. After about 30 years, during which time 'woke' graduates have moved into a range of institutional professions bringing their viewpoints and desire for social change with them, it seems to have suddenly burst forth to surprise us all. But, like a fetus, it was growing and getting ready to be born upon the world.  Now, it is a toddler throwing tantrums.

    Yes, it has also been fed by media, social and corporate, but I have tutored students for over twenty years and I have seen the effect of the ideological education on their perceptions and capacity to critically think. This is the new religion and it isn't a spontaneous evolution of ideas, it is a deliberate construction of ideas and attitudes. I am sick to death of this stuff, so forgive me if I give any such interviews a miss.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 9:37am

    #27
    Knoss

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    Friends with different political views.

    If your friends repeatably vote to initiate violence against you, then no, they are not your friends.  There may come a point where rational discussion fails and bonds must be broken.  The alternative sounds like a form of Stockholm syndrome.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 11:07am

    treebeard

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    Woke, materialism and other things

    Mark_BC, thanks for your rather long exposition, I have had a very similar journey.  As a result, I have rejected the materialistic and mechanistic view of the universe.  It doesn't mean that I deny the physical reality of evolution, as you eloquently said, but the mechanism by which it occurs. It seems that our culture as a whole is unable to deal with, "I don't know", and degenerates immediately into black and white thinking - either you believe evolution in as mechanistic process or you are a creationist.  What total nonsense.

    I have of course generated my own working hypothesis own the nature of universe and human beings role in that unfolding reality, which is constantly evolving, how could not.  If your view of reality is not evolving, then you are dead, either figuratively or literally.

    The dysfunctional thinking method of the wokesters has been around a lot longer than we care to admit, I think it appears to be a rather permanent part of the human condition.  Though I do believe that we are ever so slowly evolving away from that type of unconsciousness.  It is a truism, even in the currently vaulted halls of "science", that it (science) progresses one funeral at a time.  If that is not describing the evolution of a belief system, then what does?  What it does also show however, is that the scientific community (or perhaps used to), permits the existence of a rabble rousing minority that insists on a connection with an ever evolving connection with reality.  If our culture loses the ability to allow this rabble rousing minority to not only exist, but flourish, then our culture will perish.  Of that, I am certain.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 11:13am

    #29
    richard ward

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    good interview but...

    But I noticed when Chris asked him questions of an overall world view he always reverted back to the college view.

    I understand he has been a professor for 30 years and can see that is his main area of expertise. Which I agree is a huge problem. The conditioning of the young in this way only leads in one direction, downhill.

    This doesn't explain the people in  power now acting like this. I would like to hear more of his overall thoughts, a wider view if you will. He can say he "doesn't know" but I'm sure he has some input.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 11:28am

    #30
    helmadi

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    Domestic flyers may need to show proof they're likely COVID-free if Senate bill passes

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2021/09/30/bill-require-vaccination-recovery-testing-domestic-air-travel/5934040001/

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 11:51am

    #31
    Netlej

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    Yes but what about the other 90% of the world?

    As with most of these "big/deep" concepts I am always inclined to point out that it only applies to tiny portion of the population, the portion of the planet called the west or the highly developed world which represents about 10 to 15% of the population or around 1 to 1.5 billion. Of that population "wokeism" is entirely meaningless to more than half of them, they are just living their lives like the other 7+ billion.

    The state of education talked about is an absolute fact and has been heading in this direction for 50+ years, we are just in the blade of the hockey stick period of this process and going vertical.

    Wokeism is just another gaslighting exercise in my opinion. I find that when talking with a wokester that they don't actually even understand half of the real history of the US and its exploits around the world for the last 100 years or so  all of which has done more to define life on this planet than any religion or ism. It is also what will define the end of all life on this planet but I won't go into all that right now.

    Suffice it to say there are very few if any people or places left on the planet that have not been profoundly negatively effected by US actions. Until we all understand this, discuss it openly, and accept the reality we will never be able to accomplish anything that desperately needs to be done.

    OK, now everyone can go back to looking at your belly buttons  now.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 12:15pm

    #32
    Thomas Harrer

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    Fantastic Interview

    Chris & Peter - all I can say is thanks. One of the better interviews I've seen in years! Socratic thinking & discourse is so darn powerful, especially with highlighting "illogical constructs"

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 12:46pm

    #33
    YZ_from_Katy_TX

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    YZ_from_Katy_TX said:

    Just saw this JB and JY want to track every transaction above $600. Why $600? Lot's of interesting stuff buried in that $3.5T bill...

    "The U.S. Chamber of Commerce officially condemned the bill this week, calling it an “existential threat” to the economy."

    https://www.yahoo.com/now / irs-track-bank-transactions-over-140000522.html

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 1:59pm

    Susan7

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    Susan7 said:

    Arthur, would we still need to burn the widows on the funeral pyres of their husbands? Hope not, not very friendly to widows. But I guess it does solve the problem of what to do with all those old women.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 2:07pm

    #35

    thc0655

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    The Woke aren’t just misguided and annoying. They’re hateful and dangerous.

    https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1443962207037968390

    “They who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”

    https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1442558221017702403

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 2:18pm

    greg.y

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    Boycott time?

    I am boycotting and defunding the manipulators. Ended my subscription to The Guardian. Their recent articles against Ivermectin & anything anti- vac are pure propaganda, and ironically can be proven lies just by carefully reading the reference links, (when they provide any), because what the references actually say is not what they claim in their articles. I presume they are confident no one ever reads the links. My son thinks I’m hoodwinked by false conspiracies and tries to prove me wrong by referencing Factcheck.org. I follow his links only to discover that on these subjects Factcheck has been doing zero investigative reporting and simply quotes reps from the CDC and the WHO as fact proofs.

    Also, I hope you have backups of your old blog videos. Yesterday Youtube announced they will be taking down any content that questions vaccine efficacy or harm. I will now no longer open any Youtube link.

    There is also much reporting going on about the ‘great progress’ of the forthcoming anti-viral pill, but there is deadly silence as to what is in it. However I did see one mention that it has a broad way of blocking a key function of all viruses. This has me wondering, as unintended consequences often follow broad stroke ‘solutions’. Do we have ‘good’ viruses in us just as we have ‘good’ bacteria? Have you gotten any insight on this pill yet?

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 3:13pm

    TMc

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    Wow!!

    Hope you keep digging…thank you for going into detail into how you used science to figure out intelligent design.  I am a believer and have witnessed many miracles and have seen many signs.  There are intelligent beings beyond our realm…God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and heavenly hosts.  You can call them what you want but they are there and all around us.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 4:21pm

    Mots

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    origins of life

    Mark_BC
    I went through a similar voyage of discovery as you and became a biologist as a result of my curiosity.  But my conclusions differ from yours.

    1. you assume that atoms and molecules are not living but instead follow some strict "laws" of physics or chemistry.  Then you define life as self replicating cells, which suddenly are alive and come from non-alive stuff.

    Actually nothing is self replicating because everything relies on a larger homeostatic environment that facilitates "self" reproduction.  Is some thing or someone self replicating when it cannot do it alone but relies on a cocoon of gravity, temperature between 300-310 degrees kelvin, certain moisture and pressure and special nutrients supplied by others of its own kind? ... but that should be a separate discussion.

    2. consequently you seem to be looking for a "mechanism" that converts "non living" atoms and molecules into "living" cells.

    I disagree with your assumptions.
    Instead, I conclude that atoms and molecules comprising carbon (and silicon/germanium/GpIII-GpV combinations such as gallium arsenide) are living or at least have some properties of "life."  In fact, the property of being essentially balanced as seen in carbon etc. has analogues throughout the layers of life.

    When studying organic chemistry, we assume that all molecules of a set within a glass flask follow the exact same rules.  But in reality, only MOST molecules do that.  There is a wide spectrum of reaction products (small amounts of unexpected or different results) from a reaction of large numbers of molecules in the glassware.  I do NOT assume that those molecules are non-living any more than I assume that human beings are non-living just because when gas prices drop, more gas is consumed by the humans (a predicted property of a non-living entity such as a fossil fuel motor).  And by the way, those pure chemical reactants in the organic chemistry flask have a wide variety of members, if you look at their individual energies (of various types even within a molecule) and extreme isotopic differences etc.

    life at all levels (including the molecular and sub molecular) have the same life properties.  a. they form more complex forms in order to minimize their own entropy and increase their own stability, at the expense of their surroundings.

    b. they follow basic energy desires that a. create increased entropy in their surrounds, in order to create greater internal stability.  These energy rules concern molecules as well as cells and civilizations, as explored by Jeremy England, who CM referenced here a couple years ago.
    Here is an example:  a small atom or small molecule is exposed to a great number of random, interfering forces that controls it.  Translational, rotational, vibrational effects on the small molecule constantly and randomly control its behavior. This is  extremely horrific/entropic to that entity.  But by merely joining to form a large molecule, such imparted environmental force perturbations are shared throughout a larger assemblage of atoms, which allows each bump of random energy from the outside for use/harvesting by one portion of the larger molecule.  As a member of the larger group (molecule) an energy bump (whether physical or from light etc.) received by one atom, will be shared and transferred to the others.  Existence becomes more homeostatic.

    Such sharing creates a greater homeostasis, and less random existence to each of the contributing members.  This is a life-like property that we see emerge as well when large assemblages form cells, cells form tissues, tissues form organisms, humans form societies.  As you go up the life chain, each layer has more control over its environment and each higher layer provides more stability/security/existence-persistence to its components.  In other words, I argue that even atoms and molecules are alive, or partly alive, to the extent that they are balanced and form larger entities (carbon based being the best example).

    The key point here is that organic chemistry rules describe the nature of large groups of atoms/compounds and does not describe the behavior of every single member directly.  We should not assume that decision making or free will suddenly emerges at some "higher" layer of life but does not exist at lower layers.

    Miracles
    It seems that this "origin of life" discussion is relevant to the notion of where a "miracle" comes from.  So, here is my contribution to the miracle story:

    Here is an example of a miracle, which emerges from this layering.  Consider the life of a cell within a body.  That cell becomes infected with a bad bacterium.  Not only that cell but other cells around it are infected and about to die.  Suddenly, penicillin arrives on the scene.  The penicillin kills the bacteria and rescues the cells.  Now, you are one of those cells and have no understanding of a brain, language, human history, Sir Alexander Fleming or of the synthesis and distribution of penicillin.  Where did that penicillin come from?  In a similar manner, consider a human being within something larger.  A miracle happens wherein some large entity (perhaps separated by both space and time) that considers that human being part of its greater collective existence and looks out for it.  From the viewpoint of the human, there is no explanation of the miracle.  We should not assume that we know everything and should embrace the notion of "I dont know" and stop making $hit up.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 5:25pm

    #39
    helmadi

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    Tell Senate to vote YES on the NO VACCINE MANDATES ACT!

    https://limitgov.salsalabs.org/no-vaccine-mandates-act/index.html

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 8:01pm

    #40
    Dontknownothin

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    Redrawing and redefining that lines of separation

    This was another excellent interview. It always strikes me as a mark of respectability when someone says thry "used to be liberal" it means to me they woke up to the non-sense of feelings and self-flagelation in policy decisions. But more than that, they can realize that kindness and reason are not mutually exclusive ideas.

    I would characterize myself as libertarian. Strongly opposed to government in almost any aspect of private life, whether ruling on what genders can marry or what a person can do with their own body or soul. Its no ones business but their own and God's. So while I can be morally opposed to something I can't control anyones behavior but my own, and frankly I don't WANT to. The consequences are theirs alone.

    But this last ten years (generally I'd say twenty) has really redefined the groups within our society. There has been a seismic shift in what liberalism means (basically acceptance of the blank check of "change") and even conservativism (now definable as conserving the constitution and the bill of rights and history). As a libertarian I have my biases, but most of it is a suspicion of the popular and rejection of authority, and what I have seen is a merging of these two ideas in the mainstream. We have people whose ifentity revolves around their acceptibility adopting philosophies that are inexcusable by evidence because they are told that is what is popular. This has alienated those who like Peter Beghossian are classic liberal libertarians, free thinkers and philosophers.

    To me the axis has shifted. I now have more in common with people I once considered my ideological adversaries than I do with those I once supported. The axis is now between liberty and loyalty, integrity and ideology, control and conscience. And honestly, I have never been happier to be oppressed. As he said in the interview [paraphrase] the bonds of virtue relationships are more rewarding than any built on pure agreement.

    I've said it before, but this moment in history has exposed me to more people whose ideas were deemed too sordid for a reputable person to embrace, but I feel like I am finally hearing the truth that was once resinated only in isolated enclaves. Now that the lines of battle have been redrawn and those people are now on my side of that divide, I am a fuller person with a much richer perspective than before. Like Chris said, I never thought I'd find myself championing Nikki Menaj or her ideas. But now I actually have respect for her because of the courage it takes to put your reputation on the line to go against the grain. I won't listen to her music or buy her albums, but as a person I see the strength that got her to the position she's in. And I think without Covid none of this would have been able to come to fruition.

    So there is the silver lining on the mushroom cloud of our cultural demise. I think if society has to collapse, I'm glad that at least those resisting getting pulled down with it are people I would want to rebuild with when its all over. Come what may, I see more hope from the remnant than I ever did with the society we are trying to preserve. So I say, let it go, we have the right people to truly "Build back better".

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 8:28pm

    #41

    Arthur Robey

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    Speaking of UFOs

    Here is a bit of a giggle. A skeptic wants to see a laboratory replication of a UFO experience before he will believe it. Good luck with that.





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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 8:36pm

    Arthur Robey

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    Arthur Robey said:

    Freedom and love are not at odds

    That is not my position, nor the position of Freya.

    Freedom is a superior value to love because without freedom you cannot experience the results of your choices, and thus become wise.

    The experience of absolute unconditional love is pathological altruism in which the very things that are desired, the fruits of civilization, are destroyed by rapacious hordes.

    As cleverness is to wisdom, so is love to freedom.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 10:15pm

    Mpup

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    Thank you Arthur

    For your reply.  I wish you peace, happiness, and health.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 10:49pm

    Arthur Robey

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    Hi Susan.

    Freedom is the prime value.

    If the widows want to burn with their husband's corpse, they are free to do so. It is not for you nor I to impose our squeamishness upon them.

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  • Fri, Oct 01, 2021 - 11:43pm

    #45
    Island girl

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    The need for Discernment

    The term "liberal" has its roots in the term, liberty (latin: libertas). Liberalism, as a philosophy, was expounded by people like John Locke, who influenced the American Founders, and John Stuart Mill. This philosophy favored the free exploration of ideas and the concept of individual rights. Conservatism has its roots in the concept of conservation, which is to value and preserve that which is good (from Latin conservare "to keep, preserve, keep intact, guard,"). From this standpoint, for example, environmental conservation (stewardship) is a conservative position that benefits us and future generations.

    The terms liberal and conservative were divorced from their linguistic roots when they became associated with political ideologies.

    When viewed in their original contexts, these philosophies are two sides of a single coin. The liberal exploration of new ideas must be followed by a process of discernment. Those ideas that withstand rigorous scrutiny add to our body of knowledge and are worth pursuing.  At the same time, we must also preserve inherited wisdom that has withstood the test of time.  It would be foolish to lose this accumulated brain trust simply for the sake of expediency or "change".  This is the philosophy of conservatism.

    Critical thinking is needed to navigate the tension between free exploration and conservation. It is not a question of either --/or --; rather, we need both --/and--.

     

     

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  • Sat, Oct 02, 2021 - 12:18am

    #46
    Primary Care_MD

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    crimes against humanity - our situation demands more clarity, urgency, force, and organization

    It's WRONG, and EVIL, to coerce anyone to get injected with experimental gene therapy, and this one has a body count. 16,000 deaths reported to VAERS. The response from TPTB: let's go after children and pregnant women.

    Data from other countries DO NOT support the conclusion that these injections reduce hospitalizations or death, for any age, but especially those under thirty.

    Nobody who has gotten these injections has been provided the facts they need to give informed consent -- not Robert Malone; not Steve Kirsch; not anyone.

    The Nuremberg Code, written after the Nazis were defeated, is supposed to protect us from another genocide, administered by doctors and nurses, once again brainwashed into equating depopulation with promoting the public good.

    I feel like I'm not doing enough, but I don't know what else I can do....

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  • Sat, Oct 02, 2021 - 4:55am

    CrLaan

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    CrLaan said:

    It will really stress them out. It's like they have been taught to think in only two dimensions and now their brains are being asked to stretch into three or more dimensions. Which means they cannot be reasoned with. This is not promising...

    generalist education stopped in the 1960/70ties. IMHO

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  • Sat, Oct 02, 2021 - 7:55am

    #48
    ChrisKaz

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    Where are the Wokesters?

    In my experiences so far I have not encountered these people at all. Both in grad school and in a large Pharma company in NJ that I currently work for. One would expect both to be filled with them. Especially in grad school we often had wonderfully deep discussions on controversial topics. It is possible this is a super-vocal but very small minority? It probably helps that I am not on twitter or instagram etc.

    I wonder how much of the this mentality stems from their upbringing as well, I have trouble believing that the college experience can whitewash years of parental influence.

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  • Sat, Oct 02, 2021 - 8:18am

    #49

    thc0655

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    Wokesters are against income inequality

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  • Sat, Oct 02, 2021 - 8:25am

    #50

    Arthur Robey

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    Paranoid Schizophrenic of the World Unite.

    I see that Clif_High is one of us. Here he discusses things that others find out of their cognitive range, thereby establishing the vital role that Schizophrenia plays in society.

    Like salt in a fine recipe it must be carefully controlled. This is why it is consistently 2% males and 1% females, regardless of all other factors, worldwide.

    (Ref: The Madness of Adam and Eve, by Horrobin; if memory serves me well.)

    Let 'er roll, Clif. You are among friends.




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  • Sat, Oct 02, 2021 - 12:28pm

    #51
    wotthecurtains

    wotthecurtains

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    wotthecurtains said:

    Clif is such a fun guy to listen to.   It's OK to not be able to make sense of what he says at times.   They key is to examine your own reaction in those moments.

    Is it:

    "Sorry Clif, Im gonna need more evidence"

    Or is it:

    "OMG!  This guy's a whacko! I can't wait to tell my friends about the whacko I saw the other day!"

    Your answer will tell you a lot about how capable you are of navigating all that is to come.

    I've been warning my wife about Vax Nazis for some time now and yesterday she had a conversation with a couple that are full on.  The sort we talk about here all the time:

    - Not enough restrictions

    - Vax mandates/passports and boosters cannot come fast enough.

    - Covid WILL probably kill you even if vaxxed.

    - Australia has it right (he's Australian)

     

    And so on.  She understands some of the "How to have impossible conversations" ideas and still couldn't inject anything into the conversation.  Not a single fact or figure or alternate point if view.

    She may as well have been Clif high to these people.

     

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  • Sat, Oct 02, 2021 - 2:38pm

    Acorn Endeavors

    Acorn Endeavors

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    First Contact with what we now know as Wokeism

    I live in a backwater state and encountered this nonsense more than 20 years ago.  While getting my master's degree, I was told repeatedly that as a white person I didn't have a culture (news to me!) and was encouraged to study Paolo Friere, leading advocate of critical pedagogy.  Around the same time, my quite young son was "handled" by one of his teenage swim team coaches and he pushed him away and called him a name.   Well, it was social suicide apparently to use that word because not only was my son blamed for everything, even after presenting the evidence, but was required to apologize to the team publicly.  Needless to say, he didn't and they lost their best swimmer on the team immediately and just before the state meet.  It was an eye-opener then, but I didn't imagine what those two isolated incidents would mean for the future of our culture.  I will say this--one of my son's team mates contacted him about 8 years ago and apologized for her part in that charade, which was heartening that she had reconsidered her actions.

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  • Sat, Oct 02, 2021 - 4:01pm

    Susan7

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    Susan7 said:

    Ah Arthur, but the question is, do they really want to burn to death? How would you know? Because they simply climbed up on the pyre?
    All cultures have their horrors, Dharmic not excluded. That’s my only point.

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  • Sat, Oct 02, 2021 - 6:16pm

    Rector

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    7

    What You See Provides All The Evidence Required

    The heavens declare the glory of God;
        the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
     Day after day they pour forth speech;
        night after night they reveal knowledge.
     They have no speech, they use no words;
        no sound is heard from them.
     Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
        their words to the ends of the world.

    You made it to the top of the mountain and found the theologians encamped.

    Rector

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  • Sat, Oct 02, 2021 - 7:20pm

    SagerXX

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Feb 11 2009

    Posts: 687

    10

    Thanks for your amazing post, BC

    I have a little radio show once a week on Maui's community-supported (no format, DJs play whatever they like, it's an awesome example of the beauty you can create when you just step out of the MSM Overton Window) radio station, and each week I do a little monologue at the top of the second hour (of three) of the show.  Here's a quote from last night's offering:

    "And make no mistake, however you conceive this bewitching universe and existence within it – there is an intelligence, a life to it – it's not just random atoms bumping randomly up against each other for all eternity, no: The motive potency behind it all, call it God or the Divine or Tao or The Force or elan vital prana chi mana ki whatever – the power behind it all is ready to give and take with you, in a relationship as real and intimate as the sort we seek in a human partner. – So, if your life seems to be going sideways, I humbly suggest you recalibrate your approach, that you tune your plan up with a thought that your approach needs to take into account the partnership with the universe itself."

     

    VIVA -- Sager

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  • Sat, Oct 02, 2021 - 8:02pm

    #56
    Netlej

    Netlej

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    0

    Fortunately we live in America where no one can force you to allow someone to inject an unknown substance into your body.

    Land of the free and all that. It's only in some communist country or Nazi Germany where that happens. We all fought long and hard so we are not subjected to forced injections. Many hundreds of thousands of AMERICANS died over the last 200 or so years so we would not be subjected to that kind of supreme oppression.

    Lets all stand for the pledge of allegiance......... hows that go again?.... something about god blessing us or something?

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  • Sat, Oct 02, 2021 - 8:15pm

    Acorn Endeavors

    Acorn Endeavors

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    11

    Acorn Endeavors said:

    In a phone conversation with my Mom today, she said "all unvaccinated should be taken out", which to me sounded like killed.  I asked her if that meant she'd like me killed--she was aghast and asked "how I could think that?"  Well, Mom, because I hear it every day.  For the unvaccinated, it's like being in Germany of 1938 and I just assumed you agreed.

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  • Sat, Oct 02, 2021 - 8:31pm

    #58
    cray1380

    cray1380

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    2

    Brilliant fascinating educational.

    There is an overwhelming flood of information and comment about everything.  This is one I will be watching again and following the links/suggestions.

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  • Sat, Oct 02, 2021 - 8:33pm

    Acorn Endeavors

    Acorn Endeavors

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    3

    SAgerXX

    So glad to hear from you in Maui.  We've been almost every year in the last twenty, but no more than 3 weeks at a time.  I was never aware there was an independent station like you described.  Happy to hear you have that support.  We miss the island, but understand why locals might not want the deluge they've come to know.  Maui Na Ka  'Oi  and Aloha.

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  • Sat, Oct 02, 2021 - 8:55pm

    eek

    eek

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    14

    eek said:

    My adult son basically said the same thing about people taking horse wormers. "They're so stupid they should just go and die."  I told him I had 4 tubes in my fridge, should I just die?  He changed the subject real quick without answering me.  It's maddening that my son's are so brainwashed.   Both live in Asia and are getting really comfortable with the constant surveillance and being followed by their phones.  Gives me the creeps.

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  • Sat, Oct 02, 2021 - 9:12pm

    #61
    Netlej

    Netlej

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    Joined: Dec 09 2020

    Posts: 332

    4

    The Bible of the new Global Religion called Technology is the "Smart" Phone.

    The Bible of the new Global Religion called Technology is the "Smart" Phone in the hands of somewhere between 4 to 5 billion people all day, every day 24-7-365 somewhere in the world.

    Nothing else in the history of humans even comes close.

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  • Sat, Oct 02, 2021 - 10:26pm

    #62
    elsur

    elsur

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    Joined: Sep 10 2008

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    1

    Download Interview as an MP3?

    We are so looking forward to listening to this interview!  Is there any chance you can make it available to download as an mp3 so we can listen while we are off-line?

    Thank you!

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  • Sun, Oct 03, 2021 - 12:37am

    #63
    Anthony Lu

    Anthony Lu

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    Joined: Sep 03 2021

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    9

    'Wokeism' is the result of decades of active 'Ideological Subversion'

    For those who have not watched Yuri Bezmenov's interview and lecture from the 1980's describing his experiences and duties as a KGB agent during the Cold War, I would highly recommend viewing them - links are at bottom. He describes the process of 'ideological subversion', whereby a society's values are eroded, its institutions and intellectuals are compromised, its youth are indoctrinated. The Soviet Union and People's Republic of China have been running this playbook for decades while we turned a blind eye. Today's social upheaval and inexorable slide towards authoritarianism are the terrifying culmination of their efforts.

     

    1) Our students are taught Critical Race Theory, woke values, and a plethora of genders,

    2) our prestigious science journals (Lancet, Nature) refuse to acknowledge that SARS-CoV-2 is the product of gain-of-function research conducted at Wuhan Institute of Virology (unethical research conducted in collaboration with a regime that is far more brutal than the Nazi Empire),

    3) Our mainstream media functions like state propaganda, our social media actively censors its users according to political views,

    4) Literal communists (BLM, Antifa) riot in our major cities while politicians move to defund our police departments...

    The examples are too numerous. Many of the social issues we face today are not an accident - they are by malevolent design. We need to open our eyes and see clearly in order to extricate ourselves from this mess.









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  • Sun, Oct 03, 2021 - 12:44am

    #64
    Craig

    Craig

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    1

    All those resources..

    I listened to this great conversation while driving and kept telling myself  “oh, I want to read that book they just suggested or watch that video series.”

    @Chris, any chance the team has a list of all those suggested resources?

    Thanks!

     

     

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  • Sun, Oct 03, 2021 - 1:04am

    Anthony Lu

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    Anthony Lu said:

    Arthur Robey wrote:

    "[Materialism] ran slap-bang into the double slit experiment. Nothing we have done has resurrected it. On the contrary, every experiment since then has been another nail in it's coffin."

    Double slit experiment does not invalidate materialism. Not even close. I'm not aware of any experiment in quantum mechanics or quantum field theory that invalidates materialism. You're trying too hard to fit your favored interpretation to counter-intuitive results - in other words, overreaching.

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  • Sun, Oct 03, 2021 - 6:15am

    #66
    Dutch

    Dutch

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    6

    Dutch said:

    A few days ago I had my annual physical. My doctor is part of a very large, multi-disciplinary, multi-office physician group. He told me two interesting things. First, his office, which is large in it own right, had only a single patient COVID death since February. Second, a large majority of his patients are convinced/terrified they are going to die if they get COVID and are demanding he prescribe anti-anxiety/depression medication. He counsel’s they’re unlikely to die due to vaccines and treatments. They are unswayed. They’re mentally shot.

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  • Sun, Oct 03, 2021 - 6:44am

    Rob De Paoli

    Rob De Paoli

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    Joined: Sep 03 2021

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    4

    Evolution...or intervention?

    Interesting post Mark_BC. It reminded me of Chris Martenson’s question “How *did* that polybasic furin cleavage site get into Covid-19?”

    https://mobile.twitter.com/chrismartenson/status/1268531539488497666?lang=en

    The question Chris was asking in relation to coronaviruses raises a more significant question about whether or not, as you said, “biological complexity can emerge, directed by nothing more [than] selection pressure, from random genetic mutation”.

    I don’t believe it can, which is why I don’t believe for a second that COVID-19 arose  naturally.

    But let’s take it a step further, could the biological complexity we see in all living things have emerged by chance through random mutations? Again, I don’t believe it could have.

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  • Sun, Oct 03, 2021 - 11:31am

    Sean_R

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    Joined: Jul 30 2014

    Posts: 37

    2

    Egregore is the correct metaphor but interviewing a practitioner would be futile

    - Yes, the concept of the egregore is useful.  It helps us see how groupthink and institutionalism works on groups of people and individuals.

    - Would anything really be gained from talking to a high priest of the low cult of Wokeism?  I doubt it.

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  • Sun, Oct 03, 2021 - 11:49am

    Canuckian

    Canuckian

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    Joined: May 27 2010

    Posts: 165

    4

    Canuckian said:

    Second, a large majority of his patients are convinced/terrified they are going to die if they get COVID

    I'm convinced that the nocebo effect of all the fear porn has actually caused many to die when they contracted covid.

    If you look at the phase 3 clinical trials run by Pfizer and Moderna, you'll notice that the covid infection rate was stunningly low. Also, when I look at my own relationships to one degree of separation, very few people contracted it (and that was right at the start of the pandemic) and only one person was hospitalised.

     

    These facts really make me question the true nature of the pandemic.

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  • Sun, Oct 03, 2021 - 6:15pm

    Sean_R

    Sean_R

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    Joined: Jul 30 2014

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    1

    The Woke Agenda Was Made In America

    There is far more evidence that "the personal is political" agenda and identity politics came out of domestic US policies designed to turn the Moscow backed Old Left into the soft and self-absorbed New Left.  That may have made sense 50 years ago but "today's problem was yesterday's solution".

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  • Sun, Oct 03, 2021 - 7:04pm

    Anthony Lu

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    Anthony Lu said:

    Sean_R:

    'There is far more evidence that "the personal is political" agenda and identity politics came out of domestic US policies designed to turn the Moscow backed Old Left into the soft and self-absorbed New Left.  That may have made sense 50 years ago but "today's problem was yesterday's solution".'

    Could you share some of this evidence?

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  • Sun, Oct 03, 2021 - 7:29pm

    Sean_R

    Sean_R

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    Re: The Woke Agenda Was Made In America

    For example:





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  • Sun, Oct 03, 2021 - 7:53pm

    kat_winf

    kat_winf

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    3

    Awesome interview …

    … hitting the nail right on the head!

    IMO you have to go way back (not years but decades) in order to understand that Wokeism was not introduced just yesterday in Western universities. I am no sociologist so the following is just derived from my observations in the last four decades.

    I took part in a students exchange program in 198x and ended up in Northern California in a relatively small town (at least compared to the large German city I came from).

    A concept I got acquainted with in high school was being „politically (in)correct“, something I never heard before until then. In Germany back then, we were trained in high school to controversial discourses (okay, not in Catholic Religion class, in which everybody who stated „god doesn‘t allow ending life by abortion“ received straight A‘s, whereas everybody fighting for the right of abortion with really good arguments received no better than a C. However, the discussion was allowed, the dissenting opinions were punished „only“).

    I guess that in 198x some of the (younger) Californian high school  teachers who were part of the student movements in the 196xies brought the concept into high school.

    So, until some of these 198x high school students ended up as a professor in a college/university approx two decades went by. Thus they were the ones teaching those today 40ish women.

    However or better unfortunately, this concept has arrived in German universities as well.

    I had to rub my eyes and re-read an article in a German newspaper that German sociology students prefer a limitation of the freedom of speach in order not to be confronted with lectures by professors with opinions different from their opinion and would rather not allow them to teach and ban their books from the library.

    https://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/debatten/toleranz-studie-ueber-meinungsfreiheit-an-hochschulen-17044294.html?GEPC=s1

    The same happened when I read an article just last month that covered the wokeism in the German Department of Foreign Affairs.

    https://m.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/das-auswaertige-amt-bekennt-sich-zur-diversitaet-17396387.html

    I am curious how this will develop further under the upcoming very much likely far more left German government yet to be formed.

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  • Mon, Oct 04, 2021 - 6:21am

    #74
    Hladini

    Hladini

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    Joined: Dec 28 2011

    Posts: 363

    8

    Strong Future Trend

    Not quite finished listening to this interview and have not read the comments yet, but I just have to talk about a strong future trend:  Private Education.  Sort of like home schooling on steroids.  It's also a blast from the past.  Long before public/government funded education, teachers were paid by the students' families or sponsors.

    The next generation cannot be educated fast enough!  PP might consider putting together a curriculum K-12, to include trades.  The  trades is the real education.  I've listened to hundreds of hours of WWII survivor stories and many of these interviews go into great depth and description of what life was like before the war, including their education.  Most graduated 8th grade and went on to trade school or higher education.  By the time they graduated from trade school (about 4 years) these kids were journeymen in their trade.  They came out of school with actual skills.  All had to learn at least one foreign language, most played some sort of instrument or sang, almost all belonged to civic and/or political clubs, and sports were very prominent.

    So many parents across the country are fuming over the policies and curriculums of their local schools.   These same parents are also understanding they have little to no say about just about everything in regard to their children's education and welfare while at school.  Federal funds hold public schools hostage to Federal policies.

    Unfortunately, almost without exception, the Feds implement Piss Poor Public Policies.   So yeah, public education is  screwed and private education will grow - if it's not regulated out of existence!

    Off topic:  Am trying to source CB radios/antenna and a ham radio that includes a hand crank.  Found what I was looking for, but it's a Canadian company and I was asked to sign an agreement to abide by Canadian radio laws.  I'm wondering will cb/ham radios bought in Canada work in US?  Is it a matter of programming the radios?  Am I supposed to sign a similar agreement if bought in US?  If anyone knows, please message me.  Thanks.

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  • Mon, Oct 04, 2021 - 10:20am

    skywolf

    skywolf

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    2

    ham radio group

    There's a facebook group that might be a good source of info for you.

    https://www.facebook.com/ARRL.org

     

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  • Mon, Oct 04, 2021 - 7:28pm

    Hladini

    Hladini

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    Primary Care MD

    It's a 50-50 deal.  50% the authorities fault and 50% the public's fault.   People have to take responsibility for what goes into their bodies, at least 50%.  It's hard to watch.  If this thing  goes hard south, I'm going to lose a lot of friends, colleagues and (extended) family members.

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  • Mon, Oct 04, 2021 - 7:29pm

    Hladini

    Hladini

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    Thank you Skywolf

    I'll hold my nose and check out facebook.

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  • Mon, Oct 04, 2021 - 8:18pm

    #78
    helmadi

    helmadi

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    Joined: May 23 2021

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    6

    Pfizer Scientists: ‘Your [COVID] Antibodies Are Better Than The [Pfizer] Vaccination.'

    https://odysee.com/@ProjectVeritas:7/pfizer-scientists-%E2%80%98your-covid:6

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  • Mon, Oct 04, 2021 - 9:11pm

    Primary Care_MD

    Primary Care_MD

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    Primary Care_MD said:

    Most of my friends and neighbors took the jab. But most of them did so because 1. their job or college required it  2. their doctor recommended it. 3. they trust the govt, msm, and big pharma, and cannot imagine that these institutions would want to deliberately harm them.  I hope these injections completely backfire and actually do end up providing protection. Even more, I pray that most of those who've submitted have no medium or long-term side effects.

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  • Mon, Oct 04, 2021 - 9:25pm

    TMc

    TMc

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    TMc said:

    SagerXX, I have an app that lets me listen to radio all over the world…I would love to listen to your station. Your monologue was so good!! I will search yours out.  I love independent radio.  Stay well!!

    Tmc/Tonya

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  • Mon, Oct 04, 2021 - 11:38pm

    #81
    helmadi

    helmadi

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    Joined: May 23 2021

    Posts: 77

    3

    Study: Pfizer Covid shot’s protection against infection tumbles over six months

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/04/pfizer-covid-vaccine-protection-against-infection-tumbles-to-47percent-study-confirms.html

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  • Tue, Oct 05, 2021 - 10:18am

    Sean_R

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    Project Veritas Pfizer Video

    It's unfortunate that Project Veritas rats out concerned Pfizer insiders in that video.  Those people will be disciplined or fired and Pfizer will just roll along doing what it does.

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  • Tue, Oct 05, 2021 - 1:40pm

    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

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    1

    Yes, not very ethical

    At the very least, tell them once the video is recorded.  Urge them to be courageous and allow you to release it.  Do your best to find them employment and offer legal representation and a way to cover any damages awarded to Pfizer for NDA violations.

    These folks are not going to have warm, fuzzy feelings towards Project Veritas and could quite possibly be recruited (with incentives or threats) to effectively attack them.

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  • Tue, Oct 05, 2021 - 9:00pm

    #84
    helmadi

    helmadi

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    Joined: May 23 2021

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    helmadi said:

    www.stopmedicaldiscrimination.org

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  • Wed, Oct 06, 2021 - 9:31am

    #85
    bookzilla

    bookzilla

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    Joined: Jun 09 2021

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    1

    The Story So Far...

    Might this summarize our shared pandemic adventure so far?

    “Playing with matches” Researchers and administrators with fantasies of dollar signs and Nobel Prizes quietly dabble in viral monster making, like children “just building a tiny campfire in the living room”.

    “Panic I” The desk catches fire and the fire starts to spread.  Hiding doesn’t seem to work, but a parent runs in, squirting everyone with a garden hose as sparks blow out the window.  

    “Plan A”  Pharmalords dust off their latest untested moneymakers and politicians pose while their paid planners blindly try to plot a course between credit and blame to maximized fundraising.  Amazingly, Plan A emerges which involves enormous profit to the pharmalords and their minions in “The Great Coinkydink”.  A transcontinental “vax only” drumbeat which would shame a fleetworth of Roman galley overseers fills the air, overwhelming reports of success and failure from field efforts to stem the crisis.  The match-playing children emerge to mislead the firefighters while the neighbors cheer!

    “Frustration”  Mass chaos ensues, while victims fall to determined efforts to administer mistaken treatments, the media wail, and regular folks impatiently wait for a return to the way things used ta’ be.  Politicians who had been crouched to spring triumphantly atop the nearest hospital as the “vax cured all” now slink off to resume poking each other in the eyes.

    “Panic II”  Politicians realize that the pandemic will definitely not boost reelection chances, researchers begin to fear future stricter adult supervision and administrators start lining up bail bond providers.  Plan B emerges- the Search for Scapegoats.  Since classic witch hunts and pogroms are out and no exorcists are available, the unvaxxed will take the brunt of blame.  The Law and the Media will deal with those enemies of public health and prosperity.  Ethical medical professionals remain silent at the spiritual price of remaining an employed team player.  The original players-with-matches watch in smug relief as the other neighborhood kids are soundly spanked.

    “Playing with matches”. Here we go again!

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  • Wed, Oct 06, 2021 - 5:56pm

    #86
    helmadi

    helmadi

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    Joined: May 23 2021

    Posts: 77

    0

    helmadi said:





     





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  • Thu, Oct 07, 2021 - 7:27am

    #87
    Floo2001

    Floo2001

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    Joined: Oct 07 2021

    Posts: 5

    0

    Floo2001 said:

    sfht

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