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    Coronavirus: Listening To (And Rebutting) The Critics

    There a new campaign to convince us covid-19 "isn't as bad" as we're expecting
    by Adam Taggart

    Wednesday, March 25, 2020, 8:08 PM

All through February and into early March, the media was awash with headlines that scoffed “Don’t worry — it’s just the flu”.

While most of those news outlets have pivoted and are now more likely to print sensationally fearful articles (the same who accused our data driven approach as “fear mongering” just weeks ago), we’re seeing a new campaign now of opinion pieces by credentialed ‘experts’ claiming the virus may not be as bad as initially expected.

In today’s video, Chris goes through a number of these recent articles and addresses them point by point:

As empirically-driven thinkers, at PeakProsperity.com we don’t shy away from a challenge to our conclusions. We’re of the mind that the best facts should win, and if the data changes, our analysis will change with it.

But Chris doesn’t find much in these recent ‘expert’ opinions besides false hope. And poor logic.

Which just goes to underscore why we need to continue thinking for ourselves here. So many of our “leaders” and “experts” failed to warn and prepare us for this pandemic, for reasons ranging from politics to incompetence.

So keep educating yourself. And we’ll keep producing our daily updates and analysis to aid your understanding.

If you haven’t read it already, read our Coronavirus Home Lockdown Survival Guide.

We’ve written it to be a comprehensive collection of the resources you need to stay safe, sane and solvent through the covid-19 crisis.

It’s a great tool for getting everyone in your household on the same page — print it out and have them read it:

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114 Comments

  • Wed, Mar 25, 2020 - 8:23pm

    #1

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 806

    8

    Planting In Containers

    Growing in containers is a great way to provide yourself with some extra fresh food, especially if you have little space. Not only that, you can move them around depending on weather as well as take them inside to protect them.

    We happen to have a great tutorial on how to make some containers that really help your plants thrive.

    Self Watering Garden Containers

    I'm planting a big bunch of lettuces, spinach and kale in them tomorrow, I'll post pictures. Here though is a picture from last year.

    BTW, 2 gallon buckets weigh a lot less than 5 gallon. Easier to carry and work just as well.

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  • Wed, Mar 25, 2020 - 8:39pm

    #2

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 806

    4

    Great Pictures Of What We Need Growing

    VegasJim just posted great pictures of his and his wife's "Victory" garden in this thread.

    https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum-topic/do-you-have-a-victory-garden/

    Here's just one picture, check the rest out.

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  • Wed, Mar 25, 2020 - 9:35pm

    #3
    ao

    ao

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 04 2009

    Posts: 1389

    6

    death rate of closed cases is now up to 16% dead

    I predicted to my wife that the number of cases in the US would surpass Italy by this weekend and China by next weekend.  I hope I'm wrong but I fear I'll be right.

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  • Wed, Mar 25, 2020 - 9:37pm

    #4
    Copper’s Hu-mom

    Copper’s Hu-mom

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 01 2020

    Posts: 43

    1

    Container gardening

    Whoops, I bought 7 gallon bags. Guess I am going to be working on my deadlifts!  I have never had success growing anything in the ground  at my current home, but I am going to give containers a try, so thanks for sharing, dtrammel. Started seeds today for lettuces,  Persian cubes, zucchini, haricots verts, and cherry tomatoes.  Got seeds for container varieties from Renee’s Garden (I don't recall who here  recommended them, it may have been you!) but I am grateful and hopeful to have veggies this summer!

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  • Wed, Mar 25, 2020 - 10:23pm

    #5
    stefan@olssonstefan.com

    [email protected]

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    Joined: Mar 26 2020

    Posts: 1

    2

    Some private Unis run investment in equities and property is a big chunk of their economy. They will get drastically hit by lockdowns of economy.

    Hi Chris

    In the last episode "Listening to (and rebutting) the critics" you cite and criticize Stanford and Yale professors if I remember correctly. Both are Private universities heavily dependent on their investment portfolio performances. In the case of Yale they have a lot of their "wealth" locked up in direct owning of properties (as the President) that cannot easily be sold and the money moved somewhere more secure. Thus these professors and their possibility to work and do research in the future could be severely hit by extensive lockdowns hurting their Unis investment portfolios as would the President. I am not saying they are doing this deliberately but of course you want to find any glimmer of hope things can be less of a problem than it is, if you are in their situation (called unconscious bias)! Maybe you could trust public university professors more (if they live on their salaries and not investments)?

    Best wishes,

    Stefan

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  • Wed, Mar 25, 2020 - 10:30pm

    #6
    Hudsonstel

    Hudsonstel

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 26 2020

    Posts: 2

    3

    Hudsonstel said:

    I love you show been following for I think exactly 60 days never miss a video and have seen it before a hour after posting every day thanks for the advice about making a garden I have carrot seeds coming tomorrow and I already have about 20 pots laid out with soil on my porch also now listening to you I have been able to say I told you so to my family who thought I was crazy till like a week ago

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  • Wed, Mar 25, 2020 - 10:34pm

    #7
    Hudsonstel

    Hudsonstel

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 26 2020

    Posts: 2

    2

    Victory Gardens

    For anyone not good at gardening like me may I suggest carrots which are pretty self sufficient and great with barley any care plus you only need to water them once a week

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  • Wed, Mar 25, 2020 - 10:53pm

    #8
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 838

    1

    DT regarding garden

    I don't have a good grade or or sun on my property ( but its not really sunny where I live - it rains about 250 days per year.. And we have only 2 partly sunny days of the last 45 anyway...  But I do have a few grow lights and a couple hydroponic units.

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  • Wed, Mar 25, 2020 - 10:59pm

    #9
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 838

    1

    only the good die young.

    I am not sure what this bit about lately , I hear people saying that young people don't even get this or get symptoms.   In my state we have 400 cases between 20-40 years . and 200 cases between 40-60 years and 100 cases between 60-80 years.   Looks like your chance of getting this go down with age here.. And I bet you those young'ns aren't asymptomatic.. Because , I know for sure they are not out just testing people that look and feel well.. So.. I am tired of the excuse - that this just kills the guy in 90 in a wheel chair that would die if the wind blew.

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  • Wed, Mar 25, 2020 - 11:40pm

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 806

    0

    Welcome Hudsonstel

    Great to hear you've start a garden in pots. That's what we are going to need to get through this crisis. Small individuals making big changes and growing things.

    I've not had good luck growing carrots. The Missouri soil is heavy with clay and it makes a hard soil for root veggies like carrots to grow in, though there are some carrots, like the Parisians which are short and round like turnips. Those might do well.

    I've had better luck with smaller onions though, especially some of the Asian varieties.

    If you can, please post pictures.

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  • Wed, Mar 25, 2020 - 11:50pm

    #11

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 806

    2

    Funny story,

    And we have only 2 partly sunny days of the last 45 anyway…  But I do have a few grow lights and a couple hydroponic units.

    Funny story there nordicjack, several years back I planted peppers between my tomatoes. Wrong thing to do. The tomatoes quickly outgrew the peppers and most died from lack of sun.

    I have a nursery I get most of my starters from and in a conversation with their head gardener, he says put them in hanging baskets.

    I did that next year and got great results. I was able to move them around and get good light where I could. The end of that year he mentioned that if you bring your peppers in they will survive. He said peppers aren't annuals that die in the Fall but are tropical plants that can last several season. They just die when it gets real cold. Bring them inside and they will lose most of their leaves but as long as you have a grow light on them they will come back strong next year.

    I ended up with like 9 containers of peppers plus three containers of purslane (amazing plant, grow some) in the Fall, so I go to the local hydroponics store (aka the "pot store") and tell the guy I need a grow lamp for my peppers. He goes in the back and grabs a single 110 watt bulb.

    I go "No I need something bigger" and go to the big 4 bulb 48" grow lamps. "I need three of these".

    He looks at me and just says "Peppers, yeah you're growing peppers".

    Later I realize just what plant he thought I was growing, lol.

    ADDED: Here's the indoor setup

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  • Wed, Mar 25, 2020 - 11:56pm

    #12
    Matties

    Matties

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jan 30 2020

    Posts: 160

    2

    Deflation versus inflation

    Technology is doubling every so much months and is inherent deflationary. Society is printing money to raise inflation to keep the old systems in place and working. Ever more money is needed to do so and it will break the social contract.

     

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 12:48am

    #13

    Afridev

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Oct 11 2013

    Posts: 154

    3

    Parts of open letter to local authorities

    Putting parts of the open letter I shared with local Municipal authorities and politicians here. Some of the numbers used may be outdated now.The name of the Municipality has been replaced by Xxx.

    Maybe useful for someone who has some traction at their local level.

    I think one of the main challenges in building scenarios is that we don't really have a good view on what attack-rates  can be expected.

    If someone would want to have a Swedish translation, PM me and I'll share with you.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    ...

    What are we potentially looking at; a scenario:

    Measures to limit transmission of the infection or mitigate impact of the epidemic have been very slow in Sweden, which will likely worsen the outcome in Swedish society.

    A likely scenario in Xxx with a population of around 11 000 persons and based on an attack rate of 70%, and mortality rates as seen in China:

    • Expected number of deaths: 210 persons (assuming medical structures are able to remain operational, if the larger medical care system is overwhelmed, this will rise and could easily double (based on data from Italy)).
    • Considering 80% asymptomatic or milder symptomatic and 20% needing advanced medical care: over 1 500 persons from Xxx will need medical assistance
    • This epidemic will probably be occurring in a period of 3-6 months with a peak in cases in May/ June.
    • It is likely that normal medical structures will be rapidly overwhelmed and will not be able to absorb more patients. If that happens an increasing number of patients will have to be dealt with within Xxx Kommun and that, with very little help coming from the outside.
    • It is very possible that within weeks from the onset of the real emergency, most medical personnel will be sick, in self-isolation, taking care of family members, or not able to work because of complete exhaustion or burn-out.
    • In this scenario it is unlikely that existing protocols, quality assurance and rules can be maintained throughout the duration of the epidemic.

     

    If this likely scenario plays out, then this will be a very traumatizing experience for the community and the medical and support teams involved. It is the ones on the frontline who will bear the brunt of this.

     

    This scenario is not the worst-case scenario; attack rates of 80% are mentioned elsewhere, and mortality rates used here are roughly half of what they currently are in Italy.

     

    Ultimately, in disasters, only the results and outcomes will count. Reviews at the end of the event will be focusing on results and why they were (not) achieved (in time) and outcomes (in terms of community and staff illness and death, and why these outcomes occurred).

    ...

    Comment: before looking at the local measures the assumption is that a budget has been attributed to response.

    ...

    Needs for dealing with this emergency (non-exhaustive list)

    • An informed scenario that plots the likely development of the epidemic in Xxx over time. This scenario should include expected number of cases, needs in human resources, infrastructure, equipment and materials and should include a projection over time for needs. The scenario needs to consider risks to the response system and provide alternative strategies and approaches to deal with these. The scenario should identify potential stakeholders within Xxx who can provide support. The scenario needs to consider that there may not be a possibility for testing (i.e. many cases will be suspected but not confirmed) and that other medical structures at some point will not be able to respond adequately to the medical needs and that it is possible that a large part of what is currently done by at hospital level will have to be done by teams in Xxx, with limited resources and severely overworked.
    • Plans for reduction of existing services and measures that are in place to scale down existing medical obligation as much as possible. All capacity that can be mobilised will be needed to ensure teams are able to cope with workload. Even with this, it is likely that the teams will not be able to address all needs and maintain standards that need to be upheld under normal conditions. It is unlikely that existing protocols, quality assurance and rules can be maintained. What are the mechanisms for stepping down service level, and based on results and outcomes, what is non-negotiable? The response system will have to be flexible to be able to adapt and achieve the best results and outcomes given the situation.
    • A stand-alone emergency management team working full-time on this. This team needs to have a good level of autonomy and include coordination, medical and medical support staff and logistics/ technical staff. At this point coordination staff should be largely independent, and other staff can be part-time attributed. Once the first cases appear, all staff appointed to the emergency response need to be placed under coordination of the emergency coordination team. Budget, administrative, and legal procedures need to be streamlined and not hamper the advancement of the team. This team will need its own attributed workspace, stock and equipment (e.g. vehicles). Perfection is the enemy of the acceptable in emergency management; ignoring these risks will compound problems and will likely lead to more death and suffering.
    • There are different organisational models that could be used to deal with cases. The decision of what system will be used needs to be made rapidly, and solutions to make this happen rolled out immediately. It is too late to start setting up a system when cases start coming in. There may be a high number of cases coming in on a daily basis. This system will therefore need to be as efficient and simple as possible. It needs to facilitate the control of infection, it needs to consider safe and manageable flow of people and materials, safety for personnel and citizens, accessibility, and the logistics and general management involved. If the outbreak would become extreme, it may become necessary to install designated areas where suspected cases can be received for initial treatment and follow-up. There will probably be a need for designated areas where confirmed cases can receive treatment. These areas need to be set up in a rational way to facilitate safe management of patients, and to support safety of staff.
    • Adequate protection materials for staff. It is an absolute priority that the persons who will be sent out to the front have the adequate materials that can reduce the risk of contamination. Results are everything here, and administrative hurdles that exclude adequate options are to be ignored. At this moment there is still the possibility to obtain certain materials on the market, but this window will be closing rapidly. Obtain non-renewable materials, as it is not certain that supply lines can be maintained and that resupply can occur. Get adequate quantities, and assume that a large part will be broken in the course of work. Ensure to have materials needed to maintain and operate this equipment over the course of the emergency.
    • Easy to understand, effective and brief protocols need to be in place on protection of personnel, patients and others. There is a handbook written by Hejiang University School of Medicine that can be accessed through https://covid-19.alibabacloud.com/#J_8102420620, this seems to be a good start to look for protocols and general guidance.
    • Medical equipment and material, enough to deal with the expected number of cases, again, consider that shortages and breakdowns will occur over the course of the emergency. Consider that Xxx may have to deal with medical issues that are usually refered to other medical structures. Have plans ready for when this becomes likely to occur or occurs.
    • Easy to understand, effective and brief protocols need to be in place on treatment and management of patients, when qualified staff is out of the running, less qualified staff may have to take over from them.
    • A dedicated stock with a simple stock management system for materials and equipment.
    • Have agreements with existing local stakeholders on what they can do and when (e.g. Red Cross, FRG, police, fire department, private sector, church, associations), possibly good to set up a regular meeting platform where they regularly meet for information exchange and coordination. Have a clear view of what external actors can help with and how to mobilise this assistance (e.g. army)
    • Identify additional potential external support staff from Xxx, have criteria and reference materials for when these persons would be needed. Assume that less-qualified staff may have to replace qualified staff that is out of duty.
    • Good, clear and brief training materials and capacity building for all stakeholders involved on safety, patient management, stock management etc. Staff needs to have been trained before the first cases are starting to appear in Xxx. Once cases appear it becomes very challenging to work on capacity building.
    • Clear plans on how to deal with different phases that the emergency will go through, and criteria for when transitioning from one mode to the other occurs.

     

    Has coordination taken place in the entire teams so that all experience, knowledge and capacity currently present in your teams has been considered, so that the response teams can be as effective as possible, so that collaborative teams with a common vision and sense of urgency and dedication have been formed? Have the teams been empowered enough and on time, and have they been involved so that all know what the situation is and feel part of the process? These issues are critical in an effective emergency response.

     

    Transitioning the organization to the emergency will be challenging and take time, and needs a fundamental change in mindset and adaptation of all involved. Once cases start to be there the possibility to set up untested systems becomes much more limited. Therefore you’ll need to have these elements up-and-running when the first cases start to appear in Xxx.

     

    Fail to plan, and you plan to fail. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst. It is important to understand that preparing adequately for the worst-case scenario and ending up with only a few Corona cases is a much better than underestimating the scale it can take or opting for the ‘wait and see’ approach, and have a full-blown emergency where control over the situation is lost. Take it from someone with experience in emergency response, you want to aim for the first, and avoid the second at all price…

     

    Some final words

    Looking at other countries it looks likely that a similar scenario as the one sketched here will play out. The type of impact that this epidemic could potentially have on society is similar to that of a war situation. This also should be the mindset of all involved. In an emergency, adopting the right mindset is critical, and very difficult for many.

     

    To quote Michael Ryan from the WHO on working in a medical emergency (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWBpTzj-_eQ) at 28:55.

    Be fast, have no regrets. You must be the first mover… You need to be prepared… If you need to be right before you move, you will never win. Perfection is the enemy of the good when it comes to emergency management; speed trumps perfection.

    The problem we have in society at the moment is that everyone is afraid to make a mistake. Everyone is afraid of the consequence of error. But the greatest error is not to move. The greatest error is to be paralysed by the fear of failure

     

    In the end only results and outcomes will count. How will Xxx be judged at the end of this? Did we do what needed to be done and when it needed to be done?

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 12:55am

    #14

    gyrogearloose

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Sep 08 2008

    Posts: 357

    1

    NZ lockdown

    Day 1 nearly over.

    basics. Stay at home unless going for food or medicine.

    People in mobile homes etc must stay where they are. ( but many appeared to be flouting that today, but police are now chasing them...)

    Only supermarkets, petrol stations, vets and pharmacies open

    Only people working in critical supply chain allowed to go to work.

    All  people in lock-down will receive a level of government money if they can't work from home.

    283 cases but roughly only 15? locally infected cases, some of which are partners of returned travelers who had it

    Returning travelers still the bulk of the cases.

    People still returning but put into isolation.

    Many people can no longer get back despite trying.

     

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 1:30am

    #15

    AKGrannyWGrit

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2011

    Posts: 1052

    5

    Chris Rebut This?

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 1:51am

    #16
    NicolaHNZ

    NicolaHNZ

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jan 28 2020

    Posts: 19

    2

    How to decontaminate your shopping

    Hi all

    I’m still relatively new so still traveling through all the info. This video is doing the rounds and I found it quite helpful for when I might need to go to the supermarket.

    Re the 17 day CDC comment-I referred him back here to take a look at the video which talks to this.

    In NZ, it was day 1 of lockdown - most people doing what they should, but pockets who still just don’t get it. My friend works in the emergency call centre. She said, ”Here is just a snippet of my day... incensed, that we are just not getting it... families turning up in car loads for a social bbq... 60’s women’s walking group 15+ ... laughing when asked to move on... total lack of social distancing... an officer being spat on... someone calling up to ask if they can move to another address, cause they don’t like their partner/family/ girlfriend/ flatmate.... suck it up princess for 4 weeks!! Unbelievable day, and not in a good way 🤬😢🤬😢🤬

    Here’s my new moto Stay the f**k at home !!”

    Here’s hoping tomorrow is a better day.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 2:27am

    thatchmo

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Dec 13 2008

    Posts: 252

    2

    12 Monkeys

    Wow Granny, that's a good find.  I only got through less than half, but my evening's sleep will be troubled.....Folks, check out that vid!   Aloha, Steve.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 2:46am

    #18
    planfortomorrow

    planfortomorrow

    Status: Member

    Joined: Dec 28 2017

    Posts: 182

    0

    Arrrgggghhhhh....

    Hey Chris, you are slamming it, killing it so cool. I have to say, I never pick on anyone for spelling or things like that. It usually happens because your three words ahead of typing and words get integrated. Now, since this bugs you and you brought lite to this and I follow everything you've ever said I am now conditioned to see the errors or spelling and such. The one thing that you say that drives me absolutely nuts is Exponential that you say is Expodential. I really don't care, I don't but, its annoying. Just take the time and pronounce it Expo (N) nential instead of adding a "D" where the "N" is. I believe it was yesterdays report that you had to say it 10 times!!!! OK, said my piece, if you change fine if you don't who really cares but I believe you do. For gosh sakes don't tell me it's trivial, you're tired or you had food stuck in your teeth, just Man up and STOP!!! It's like nails across a chalk board now. If you do this I'll admit I'm a bit tired of all the work spent in my day doing more work than I ever anticipated. We have two very bad situations in our world, the Virus and the real possibility of a Great Depression and this requires absolute focus and determination plus I'm building a Log Cabin and taking care of my Lady who is front and center in this Virus as she now heads an over 70 bed from just 8 beds a week ago of Coronavirus victims ago, and plans on making the entire hospital dedicated to the Virus plus the expansion of ICU to handle the very serious cases. I started on this Virus real early, even advised my wife to ask what the hospital was doing to prepare for this virus back in December and early January. I don't know shit but I have nailed this early and it was so nice that my world entered my Lady's world and she has been way ahead of this at the hospital. Our conversations have been awesome as I can participate and offer meaningful critiques to help keep her safe and our conversations are being shared at the hospital with great relevancy and that's great. We even stashed n95 masks here at home from the hospital because I told her it is crucial you have them when needed. I was right. She took back over 250 masks after I snatched a few for myself. This virus was an easy one to predict and prevent and it upsets me, a decorator/painter and remodeler that I seen this months ago. Much LOVE and Peace

     

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 2:53am

    #19
    VTGothic

    VTGothic

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jan 05 2020

    Posts: 333

    4

    2 Core "Victory Garden" Concepts

    1. You can survive on these 5 foods
    Corn
    Beans
    Squash
    Potatoes
    Eggs

    Together, they provide all the essential nutrients and protein. They also store well for winter.
    Source

    2. Every yard can become a permaculture food forest. A food forest is a "plan B" supply of foodstuffs - great for times of crisis when grocery stores are empty, or when one's job evaporates, or when the annual garden doesn't produce well.
    Source

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 3:43am

    #20

    sand_puppy

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 2470

    13

    Plausible Mechanism for Chloroquine Benefits

    A problem with accepting a new idea (like chloroquine improves COVID lung injury) is to have a plausible mechanism of action.  Found one!  This short paper from 2003 explores the potential role for chloroquine / hydroxychloroquine in reducing the replication of several viruses, including SARS specifically.

    Figure 1 shows the General Process of Viral Replication. Bigger picture here.

    Picture 2 shows where chloroquine inhibits the inflammatory cytokine, TNF-alpha's production and signaling.  Bigger Pic here.

    From the text for the above figure:

    "Effects of chloroquine on the immune system. TNFα is produced by activated monocytes/macrophages.  TNF-alpha opens tight junctions between vascular endothelial cells [causing "leaky blood vessels"].  Chloroquine diminishes TNFα production ... decreases [fluid and inflammatory white blood cell] extravasation."

    It seems plausible that this leaky blood vessels mechanism is the source of the inflammatory proteinaceious exudates and cells observed to collect in lung alveoli with post COVID pneumonia/ARDS.

    This microscopic picture of lung tissue is from an article in Journal of Thoracic Oncology showing the flooding of the alveoli with a thick "jello-like" fluid and inflammatory cells.  Follow the link to find bigger pictures.

    ---------

    Plausible mechanism for severe lung inflammatory reaction after COVID Infx (continued)

    "The anti-inflammatory properties of chloroquine/hydroxychloroquine should also be considered. The clinical worsening of individuals with SARS in week 2 is apparently unrelated to uncontrolled SARS coronavirus replication but may be related to immunopathological damage.

    A model taking into account the role of proinflammatory cytokines could help interpret this event (figure 3). This view is derived from the effects of the porcine respiratory coronavirus (PRCV), which shares with the SARS coronavirus the ability to cause a disease with similar histopathological features and symptomatology.  PRCV induces severe lung damage through immune-mediated mechanisms—ie, probably through an increase in the concentrations of proinflammatory cytokines such as TNFα and interleukin 6, whose role in inducing lung damage has been proved using adenoviral vectors in animal models.

    Bigger view here

    My preliminary conclusion is that there is indeed a plausible mechanism by which hydroxychloroquine could attenuate the inflammatory damage to lung tissue after a SARS2 infection.

    (I have not looked into the zinc ionophore aspect and cannot comment on this.)

    I'm eager to see more information!

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 4:35am

    Oliveoilguy

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Jun 29 2012

    Posts: 853

    4

    12 monkeys?

    I watched the first 20 minutes (time triage is necessary for me right now). The assumption that government wants lockdown and control seems counter to Trumps efforts to unlock our society. Secondly...the model they use through 2021 with the recurring waves of sickness and lockdown seems somewhat static. There is no adjustment for Pharmaceutical interventions....I don’t know ...but I am optimistic that the new 45 minute test coming online and some treatments like Chloroquine will make a positive difference. Sandpuppy just wrote an excellent article on Chloroquine. Things like that would change the shape of their chart.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 4:45am

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2251

    1

    hydroxychloroquine + zinc: mechanism of action

    May have been posted before - medcram video talking about how hydroxychloroquine and zinc together act to stop replication of the virus.  This is another potential "mechanism of action" for hydroxychloroquine.

    1) zinc inhibits coronavirus replication

    2) chloroquine is a zinc ionophore - it allows zinc to enter the cell

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7F1cnWup9M

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 6:37am

    #23
    Mahalopamala

    Mahalopamala

    Status: Member

    Joined: Aug 12 2017

    Posts: 5

    1

    Mahalopamala said:

    Wonderful update as always! I am learning so much everyday. Wanted to share that I am sharing the 8 types of resilience with my family and friends and giving examples of what we are actually doing. I really enjoy and applaud the wonderful pictures Peak Prosperity subscribers here behind the paywall are sharing! YAHOO!!! Embracing TRUTH! Best to you all 🙂

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 7:11am

    #24
    HodgePodge

    HodgePodge

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 31 2017

    Posts: 11

    3

    Chris-What is the "all clear"signal?

    Before the Powers To Be come out with misleading information, what is the real "all clear " signal? I'm betting it's way down the backside of the curve. What say you?

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 7:25am

    #25

    thc0655

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 27 2010

    Posts: 2130

    6

    In these difficult times, some cuts may be necessary

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 8:00am

    kleymo

    kleymo

    Status: Member

    Joined: Apr 28 2012

    Posts: 37

    3

    language police (sorry)

    Chris, as everyone else is, I am grateful for your videos and work. It has helped my family be more prepared.

     

     

    I am an ESL teacher and am an examiner for a test (IELTS) of English ability. I listen to people professionally every day and evaluate their English.

     

    Two things I consistently hear you do are: making "data" a singular noun, and using "less" when "fewer" should be used for countable nouns.

     

    I believe that using "data" with the singular may have a negative impact on the scientific community in the room.

     

    The "less" instead of "fewer" - [sigh]. Likely the main reason for catabolic collapse:)

     

    I make these two points because there is pretty much nothing else you do wrong with your English. Quite difficult under such circumstances.

     

    Again, thank you for your work, and the same to Jason and Adam.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 8:13am

    Zippy

    Zippy

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    Joined: Mar 09 2020

    Posts: 2

    0

    2 Gallon Bucket Question

    Are the 2 gallon buckets large enough for pepper plants?  I have been using 5 gallon buckets for 6 years. They are deteriorating and this is probably their last year before replacing. It would help if I could go smaller on these. We are in NW Arkansas on a ridge with no soil, so we are also using raised beds.  Thanks in advance!!

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 8:22am

    #28
    Petey1

    Petey1

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    Joined: Sep 13 2012

    Posts: 21

    1

    3.5 gallon buckets

    I am trying these buckets.  A little more room to grow yet still easier to move around.

     

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Argee-3-5-gal-White-Bucket-10-Pack-RG503-10/207004209

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 8:46am

    #29

    sand_puppy

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 2470

    2

    Hydroxychloroquine having "good effect" on COVID in Bahrain

    Covid-19: Bahrain one of the first in the world to use hydroxychloroquine for treatment
    The Kingdom of Bahrain is one of the first in the world to administer hydroxychloroquine to treat active Covid-19 cases, says the country's Supreme Council of Health chairman Lieutenant-General Dr Shaikh Mohamed Abdullah Al Khalifa.

    According to the news report, the drug is reported to have had a profound impact when used to treat the symptoms exhibited by active Covid-19 cases.

    Dr Shaikh Mohamed said the compound was administered in line with treatment regimens that have seen success in China and South Korea.

    --------------

    There are also trials of HC in Belgium.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 8:53am

    #30

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 806

    4

    Bucket Size

    Are the 2 gallon buckets large enough for pepper plants?

    I haven't grown anything big in 2gallon buckets, so I'm not sure. If you are going to keep the plant over Winter you'd want something big.

    Here's one plant I grew a few years back:

    I usually take out a bit of soil and recharge the bucket with some compost when I replant. If you pull the top bucket out (in my two bucket system) you can see just how extensive the root system develops in these.

    I am trying these buckets.  A little more room to grow yet still easier to move around.

    Good find. I'll have to pick some of those up.

    The problem with 5 gallon buckets wasn't the weight of soil. It was the weight of the soil that was wet. I'm too old to lug those around too far.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 9:00am

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1219

    4

    Thank you SandPuppy

    The question of how best to use hydroxychloroquine remains and we don't seem to be able to get the true story from mass media.. so I appreciate your helping us to further develop the picture.  Did you see the link posted in MarkM's response at the end of the LogansRun thread?  It purports to be written by another ER Doc., and it contains this specific discussion of chloroquine;

     

    Treatment
    Supportive

    worldwide 86% of covid 19 patients that go on a vent die. Seattle reporting 70%. Our hospital has had 5 deaths and one patient who was extubated. Extubation happens on day 10 per the Chinese and day 11 per Seattle.

    Plaquenil which has weak ACE2 blockade doesn’t appear to be a savior of any kind in our patient population. Theoretically, it may have some prophylactic properties but so far it is difficult to see the benefit to our hospitalized patients, but we are using it and the studies will tell. With Plaquenil’s potential QT prolongation and liver toxic effects (both particularly problematic in covid 19 patients), I am not longer selectively prescribing this medication as I stated on a previous post.

    We are also using Azithromycin, but are intermittently running out of IV.

    Do not give these patient’s standard sepsis fluid resuscitation. Be very judicious with the fluids as it hastens their respiratory decompensation. Outside the DKA and renal failure dehydration, leave them dry.

    Proning vented patients significantly helps oxygenation. Even self proning the ones on nasal cannula helps.

    Vent settings- Usual ARDS stuff, low volume, permissive hypercapnia, etc. Except for Peep of 5 will not do. Start at 14 and you may go up to 25 if needed.

    Do not use Bipap- it does not work well and is a significant exposure risk with high levels of aerosolized virus to you and your staff. Even after a cough or sneeze this virus can aerosolize up to 3 hours.

    The same goes for nebulizer treatments. Use MDI. you can give 8-10 puffs at one time of an albuterol MDI. Use only if wheezing which isn’t often with covid 19. If you have to give a nebulizer must be in a negative pressure room; and if you can, instruct the patient on how to start it after you leave the room.

    Do not use steroids, it makes this worse. Push out to your urgent cares to stop their usual practice of steroid shots for their URI/bronchitis.

    We are currently out of Versed, Fentanyl, and intermittently Propofol. Get the dosing of Precedex and Nimbex back in your heads.

    One of my colleagues who is a 31 yo old female who graduated residency last may with no health problems and normal BMI is out with the symptoms and an SaO2 of 92%. She will be the first of many.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 9:48am

    Linda T

    Linda T

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    Joined: Jun 09 2014

    Posts: 132

    3

    RE: 2 gallon buckets

    Zippy,

    Some plants develop good size root balls, I suspect 2 gallon buckets might not be big enough for most plants and they could get root bound. If they do get root bound, it can then inhibit further growth, some plants don't like being root bound and can die (it can also affect their health such as resistance to pests and diseases), and if you happen to place the pot right on top of the soil, the roots will resume growing and attach to the soil. Years ago I had a plant do that (before I started using the plant trays UPSIDE DOWN) and I had wanted to move it to a different spot. As I picked it up I actually heard the roots rip apart. I felt horrible. You may wonder why I said upside down for the trays, depending upon how much you water the plant(s) in addition to any rainfall water will collect and problems can arise if you don't dump that water after each watering. Most plants don't like "wet feet" (the roots) and can drown, roots do need some space for oxygen, it's harder to gauge if the plant really needs watering, and after a few days of standing water I've read that it can be a breeding zone for mosquitos. And, if you don't use trays to slow and possibly stop earthworms from migrating into the pots, they can possibly go after the smaller roots. Since the soil in pots don't have anywhere near, if any at all, the same amount of microbial life as the soil in raised beds or garden plots. I've read that it's not such a great idea to fill up pots with soil from the ground.  It's too heavy and is likely to get compacted, and other sciencey reasons that I don't remember right now (working on my first cup of coffee...). One thing I just thought of, sort of getting off the topic of pots, but not, if the soil is too compacted if affects the root zone because they need some oxygen and it's easier for the roots to grow which is why when placing plants into a pot or the ground you're just supposed to lightly press the soil down and "water in place" to remove larger air pockets.

    Also, if it's very windy in your area, the plants can get blown over, breaking branches.

    Linda

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 10:06am

    #33
    AbbeyJane

    AbbeyJane

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    Joined: Mar 20 2020

    Posts: 1

    5

    Germany’s statistics

    This is conjecture on my part. Germany has medical freedom. It was written into their constitution after World War II. What it means is that any doctor can provide any patient with any treatment as long as the patient and the doctor agree. So, while alternative or complementary treatments are not mainstream in Germany, and are not covered by insurance, they are much more available in Germany than here in the US. These include things like medical ozone, and high dose IV vitamin C that can be used to improve the outcome of viral infection. My hope is that at least some of Germany’s lower death rate may be due to people utilizing these treatments.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 10:11am

    #34

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 806

    1

    Chart For Stats By US States

    Here's a good one to add to Chris' video presentations.

    https://www.vox.com/2020/3/26/21193848/coronavirus-us-cases-deaths-tests-by-state

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 10:18am

    Linda T

    Linda T

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jun 09 2014

    Posts: 132

    3

    2 Core "Victory Garden" Concepts, should add another core concept

    VT Gothic,

    I also use permaculture principles (using perennial plants in addition to annuals when and where I can), companion planting, crop rotation, etc. But, I also practice food preservation. I have had an Exalibur electric dehydrator for over 10 years now, once I dehydrate what I don't use immediately, gets placed into bags, then 5 gallon food grade buckets with gamma seals on them, and I tape a small piece of paper onto it with the year and contents written with a pencil. (I learned it's easier for me to change the label with a pencil that way and keep reusing it as well.) Each year I rotate the buckets, usually using 2 per year sometimes 3 if my plants were especially happy and it was a good year..., contents get combined from 2 buckets slowly into one. I have shared with roommates over the years bags in addition to meals. (Some haven't been big veggie fans tho.). Kale, tomatoes, squash, beans, chives, the blueberries and peas usually get eaten fresh, but I have also done bananas, apples, scrambled eggs when I had chickens, and jerky too.

    Linda

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 10:38am

    #36

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1219

    2

    Treating to lower fever may negatively impact immune function - latest MedCram video

    We may want to let the fever burn in case of Covid-19;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4eu-h_owaI

     

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 10:42am

    Linda T

    Linda T

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jun 09 2014

    Posts: 132

    1

    Chart For Stats By US States

    dtrammel,

    I did like seeing the stats on the number of tests done per state, but since I'm on worldometers often, I discovered I can get to US stats and the states by clicking on "USA", but here's the direct link:

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

    Holy shit, I just refreshed the screen, globally we're over 500,00 cases now. At 9AM it was at 494,880, now it's 510,928. And,

    Country,
    Other

    Total
    Cases

    New
    Cases

    Total
    Deaths

    New
    Deaths

    China
    81,285
    +67
    3,287
    +6

    Italy
    80,539
    +6,153
    8,165
    +662

     USA
    75,665
    +7,454
    1,100
    +73

    Both Italy and the US are so close to China now (even though China's true numbers are ???). Not the kind of "race" I would want to be "winning", it just shows we haven't taken the steps in order to flatten the curves... My roommate and I were chatting yesterday about exponential growth, and for every one of those numbers and the numbers of deaths are people connected to them... At some point since just about every country and territory has a case, the collective trauma and PTSD will be such a breathtaking  tragedy, and it didn't have to be this way... Quoting Chris.

    Linda

     

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 11:07am

    #38
    kron

    kron

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 10 2008

    Posts: 10

    0

    Interview with epidemiologist Dr. Ian Lipkin

    Must watch on the Dr Oz show today.  3.26.20

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 11:16am

    kron

    kron

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    Joined: Mar 10 2008

    Posts: 10

    0

    here's the link to the interview

    https://www.doctoroz.com/episode/covid-19-pandemic-how-long-should-us-stay-lockdown-infected-virus-hunters-warning?video_id=6144918421001

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 11:17am

    #40
    Bren

    Bren

    Status: Member

    Joined: Feb 27 2020

    Posts: 19

    4

    Did 'they' finally show their hand?

    Hello guys,

    I am not one to immediately fan the flames of conspiracies, but I still permit the possibility for their occurence if palpable evidence arises...

    Exhibit A?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/26/gordon-brown-calls-for-global-government-to-tackle-coronavirus

    The temporary seems suspect when delivered by a politician.

    May your gardens be deemed grandiose in the Summer sun,

    Bren

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 11:30am

    lmcdel

    lmcdel

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    Joined: Jul 12 2012

    Posts: 24

    0

    Dr Oz

    thanks. Is there some way for people without TVs to watch this later on the internet?

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 11:32am

    #42
    lmcdel

    lmcdel

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jul 12 2012

    Posts: 24

    1

    Best practices - share with health care workers

    I don’t see where to start a new forum topic on my phone, so sharing here. From a fellow alum in my nationwide business school network:

    ——One of my firm’s portfolio companies (www.ID.me) launched a shared workspace in partnership with slack exclusively for healthcare providers (doctors, nurses, etc.) so they can share best practices on the pandemic. In the first few days they have over 1,500 healthcare professionals sharing info/best practices. Thought it would be useful to this topic and vice-versa. Please share with healthcare professionals.

     

    Workspace: https://covid.slack.com/

    Article on the effort: https://insights.id.me/press/id-me-launches-covid-19-real-time-collaboration-workspace-on-slack/

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 11:35am

    #43
    Linda T

    Linda T

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jun 09 2014

    Posts: 132

    3

    Treating to lower fever may negatively impact immune function - latest MedCram video

    Jim H,

    Thank you, I just finished watching that Medcram video. A week ago I watched on Youtube a two part series on fever from Dr. John Campbell. I know some people have commented here that they don't watch him much after he hadn't vetted someone... But putting the Medcram video together with Campbell's two videos in which he breaks down the body's natural and deliberate process, using a fever as a defense mechanism. He went through pyrexia(another word for fever), cytokines, hypothalamus, pyrogens, shivering, interferons, anti-viral enzymes, lymphocytes, antibodies, phagocytes, neutrophils, monocytes, macrophages, etc. and all need pyrexial temperatures to occur more efficiently and quickly. Putting them together I'm definitely leaning towards not taking advil, tylenol, etc.

    "Reducing fever, good or bad":

    "Reducing fever, part 2":

    Linda

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 11:40am

    #44
    kron

    kron

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    Joined: Mar 10 2008

    Posts: 10

    0

    a clear example of how covid 19 spreads

    https://www.newsday.com/news/health/coronavirus/peconic-landing-1.43439099

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 11:41am

    Linda T

    Linda T

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jun 09 2014

    Posts: 132

    0

    Dr. OZ

    I would try Youtube first. Last week when both the mayor of Portland Oregon & the governor had a press conference, I found it on Youtube, I don't remember but maybe half an hour or one hour later?

    Linda

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 12:37pm

    VTGothic

    VTGothic

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jan 05 2020

    Posts: 333

    1

    Re: Victory Garden

    Linda, it sounds like you dehydrate the way my mother always did!

    I also have the Excaliber. Love it. But I don't dehydrate veggies so much - I don't particularly care for dried/reconstituted vegetables, and I have enough (from mom - they were always included in birthday and Christmas packages!) for a couple apocalypses. But I make lots of jerky and fruit leathers.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 12:54pm

    drbrucedale

    drbrucedale

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    Joined: Sep 06 2009

    Posts: 130

    0

    Thanks for the video

    I just watched this video and shared it on Facebook. Excellent contribution to our discussion here. Thanks!

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 12:59pm

    Linda T

    Linda T

    Status: Member

    Joined: Jun 09 2014

    Posts: 132

    2

    RE: dehydrating

    VT Gothic,

    I understand, and with experimentation (for me) I discovered the trick is to rehydrate them and give them plenty of time stewing in a crockpot long enough (especially squash), or on the stove.

    Linda

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 1:28pm

    #49

    sofistek

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Oct 02 2008

    Posts: 775

    0

    Face masks and most public health experts

    From a Scientific American article:

    Most public health experts agree that the general public should not routinely wear facemasks. It’s not helpful...

    Sheesh! No examination of the arguments at all, though the article, to be fair, was not specifically about the efficacy of face masks.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 1:32pm

    #50
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 838

    1

    The denial by media and authorities alike, continues - they will be in for a shock

    I am so tired of hearing how the CFR is on this.  Now they are citing what I stated would be our best sample.  The diamond princess.  However,  I am positive they are hiding deaths from that. Because virtual all of the deaths were reported almost in the first week after they were released. AND the course of illness is much longer.  If they are not hiding it,  Then it is as I stated in about 5 other posts.  These people are celebrity status, all the stops will be pulled out for treatment and with exceptional treatment , i believe - the CFR is only 1%.   But without treatment , you have something like 10-15%..  I am not sure these people understand - medically assisted disease CFR and no interaction CFR.     I want to see all the people who were infected on the DP and how many were hospitalized... As we know this is 1% with the flu//  So.. are you telling me that the DP hospitalization rate was 7 people ?   yeah we have 10 dead./ so how is this not in itself 15 times the flu?     And that is with exceptional infront of media and world healthcare.. What happens with no hospital intervention.. I'd bet there were at least 25% if not 35% of the DP that were hospitalized./ please share those simple numbers that are available.. Why are they not provided?  can anyone see if they can get this?

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 1:37pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 838

    0

    DT- regarding the funny grow light story

    Yes, when i bought mine - nothing but reviews and pictures with their pot plants.   It seems that only people need these if growing pot.  Like you cant need to grow stuff because of lack of sun.. which I have where I am in the armpit of US - with the gulf rain maker.  Also,  I have tried some potted tomatoes on my deck.. where i would move them to shoot through the clouds and little sun.. but the squirrels and raccoons would roll those just before they were ready to pick.. So, its indoor for me -- or no food.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 2:20pm

    yagasjai

    yagasjai

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    Joined: Apr 18 2009

    Posts: 125

    0

    Type of Plastic for Containers

    I like seeing the discussion about container gardening, although I have heard that you need to be careful what kind of plastic you use to plant food in, because certain plastics leech chemicals into the soil and the plant. Any thoughts on which types of plastic buckets to use or avoid? I assume food grade plastic buckets are ok, the kind you use for storage would also be ok to plant in. I've never planted in plastic buckets, but I have used galvanized stainless steel garbage cans filled with soil and compost, so as to have less bending over and room for deep roots. Not as easy to move, though.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 2:41pm

    #53
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 838

    1

    Who chooses who lives or dies? Ethics in an overwhelmed medical system

    Its very sad what is happening in Italy,  This, I am sure is beginning to happen in the US..
    Its very sad-- please read.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-ethics-speci/special-report-all-is-well-in-italy-triage-and-lies-for-virus-patients-idUSKBN2133KG

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 2:49pm

    #54

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 806

    0

    German Numbers - Early Testing?

    NPR had an article on the lack of Germany numbers which implied that the low numbers are the result of very early and aggressive testing. Something like 120,000 a week. Wow that's how to do it.

    I did suspect one thing. Apparently each of the federal regions in Germany have independent health jurisdiction. No CDC level group, so the reaction has been different fro each region. I wonder has this fractured nature affects reporting.

    https://www.npr.org/2020/03/25/820595489/why-germanys-coronavirus-death-rate-is-far-lower-than-in-other-countries

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 2:57pm

    #55
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 838

    3

    I have a solution for the people in denial

    I'll tell you what,  all those that say its nothing, just the flu, step forward for inoculation, bring your whole family, and sign that you will not take my antibiotics, saline IV, hospital bed, vent, etc....  - u should have no issue, its just a flu.. it doesnt kill healthy normal people

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 4:14pm

    ao

    ao

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Feb 04 2009

    Posts: 1389

    5

    well that escalated quickly

    I didn't think my prediction would come true this quickly.  It's not even the weekend yet.

    Fear not, all is well.  The stock market is telling us so.  Nothing to worry about here.  Record unemployment claims but the market rejoices.  We live in an age of ignorance and insanity.

     

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 4:18pm

    #57

    sand_puppy

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 2470

    11

    Report from ED Doctor outside New Orleans

    Sent to me by another ER doc in Richmond, VA.

    I am an ER MD in New Orleans. Class of 98. Every one of my colleagues have now seen several hundred Covid 19 patients and this is what I think I know.

    Clinical course is predictable.
    2-11 days after exposure (day 5 on average) flu like symptoms start. Common are fever, headache, dry cough, myalgias (back pain), nausea without vomiting, abdominal discomfort with some diarrhea, loss of smell, anorexia, fatigue.

    Day 5 of symptoms- increased SOB, and bilateral viral pneumonia from direct viral damage to lung parenchyma.

    Day 10- Cytokine storm leading to acute ARDS and multi-system organ failure. You can literally watch it happen in a matter of hours.

    • 81% mild symptoms,

    • 14% severe symptoms requiring hospitalization,
    • 5% critical.

    Patient presentation is varied. Patients are coming in hypoxic (even 75%) without dyspnea.  [This is very unusual!]   I have seen Covid patients present with encephalopathy, renal failure from dehydrationDKA. I have seen the bilateral interstitial pneumonia on the xray of the asymptomatic shoulder dislocation or on the CT's of the (respiratory) asymptomatic polytrauma patient. Essentially if they are in my ER, they have it. Seen three positive flu swabs in 2 weeks and all three had Covid 19 as well. Somehow this *** has told all other disease processes to get out of town.

    China reported 15% cardiac involvement. I have seen covid 19 patients present with myocarditis, pericarditis, new onset Heart Failure and new onset atrial fibrillation.  I still order a troponin, but no cardiologist will treat no matter what the number in a suspected Covid 19 patient. Even our non covid 19 STEMIs at all of our facilities are getting TPA in the ED and rescue PCI at 60 minutes only if TPA fails.

    Diagnostic
    CXR- bilateral interstitial pneumonia (anecdotally starts most often in the RLL so bilateral on CXR is not required). The hypoxia does not correlate with the CXR findings. Their lungs do not sound bad.   Keep your stethoscope in your pocket and evaluate with your eyes and pulse ox.

    Labs- WBC low, Lymphocytes low [lymphopenia], platelets lower then their normal, Procalcitonin [a marker of bacterial infection] is normal in 95%
    CRP and Ferritin elevated most often. CPK, D-Dimer, LDH, Alk Phos /AST/ALT commonly elevated.
    Notice D-Dimer- I would be very careful about CT PE these patients for their hypoxia. The patients receiving IV contrast are going into renal failure and on the vent sooner.

    Basically, if you have a bilateral pneumonia with normal to low WBC, lymphopenia, normal procalcitonin, elevated CRP and ferritin- you have covid-19 and do not need a nasal swab to tell you that.

    [SP note--So you can see here how the statistics will be far lower than the actual cases as PCR testing is being skipped much of the time now.]

    A ratio of absolute neutrophil count to absolute lymphocyte count greater than 3.5 may be the highest predictor of poor outcome. The UK is automatically intubating these patients for expected outcomes regardless of their clinical presentation.  [SP--Normally the neutrophils and lymphocytes are about equal in number.  So this ratio >3.5 says the lymphocyte count is REALLY really low.]

    An elevated Interleukin-6 (IL6) is an indicator of their cytokine storm. If this is elevated watch these patients closely with both eyes.

    Other factors that appear to be predictive of poor outcomes are thrombocytopenia [low platelet counts] and liver function tests [LFTs] 5x upper limit of normal.

    Disposition
    I had never discharged multifocal pneumonia before. Now I personally do it 12-15 times a shift. 2 weeks ago we were admitting anyone who needed supplemental oxygen. Now we are discharging with oxygen if the patient is comfortable and oxygenating above 92% on nasal cannula. We have contracted with a company that sends a paramedic to their home twice daily to check on them and record a pulse ox. We know many of these patients will bounce back but if it saves a bed for a day we have accomplished something. Obviously we are fearful some won't make it back.

    We are a small community hospital. Our 22 bed ICU and now a 4 bed Endoscopy suite are all Covid 19. All of these patients are intubated except one. 75% of our floor beds have been cohorted into covid 19 wards and are full. We are averaging 4 rescue intubations a day on the floor. We now have 9 vented patients being "held" in our ER transferred down from the floor after intubation [because there are no critical care beds for them].

    Luckily we are part of a larger hospital group. Our main teaching hospital repurposed space to open 50 new Covid 19 ICU beds this past Sunday so these numbers are with significant decompression. Today those 50 beds are full.  They are opening 30 more by Friday. But even with the "lockdown", our AI models are expecting a 200-400% increase in covid 19 patients by 4/4/2020.

    -----------

    Jim H and MarkM posted the second part of this essay already.  But I'll do it again as stuff is hard to find in these threads.

    -----------

    Treatment
    Supportive

    worldwide 86% of covid 19 patients that go on a vent dieSeattle reporting 70%.  Our hospital has had 5 deaths and one patient who was extubated.  Extubation happens on day 10 per the Chinese and day 11 per Seattle.

    Plaquenil which has weak ACE2 blockade doesn't appear to be a savior of any kind in our patient population. Theoretically, it may have some prophylactic properties but so far it is difficult to see the benefit to our hospitalized patients, but we are using it and the studies will tell. With Plaquenil's potential QT prolongation and liver toxic effects (both particularly problematic in covid 19 patients), I am not longer selectively prescribing this medication as I stated on a previous post.

    We are also using Azithromycin, but are intermittently running out of IV.

    Do not give these patient's standard sepsis fluid resuscitation. Be very judicious with the IV fluids [commonly given for sepsis] as it hastens their respiratory decompensation.  Outside the DKA and renal failure dehydration, leave them dry.

    Proning vented patients significantly helps oxygenation. Even self proning the ones on nasal cannula helps.  [Have people lie face down.]

    Vent settings- Usual ARDS stuff, low volume, permissive hypercapnia, etc. Except for Peep of 5 will not do. Start at PEEP of 14 and you may go up to 25 if needed.

    Do not use BiPAP- it does not work well and is a significant exposure risk with high levels of aerosolized virus to you and your staff. Even after a cough or sneeze this virus can aerosolize up to 3 hours.

    Do not use nebulizer treatments. Use MDI. you can give 8-10 puffs at one time of an albuterol MDI.  Use only if wheezing which isn't often with covid 19.  If you have to give a nebulizer must be in a negative pressure room; and if you can, instruct the patient on how to start it after you leave the room.

    Do not use steroids, it makes this worse. Push out to your urgent cares to stop their usual practice of steroid shots for their URI/bronchitis.

    We are currently out of Versed, Fentanyl, and intermittently Propofol. Get the dosing of Precedex and Nimbex back in your heads.

    One of my colleagues who is a 31 yo old female who graduated residency last May with no health problems and normal BMI is out with the symptoms and an SaO2 of 92%. She will be the first of many.

    I PPE best I have. I do wear a MaxAir PAPR the entire shift. I do not take it off to eat or drink during the shift.  I undress in the garage and go straight to the shower.  My wife and kids fled to her parents outside Hattiesburg.  The stress and exposure at work coupled with the isolation at home is trying.  Everyone is scared; patients and employees. But we are the leaders of that emergency room. Be nice to your nurses and staff. Show by example how to tackle this crisis head on. Good luck to us all."

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 4:18pm

    ao

    ao

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    Joined: Feb 04 2009

    Posts: 1389

    3

    dtrammel, the portability of the buckets is a wonderful idea

    Unfortunately, it's also wonderful for not-so-neighborly neighbors or "visitors" who may come along, in the bucket gardener's absence, and "transplant" your garden into their garden.  I can foresee a scenario where this occurs.

     

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 4:21pm

    #59
    SingJo

    SingJo

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    Joined: Mar 23 2020

    Posts: 3

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    When will masks NOT be needed?

    Czech Republic citizens all wear masks - and that is good.  My question is - when will they be able to not wear masks?

    I see this:  Boarders are Locked or Everyone in the country (at all times) wear masks until the curve is flaten.

    Those remaining with the virus recover or die.  The virus is defeated.

    If the country allows citizens to put away the masks - the Coronavirus needs to be defeated or  they  risk reintroduction of the virus and a repeat of the process to flatten the curve for round 2, round 3 etc.  --  is that right?

    If this is the pattern until a vaccine is developed, until a cure for the virus is found or as your graph showed in previous videos (the one with the bouncing balls)... we all get exposed at some time and develop immunity to the virus but that only comes from exposure, right?  Or would that also be achieved by vaccine?

    So I am thankful for Czech Republic and their proactive steps to protect their people.   They are leading the Westernern world with wearing masks.  When will they be able to not wear the masks?  Just wondering.

    Granted, it is beast to reduce the number of exposures and sickness - no argument.  I think we will wear masks for a long time...

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 4:26pm

    Linda T

    Linda T

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    Joined: Jun 09 2014

    Posts: 132

    3

    Re: type of plastic for containers

    yagasjai,

    Unfortunately, my first reply didn’t post, it disappeared into the ethers. So, I’m going to try and recreate it. (Second one wasn’t successful either, trying again, this time I copied and pasted from a Word document.)

    This is a dicey hot potato, and I thought about including it in my first comment this morning but was working on my first cup of coffee…

    Not a lot of good options, each has pros and cons. As far as using plastic, I would use food grade (begrudgingly am currently using four 5-gallon buckets for 2 Oregon grape and 2 peppermint plants, and have a few others I use for moving wood chips around & collecting stuff to put into my onsite compost pile), but, it’s still plastic. All of them are in various stages of breaking apart but they are approximately 10 years old. There are a few documentaries about plastic and the environment, and I have a DVD copy of one titled “A Plastic Ocean”. With plant and soil in them they aren’t too heavy for me to move around.

    Another option is stainless steel buckets which aren’t supposed to rust. But, I have some stainless steel clamps I use for keeping the plastic film from blowing away and defeating the purpose of having hoops for my hoophouses (I practice season extension on both ends), since both tomatoes and squash are heat-loving plants it gives them a head start… I have had to replace the clamps twice now, and once they start getting rust on them the spring part seizes up so they get harder and harder to use.

    https://theydiffer.com/difference-between-galvanized-and-stainless-steel/

    Interesting information, and after reading the differences I’m pretty sure my clamps are galvanized steel.

    https://www.reliance-foundry.com/blog/does-stainless-steel-rust

    Since I haven’t tried using stainless steel buckets for potatoes or anything else, I don’t have any personal experience with using them. But, something that occurred to me is due to leaching of nutrients from normal watering and rain and using fertilizers (hopefully organic) to replace them in addition to helping the plant grow, I don’t know if that would speed up the process of rust/corrosion.

    Another option would be to use quarter or half size oak or other wood barrels. But, they would be even heavier to move and would require either a dolly or additional people, or could they be tipped a bit and rolled to a new spot? If relocating to an entirely new property that could present a problem.

    That’s all I can think of right now.

    Since moving to Portland in 2011, I have had a 20’ by 20’ community garden plot for 6 going on 7 years now, use four 4’by 8’ raised beds with walkways between them, have an area in one corner for my medicinal plants and foraging plants for the bees, wasps, and flies to come, and 8 blueberry plants (I mulch them with pine needles and coffee grounds to help keep the PH lower).

    Linda

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 4:48pm

    #61
    Sparky1

    Sparky1

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    Joined: Jul 21 2016

    Posts: 753

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    Chris' newest video: "Bad Ideas = Worse Policy" (3/26/20)

    Coronavirus: The High Cost Of Being Wrong (3/26/20)

    https://youtu.be/7YN7aBiICz4

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 5:03pm

    Rachele1

    Rachele1

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    Joined: Mar 19 2020

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    Charts by States by US

    Well I knew it would not belong before we hit the #1 spot and at 4:00 p.m. PT we did.  For those of you that would like to confirm this please use the link in Linda T’s post.

    Since I trust no one I doubled checked with John C Lincoln as well as the CDC.  I’m wondering if anybody has any thoughts as to why the CDC is reporting such low numbers.  Other then of course to give Pres. Trump time to form a response as to how he was totally expecting this so soon and why no one should be worried.

    Http://www//coronavirus.jhu.edu

    Http://www//cdc.gov

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 5:19pm

    Mpup

    Mpup

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Mar 01 2020

    Posts: 92

    4

    Fabric pots for garden

    I've been using fabric pots for my garden.  They are available on Amazon. They have handles for ease of moving.  If taken care of and not ripped they will last usually 2-3 years.  The 5,7, and 10 gallon are good sizes.  Potatoes would do better in the 15 or 20 gallon. These pots work well.    I've got 8 varieties of tomatoes, cukes, eggplant, jalapeno, green, and red pepper.  Summer and zucchini squash, bush beans, lettuce, beets and a variety of herbs.  Been working hard getting it done.  Planted 50 onion sets today and two different varieties of watermelon.  I used to grow a large garden but planted citrus trees which have taken over the space.  Will be giving family, friends, and neighbors tomato, squash, green pepper and bush bean starts as I have way more than I can use.  Glad I found PP it got me in the planning mode early on in the pandemic.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 5:20pm

    #64
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Joined: Feb 03 2020

    Posts: 838

    1

    I want more meaningful numbers

    I know some of these numbers have to exist.    I want to know the case hospitalization rate.   This serious/critical is not what its supposed to be.. its a group of people at current. its not useful.   it doesnt tell you how many people where critical and how many required hospitalization..   That is all I want to know

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 5:20pm

    #65
    Mots

    Mots

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    Its all about behavioral change, wonder what Adam the psychologist has to say

    Behavioral change is a low cost, high liberty path to success at containing the honey badger at individual and community or nation level.   Consider two things from Chris's last video:

    1. wear masks wear masks wear masks wear masks.  If every possible corona honey badger victim or possible victim wore a cheap/simple/stupid mask in public and stopped coughing on others, and washed their hands once in a while, the R0 or infectivity rate would go down dramatically.  This is not rocket science but is the best advice from CM's last video.  The American government and medical institutions are horribly violating this simple requirement.  The lack of this behavior in America (where are the masks on the daily news briefers who are leading the people on how to get over this, for example?) keeps infectivity high while simultaneously enhancing free money flow to connected businesses and bankers and increased power to politicians.

    2. Japan started off with a bang but is not even on the charts.  With exception of no school, we have barely changed our lifestyles here, going out to restaurants and stores etc.  There is a reason for this.  Nobody shakes hands and hugs/kisses each other when greeting (even before birth of the badger).  Also as been practiced for many years, anyone who thought they might be infected with a cold bought a cheap mask at the drug store and wore it when in public.   And if you sneeze without using your clothing or going into a corner, you are kind of shunned.  Blowing your nose in public has always been very bad manners, almost as bad as taking a crap on a San Francisco street.
    About 10% of the people on subways during normal flu season always wore a mask for this reason.  And, hand sanitizers were available in front of many stores and restaurants.   Normally.  In response to flu season.  Before the Honey Badger was just a twinkling in a molecular biologist's eye.  Now, hand sanitizers and masks are even more prominent.  Department stores and supermarket workers have been wearing them as a sign of respect and welcome to customers.

    Transmission is a two step process.  Step 1: Spittle has to leave one person's pie hole and enter public territory.  Step 2: spittle (or what's left of it) has to leave public territory and enter another person's pie hole, eye, hand surface, food or whatever.   Step 1 is much much much much easier and much cheaper to eliminate.  This is the behavior change I refer to and the basic point I get from Chris's last video.

    Dont get me wrong, the honey badger is a serious problem here and the cases are growing, particularly in Tokyo.  Cases are under-tested and people are trying to work from home, and Tokyo likely will start a lockdown.  But public transport and most things have been barely affected despite an early invasion of the badger due to extreme incompetence of shi*head national politicians over-ruling health officials with the cruise ship.  Our local conspiracy expert James Corbett of Corbett report argues that the low cases in Japan is just PR from the government that wanted to keep the olympic dream alive for Tokyo this Summer.  But the total winter flu infections this year are also at a historic low, due to behavior changes.

     

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 5:22pm

    #66

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 806

    7

    Thoughts On Policy shifts and Unemployment Compensation

    A lot of media coverage speaks about how generous the unemployment compensation is in the new stimulus package. 4 months of $600 extra onto your state compensation.

    Something keeps bothering me though.

    If you push, like some politicians and corporate leaders have been lately that the virus isn't so bad and we should all go back to work, then when they reopen their companies and call you back to work IF you don't come back, then they can make the case that you are choosing to quit. Therefore you aren't unemployed due to the virus, you are unemployed by your own decision.

    In that case you aren't eligible for unemployment payments. That generous component of the stimulus package doesn't get spent then.

    The cynic in me is saying that this push to get the companies open again has a big component of "why should we pay you wage slaves for being too scared to work in our factories, even if you might get the virus".

    Of course business should still get THEIR stimulus. Just not us.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 5:27pm

    Linda T

    Linda T

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    Joined: Jun 09 2014

    Posts: 132

    1

    Re: dtrammel, the portability of the buckets is a wonderful idea

    ao,

    I completely agree, I've already have had it happen to me (2 years ago), and that was even before this black swan event. Another reason I no longer put veggies or easily recognized sought after plants in any of my plastic buckets. They can grow legs and walk away... I was especially pissed since they were ready to harvest! And they used one of my empty buckets to steal and carry away all of my corn cobs (were also ready) and some  zucchini too.

    Linda

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 5:30pm

    #68
    suziegruber

    suziegruber

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Dec 03 2008

    Posts: 203

    7

    Great Analogy About Covid-19 From Dave Matthews

    I'm watching a live stream of musician Dave Matthews he shared a great analogy to get people to pay attention to the seriousness of Covid-19.

    It goes like this.  You go to a party and there's a bowl of 100 M&Ms.  Eighty of the M&Ms in the bowl taste great, 16 of the M& Ms in the bowl will make you really, really sick and 4 of the M&Ms in the bowl will kill you.  How many of the M&Ms will you eat?

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 5:39pm

    #69

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 806

    2

    Garden Thievery

    Unfortunately, it’s also wonderful for not-so-neighborly neighbors or “visitors” who may come along, in the bucket gardener’s absence, and “transplant” your garden into their garden.  I can foresee a scenario where this occurs.

    Yeap, what the gardener giveth, the dishonest neighbor takeith away, lol.

    I live in an area of transent population. Its duplexes and apartments, mixed into the single family homes. There is a vacant home behind my duplex, which the kids have kicked down the fence separating their yard from mine. We're in the middle of the block so tearing the fence down allows people to make a shortcut and save time.

    I'm actually down a bit from the house, but people still make the cut and go thru my yard. When they do they walk right past my small garden. I've had ripe fruit and veggies taken as well as minor vandalism.

    So yes, growing stuff in container presents a risk.

    This past year, someone bought the home and put up a cedar fence closing off traffic but given the possibility of hungry people in the neighborhood, there is a chance that my garden may get hit.

    I'm a big fan of guerrilla gardening and using plants which don't look eatable. I need to identify more of them but one staple I grow alot of is Purslane.

    Its an ornamental for Americans but is a staple stir fry ingredient in Asia and added to foods in many other regions.

    I happened to pick up one plant as a flower for the local pollinators a few years back. They love it. It wasn't until I looked it up and found what a great food it was that I really started growing it. Its full of vitamins and supplementary minerals. You can even eat the flowers, lol.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3934766/

    It now one of my staple hanging basket plants and gets clipped to add to most of my meals. Its a succulent which means its moist and tasty, with a slight mustard tart taste. We would all be better off to identify plants which thieves don't recognize as food and plant those too.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 5:43pm

    #70
    planfortomorrow

    planfortomorrow

    Status: Member

    Joined: Dec 28 2017

    Posts: 182

    3

    Coronavirus...

    Barb has 89 patients who just got their test results, 49 positive, 22 pending and the rest negative and sent home. 4 positives went straight to ICU, the rest are being processes. All positive patients are getting Plaquenil (Hydroxy-Chloroquine) and Zithromax. First line of defense is working well. You know, I haven't noticed any bad societal behavior. Just the oposie where couples are walking, runners everywhere, us long walkers at great distance walking our dogs, kids playing that are just family members. Frankly, it's a beautiful site that I hope continues forever. I went for a five mile walk and I feel terrific, so does the Pooch. I did it all in our apartment complex. Be well Folks...Peace... Hey Chris, ExpoNencial. Great work Brother.

     

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 5:49pm

    #71
    Cascadianorth

    Cascadianorth

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    Joined: Mar 07 2020

    Posts: 3

    3

    I think Stanford/WSJ is wrong because of local observation.

    I have a problem with the Stanford assumption that many people have already been exposed to this virus. In my local community many people thought they had been infected, and got tested weeks ago. If so many people had already been exposed the number of positive tests would have been much higher around St. Patrick's day in my small western Washington college town. But the number of positive results were 6/166 tests by that date according to the Whatcom county health department. https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/coronavirus/article241232246.html Wouldn't there be many more positive results if a lot more people had been exposed in the four weeks prior to St. Patrick's day? Even if they were still asymptomatic? This disease seems to be spreading much more rapidly now (9 days later). The assertion that "Scenario B" is accurate doesn't pass the sniff test, at least locally.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 5:59pm

    Zippy

    Zippy

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    Joined: Mar 09 2020

    Posts: 2

    0

    Thanks !!

    I appreciate all of the tips!!. I teach and usually don’t have the time to create the best garden I can. I am on spring break now and using this time to get a great garden going!!  I am going to put the peppers in beds and use the the existing buckets for experiments.   Thankfully I know things that are easy to grow here and I am going to try other vegetables I haven’t tried before.  Need tips on potatoes.   Thanks guys!!!!!

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 6:04pm

    #73

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 806

    2

    Spotty Internet

    Used to be I'd see "no internet" 1-2 times a week, now I'm getting it 3-4 times a day.

    Not sure if my router is going out (its several years old) or we're seeing problems with the Internet. What is everyone seeing?

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 6:24pm

    #74
    NickAdams10

    NickAdams10

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    Joined: Feb 05 2015

    Posts: 79

    2

    Love the gardens

    I've been telling anyone whom I think will listen that they need to plant a garden this year. Container gardens were my suggestion to my brother, since the soil in his yard is kind of crummy.

    We have our plants started inside with grow lights (nothing on the scale of @dtrammel) and a series of 3' x 6' beds. They'll be outside soon enough. Unfortunately, they are within view of the whole street, but there's nothing to be done about that now.

    Here's to a productive growing season.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 6:26pm

    MQ

    MQ

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    Joined: Oct 13 2011

    Posts: 124

    1

    dehydrated veggies

    A good way to use these veggies is to turn them into powder. Add some to soups, sauces, smoothies. Store them in their own jars or mix them up.  Tasty and nutritious.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 6:33pm

    #76
    Hladini

    Hladini

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Dec 28 2011

    Posts: 252

    4

    20,000

    Hello Chris and Adam,  I could not find your 3/26/20 daily report to post this on, so here it is: (pulled from a zerohedge article)

    "Additionally, Dr. Birx played down some of the more dire predictions, including an Imperial College study that has circulated widely over the last week or so which called for 500k deaths in the UK. Dr. Birx noted that this number has "already been revised down to 20k".

    There's that magic number "20,000" again, referring to how many  deaths they are expecting in the UK.  I guess when that number is exceeded by orders of magnitude, they'll say "No one could have anticipated this!"

    Remember Operation Mockingbird?  It's mission accomplished.

    On the gardening scene, 240 feet of purple hull snap beans went in the ground today.  Tomorrow it's dragon tongues.

     

     

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 7:05pm

    #77

    AKGrannyWGrit

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2011

    Posts: 1052

    3

    Why Quarantines Will Need To End

    Now you’ll don’t shoot the messenger I just want to share a really great explanation of why quarantines will need to end.  The article is by someone way smarter than me.

    https://ourfiniteworld.com/2020/03/11/it-is-easy-to-overdo-covid-19-quarantines/

     

    “I sometimes write about the economy being a self-organizing networked system that is powered by energy. In physics terms, the name for such a system is a dissipative structure. Human beings are dissipative structures, as are hurricanes and stars, such as the sun.

    Human beings cannot stop eating and breathing for a month. They cannot have sleep apnea for an hour at a time, and function afterward.

    Economies cannot stop functioning for a month and afterward resume operations at their previous level. Too many people will have lost their jobs; too many businesses will have failed in the meantime. If the closures continue for two or three months, the problem becomes very serious. We are probably kidding ourselves if we think that China can come back to the same level that it was at before the new coronavirus hit.

    In a way, keeping an economy operating is as important as preventing deaths from COVID-19. Without food, water and wage-producing jobs (which allow people to buy necessary goods and services), the deaths from the loss of the economy would be far greater than the direct deaths from the coronavirus.”

    Gail Tverberg, OurFiniteWorld.com, discusses in detail the ramifications of quarantines.

    Hope people listen to Chris, post quarantine mask wearing would help a lot.

    Hope you read Gails article.

    AKGrannyWGrit

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 7:15pm

    #78
    MQ

    MQ

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    Joined: Oct 13 2011

    Posts: 124

    5

    Investing for the future--for those who like to eat

    Looks like there will be lots of gardens this summer. What will you do with all that produce?  What tools will you need?

    A pressure canner is necessary for all vegetables. Period. No matter if your great Aunt Gertrude water-bathed her green beans for four hours her whole life and no one died from them. She also boiled them for half an hour after opening the jar. Nutritionless mush!

    If you have access to fruit, a steamer-juicer is very nice. Beautiful clear juice which can be diluted one-to-one...a quart then makes a half gallon. The pulp which is left can be strained and made into fruit roll ups in your dehydrator.

    A dehydrator is fantastic for drying fruit, veg, meat, sour cream, etc. There are lots of plans on the internet for building solar dryers if you are worried about summer brown-outs.

    A stand mixer is useful for so much more than making cakes and cookies. My 21 yr. old kitchen aid has ground meat, make tomato sauce, juiced citrus, etc. It has been a workhorse.

    Blenders and food processors have their place. A handheld blender is very handy.

    But how to use all of there things, especially if food preservation is new to you? There are many books, some pretty pricey. Your state's Co-operative Extension Service has loads of free booklets on canning, freezing, drying, pickling, salsa making--plus recipes. They also have knowledgeable people to answer any questions you might have.

    Most canner gauges are not accurate, which is why it is recommended that they be tested every year. My advice is to buy a weighted gauge to place on the air vent. They are always accurate.

    My main point is that food production may well be a major part of your life from now forward. The tools you acquire will make this process easier and safer. All of the things I have listed may be spendy, but should last for years.

    I nearly forgot--a very large stock pot the same diameter as your pressure canner. The lid can be put on the pressure canner, turning it into a waterbath canner.

    There is a definite satisfaction that comes  from taking a jar or two from your pantry and feeding a cold, hungry family--without having to 'slave' over the stove to cook dinner while everyone else was outside having fun.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 7:24pm

    #79
    Cascadianorth

    Cascadianorth

    Status: Member

    Joined: Mar 07 2020

    Posts: 3

    4

    Corruption at Stanford?

    I was skeptical of the validity of the report that coronavirus was much less lethal than the annual flu when Stanford produced the article in the wall street journal recently about covid-19. Then I remembered that Stanford has a very aggressive investment portfolio (endowment valued at around $27.7 billion). After the last financial crisis (2008/2009) Stanford took much higher losses than the index for endowments (Cambridge associates US colleges and University median). The fund is leveraged heavily on the long side of the trade (because hedge funds have basically thrown in the towel on fighting the federal reserve, very few hedge funds actually hedge aka: "go short". They are commonly around 10x "long") Stanford has to be hemorrhaging cash out of its' fund from its' overexposure to higher risk assets. This has led to significantly higher returns when the bull market was running, but losses have surely mounted once again for the fund with the recent crash. I strongly suspect the WSJ opinion piece was actually written by the endowment managers to manipulate the markets higher. I strongly suspect from their results from the last financial crisis that the endowment may be down to as little as half of its previous value. If the "doctors" involved wanted to publish real science the WSJ opinion page would be the last place any real "doctors" would choose.  See:  https://smc.stanford.edu/assets/Stanford-University-Investment-Report-2019.pdf (especially pages 16, 17)

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 7:36pm

    #80

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 806

    3

    Not Just Containers, Get Really Small

    We've been talking about using containers and pots to grow veggies outside but many people who rent probably don't even have a bit of lawn to call their own to put a container or 6.

    That doesn't mean you can't grow food though.

    Sprouts are a great way to get some added calories and are fun too for the kids.

    Microgreens which is one step up from sprouts, that is growing things like lettuces, spinach and other leafy greens for just a couple of weeks, then harvesting them while they are small is another way to add significant calories to your table.

    Not just leafies either. Check Youtube for all the video tutorials on how to get an added kick indoors. Onions are a great way to add to your diet. Onion greens harvested from a water bottle garden in your kitchen and thrown into a bowl of ramin or into a soup gives it a kick and makes it a meal.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 7:40pm

    Linda T

    Linda T

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    Joined: Jun 09 2014

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    Re: Garden Thievery & Spotty Internet

    dtrammel,

    Have you considered having any perennial veggies? Several of them look just different enough that maybe the thieves would bypass them.

    Since there are soooo many people online due to lockdowns in cities, states, and countries, there are a lot of people such as us using the internet, in addition to the multitudes using Facebook, YouTube, etc. It’s entirely possible it’s not your router but the servers, data centers, etc involved used by the various ISP providers, part of the magical invisible system of the internet (which require an insane amount of energy to operate.  Not possible to operate only with renewable energies when you look at the math. I frequently see articles about this subject on:

    https://www.resilience.org/

    and will see articles by Tom Murphy there as well (his bio from his website “Professor in the physics department at UCSD, and the Associate Director of CASS, the Center for Astrophysics and Space Sciences. I am working on an ultra-precise test of General Relativity using the technique of lunar laser ranging.”)

    https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/

    Linda

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 7:44pm

    #82

    dtrammel

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 03 2011

    Posts: 806

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    New Theme Song?

    If this whole thing goes South for the worst, then maybe this will be our newest theme song?

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 8:05pm

    #83
    kunga

    kunga

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Feb 26 2017

    Posts: 368

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    Internet slowing down

    Article at drudgereport.com. says the surging net traffic from everyone being at home has caused deterioration.  Same thing happened in China and Europe with lock downs.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 8:14pm

    Linda T

    Linda T

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    Joined: Jun 09 2014

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    Re: spotty internet

    dtrammel,

    I forgot to mention/ask if you have an Ethernet cable to plug into your laptop (don't know if CPU's have a port for one) and then into the corresponding port in the back of your router. That can help, periodically my wifi signal cuts out too, but using the Ethernet cable I've had no problems. (I learned to leave one plugged into my laptop at my last address since the signal constantly cut out.)

    Linda

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 8:17pm

    #85
    jmone

    jmone

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    jmone said:

    Here in Oz we are also seeing a slowdown in the Internet and for the first time in decades even the phone network is struggling (with msg saying it is congested and you can not place a call).

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 8:19pm

    #86

    AKGrannyWGrit

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2011

    Posts: 1052

    2

    Dr. Has Solution For Virus

    This Dr has, supposedly, 4 degrees from MIT. His solutions make sense to me.

    Worth watching.

     

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 8:42pm

    #87
    singingblonde

    singingblonde

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    Joined: Mar 09 2020

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    Red Cross is at it again, just like HIV

    https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-03-26-outrageous-american-red-cross-accepting-coronavirus-infected-people-as-blood-donors-claims-coronavirus-cant-be-spread-through-blood.html

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 8:48pm

    sofistek

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Oct 02 2008

    Posts: 775

    2

    Dr Shiva

    Well, he is still claiming to be the inventor of email, on his web site and he is clearly promoting a book in the video. These things alone suggest he can't be taken seriously. Of course, a healthy immune system would be great and is vital for good health but the doctor's "solution" isn't viable since it would initially require no-one to do anything except wait to be tested. Otherwise, the virus rampages in the population that hasn't been tested.

    I could take issue with a number of things he'd written (and the way he'd written them) but I had enough warning flags go up to realise that I'd be wasting my time trying to analyse his so called solution any further.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 9:00pm

    singingblonde

    singingblonde

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    Dr. Shiva not alone in his views. See also Dr. Paul Cottrell and Dr. Francis Boyle.

    Immune and Economic Health for America Coronavirus

    Use above link to see the letter.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 9:03pm

    ao

    ao

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    AKGranny, i'd wholeheartedly agree with the general information he gives

    His Vitamin A palmitate recommendations were scary though.  I'd like to see research showing that a dose that high is safe, even if only taken for 2 days.  It is definitely in a toxic range from everything that I learned and read.  Hypervitaminosis is one of the most common problems with vitamin A and can be a huge problem with pregnant females.  Furthermore, I recall that Norman Childers, PhD regularly spoke out about the problems with the synthetic palmitate form of Vitamin A.  I tried looking it up online (where I had read it previously) but I can no longer find his website, probably because he passed away at age 100 back in 2011  IIRC, he felt that that form, in excess, could contribute to cancer and heart disease and stated that he assiduously avoided it since it was put in many commercial supplements and foods.   He talked about widespread adverse health effects in our culture from its use.  He was still traveling around the country lecturing on this subject (and especially, his pet subject of nightshades) in his 90s so he not only talked the talk but walked the walk of good health.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 9:13pm

    kunga

    kunga

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    Joined: Feb 26 2017

    Posts: 368

    2

    Dr. Shiva

    Many good scientists have disappeared speaking truth to power.  This is a tragedy.  What the good doctor doesn't understand, the psychopaths just don't care.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 9:19pm

    singingblonde

    singingblonde

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    A few observations about your criticism of Dr. Shiva

    1.  Who gets credit for inventing email is irrelevant to the topics addressed by Dr. Shiva.

    2.  Making information available for sale does not in and of itself call into question someone's integrity.  For that determination, the quality of the information should be scrutinized.

    3.   The reason you claim for the solution's nonviability is invalid for at least these two reasons.  1) The doc does not claim you should wait to be tested before taking the other steps.  2)  If you concur that Americans have poor immune health, you should agree that taking steps immediately to improve it would have benefits even to those who do not acquire COVID-19.

    I had never heard of Dr. Shiva before watching this video.  His medical advice is in line with other integrative health doctors.  Dr. Deagle and Dr. Brownstein come to mind.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 9:24pm

    ao

    ao

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    dtrammel, i had to chuckle at your comment that purslane is considered an ornamental

    Farmers would differ with you on that point.  It's a freaking weed and the bane of their existence because it grows like wildfire.  As a kid, I weeded acres and acres of the stuff from a farm.  That being said, you are absolutely correct.  It is a great food with one of the highest omega-3 fatty acid contents in the plant world.  It makes a nice addition to salads raw but must be eaten in moderation due to its oxalic acid content.  We use it in soups and stews but we've never thought of using it in stir fries so thanks for that recommendation!  And we've never ever had to plant it since it pops up spontaneously.  I still have to weed it out, lol.  Lambs quarters is another one like that ... pops up everywhere as a weed but is extremely nutritious and can be used as a spinach substitute.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 9:26pm

    kunga

    kunga

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    Vitamin A

    ao, to supplement vitamin A, what is a better form than the palmitate?  Thanks.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 9:31pm

    singingblonde

    singingblonde

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    Joined: Mar 09 2020

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    The Medical Golden Mean

    Certain supplements, for lack of a better word, can cause ill effects if too much is taken.  Fat soluble vitamins and iodine are two examples.  Patients seeking to better their health through such supplementation should seek medical professionals trained in their use so that outcomes can be properly monitored and managed.  The purpose of Dr. Shiva's letter is to outline the approach. Of course, doctors will manage the treatment of patients as appropriate.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 9:55pm

    #96
    David Webb

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    Reasoning from the claim, "half already infected"

    Claim: "As much as half" the UK population has already been infected.

    1.a. In the early stage of an epidemic, infections grow exponentially. If infections are doubling, say, every 3 days, then half the infections occurred in the last 3 days. And 3/4 occurred in the last six days.

    1.b. If the majority of infections occurred so recently, then the claim should be obvious by PCR testing. No need for "large-scale serological surveys," testing for anti-bodies.

    2.a. This conclusion seems absurd, so "as much as half already infected" must instead imply that we are no longer in the early, exponential stage, but rather near or past the peak, where the curve is no longer rising exponentially.

    2.b. In fact, if "as much as half" the population has been infected, then we must be near or past the peak at the epidemic's halfway point.

    2.c. Because of herd immunity, 100% of the population would not ever be infected, so actually it implies we are past the peak.

    2.d. Since the claim is that "as much as half" have not just been infected, but have already recovered, then we must be weeks beyond the peak--at least as long as the disease takes to resolve.

    3.a. Where is the corroborating evidence that we are past the peak? Hospitals would be overjoyed to see this evidence.

    3.b. If it was not evident on the day of the Oxford study (24 March), then surely we can wait a few days for this evidence before making critical policy decisions that will effect that fate of nations.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 10:56pm

    Hohhot

    Hohhot

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    Joined: Mar 12 2020

    Posts: 87

    1

    Information about Vitamin A

    Vitamin A is essential for the thyroid to convert inactive T4 into active T3. The largest prescription item in the USA for most years (except '19-then #2) is thyroid medicine. We have epidemic Hashimoto's thyroiditis.  Thyroid function plays a major role in immune response. It also helps with rapidly developing membranes like the throat, lungs, gut, and skin.

    Although Vitamin A is fat soluble, without some underlying kidney or liver issues, overdoses are rare. Had a book about vitamin studies in the '90s that said there were only 40 cases of vitamin A overdose in a 10 year period world-wide.

    Have used it in larger than RDA doses for sinus infections, thyroid function, allergies, and acne. Remember RDA's are NOT the amount for "health", but the minimal level to prevent detectable disease. Natural sources are fatty cold fish, liver, kidneys, deep green veg. Cod liver oil is an old fashioned source.

    *Not prescribing, everyone make your own decisions; but telling my own personal use.  I have used this cycle numerous times: 100K daily for 2 weeks; then 50K daily for 2 weeks, and then 10K daily for 2 weeks. Currently I take at least 5K daily preventatively.

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 11:02pm

    #98
    MQ

    MQ

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    Joined: Oct 13 2011

    Posts: 124

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    A very proactive company

    Not all Texans are like Dan Patrick. Most want Grandma and Grandpa to survive and thrive.

    https://www.texasmonthly.com/food/heb-prepared-coronavirus-pandemic/

     

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  • Thu, Mar 26, 2020 - 11:41pm

    #99

    guardia

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jul 26 2009

    Posts: 55

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    Masks are probably not enough

    I wouldn't be so sure that everything would work out even if the whole planet was wearing masks 24/7. Everyone in Tokyo has been wearing masks since January, but it's now on the verge of a lockdown...

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  • Fri, Mar 27, 2020 - 12:29am

    sofistek

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Oct 02 2008

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    Yeah, but

    singingblonde, I agree that the first two are irrelevant to the argument directly but they do make me wary of someone who is making the argument. I also agree that improving the immune system is a good thing (I think I said that) but the doctor is touting this as the "solution". It cannot be a solution if the first step is impractical, impossible or invalid if it takes too long to accomplish. If the first step is invalid then it is not a solution.

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  • Fri, Mar 27, 2020 - 1:11am

    VTGothic

    VTGothic

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jan 05 2020

    Posts: 333

    2

    Opportunism...again

    One does not have to presume TPTB loosed Wuflu to create the opportunity for one world government; one only has to recognize that those so inclined will use any opportunity to advance the vision.

    No conspiracy here, only opportunism.

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  • Fri, Mar 27, 2020 - 4:39am

    VTGothic

    VTGothic

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jan 05 2020

    Posts: 333

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    I agree Oliveoilguy...

    I never watched "12 Monkeys," and only watched about 5 minutes of the "report" posted here. It's pretty obviously bogus.

    The movie depicts a narrative. The "report" uses the fiction to "interpret" real life as it's still unfolding and so not yet knowable. As usual, humans see what we expect to see: feed us a plausible narrative that generally accords with what we're prepared to believe anyhow, and we'll accept it with little or no critical analysis. It's a textbook case of starting with a conclusion and tracing backwards to find data points sufficiently related, even tangentially, to plausibly "prove" the conclusion. Real world context becomes secondary, if not irrelevant.

    If you want truth, you start with a hypothesis and look for reasons to toss it out or refine it, not for reasons to confirm your (often unconscious) bias. Bias reasoning is endemic to humans, and the reason the scientific method is based on dis-proving, not proving.

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  • Fri, Mar 27, 2020 - 9:24am

    karenpath

    karenpath

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    karenpath said:

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10218376617061095&id=1062811331

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  • Fri, Mar 27, 2020 - 10:46am

    MQ

    MQ

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    Joined: Oct 13 2011

    Posts: 124

    1

    good site for dehydrating meals

    I check this site out for inspiration when my food preservation juices have dried up...

    https://www.backpackingchef.com/

     

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  • Fri, Mar 27, 2020 - 10:47am

    drbrucedale

    drbrucedale

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    Joined: Sep 06 2009

    Posts: 130

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    Gail Tverberg--Worth reading about overdoing our quarantine response to COVID-19

    Thanks, Granny.  I have been following Gail Tverberg's work at Our Finite World for a long time. You are right. Gail is really smart and has some great insights.  Like you, I recommend this article to everyone here.

    https://ourfiniteworld.com/2020/03/11/it-is-easy-to-overdo-covid-19-quarantines/

    Chris/Adam--I don't remember ever having Gail Tverberg on a PP interview. I think she sees the world much in the same way you do, but with enough important differences to really be worth hearing from at this unusual time. Any chance you could invite her for a podcast?  I think the PPers would benefit from hearing from Gail.

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  • Fri, Mar 27, 2020 - 10:56am

    MQ

    MQ

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    Posts: 124

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    thought for the day

    If I gave up sarcasm all I would have left is interpretive dance as my only means of communication.

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  • Fri, Mar 27, 2020 - 11:29am

    TurquoiseRose

    TurquoiseRose

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    Joined: Feb 26 2020

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    Dr. Lei Zhao, Infect. DIs. Post Doc At Harvard givng Presentation 3/28/20

    Dr. Lei Zhao, doctor from Wuhan, is giving a presentation near Stanford, thought you may be interested in joining virtually via zoom.
    Here is the Facebook Invite

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  • Fri, Mar 27, 2020 - 11:36am

    Credenda

    Credenda

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    Joined: Mar 19 2020

    Posts: 22

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    Homegrown spuds

    there’s nothing tastier than a homegrown potato. They’re easy to grow but I learned a few tips from a farmer once. Unless you have a fair amount of space you should decide on one type only. The first year I planted I had an awesome crop and no diseases. So the second year I got carried away and planted 3 or 4 different types, red, russets, Yukon Golds, etc. Big mistake.  Disease, poor yields and lots of critters.The farmer told me to stick with one so the next year I chose  Kennebecs and planted on virgin ground. Great results. I always planted two crops per year. Have fun.

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  • Fri, Mar 27, 2020 - 1:45pm

    shimz

    shimz

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    Re: Spotty Internet

    Hm. How many people are isolating at home with Netflix...? In Europe there's been talk about lowering the streaming quality to save bandwidth now that millions are working from home - doing video calls, streaming and gaming. That might be it.

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  • Fri, Mar 27, 2020 - 8:05pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    I wouldn't worry about Covid-19. It only affects dead people.

    So, I am here listening to Chris's new video.  And I am shocked to realize what trash the reported numbers are especially with germany.  So basically you can now just throw out all that data.  And we are back to an entirely new CFR again..  But wait.  Why worry.  The numbers don't matter because it only affects old people.  Remember Italy.  70% older than 70.   No one young dies from this almost.    Well those numbers are not real and can be garbage too.  They are already making decisions ,"ethical ones", that determines who can get the ventilator  AND when they sacrifice the old guy to give it to the young guy.   That does not mean that old people die from this any more,  its means they are sacrificed more.   I am sure this is happening.  It  was clearly told to us by Italian Doctors.   I am sure they are doing the same here in the US where we are at capacity.   or near or looking like we will get there. leave the beds open for the young .. they are coming.. !

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  • Fri, Mar 27, 2020 - 8:11pm

    saxplayer00o1

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    Purslane in dtrammel's post

    I'm sure a lot of you know this, but this is for those that don't. Around the Central Coast a type of purslane is a very common "weed" and is difficult to get rid of. It is edible and free, so you may think twice before pulling them up this year. Spring wild edibles (weeds) include mustard, mallow, wood sorrel and dandelion. These are the easiest to identify, but there are many others. For years a guy on youtube has been putting up video after video called eat the weeds. No reason to ever go hungry during spring.

     

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  • Fri, Mar 27, 2020 - 10:15pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Joined: Feb 03 2020

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    Regarding Dr Shiva

    I am not sure his protocol is proven.  But when we are failing with conventional medicine, I am willing to try it.  The theory is sound - the evidence for this protocol is solid.  It nothing earth shattering, but it does address nutrients deficiencies common in the modern world,  not that we didnt have disease in the ancient world.    So, being my wife is a nutritionist and I am a man of engineering and science.  And not pro-big pharma.  I say give it a try.     I think it could save many,   But I am sure many it will not be enough , and many might actually fair out better with conventional medicine.. Again , as he said , one size does not fit all..

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  • Fri, Mar 27, 2020 - 10:20pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Regarding reasoning of the claim: "half already infected"

    Basically, the only reasoning here, is there is none.   I would call the reason here for this belief , simply, low  IQ..  inability to reason..

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  • Fri, Mar 27, 2020 - 10:29pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    My stock is crashing in private universities.

    I have seen in recent times a lot of crazy stuff and people come out of private universities in the country.  I have no respect for wharton ( thank you mr president .)  Geogia Tech is another I will not hire from.   And now Stanford just lost a boat load of street credit.     -  Chris,  has redeemed Duke for the moment.. lol

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