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    Coronavirus: Debunking The Hydroxychloroquine ‘Controversy’

    The media's now saying it doesn't work. Is that actually true?
    by Adam Taggart

    Wednesday, April 22, 2020, 5:24 PM

There sure has been a lot of recent press about how ineffective hydroxychloroquine is. That’s a real letdown given how promising it was thought to be.

But are the headlines true?

To answer that, Chris pulls up the original VA study all of the recent headlines are referencing. Well, it turns out, it’s based on quite poor “science”.

For example, it wasn’t randomized; by its own admission, hydroxychloroquine was given to sicker patients, closer to death, when we know HCQ works best when given early on. And zinc, a key component to its efficacy, wasn’t administered. Nor was azithromycin in a number of cases.

Right now, the “HCQ shows no benefit” claim appears more an intentional narrative than a science-backed finding. In fact, there is growing empirical evidence, notably in France and Costa Rica, that it can work amazingly well when applied under the right conditions.

For now, it seems we remain best served by keeping our eyes open and doing our own investigation versus relying on what the media is telling us.

To that end, Peak Prosperity will keep up our efforts and continue producing these videos for as long as needed.

Key your own mind sharp, research and think before taking action, and ask questions in the Comments section below if you’d like to tap the PP tribe’s expertise.

Oh, and as always, keep working on your garden.

__________________________________

Below are the links mentioned in today’s video:

Related content
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102 Comments

  • Wed, Apr 22, 2020 - 6:11pm

    #1
    Hickmant

    Hickmant

    Status: Member

    Joined: Apr 23 2020

    Posts: 1

    27

    Wife Currently has Covid

    My wife is a first responder and started having symptoms 2 days ago. Her department setup an appointment to get her tested. She already has pneumonia in both lungs. She was prescribed hydroxychoroquine and zpack and I picked up zinc  when I got the prescriptions. She is already seeing vast improvement. She has gone from 104 degree temperature to oxygen stat of 93 to only 100 degree temperature and oxygen back up to 97. I would say it's working this is day 3. Keep doing what you are doing I would not have know about zinc except from listening to the information you are putting out.

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  • Wed, Apr 22, 2020 - 6:20pm

    Guvnor

    Guvnor

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    0

    Guvnor said:

    93 seems like a super mild o2 stat. Glad it's working.

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  • Wed, Apr 22, 2020 - 6:31pm

    #3
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 779

    8

    Question for Chris

    This may sound like I am venturing into conspiracy theory territory which automatically turns a number of people off. I always remember Mike Ruppert saying he didn't deal in conspiracy theory he dealt with conspiracy fact.

    (actually maybe more than one) since you were a VP at Pfizer you know quite a bit about the business side of the drug industry. Through all of this you have expressed dismay and incredulity about a number of issues in regards to HCQ. Question is what are the motivations for these supposed studies and articles from the perspective of a former drug company exec.? HCQ has been getting slammed while remdesvir seems to be the darling. Does Gilead have the influence to buy their great publicity? Clearly places like UVA are getting paid for their participation in these studies. Research depts. rely on funding from drug companies and the government.

    There are a lot of financially interested people involved in finding drugs with a high return. How does that figure in to all of this. After all the treatment with HCQ is $20 as opposed to hundreds with remdesvir.

    Obviously the media does not like trump so if there is an association of HCQ with him they will slam both every chance they get.

    So does the advertising budget of drug companies include a line for planting stories? Does the fact that drug companies spend a lot advertising dollars consciously or unconsciously affect editorial decisions?

     

     

     

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  • Wed, Apr 22, 2020 - 6:31pm

    #4
    tatagiri

    tatagiri

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    3

    do we have any better evidence than anecdotal evidence?

    Thank you Chris for great content, I find it very useful and learnt a lot and helps me get prepared.  I do understand that double blinded RCT is golden standard, however it is not possible always and there may be even ethical concerns to give half the patients placebo instead of HCQ.  There is a danger in either strongly advocating the drug as a solution or completely disregarding it without data.  The paper does call out the need for RCT and more evidence and was more honest compared to the completely botched Stanford paper you did yesterday. IMO, you probably should have waited some more time to give more informed data than the anecdotal evidence you posted today. It is ironic that you yourself have set a very high standard for recommendation of potential treatments ( yesterday's stanford paper take down is a classic) and by that standard today's anecdotal references missed the mark.

    So far, HCQ does not appear like the silver bullet and we should continue more trails. There may be in fact  a very small window where HCQ is effective, and then also it needs to be given with Zinc + Zpack along with other interventions. Let us know if you find any content that passes the high standards you have set here.

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  • Wed, Apr 22, 2020 - 6:40pm

    #5
    karenchantal

    karenchantal

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    Posts: 93

    5

    Work got 1st covid

    My warehouse in Virginia got its first covid.

    When I stop to think about it, it is crazy.  When did this explode in Wuhan?  In any case, a few months later I have it at work in Virginia.

    I was expecting this.  I am as prepared as I can be if somebody at home gets sick.

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  • Wed, Apr 22, 2020 - 7:19pm

    TWalker5

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    TWalker5 said:

    I somewhat agree with you, tatagiri. Chris does a FABULOUS job of pointing out sloppy science.  His demolitions of the Stanford and VA studies were things of beauty. FWIW, I have a terminal degree in physiology and am confident in my ability to critique study design, analysis, etc., but Chris does that as well as anyone I’ve seen.  He could probably be a peer-reviewer for journals in multiple fields.

    But that does make it frustrating that he has a tendency to use anecdotal evidence when it supports his pre-existing theories.  Exhibit A there was using anonymous Reddit posts yesterday to demonstrate how COVID-19 potentially results in long-term lung damage.

    That said, I still a) consider Chris’s videos to be some of the most informative around and b) HCQ + zinc to be as viable as any other potential treatment currently available. Hopefully, new data will be published soon that will help clear up some of the pertinent questions, as Chris mentions near the end of the video.

    Personally, without easy access to HCQ, I plan to employ a quercetin + zinc regimen at the first sign of contracting disease.

    T.

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  • Wed, Apr 22, 2020 - 8:34pm

    #7
    nordicjack

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    I would have torn this study a new ahole just like Dr Martenson/. good job..- But why was this "study" done?

    Well its hard to call this a study , more an assay or review..    But lets look at the motives for releasing such garbage .. I call it a propoganda machine.. But who would benefit?

    Well Big Pharma ,  The US govt who may actually want to kill off the sickest and weakest and oldest as they have the largest burden on the budget.   or large - they waste much more money for the black programs. and military.

    But how do we know its the US govt behind this propaganda?  Simple its veterans.  You cant just walked into a hospital and get to review medical records in private hospitals.   You would need their permission to actual study.      It just wouldnt happen. So what we have,  is a US govt propaganda machine, that has two interests, one to kill off the weak and old and disabled.   And second, to kill the cheap option of treatment and keeping these people a live - for something that is much more profitable.  Though the govt does not stand to make much money with a vaccine or patented drug for treatment.. those within the govt are influenced by those that stand to profit greatly from this.

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  • Wed, Apr 22, 2020 - 8:40pm

    #8
    CBellu

    CBellu

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    5

    Chris you may have missed this piece about Chloroquinone from March 20 from the saker

    Back in March (the 20th) the sake had a piece about Chloroquinone.

    Why France is hiding a cheap and tested virus cure

     

    Some interesting points (however, it is short ans worth reading):

    - Dr Raoult, ranked number 1 in the world as expert in Communicable disease  by his peers (http://expertscape.com/ex/communicable+diseases) suggests Chloroquinone (CQ) early, and was unimpressed by the French study design being planned (in March)

    - In january the new french health minister classified CQ a "poisonous substance"

    - The French central pharmacy stock of CQ was stolen

     

    Addendum: Lancet study showing endothelial cell infection is widespread

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30937-5/fulltext

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  • Wed, Apr 22, 2020 - 8:54pm

    #9

    Jim H

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    2

    Didier Raoult has already torn up this VA study, along with it's supporters.

    Ingraham has the Raoult feedback tonight.  "scientific misconduct" was mentioned;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RexUJeWmzSE

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  • Wed, Apr 22, 2020 - 9:08pm

    tourcarve

    Status: Member

    Joined: May 21 2009

    Posts: 45

    3

    Two Types of Evidence

    Evidence supporting an hypothesis and evidence suggesting that an hypothesis should be tested (theoretical and anecdotal) are different types of things with different types of criteria. I don't see that Chris has muddled the two, although his hopes come shining through.

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  • Wed, Apr 22, 2020 - 9:14pm

    #11

    sand_puppy

    Status: Platinum Member

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    9

    Some encouraging basic science info about HCQ

    Hydroxychloroquine, a less toxic derivative of chloroquine, is effective in inhibiting SARS-CoV-2 infection in vitro [at the doses commonly prescribed for humans].

    We have recently reported that two drugs, remdesivir (GS-5734) and chloroquine (CQ) phosphate, efficiently inhibited SARS-CoV-2 infection in vitro (in cell cultures).

    [A]s an experimental drug, remdesivir is not expected to be available for treating a very large number of patients in a timely manner.

    Therefore, of the two potential drugs, CQ appears to be the drug of choice for large-scale use due to its availability, proven safety record, and a relatively low cost.

    In light of the preliminary clinical data, CQ has been added to the list of trial drugs in the Guidelines for the Diagnosis and Treatment of COVID-19 (sixth edition) published by National Health Commission of the People’s Republic of China and there are 7 clinical trials registered in China.

    The conclusion

    • It has been reported that oral absorption of HCQ in humans is very efficient.
    • Tissue concentrations in the liver, spleen, kidney, and lung reaching levels of 200–700 times higher than those in the plasma10.
    • The usual safe dose for humans is 6 mg/kg/day, or about 450 mg for an average 70 KG person.
    • This dose of HCQ sulfate could generate serum levels of 1.4–1.5 μM in humans, and 200-700 times that in tissues.
    • Therefore, using the safe and usual doses, HCQ concentration in the above tissues should achieve sufficient levels to inhibit SARS-CoV-2 infection.

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  • Wed, Apr 22, 2020 - 9:14pm

    #12

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

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    Posts: 1206

    14

    An MD looks at the VA study

    https://breggin.com/negative-study-of-trump-miracle-drug-actually-shows-it-works/

    Negative Study of “Trump Miracle Drug” Actually Shows It Works

    By Peter R. Breggin, MD and Ginger Ross Breggin

    Today’s HuffPost happily proclaimed that once more President Trump had been proven by science to be wrong, this time about his support for the use of hydroxychloroquine for the treatment the coronavirus that is afflicting the world. Here is the HuffPost Morning Mail as it appeared in my inbox this morning:

    HuffPost – TOP STORIES – Wednesday, April 22

    NO BENEFIT AND MORE DEATHS FROM TRUMP MIRACLE DRUG 

    A malaria drug repeatedly touted by President Donald Trump for treating the coronavirus showed no benefit in a large analysis of its use in U.S. veterans hospitals. There were more deaths among those given hydroxychloroquine versus standard care, researchers reported. With 368 patients, the study is the largest look so far of hydroxychloroquine with or without the antibiotic azithromycin. [AP]

    The HuffPost mailing and AP article they published are a clear demonstration that some progressives would rather see patients die than acknowledge that the President might be right about something. But more serious issues about the misuse of science are involved.

    I have been evaluating drug studies in depth since the early 1990s when a federal judge in Indiana confirmed my appointment as the single medical expert to develop the scientific basis for all the more than 150 combined product liability suits against Eli Lilly & Co for its allegedly fraudulent testing and development of Prozac. The suits claimed that Prozac was causing violence, suicide and mayhem. As we demonstrated in our book, Talking Back to Prozac, the research used by Eli Lilly to get FDA approval was junk science; but it was pure gold compared to the research that claims to debunk Trump’s support of hydroxychloroquine for treatment of COVID–19.

    The study can be found here, along with often cogent criticism of it at the end.

    My reanalysis of the skewed data used for the study raises a strong possibility that hydroxychloroquine by itself and in combination with azithromycin (the Z-pack) was saving lives. Yes, the drugs could have been saving lives in this study and are probably continuing to do so around the world.

    How is it possible that a study which claims to show that a drug which supposedly caused an excessive death rate might instead have proven that the drug was saving lives? Because the patients getting the treatment with hydroxychloroquine were much more ill—much nearer to death and much more likely to die—than the patients who did not receive the drug.

    Federal government approval for hydroxychloroquine was only “authorized” for “emergency use.” In line with this, President Trump has repeatedly said, in effect, “If people are going to die anyway, why not try it?” That is also what the FDA essentially approved it for—people in an “emergency” condition. Although the guideline does not define emergency use, it would certainly rule out using it routinely and probably not at all for patients who were not deathly ill.

    The study itself recognizes this flaw far into their discussion (p. 12):

    Baseline demographic and comorbidity characteristics were comparable across the three treatment groups. However, hydroxychloroquine, with or without azithromycin, was more likely to be prescribed to patients with more severe disease, as assessed by baseline ventilatory status and metabolic and hematologic parameters. Thus, as expected, increased mortality was observed in patients treated with hydroxychloroquine, both with and without azithromycin. (bold added, p. 12)

    It was expected that more patients would die while taking the drugs because they were being given to much sicker patients! The authors claim to have found a statistical way to overcome this fatal flaw, but there is no way to do so. Control groups would be needed in which patients who had equally bad prognoses were divided into medication treatment and non-medication treatment groups.

    The study had no control groups at all.

    In addition, many patients were put on the medications after attempting to treat them without the drugs. Of course, the patients on medication had a higher mortality rate—many were patients who were already getting worse on the non-drug treatments. Furthermore, the patients doing badly on no-drug treatment do not show up as no-drug failures in the study.

    Furthermore, there is strong evidence that the combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin was saving lives. There was “no significant difference“ in the death rates from any cause for the patients on the drug combination compared to the patients on no drugs (p. 11). In other words, although the patients taking the drug combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin were probably the sickest of the sick, there was no significant increase in deaths among them compared to the much less sick patients who received no drug treatment. This suggests that the drug combination had a lifesaving impact.

    My initial analysis indicates that this study probably contains significance evidence for a reduction in fatalities on the medications; but it would take a complete re-evaluation starting with the draw data to be sure.

    Beyond what I have said here, this article has seemingly countless additional flaws; but there is no need to go any further that what I have observed.

    When I went to the link for the article, I was startled to read the following declaration by the journal to which it had apparently been submitted:

    This article is a preprint and has not been certified by peer review… It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice.

    This article has not been peer reviewed and not officially published as yet. In fact, if there is an honest peer review, this article will be rejected for publication.

    I want to conclude with an historical anecdote about Huff Post. I have nostalgia for the “newspaper” that was once called Huffington Post. Before it was created, founder Arianna Huffington invited me to join the new blogsite that she was creating and of course I happily agreed. Arianna and her conservative assistant, Andrew Breitbart, had been calling me and my wife Ginger on occasion for advice on Arianna’s columns. I viewed Arianna as an independent thinker, and I was proud to be included as a founding blogger on what would become her newspaper.

    I did write several blogs for Huffington Post, but as the blogsite morphed into a progressive political screed, I found the increasing censorship intolerable. The editors did not like my criticism of psychiatric drugs, psychiatry, or drug companies. A few times, Arianna intervened on behalf of my freedom of speech; but she eventually sold her newspaper. The editors then invited a state Commissioner of Mental Health, an establishment enforcer, to supervise my blogs and I chose not to try to write for them any longer.

    We have now reached the point that science is literally being created to meet the needs of progressive media and politics. That is very dangerous and could lead to science being viewed with the same disrespect and even disdain as the progressive media is increasingly viewed.

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  • Wed, Apr 22, 2020 - 9:53pm

    #13
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    6

    GOOGLE just ended its reign

    If they choose to censor freedom of speech then they will be sued . the amount of deaths they have caused will far exceed any value they could ever achieve.     There is nothing in its terms to make them offer content .. but when they discriminate and cause massive harm in the process by selecting who is of value, you have just committed business suicide.

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  • Wed, Apr 22, 2020 - 10:15pm

    #14
    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Joined: Feb 03 2020

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    6

    Jim - The agenda is clear

    Its getting increasing harder to fight the powers that be.  My wife, from another country , keeps telling me I am delusional thinking we have freedom of speech in the USA.  We no longer are granted anything like this.  I think we will hit well pass the 4th turning with this covid.  I do not expect anything of the present US to exist in 5 years.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 1:44am

    #15
    JWhite

    JWhite

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    Joined: Jul 12 2016

    Posts: 119

    1

    Germany to start first coronavirus vaccine trial before end of April

    Human trials beginning this month in Germany & UK

    https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-start-first-coronavirus-vaccine-trial/a-53211375

    https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-uk-human-vaccine-trials-to-begin/a-53206212

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 2:27am

    #16
    French connexion

    French connexion

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    Posts: 200

    3

    Well done Chris! and THANK YOU

    It may seem odd to THANK YOU, but in a word - the French government has declared here Chloroquine and all of its "esters" as being "vénéneuse". Meaning that to obtain it you need a doctor's prescription. If you get COVID-19, your Doctor can not prescribe it for you - I can say that MSM has done a wonderful job influencing everyone about it's toxicity!

    I do not live near Marseille. We are not allowed to drive anywhere without justification. I take heart medications and I am over 65 so I definiteley do not want to catch this thing. If you catch it - welcome to Brazil - the movie. I wrote my cardiologist as I would like to see how things would go should I get sick. Would he help me?

    I was shocked at his reply - I sent him a copy of the Dr Oz interview

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy1cPT1ztko&feature=youtu.be

    with the following in English:

    It was Dr Oz who says at 15:23 “You noticed in the paper that taking an ARB angio receptor blocker medication as well as other hyper-tensive medications was correlated to an increased incidence of being hopitalized and having to the virus present and having the virus present at 10 days, and in particular – the ARBs a very common blood pressure medication – 13% of the patients had a virus at this stage which was 3 times the average, 30% were hospitalized at 7 days which was 7 or 8 times the average. Why do you think this is happening?”

    My Doctor, a professeur, did not appreciate my mail basically telling me to phone 15 (emergency) contact my GP. Ienclosed his reply (most of it) as an addendum.

    To conclude: Post #6 CBellu   You are right about France trying to hide HCQ+ like the Cinderella drug solution. However for the stealing of all of the HCQ stocks from government supplies - better put that in the Fake News column according to my family members. This whole affair with our government is very emotionally charged. Stocks disappear yes, but maybe some of the hospitals in bigger cities pounced on the available supplies.

    I include this link (second time). In point 6 they mention HCQ being classified venemous. The underlined parts give direct links to other documents.

    https://www.francetvinfo.fr/sante/maladie/coronavirus/agnes-buzyn-et-son-mari-didier-raoult-et-la-chloroquine-on-a-examine-au-microscope-les-20-affirmations-d-un-message-cense-prouver-un-scandale-d-etat_3891385.html

     

     

    Addendum:

    We now have ongoing clinical trials to investigate a potential beneficial effect of ACE inhibitors in COVID19 infected patients. It may not work but we there is a rational for a protective role of these drugs so let's see how it goes.
    As for Pr Raoult treatment there is no evidence that it prevents neither Covid19 infection nor the risk of severe infection. In addition the combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin may induce severe arrhythmia leading to sudden cardiac death especially in patients with a pre existing heart condition which is your case. I strongly advise that you don't take such medication. For the record Pr Raoult is a biologist that knows a lot about bacteria and viruses but little about patients and drug effects. He has never conducted a clinical trial showing the efficacy and safety of any drug and it is a disappointment that instead of contributing to science and improvement of people's health care he prefers showing up on social media and television despite serious concerns regarding his so called discoveries.
    The best thing to do is to avoid being in contact with people that may be contagious. Knowing that the majority of infected patients have no symptoms the only way to prevent infection is to stay at home and if you need to go out for shopping to wear a mask (homemade masks are OK) and to keep social distanciation as requested. I hope that the virus will soon stop spreading and that a vaccine will be developed so that the containment can be halted for everybody. In the meantime several treatments are being investigated but the results may take some more weeks. I guess that by mid may we will have much more data and hopefully much more options.
    If you suffer from any sign suggestive of COVID19 infection please call your GP or dial 15 to discuss the best care. Knowing that you have a heart condition is very important and should be taken into account.
    I hope my answer will help clarify your ideas regarding the epidemic and the therapeutic alternatives
    best regards

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 2:47am

    #17
    French connexion

    French connexion

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    2

    This is a case study not anecdotal

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgrlabcBaHg

    We all have a responsibility to cut through the cr#p.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 3:14am

    #18
    stoff75

    stoff75

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    Joined: Apr 21 2020

    Posts: 15

    4

    Study in Norway and Spain underway

    In case you missed it, WHO ordered trials on some of the medications to treat Covid19 and it's being carried out in Spain and Norway since 3 weeks ago. Just waiting for the results 🙁

    https://sciencenorway.no/drugs-epidemic-medical-methods/global-corona-study-led-from-norway-life-saving-drugs-may-be-in-place-this-summer/1665737

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 3:51am

    #19

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2187

    10

    NYC HCQ trial finished - but no results yet

    Very curious.  NYC HCQ study finished yesterday, but no results yet.  I wonder why this is?

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/22/health/hydroxychloroquine-new-york-study-results-unreleased/index.html

    On April 12, New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo said, "about April 20 we think we're going to have results."
    When results were not announced on Monday, CNN asked why not.
    Cuomo answered that the hospitals "are to send their results" to the US Food and Drug Administration and the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
    The CDC has not received results from the New York hospitals, according to agency spokeswoman Kristen Nordlund.
    CNN did not receive an immediate answer from a spokesman for the FDA.
    The New York Department of Health did not respond to CNN's inquiries about when it plans to release the study results.
    Tuesday, after Cuomo met with Trump at the White House, a reporter asked Cuomo if he had "any indication of what the state results have been." Cuomo answered that he did not know.
    Holtgrave, dean of the University at Albany School of Public Health, said he plans to finish his study analysis by the middle of next week, and publicly release it within a few days.
    NYC hospitals - no rush on that data.  It's not like anyone will die if they don't get the data.
    Dean Holtgrave-  no rush on that study.  Take a week.  Take longer, if you need to.  Its not as if people are dying, waiting for the answer or anything.
    Cuomo - don't bother calling anyone down there to find out the answer.  It's not as if this is important - nobody is gonna die if this question isn't answered soon.
    Oh wait.  People actually ARE dying, waiting for you all to GET OFF YOUR F***ING ASSES and TELL US THE RESULTS!
    Hey.  Geniuses.  CALL THE HOSPITALS and ASK FOR THE DATA.  And Dean Holtgrave - how about you WORK OVER THE WEEKEND!  Ever think of that?

    Can they really be this incompetent?  People imagine Cuomo might be a good President?  When he doesn't care enough about his own voters to get the results of a trial that might end up saving their lives?

    Things are starting to smell so bad, EVEN CNN is starting to ask questions.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 4:33am

    #20
    GCTIII

    GCTIII

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    Joined: Apr 11 2020

    Posts: 2

    4

    The Trickling of Data

    Dear Chris thank you for your update and debunking many studies.  What really concerns me is the media and professional doctors getting on TV and telling us we do not know how many people have the virus like it is some revelation when the disease is passed by people not displaying symptoms.  I have know this since February after reading medical papers out of China and India.  This week it is the damage it causes to the blood and organs which has been known for a long time.

    I feel like the media thinks people are basically stupid and want to just scare the crap out of people. All of these symptoms honestly have been know for over two months. Having checked the VA study myself I was upset that the media would even publish this crap.

    I feel if Trump would state the new anti viral was great it too would be debunked. I am an independent but it appears to me if Trump thinks it may work the media will do their best to trash our president.  This country  needs to get over their divide and Trump needs to stop all the tweeting and lets do this logically and  do our best to find a responsive treatment.  Every study I have read in the USA chloro is used as a last resort.

    Thank you for what you  are doing.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 6:04am

    #21
    Marisca

    Marisca

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    Joined: Mar 21 2020

    Posts: 1

    5

    Family doctor who was using Hydroxycloroquine + zinc + azytromycine to "cure" 8/8 patients ordered to stop by Inspection Netherlands. Threatened with fines.

    Hi Chris,

    Your last episode triggered my memory of this:

    It is in Dutch, but basically states that a family doctor in the Netherlands (so early first line care) gave patients presenting with COVID-19 symptoms Hydroxycloroquine + zinc + azytromycine. All of them recovered within a few DAYS. Only 8 patients though, as he was ordered to immediately stop these "unproven" treatments and threatened with fines.....

    https://opiniez.com/2020/04/11/limburgse-huisarts-zink-lijkt-nodig-bij-corona-bestrijding/rutgervandennoort/

    https://www.limburger.nl/cnt/dmf20200408_00155572/inspectie-huisarts-moet-stoppen-met-experimentele-behandeling-coronapatienten

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 6:08am

    #22
    AssessX

    AssessX

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    13

    THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

    Thank you for this episode! So much bad science out there, magnified by so much BAD journalism, amplified by so much political BS! I'm a biologist and a population health expert. You are the light in the darkness! Carl Sagan would be very proud of you! I've been following you since February and your efforts are GREATLY appreciated! You have the potential to be an even greater voice, if you wish to be. I believe that every member here would do their utmost to support and promote your leadership. Up or down, not left or right! Thank you! PS - I started my garden two weeks ago!

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 6:22am

    CBellu

    CBellu

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    1

    Disappearing stocks

    French connexion #13: Good to know that the stock were not stolen. All I had to go on was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw082CdLugQ

    Interesting that your doctor was so against it. I saw on the Suisse news that Macron visited Dr Raoult and was quite supportive. Maybe they are beginning to worry about the fallout? Who knows.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 7:28am

    French connexion

    French connexion

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    2

    We need an approved treatment - why not Didier's to set us free

    I was hoping for something positive to come of that visit - on an Easter Friday. He addressed us on the Monday. Macron is married to a divorced woman, much older than himself, Brigitte - her daughter caught COVID-19 - was cured by HCQ+ treatment.

    So I think you can see why I was hoping for an opening - but no.

    We are stuck in a theater of the absurd, A Waiting for Godot. The official opening of France is for May 11th. Companies are organizing themselves - with the "accord" of the ministry of travaille (work) - presenting their plan for opening to be approved.

    Quite honestly - there is no need for government!

    I am watching the news, why does Mnuchin talk about opening by summer's end? Absolutely crazy.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 7:52am

    #25
    French connexion

    French connexion

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    6

    Wondering

    Clearly something is wrong, seriously wrong:

    1  When you read the thread here - doctor/patient relationship taken over by government. Fake News getting the best publicity.

    2  No matter how bad the news is re: economy - stocks go up. OK in the past we could hope for stimulus of some type - but the Oil market - we are talking about Dead in the Water! yet you would never know by looking at a stock chart that things are worse than they have ever been during my entire life.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 8:01am

    #26
    Dutchess

    Dutchess

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    3

    Hospitals in Basel and Geneva will start a trial with HCQ

    Hello all, just as a heads up:

    Swiss hospitals in Geneva and Basel are going to conduct a test with giving HCQ (only a single dose) to one group and lopinavir to another group (5 days) and a third control group. Randomized. All to be given after contact with a confirmed infected person. So very early, before even knowing if someone got infected. Zinc was not mentioned, nor azithromycin. Its not ideal, but it's something. https://www.swisstph.ch/en/news/news-detail/news/trial-launched-to-test-prophylactic-treatments-for-covid-19-contact-persons/

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 8:06am

    Dutchess

    Dutchess

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    0

    Interessant

    Dank je wel Marisca voor die informatie. Kan zin hebben dat in de gaten te houden.

    (For the non-Dutchies) Interesting info here. It is a local newspaper, I (Dutch, but not living in the Netherlands at the moment) have not heard of that. It's nowhere else in the news.

     

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 8:16am

    Dutchess

    Dutchess

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    1

    Dutchess said:

    More info here: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/sci-tech/flattening-the-curve_swiss-hospitals-launch-drug-trial-to-prevent-covid-19-infection/45711180?utm_content=o&utm_campaign=own-posts&utm_medium=socialflow&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2CtO6Q7DwVlqEPOa6LBZL-QKj4I284iV0CwbdD3xHOspavqtWWYNfmagk

     

    This article also has a link to a list of both submitted as well as submitted and approved clinical trials in Switzerland. Might be interesting to keep an eye on.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 8:17am

    Mpup

    Mpup

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    6

    Thinning the herd

    It's almost as though governments worldwide want a thinning of the population.  First they say not to worry, Covid isn't too bad.  New York City health commissioner says "it's ok to ride the subway, be sure to attend the parade".  Don't wear a mask, you're too stupid to know how to use one.  Studies show hydroxychloroquine will kill you.  Thank God my doc will prescribe hydroxy, and z-pack if I can get a confirmed positive test.  (I've got the zinc) That won't happen unless I'm hospitalized in later stage of the disease when the protocol will probably do no good.  4 million more on unemployment, another 2500 deaths, businesses closing, supply chains down, oil to 0, state and other retirement funds in jeopardy, and the stock market goes up?  We're the government and we're here to help.  What a flipping joke,  why am I not laughing?

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 8:18am

    drbrucedale

    drbrucedale

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    Joined: Sep 06 2009

    Posts: 126

    10

    HCQ and Trump's Tweets

    GCTIII...I have to disagree with you about Trump's tweets, especially as concerns HCQ therapy. The President has both a duty and a right to communicate with citizens. As our national leader in this time of crisis, it is also his duty to give us appropriate hope.

    It is pretty obvious that most of the media hate Trump's guts. Their Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) is just off the charts--incurable and inoperable. They cannot or will not report honestly on him. Whatever he is in favor of, they are opposed to. It might be amusing if it weren't so damned serious.

    In the case of Covid-19 it is literally a matter of life and death that we have the facts. Most of the media, including this Politico article that Chris has analyzed, are not interested in the facts, they are interested in making Trump look bad. Read the Comments section to see what I mean. (Disclaimer: I provided a couple of comments)

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/21/malaria-drug-virginia-coronavirus-study-198590

    So Trump was right to speak about HCQ weeks ago as offering some hope. He had communicated with Dr. Zelenkov who has successfully treated hundreds of Covid-19 patients with zinc, HCQ and Z pack. I am sure Trump also considered other evidence, and then he communicated with us. There was (and is) no time for a "gold-standard", double blind/placebo/peer-reviewed publication (2 years minimum).

    A good leader acts on incomplete information and does not hide behind "experts". Trump did so. Good for him. No matter what your politics, he made the right call and I don't care if he tweeted or used smoke signals to communicate with us.

    By the way, you might be interested in this piece about a Michigan Democrat lawmaker who believes her life was saved because of Trump's tweeting about HCQ and zinc. Enough anecdotes make a very believable story...it is called the law of witnesses.

    https://www.newsweek.com/dem-lawmaker-says-trump-saved-her-life-recommending-hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-1496469

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 8:27am

    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

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    20

    Sorry for the Frustration

    But that does make it frustrating that he has a tendency to use anecdotal evidence when it supports his pre-existing theories.  Exhibit A there was using anonymous Reddit posts yesterday to demonstrate how COVID-19 potentially results in long-term lung damage.

    It's worse than a tendency, it's all I've got to work with!  I've got the German MD with 6 divers.  I've got anecdotes coming out my ass.  What I don't have is large, peer-reviewed data sets of "mild" cases or survivors.

    I'm scouring daily for anything more concrete.

    But we're very early on in a major pandemic.  So I kind of expect that and do the best I can.  Same thing back when Fukushima broke.  I was staying up nights scouring crappy, low-res videos, reading sloppy newspaper accounts in my efforts to uncover what was actually going on.

    It got so bad Adam and I paid out-of-pocket for our very own satellite fly-over photo.

    What resulted?  Our analysis of what happened - which stirred up no small amount of backlash from actual nuclear engineers telling us we were hopelessly off-track and "cherry picking" - turned out to be completely confirmed.  But only many years after the fact.

    I don't profess to be equally right this time, but I am very, very good at collecting anecdotes that fit the underlying patterns.  So when I turn to certain accounts from Reddit, they are anything but randomly selected.  They fit the hundreds of clinical reports I've read through.

    I wish we had better, but I haven't found the source yet.  They will come.

    My prediction is that in the future we will know:

    1. Which missing micro and macro nutrients lead to some patients being slammed by Covid and not others
    2. Which genetic phenotypes lead to worse & better outcomes
    3. That some types of Covid damage are permanent
    4. That other sorts of damage heal, but very slowly
    5. That some 'forms' (mutations) or serotypes of Covid are worse than others
    6. The interplay of Covid damage with other external environmental factors (such as air pollution levels and types, dietary habits, etc)

    But we don't know any of that stuff yet.  Heck, we're still battling the idea that everybody wearing a mask makes logical sense.  And that is a dead-easy, stupid simple, debate 101 sort of an argument to make.

    But, as they say, "Science advances one funeral at a time."

    So these other more subtle things will come more slowly.

     

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 8:30am

    concreteblonde57

    concreteblonde57

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    1

    Sounds like stupidity reigns, again, this time by the Netherlands medical authorities

    I'm sure the families of these 8 patients that recovered would beg to differ.  What are they so afraid of?  Or is it a matter of money?  Is a company slipping money to them to promote their vaccine?  It sounds like HCQ has been tried all over the globe with varying degrees of success. If it works, and the family wants to try it, then why not, right? Nothing to lose if your mom or child is teetering on the brink of death.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 8:51am

    kleymo

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    5

    excellent questions about motivation

    I was telling a group of students this morning about the news industry in the U.S. Decimated news rooms over the last 20 years (Cleveland and Denver since the virus) have left insufficient resources for news organizations to dig into the facts. A superficial look at something, a press release, and voila. The role of specialized reporting has been taken over by web sites such as Peak Prosperity. Not enough people realize that yet, though.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 9:17am

    #34
    Insightfull417

    Insightfull417

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    4

    Coronavirus is presenting a lot like high altitude sickness, which may be why patients are going downhill fast

    I’ve seen multiple reports of doctors (in my nursing forum) stating that they have patients coming in and talking on their cell phones, but have very low O2 saturation. That’s not “normal”, normally patients are tripoding and “working to breathe” when their oxygen is low. I think this is why it’s so dangerous and lethal because of the “silent hypoxia”.

    https://www.healthleadersmedia.com/covid-19/nyc-doctor-says-high-ventilator-settings-damage-coronavirus-patients-lungs

     

     

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 9:18am

    stevedaly

    stevedaly

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    Coauthor of UVA study is an ophthalmologist???

    Siddharth Narendran, MD
    University of Virginia, Department of Ophthalmology

    Siddharth Narendran is currently a fellow in the Department of Ophthalmology and the Centre for Advanced Vision Science at the University of Virginia. He completed his residency at Aravind Eye Hospital, Madurai, India before joining as a fellow under the mentorship of Dr Jayakrishna Ambati. He has received the AIOS-HOYA Young Research Scholarship award from the All India Ophthalmological Society. His current research lies in understanding the role played by mechanotransduction, processes through which cells sense and respond to mechanical stimuli by converting them to biochemical signals, in inflammation and retinal pigmented epithelium degeneration in Geographic Atrophy. He is committed to pursuing a career as a clinician-scientist and hopes to serve patients both through direct clinical care and translational scientific research.

     

     

    https://aupo.org/programs-servicesawards/resident-and-fellow-research-forum

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 9:25am

    concreteblonde57

    concreteblonde57

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    9

    It's so simple, isn't it?

    I posted a photo on FB of a family in their front yard all wearing masks from the 1918 Spanish Flu Pandemic.  I posted this back in March and got 1 "like" from my sister who is a hospice nurse.  My caption, "This could all be over by summer if EVERYONE was required to wear a mask in public, social distancing, washing our hands regularly and cleaning commonly touched surfaces."  Now, we have people rioting in the streets, no masks, elbow to elbow, shouting with spit flying about how unfair all this is.  If they would all adopt the aforementioned practices, then they could go back to work.

    I love your candor and cutting through the "noise" in all this, and the fact all your predictions to date, have come to pass.  You and Adam are fighting the good fight. I wish I'd subscribed a lot sooner than I did, no doubt it would have saved me anguish with regard to my retirement account.

    Coronavirus: The Economic 'Rescue' Is Shafting Us

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 9:34am

    #37
    Allan Johnson

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    3

    This Hospital uses Hydroxychloroquine

    Part of an announcement by my Local Hospital:

    Across the Network, St. Luke's has discharged about 450 COVID-19 patients who are now recovered or on the road to recovery.

    Among the discharged patients are many who were on ventilators. Network-wide, St. Luke's has extubated about 50 patients thus far
    .
    "These remarkable figures reflect the incredible, lifesaving care that our doctors, nurses and other caregivers are providing our community, and the incredible innovations St. Luke's has implemented to meet the unique challenges presented by COVID-19," said infectious disease specialist Jeffrey Jahre, MD, St. Luke's Senior Vice President of Medical Affairs.
    Deborah Stahlnecker, DO, St. Luke's Pulmonary and Critical Care Associates and Medical Director of the Anderson Campus ICU said her team has been working tirelessly to provide the best care possible for our COVID-19 patients, and it's paying off.

    "We developed a comprehensive medication protocol based on the best evidence available that includes hydroxychloroquine, high dose vitamin C, zinc, atorvastatin and steroids," Stahlnecker said. "We also utilize non-invasive techniques such as high-flow nasal cannula and self-proning maneuvers, where patients spends up to 12 hours a day lying on their stomachs to help distribute oxygen more effectively in the lungs. Many of these measures were used to help Mr. Ding and others recover from COVID-19 across the St. Luke's Network."

    Among St. Luke's other innovations: The Network is one of the first institutions worldwide to use Masimo SafetyNet. Masimo SafetyNet uses a tetherless, single-patient-use sensor to monitor patients' vital signs and provide doctors with valuable clinical data that helps to inform difficult treatment decisions such as when to use a ventilator.
    "This technology is incredibly helpful in light of the crush of demand on our hospitals during this COVID-19 pandemic," Aldo Carmona, MD, St. Luke's Senior Vice President of Clinical Innovation and Chairman of the Department of Anesthesia and Critical Care, said.

    For more information on the St. Luke's/Masimo partnership, go to https://www.slhn.org/blog/2020/st-lukes-uses-new-tech-to-monitor-covid-19-patients.

    About St. Luke’s
    Founded in 1872, St. Luke's University Health Network (SLUHN) is a fully integrated, regional, non-profit network of more than 15,000 employees providing services at 11 hospitals and 300 outpatient sites. With annual net revenue greater than $2 billion, the Network’s service area includes 11 counties: Lehigh, Northampton, Berks, Bucks, Carbon, Montgomery, Monroe, Schuylkill and Luzerne counties in Pennsylvania and Warren and Hunterdon counties in New Jersey. Dedicated to advancing medical education, St. Luke's is the preeminent teaching hospital in central-eastern Pennsylvania. In partnership with Temple University, St. Luke's created the Lehigh Valley's first and only regional medical school campus. It also operates the nation’s longest continuously operating School of Nursing, established in 1884, and 34 fully accredited graduate medical educational programs with 263 residents and fellows. St. Luke's is the only Lehigh Valley-based health care system with Medicare’s five- and four-star ratings (the highest) for quality, efficiency and patient satisfaction. St. Luke’s is both a Leapfrog Group and Healthgrades Top Hospital and a Newsweek World’s Best Hospital. In 2019, three of IBM Watson Health's 100 Top Hospitals were St. Luke's hospitals. St. Luke's University Hospital has earned the 100 Top Major Teaching Hospital designation from IBM Watson Health seven times total and five years in a row. St. Luke's has also been cited by IBM Watson Health as a 50 Top Cardiovascular Program. Utilizing the Epic electronic medical record (EMR) system for both inpatient and outpatient services, the Network is a multi-year recipient of the Most Wired award recognizing the breadth of the SLUHN's information technology applications such as telehealth, online scheduling and online pricing information. St. Luke's is also recognized as one of the state's lowest cost providers.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 9:35am

    #38
    Insightfull417

    Insightfull417

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    This didn’t post in my previous comment about Coronavirus presenting like high altitude pulmonary edema

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/coronavirus-pulse-oximeter-device-oxygen-levels/

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 9:56am

    #39
    kleymo

    kleymo

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    Posts: 37

    8

    Praise from Nicole Foss

    In the attached interview, Nicole Foss praises you a great deal, Chris. I agree with her, completely. I have seen her speak in Milwaukee, and followed her for many years. The only mistake she made was in telling people too early, if that is actually a mistake (I personally don't think so).

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 9:59am

    #40
    vshelford

    vshelford

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    Posts: 165

    4

    About piecemeal slow-feed news

    The news media have always had a bias towards stretching a story out with the maximum amount of imagined uncertainty and sensational "new news".  Now that so much of the msm has been bought out by global corporate interests, and they are in it solely for the money, it's pretty much all info-tainment.  I remember back in the '80s, when my husband was working in the airline industry. there was a crash by some major carrier.  Within a few hours, he and everyone else in the industry knew what had happened and why.  It took the newspapers and TV a week to stretch, tease, speculate, enrage, justify, and finally allow enough facts sprinkled in there to make up most of the true story.  There were no other motives at that time, than just to get the maximum mileage out of a sensation.  Now that there are monetary, political and patronage issues thrown in as well, it's a wonder anything of value ever sneaks its way into these reports.  I congratulate Chris, Adam, and all the experts in their various fields we have in this community, for their efforts to bring clarity to the muddied waters - thank you!

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 10:01am

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1206

    6

    Kleymo

    I do appreciate that people are waking up to the lack of inquiry happening in our mass media news sources,

    I was telling a group of students this morning about the news industry in the U.S. Decimated news rooms over the last 20 years (Cleveland and Denver since the virus) have left insufficient resources for news organizations to dig into the facts. A superficial look at something, a press release, and voila. The role of specialized reporting has been taken over by web sites such as Peak Prosperity. Not enough people realize that yet, though.

    And yes, this is the time for alt. media to shine, and especially the hard science + common sense based alt. media like Chris and Adam promote.  I will though tell you that the situation with the mass media news is not so benign as you suggest.  It is done on purpose.  We are in an information war and many don't seem to realize that there is in fact an enemy.

    This issue of hydroxychloroquine's most beneficial use and efficacy is a lens through which to see the purposeful lies and narrative building, for those who can't stomach being a, "conspiracy theorist".  A new study out of NYC hospitals show that 88% of patients who go on a ventilator die.  Almost nobody needs to die or even be hospitalized if they get the meds (HCQ + Zinc + Zithromax) early enough, as proven by Dr. Robin Armstrong with the senior care home cluster he treated in the Galveston, TX area.

    The question you have to ask yourself is this;  why is there such a coordinated campaign, including mass media, some MDs, government officials like Fauci and Bright, attempting to stop us from having a safe, effective, cheap, and readily available treatment protocol?  Why would there be so many efforts in advance to hamstring this treatment by limiting it's use to hospitals where application is likely too late?  What's up with all that?  I will tell you what's up with all that with a quote from a friend of this website, Professor of Organic Chemistry at Cornell, Dr. David Collum;

    "I am a "conspiracy theorist".  I believe men and women of wealth and power conspire.  If you don't think so, then you are what is called, "an idiot".  If you believe stuff but fear the label, you are what is called, "a coward".

    Don't fear the label.  Stand for what is right and true.  In this virus we are facing an existential crisis yes, but I am not talking about our health.  Yes, a few percent of us could die if left untreated, unmasked, and undistanced.  But 100% of us will lose the last vestiges of Freedom if we don't resolve to extract this Globalist Technocratic tumor before it fully metasticizes.  The last stand is the US Constitution.. that is what is at stake.  Frankly, I will die fighting before I give up my kid's future to those who would make buildings fall and tell us hydroxychloroquine doesn't save lives.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 10:02am

    #42
    tkl

    tkl

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    Joined: Mar 19 2020

    Posts: 14

    0

    ClO2

    Not heard of Andreas Kalcker yet? He has been promoting the use of ClO2 for a long time. On his website you can even learn how to make it yourself at home.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 10:17am

    #43
    Sgt.Jasper

    Sgt.Jasper

    Status: Member

    Joined: Oct 01 2010

    Posts: 3

    6

    "A compilation of evidence on hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin [+Zinc] in treatment of COVID-19"

    Just ran across what seems to be a comprehensive - it includes Zinc references - compilation of research.

    https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1O6Cls-Oz2ZAgJuyDbnICEGjMvQPEyM-aaXARUomR9Ww/mobilebasic

     

     

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 10:18am

    #44

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1206

    10

    Try this exercise on your own please - it will be eye opening for all

    Go on Youtube.  Search on the term, "hydroxychloroquine".  Click the filter icon and choose, "today" for upload date.  Now scroll down.  What do you see?

    You will see all the flack being thrown at HCQ by various entities.  You will see the TV news reports, you will see independent journalist types who are subject to TDS and under the spell of the mass media propaganda machine.  Many of the videos paint Trump as some kind of stone cold killer promoting a dangerous drug for his own nefarious purposes.

    Chris showed a sampling of the headlines touting the flawed VA study findings in his latest video.. but it goes much deeper than that.  The mainstream media throws out QUANTITY.  This is why when I told my elderly mother weeks ago that I thought hydroxychloroquine would help especially with older at risk folks, she retorted that it was dangerous!  This was back when the chloroquine phosphate fish tank cleaner death was heavy in the propaganda feed.

    Please recognize that this is not benign neglect for proper news inquiry.. this is a well honed propaganda machine, whipping up those in the matrix as a force multiplier.  The good news is that Chris' latest video is now > 100K views!!!!!  Thank you Chris!!!!

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 10:40am

    #45

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2187

    5

    NYC: 21% test positive

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/nyregion/coronavirus-new-york-update.html

    Implications:

    1) CFR is about 0.5%

    2) test-and-trace - probably won't slow infections with 2.3 million people infected.  That particular horse has left the barn already.  It will, however, get people treated early, which will end up saving lives.

    We really want to leap into a Great Depression for a disease with an 0.5% CFR?

     

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 11:16am

    #46

    AKGrannyWGrit

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2011

    Posts: 1047

    3

    Kleymo - thank you - Nicole Foss gets it!

    “How long before people get really hungry before there is a revolution”?

     

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 11:24am

    #47
    Dutchess

    Dutchess

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    Joined: Apr 23 2020

    Posts: 4

    0

    Dutchess said:

    Bloodsugar, diabetics and, yes, HCQ treatment in New York (no clue how to weight the site nbr, choosing to use the word 'horrible' in their heading, but interesting nonetheless)

    Doctors have found a horrible new coronavirus complication

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 12:23pm

    #48

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1206

    5

    Suppression of HCQ-positive studies

    We know that a total crap retrospective study of the effects of hydroxychloroquine like the recent VA study will be held up on high by the powers-that-be... but what becomes of a study with a positive message?  As you can imagine, it gets torn apart, then suppressed.  Witness the Prevent Senior study from Brazil.

    Here is the original pre-print of the study;  https://www.dropbox.com/s/5qm58cd4fneeci2/2020.04.15%20journal%20manuscript%20final.pdf

    Here is a critique of the study that goes to almost bizarre lengths to make it sound unscientific.  Recall that we are in the midst of a pandemic, and this study is looking at the potential benefits of early treatment for the mostly elderly population under the case of Brazil's hospital and insurance group called Prevent Senior.

    Here is the "critique" by some blog named scienceintegritydigest;    https://scienceintegritydigest.com/2020/04/18/thoughts-on-the-prevent-senior-study/

    Here's an example of the fine work done by Dr. Elisabeth Bik of The Netherlands, surely meant to support humanity;

    The two groups were not equally sick

    In terms of how sick these patients were, there are significant differences between Treatment and Control group as shown in Table 1 above. In general, the Treatment group had a higher incidence of fever, cough, diarrhea, muscle aches, etc. They appeared to be a bit sicker at baseline than the Controls. On average, they had 1.4 of the listed symptoms.

    But look at the Control group: the summed percentage of the “flu-like symptoms” in the Control group is only 71%! Because that is below 100%, that suggests that several Control group patients did not have any of the listed COVID-19 symptoms. So why were they enrolled in the first place?

    Table 2 (below) also appears to suggest that the Treatment group had more COVID-19-like clinical features than the Control group.

    Understanding that we are in the midst of a pandemic, and the, "control group" in this case was in fact constructed of people who had refused the HCQ treatment for what were in many cases presumptive cases of Covid-19.. the criticism here is that the treatment group was in fact more likely to have Covid-19.  While that may be true.. is it really bad?  Does it invalidate the results or does this actually make the results STRONGER?

      These combined findings suggest that some people in the control group might have had an illness different than COVID-19. If the treatment was so successful, why were more CT scans performed in the Treatment group, and were more of these suggestive for COVID-19?

    So the supposition here is that the control group may not have had as high an incidence of Covid-19 as the treated group.. OK... but the author thinks maybe they had things WORSE than Covid-19?  Is that the implication?  OMG.. talk about throwing out the good in the name of perfection.

    So do you think this highly HCQ-p0sitive study will see the light of day?  A study with hundreds of patients showing the following overall results for an elderly population;

    HCQ regimen given < 7 days from symptom onset:   1.17% hospitalized

    HCQ regimen given > 7 days from symptom onset:  3.2 % hospitalized

    HCQ regimen turned down:  5.4 % hospitalized

    Why no, it won't see the light of day in the official tally.  The Clinical Research Organization that was working with Prevent Senior to help run the study decided it was too hot to handle.  See how this all works?

     

     

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 1:12pm

    taz1999

    taz1999

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    4

    Facinating and frightening

    You've touched on a subject;  It amazes me how quick and pervasive a narrative becomes active or an alternate story buried.  The HCQ bad parrot stories came out frighteningly close in time with each other.  It's not like the story sat on someone's desk for a couple of weeks.  When the paper gets retracted, you won't hear word one.

    They should let me edit the stories.  "We tried some treatments on people close to death and they in fact died.  As a bonus here's some bad methods and statistics".

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 1:15pm

    Dutch Boomer

    Dutch Boomer

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    Expecting a problem will lead to a problem in any fast study

    Mrs Bik's expertise is to find misconduct. In the middle of a pandemic where there is no time to conduct a perfect study she will easily find a problem.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 1:33pm

    #51
    Jeff

    Jeff

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    Promising treatment!!!

    Maybe September for these antibodies, trials underway

    https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2020/04/15/coronavirus-antibodies.aspx

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 1:35pm

    #52
    loj-ikul

    loj-ikul

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    5

    Remdesivir Flops in first clinical trial

    https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/stocks-slide-report-gilead-miracle-drug-remdesivir-flopped-during-first-clinical-trial

    So much for Remdesivir being the miracle drug of the WHO. Like HCQ it does not help  severe 3rd stage corona-virus patients. It also had side effects harsh enough for 18 patients to be taken off of it.

     

    Hickmant: Hope your wife gets well soon. I know a gentleman that came down with the virus. He took HCQ in the early fever stage along with zinc and Zpak. He also took vitamin C, D and a large amount of Gatorade. He fully recovered.

    As I posted a while back,  HCQ is not given as an outpatient treatment in stage one of the infection as it should be. A reason is the Hospitals do not receive much revenue from a clinical visit vs an admission to the hospital. Other reasons could be political division against the President and direct competition to Remdesivir. A trifecta that could have a negative outcome for patients with weak immune systems. Some hospitals are giving HCQ but not zinc as Chris noted and giving it too late which renders it useless as a treatment. Stage 1 not stage 3~!

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 1:49pm

    #53
    hollyvquick

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    hollyvquick said:

    Good info on COVID-19 drug therapies and clinical trials for these drugs from Dr. Mike Hansen, a pulmonary medicine doc. He covers chloroquine, as well as chloroquine + zinc studies (which are underway and it is too soon to tell if they work). Chloroquine + zinc studies, it appears, include both mild/moderate and serious/critical disease patients, if they are similar to the chloroquine only studies. Here is the link to the 25 minute video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBWaWqXZgko

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 1:51pm

    #54

    gallantfarms

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    Useful Vitamin Treatments Are Also Dismissed & Smeared in Media

    Many supplements have solid science behind them but are ridiculed in the MSM.  This is yet another example of how the media delivers only the messages that are "good for business" for Pharma Companies.  (Think about how many drug ads they buy these days).

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 2:26pm

    #55
    French connexion

    French connexion

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    Good goin Didier

    I didn't see anyone mention this today.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/stocks-slide-report-gilead-miracle-drug-remdesivir-flopped-during-first-clinical-trial

    Talk about a timely event fitting into the podcast topic.

    Please note - that this is not just a health story / Fake News story.

    On Friday the newswires were hyping this drug as THE miracle cure. Stocks went crazy - Gold got hammered down. All in all it was a very nice manipulation. It may have also marked the high water mark on this current stock rally - we shall see!

    At the very least it is a great victory for Dr Raoult and his inexpensive HCQ+ treatment.

    Why? Because there are not alot of beauty queens in this pagent. At least None like our ChloroQueen.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 2:26pm

    #56
    VeganDB12

    VeganDB12

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    singulair-worth a look?

    https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/04/22/coronavirus-covid-19-singulair-montelukast/

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 2:29pm

    Jim H

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    2

    All hail our ChoroQueen!

    You gave me a good laugh my brother from France  : )

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 3:09pm

    #58

    gallantfarms

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    Utah still likely to give out malaria drugs, despite VA study that found they don’t help

    This is my home state of Utah.  Of course they are using the V.A. Study as evidence to discourage the purchase:

    State leaders who want to buy a stockpile of malaria drugs for the coronavirus are digesting a new study that demonstrated no benefit — and suggested some possible dangers — in using the medication during the pandemic.

    But Jeff Burton, who’s heading the coronavirus response at the Utah Department of Health, says they’re unlikely to reconsider the purchase.

    “At this point, there would have to be a lot more information to come in that would cause us to not want to proceed,” Burton said Wednesday in a phone interview.

    Utah officials haven’t finalized the deal to buy medication for up to 200,000 coronavirus patients but want to distribute the huge supply of drugs to pharmacies across the state, according to representatives of the Utah Department of Health. The medication would be available for free to patients with a prescription certifying they have an active case of COVID-19.

    Utah health officials in March asked two medical experts for advice about stocking up on hydroxychloroquine, and both discouraged the purchase, saying there is no solid evidence of its effectiveness in combatting the virus.

    Utah House Democrats on Tuesday released a statement expressing concern over the planned transaction, mentioning the VA study as clear evidence that more research is needed on the drugs’ safety as a COVID-19 treatment.

    https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2020/04/22/va-report-malaria-drugs/

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 3:46pm

    #59
    CCBW

    CCBW

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    Daycare in Michigan

    This will blow your mind michigan schools are closed. My high school grils a senior and freshman are home no school no prom no performances for there band ,they cant march in the Memorial day parade it was cancled and delayed commencement for seniors. BUT Daycare is open you have to be kidding pile a bunch of babbies to five year olds together and that's not a problem. Our governor apparently missed this one. By he way I know vary few little kids get covid19 but ill bet they can carry it to grandparents or mom and dad.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 4:00pm

    Captain Queeg

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    RE: Daycare in Michigan

    Please don't expect Commissar Whitmer to exhibit any common sense of rationale when implementing & extending our lockdowns CC... Not sure if you saw her presser yesterday, but the State employees that she's temporarily laying off will be automatically enrolled so they don't have to endure the pain of using the website...;0)

    Truly bizarre...

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 4:17pm

    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

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    Re: NYC 21%

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/nyregion/coronavirus-new-york-update.html

    Implications:

    1) CFR is about 0.5%

    2) test-and-trace – probably won’t slow infections with 2.3 million people infected.  That particular horse has left the barn already.  It will, however, get people treated early, which will end up saving lives.

    We really want to leap into a Great Depression for a disease with an 0.5% CFR?

    I've been digging hard but cannot lay my hands on the test sensitivity and specificity.

    The Wadsworth test, if that's the one used (and I think it is), comes with a data sheet that very unhelpfully only says: "However, specificity for the Wadsworth Center (WC) SARS-CoV-2 IgG test has been determined to be 93 to 100%. "

    Uhhhh, that's a mighty big range with huge implications.  Which is it?  93% or 100%?

    It says nothing, nada, zippo, about the sensitivity of the test, which is its ability to correctly deliver a true negative.

    Here's a handy table I found that parses through the false positive rates associated with different Spec/Sens combos at a given true incidence rate of 5%.

    So we really need to see the test parameters before we can determine anything.  Also the sampling methods.  Was it truly random?  Hope so.

     

     

     

     

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 4:32pm

    #62
    PhilH

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    Friend died from CV - Given HCQ

    Best I can determine from limited number of texts from him, he waited to go to hospital until he was in really bad shape, he got HCQ just a few hours before he was put on a ventilator.  Which follows with Chris's statement, it will not work if you wait too long.

    WRT MI, Whitless has a 65% favorable rating.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 4:41pm

    stoneman

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    5

    Better tests coming on line very soon

    I have been part of a test validation effort. Our test will test both IgA (which arises from infected mucosal membranes such as the mouth and gut, as well as the lining of the bronchial tree), and IgG.  It looks like the test has a 97% PPV, and that is assuming only about a 2-4%  prevalence rate. So I look forward to excellent prevalence data being available in the very near future and the ability to finally solve 1) true CFR, 2) Chris's scenario A vs B, and 3) try to determine what the real risk factors are for bad outcomes. If will be interesting to see if the Wadsworth test results are replicated.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 4:50pm

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    I do not put much into the testing

    I know we are scenario A.  The fact that everyone has already been infected with a disease the consistently shows impaired and permanent lung damage even in the healthy population is troubling.   People want to believe this to reduce the death rate - but the truth a high death rate would be a more welcomed scenario.  As it would mean less infected less permanently disabled people.  YOUNG PEOPLE

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 6:03pm

    Chris Martenson

    Chris Martenson

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    Re: Better Tests Coming Soon

    It looks like the test has a 97% PPV, and that is assuming only about a 2-4%  prevalence rate.

    That sounds excellent!

    I'd trust those results.  Any chance people could self-administer like a home pregnancy test?

    I ask because it might be a good idea to include a sample from people who've been staying faithfully at home in the sample (because just testing people wandering about might bias towards people with that tendency).

    So maybe mail a bunch of tests out to a random sample and offer a $100 if the test is properly run and returned.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 7:13pm

    #66
    Sparky1

    Sparky1

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    Chris' newest video, "A Plan Forward" (4/23/20)

    "Here's Everything We Should Be Doing Now To Beat The Coronavirus" (4/23/20)

     

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 8:26pm

    Mpup

    Mpup

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    Really wonder if there isn't an ulterior motive?

    https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/929253?nlid=135188_5653&src=wnl_newsalrt_daily_200423_MSCPEDIT&uac=214599CN&impID=2357488&faf=1

    I read this and the doctors comments about this article in Medscape.  They know its a crock.  Really makes me wonder if a big Pharma, notably one currently in the news isn't behind some of this bs. Will be skeptical about anything I read in Medscape in the future.  This reminds me of Clara Peller in the Wendy's commercial:  "Where's the zinc"

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 8:54pm

    Jim H

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    Mpup

    As often happens with these kind of articles.. the comments section tends to restore my faith in humanity.  Here are a few choice comments from the article you linked to;

     

    Dr. Laurentiu Dinescu2 hours ago

    I can only say that I am a living testimony of being "saved" by Hydroxychloroquine. After 2 days of severe symptoms of myalgias, arthralgias, chills, rigors, terrible headaches, gasping for air, dry cough, chest pressure and strangely - neuropathic symptoms, with a positive COVID test, everything changed after just taking the first dose of 200mg of Hydroxychloroquine (in combination with Azithromycin). In just a few hours it was like night and day. And while healing didn't happen overnight and there were milder relapses and remissions along the way, I can't ignore the absolute clear improvement after taking that first dose.

    My father (86 y/o) in my opinion was "brought back to life" by the same medication after being close to death.

    Similarly, from a group of 4 friends (healthcare workers) who carpooled on their way back from their hospital with the masks on, when everything was just starting here in the USA, and social distancing was at its inception, 3 took Hydroxychloroquine and one didn't. All tested positive, and the only one who died was the one who didn't take Hydroxychloroquine.

    Coincidence? Confounding factors? Luck? Maybe... but I know what I personally experienced and no such study as this will change my opinion.

    (I know so many others who went through similar experiences and are not accounted for in studies like this)...

    Thousands and thousands of anecdotal people.. what to do?  And this thoughtful comment;

    Dr. thomas bennett2 hours ago

    Why not do an article on the study by Raoult on 1061 hospitalized patients treated with HCQ and Azithromycin with 91% success rate and one death.  You keep referencing the 36 patent pilot study--why?  His work has moved forward.

    Why not review Rauolt's letter critiquing the lack of credibility of the VA study in its construct and conclusions.

    Why not review the VA director's disparaging comments of the VA study.

    This study and this publication are worthless and fail across the board.

    The patients should be treated earlier with HCQ.  These patients with multiple have co-morbidities that could be a cause of death.  HCQ has an excellent safety profile and has been used for >50 years with extremely rare cardiac events.  If there is a problem, it would be Azithromycin with a known QT interval effect.  In patients that are taking other meds that affect the QT interval, then use a different antibiotic---Augmentin?

    So many calling BS on the hitstream media.. more people are waking up than you can imagine;

    Dr. Maria Rivero2 hours ago

    Bad Study retrospective observational no controls and patients with severe disease.  Basically a hit piece.  Really criminal if this dissuades doctors from using Hydroxychloroquine in less sick patients.  Costa Rica has had very low mortality.
    OMG a co-author has received funding from Gilead who manufactures the competitor expensive drug.  Wonder ?if there is any connection

    And this comment will be of interest to dedicated PP.com readers;

    Nancy Schort2 hours ago

    I am a dentist. This is anecdotal but I hope helpful. I always have taken Quercetin 1000mg, zinc 30 mg and Vitamin C 1000 mg any time I suspected a cold or flu starting which for me always starts with a sore throat. I have usually had good results so after babysitting my sick 6 year old grandson, who was diagnosed with pneumonia mid-February and starting to get a sore throat a few days later, I took my standard OTC preventative mix. I had chills, sweats and a high 103 fever that night which could have gone higher in the night but I was much improved the next day. I took 500mg. Quercetin twice a day for two days along with500 mg. Vit C and 15 mg. zinc. I had no idea what it was that I had but had thoughts it could be the virus we were just hearing about in China. Then I found out my grandson’s best friend had been in Asia visiting family over the winter Holidays and been ill. I am scheduled to get the serum antibody test soon. Researching Quercetin, it is an ionophore that acts to allow zinc through the cell membrane to block the replication of virus. I am just passing this anecdotal report to help anyone interested so it may be of interest to have these OTC’s on hand for immediate use.

    People.. Doctors.. they get it more and more;

    Dr. Steve Gormican3 hours ago

    The treated group was about twice as sick as the control group and had about twice as much death.But the treated group had much less need for ventilators.There are two phases of Covid-19.The first phase is virus replication and the second phase is the cytokine overreaction of the immune system.HCQ works to diminish viral replication.If you give it to those in the cytokine phase, it should not work.  Unfortunately, the study and the analysis have political overtones.

    And finally this Doctor who just wants to save lives... sounds like a FU to Fauci to me;

    Dr. Timothy C Hlavinka MD2 hours ago

    @Dr. MICHAEL ATKINS Again, there is a mechanism of action, initial in vitro benefit, early trial benefit. And a SERMO survey of 3000 docs that ARE TREATING COVID it is considered the most effective therapy COVID 19. What are you going to do when there is no time for your Sacred Cow randomized RCT? What are you going to tell that patient right in front of you?

    There is often un-mined Gold in the comments section.  Yeah, they are not all positive.. but the vast majority are as above.  Best regards, and good night from information warrior Jim H.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 8:58pm

    #69
    jerryr

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    Re: NYC 21%

    Another study gave PCR tests to 214 pregnant women who gave birth at the New York–Presbyterian Allen Hospital and Columbia University Irving Medical Center between March 22 and April 4, 2020. Of those, 33 women (15.4%) turned up positive for SARS-CoV2, although only 4 had symptoms on admission, and 3 more developed fever before discharge from the hospital.

    See: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2009316

    The serum study discussed in the New York Times article took place a week or two later, so it seems plausible that the infection rate would have increased somewhat. Also, the PCR study of pregnant women would not have turned up any positive results from subjects who had completely recovered from an infection, even though they might still have antibodies and thus would test positive for a serum study.

    So, the results of the obstetrical study seem generally consistent with the later serum study, and both of them point to widespread public exposure to the virus already in the New York area.

     

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 9:14pm

    nordicjack

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    i wouldnt bet on that to be so.

    I am not sure 15% or 20% or anything close to this have already been infected in NYC.  And I certainly would not bet my life on it.  We know that the CFR is at least 1% in NYC - because the state as a total has a mortality rate of .001.    I am not going to waste time with the math , if you cant figure that out, nothing I say here will matter.    So, if the 8.5M population in NYC had the infection with a 1% death rate you would be around 85k dead.  we have about 1/5 still rapidly climbing.  So, again, this suggests minimally, by what you are observing, as CFR of at least 1%.    My guess, is this number can change , it can actually go higher, and time will tell.  However , it cannot go lower.  So while peopel are trying to make this less than it is suggesting more are sick than know.. its not going to get anywhere what some people are saying.. .002 or .006 like some authorities.. we are already minimally at .01 , and quickly working higher.  All deaths in NY state, not just city, would have to stop completely today with no more to have 1% CFR.  One caveat, CFR is a variable based on quality and quantity of healthy care.   However, for my purposes , what is the CFR without medical intervention.. ?That is the only real importance in a true epidemic.  As, if we do nothing or do it wrong, the medical community will collapse.

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 10:30pm

    #71
    Truth9834

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    Excellent Video by Med Cram - discusses the flawed VA hydroxychloroquine study / spread rate / death rate / etc.

    Here is an excellent video that discusses death rate by age, hydroxychloroquine studies, coronavirus spread rate / new NY death rate study, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn2yk5SbGiw

    I am skeptical of the NY spread rate numbers for the following reasons: (1) how accurate is the test they are using (2) the government really want the economy running again; (3) it makes no sense to have such a low fatality rate as we have the Diamond Princess data - [a closed sample] where 2% of those infected died (though they were older and we now have the hydro / Z pack / zinc treatment). If the new numbers are correct they most likely are heavily weighed to those under age 60 (the governor mentions the tested group was out and about in New York and probably did not include the older population group).

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  • Thu, Apr 23, 2020 - 10:45pm

    sofistek

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    Are pregnant women representative of the population

    That's an interesting statistic but I'd want to know if women in late pregnancy are more at risk to contracting the virus due to their interactions. Midwife visits, hospital visits, pregnancy groups, other parents, if they have other kids, and so on. It may be that 15% is to high (or too low) a figure to apply to the general population.

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  • Fri, Apr 24, 2020 - 1:46am

    #73

    davefairtex

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    Posts: 2187

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    population infection testing

    If you look at the efforts worldwide to assess infection rates in populations, they are all saying the same thing.  Some use PCR testing, some use antibody testing.  It all adds up to a large population of asymptomatic positives, a very high R0, and - I believe - a CFR well below 1.  That's my best guess based on all I've seen.

    [There is also strong evidence - at least to me - that this virus seems to do poorly in hot and humid climates.  For some reason, death rates in these areas appear to be low, as are visible infection rates.  The details will only be known for sure long after the fact.]

    You can quibble with the quality of individual testing efforts, but the overall picture that appears is remarkably consistent.

    Sure, bending the curve so hospitals don't get swamped - that makes sense.  We did that.  Now let's declare victory and go home.  If infections rise - so what?  Hospitals aren't swamped, and this thing is so infectious, at this stage, there is no hope of stopping it.  Not in the wider society anyway.

    Early treatment?  You bet.  Test and test and test.  Anyone with the sniffles gets tested, and then dosed with our works-mostly HCQ remedy, with zinc added.  I'm all for that.  Early treatment may well prevent that lung damage from happening.  But pretending we can stop it?  Not.  Gonna.  Happen.  Individually, sure.  You may be rich or prepared enough to shelter in place.  But that won't work society-wide.  The vast majority are not rich (Pelosi!) or prepared enough (PP members) - that's just how it is.

    I strongly believe that a depression (caused by a long lockdown) will kill a lot more people than this particular corona virus.

    I also think China would be very happy to have us do just this.  They over-reacted, and now they want us to do exactly the same thing too.

    I think Sweden's approach will be shown to be correct - for their overall society.  After the fact.

    And the fun part?  The Internet Is Forever.  All of our comments will still be around.  We can see, 10 years from now, just how close each of us was to "the truth" of what was going down.

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  • Fri, Apr 24, 2020 - 3:39am

    Mpup

    Mpup

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    Nice study but for the WRONG reason.

    This study in the NEJM shows pregnant women just as likely to get Covid and the percentage of people with the disease is much higher than thought. DUH    The large majority have mild or no symptoms.  Why the heck aren't they studying what is intrinsic in the immune system of pregnant women that keeps them from having severe cases?  They focus the study on how many have the disease not the really important aspect.  Nearly 88% were asymptomatic virtually all mild cases.  Hard to believe they interpret the study for the wrong reasons?

    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2009316?query=featured_coronavirus

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  • Fri, Apr 24, 2020 - 3:42am

    #75

    AKGrannyWGrit

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2011

    Posts: 1047

    1

    Population Infection Testing - Not

    Gosh Dave I agree with almost everything you said with the exception of  testing.  Those in power couldn’t get it together to test in the beginning of the Pandemic.  It was allowed to enter our country and run rampant and now the excuse is lets make up and test late in the game.  Maybe that was the plan all along.  With enough fear and pain people will give up their rights to their own bodies and agree to be tested for whatever and whenever and be injected with anything those in power wants.  Your body is now owned by “officials” and the government (big pharma).  No thanks, I am not interested in testing of any kind.  Its not needed. The virus will become endemic.

    And the well being of the people was handled very badly.  People are going to run out of money and food and hope and be pissed.  Especially when they figure out it was bailouts for the rich and oppression for the poor.  After that I suspect there will be a few transformers, dams, bridges, and unexpected targets from people who have had enough.  The obsession with the virus will quickly change.  Granny’s prediction.  And we thought people were unprepared for a Pandemic, wait until they figure out what they are really unprepared for. We are only at the beginning of an era of pain.

    Or we can listen to the music and the wizards pronouncements of the best is yet to come.  Which do you see?

     

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  • Fri, Apr 24, 2020 - 3:48am

    #76

    AKGrannyWGrit

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Feb 06 2011

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    Mpup

    Thats easy.  Most all pregnant women take pre-natal vitamins.

    There is no money in preventing the disease with nutrition and supplementation.

    My 2 cents.

    AKGrannyWGrit

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  • Fri, Apr 24, 2020 - 4:05am

    Mpup

    Mpup

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    Joined: Mar 01 2020

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    1

    Changing my vitamin regimen

    Akgwg, guess it's time to change my vitamin regimen  🙂   IMO they need to understand what is intrinsic in the innate immune system of pregnant women that naturally prevents them from having severe cases.  Whatever that is, I want some of it.....without the pregnancy 🙂

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  • Fri, Apr 24, 2020 - 4:40am

    DaveDD

    DaveDD

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    5

    Re: Nice study but for the WRONG reason.

    Hi Mpup,

    Apart from the reason AKGrannyWGrit gave: women are biologically stronger than men until their menopause. Why? Their immune system is tailored to ensure that she and the unborn child (in that order) have the highest likelihood to survive. Nature is really badass!

    So I'm afraid that this advantage is solely for women, and especially for pregnant women. Men are, biologically, really the weaker sex. I tell this often to my wife: it is better if they do the hard labor and let us men play with cars, sports and drink beers, we are just sooo sensitive...

     

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  • Fri, Apr 24, 2020 - 5:53am

    davefairtex

    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 03 2008

    Posts: 2187

    2

    testing

    Granny-

    Uh, I didn't say anywhere that the testing would be involuntary.  Only voluntary.  Only if you have sniffles and you WANT to be tested.  Nobody gets thrown up against the wall and has a swab shoved up their nostril.  Not in my plan anyway.

    Just have rapid testing available for anyone who wants it.  Which wasn't the case at the start.  Test, and rapidly treat - the willing.  This isn't China.

    I mean, I guess I thought it was obvious, but now I see I wasn't clear.

    If you make testing involuntary, and you make quarantine-if-positive involuntary, then everyone with the sniffles will avoid testing at all costs, due to human nature.  If, like Iceland, you make it an option open to everyone, and then you just rely on people to be good citizens and self-quarantine if they test positive, (and to accept treatment if they would like to have it - and make it free), then everyone feels quite comfortable to get tested, because there is no downside.  And - up to them if they want to accept the free treatment.

    This is why the ... stupid CCP approach will never work long term.  They are pushing against basic human nature.  Which is just guaranteed to fail.  And it costs a whole lot more energy while you're doing it, too.

    Iceland rules.  If only it weren't so freaking cold...

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  • Fri, Apr 24, 2020 - 6:50am

    #80
    Mohammed Mast

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    Question for Chris

    I asked way back at the beginning of this thread about the reporting and how big pharma operates. Still have not gotten a response. Seems to me a kinda important question for someone here who is in the best position to answer, (a former VP at Pfizer)

    Have not gotten a response. Oh well he must be too busy, or?

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  • Fri, Apr 24, 2020 - 6:56am

    #81

    AKGrannyWGrit

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    Testing - we get a choice, well that’s different.

    It would be nice to choose whether to walk on the bike trail or actually ride a bike. Wouldn’t it!

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  • Fri, Apr 24, 2020 - 7:41am

    #82

    AKGrannyWGrit

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    Maybe

    Maybe Pfizer is partially owned by the Clintons and he is afraid of nail-guns.

    Or??

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  • Fri, Apr 24, 2020 - 9:34am

    #83
    Ejh237

    Ejh237

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    "many more cases"... is this legit?

    https://apple.news/ALUeO2VrdS4m7y2Q2461bag

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-serology/los-angeles-coronavirus-infections-40-times-greater-than-known-cases-antibody-tests-suggest-idUSKBN22234S

     

    I keep hearing "many many more have it" from so many sources.  Thoughts?

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  • Fri, Apr 24, 2020 - 10:34am

    stoneman

    Status: Member

    Joined: Aug 25 2010

    Posts: 7

    4

    New Serology testing

    The Abbott Celex test is now on line at our hospital and other sites.

    Our in house assay I'm told should be rolled out next week.

    Both require a blood draw - the point of care tests are more prone to technical problems, and thus wont have the PPV of an ELISA test run on high throughput robotics.

    Your point is well taken Chris. A truly broad representative needs to be obtained...personally Id give everyone who participated a gift certificate of some kind to entice them out of their spidey holes...

    Cheers, stay well, stay safe and continue to wear masks!

    As an aside, I had to raise a big stink with the American Council on Science and Health to buck the CDC and finally start recommending masks for everyone...of course they finally changed course maybe a day or two before CDC recommendations changed. What a farce (the CDC!).

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  • Fri, Apr 24, 2020 - 6:50pm

    #85
    cherylmcg

    cherylmcg

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    1

    Picking apart risk of male Ria drug

    I am noticing after watching your daily reports on cob-19 I don’t understand why you are focusing on pre-virus toxic/risk human health issues. Why wouldn’t the impact of this drug be different when the patient has cov-19? It seems you have some attitude which seems a bit more focus on proving the safety of this drug vs it’s risks. The first or second study you referenced in your video tonight (studies of cov-19 patience treated with the drug) included a Federal database of findings which you or anyone else reading the study could investigate! You claim the studies find no deaths associated with the drug but those studies you referenced are all pre-virus studies!!!! The studies referenced after virus which are the relevant findings. The relevant studies state a 40% increased risk or deaths from heart impacts from the drug. Finally, the health organizations only state that more studies are needed and only applications of this drug should be used in hospital settings under doctor supervision or on clinical trials. You do appear somewhat irrelatoional tonight!! You use highly derogatory language which I find odd.

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  • Fri, Apr 24, 2020 - 8:29pm

    #86
    Sandrob

    Sandrob

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    Sandrob said:

    Chris,

    reducing the hydroxychloroquine discourse to U.S. politics might lead you onto a wrong track.

    Over here in Europe, HCQ is widely evaluated (see EU Clinical Trials Register), too, but it is not yet approved for clinical use against COVID-19. Most of the clinical trials simply have not released results yet, so government authorities can not give general recommendations based on sufficient data. Think Thalidomide/Contergan, it's precipitated approval, and the horrible outcome in pregnancies.

    Back to the topic at hand. For example, the Robert Koch Institut (RKI) in Germany recommends HCQ only a) within clinical trials, b) in an individual emergency use situation ("Individueller Heilversuch"), and c) in off label use (source, PDF file in German). The reason given is that there is insufficient data.

    The 'Bundesamt für Arzneimittel und Medizinprodukte' (BfArM), a German regulatory government authority, discusses HCQ in-depth, including side effects and referencing several [meta] studies (source, in German). They also do not give a recommendation and advise against using HCQ together with Azithromycin.

    Assuming that the German case reports are credible (relatively low mortality rate, relatively high recovery rate), the way HCQ and Azithromycin is handled seems not necessarily to stop success in treating COVID-19 patients.

    So if you suspect political foul play and/or bad science, Europe would also be infestated by it.

    However, the BfArM website might give a pointer of what's really going on as it discusses

    Considering these anticipated and existing shortages, maybe the facemask story simply repeats itself. As long as there isn't sufficient supply, wearing masks is bad for the general public. Maybe U.S. government agencies will change their assessment for HCQ, too, if there is enough HCQ supply at some point in the future.

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  • Sat, Apr 25, 2020 - 1:38am

    #87
    albacore

    albacore

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    The VA study IS evidence...

    The VA study IS evidence, but is not the gold standard evidence we need.

    Chris, I think you are going overboard on this. The VA study doesn’t claim to be a rigorous scientific trial, and calls out the need for proper trials. But that stuff takes time. Was it wrong for them to study some actual treatments from the field, to see if any conclusions can be drawn? It seems to me that they were upfront about what they were doing, and are not over-claiming.
    I wonder if you would have had the same response to their paper if you hadn’t read all the media reports first. One of your earlier slides talked about studies purporting to be definitive. I don’t see the VA study doing this, far from it. We need to distinguish between the research evidence and the media brouhaha, else we risk being sucked into the same mire.

    I think you may be getting pulled into that fray. It seems to me that you want to throw rocks at weaker studies that show less effect for HCQ, but give a pass to e.g. Dr Didier, who seems not to even accept the need for randomised trials.

    (Another thing that niggles: you attack some published studies for not mentioning zinc but, AFAIK, Dr Didier doesn’t even use zinc, and claims fabulous results. )

    There clearly has been a bandwagon rolling for HCQ, based on anecdotal evidence and politics (and a backlash against the bandwagon based on a mixture of politics and good honest scepticism). We need proper trials, but in the meantime we should seek and consider any evidence with an open mind.
    As it is, I think you are showing some confirmation bias towards HCQ. Most things identified early as promising treatments will likely turn out to be ineffective, that seems to be the usual pattern, so consider the possibility that the scepticism isn’t driven purely by political biases.

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  • Sat, Apr 25, 2020 - 2:18am

    #88
    albacore

    albacore

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    Finding things that work is likely to take some time

    My ground assumption here (as far as I am aware) is that finding stuff that works isn’t easy. We may be lucky that something will fall into our laps, but don’t count on it.
    Please check out Derek Lowe’s blog, In The Pipeline: https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/04/24/the-order-of-battle

    For some historical perspective, here’s an interesting bit from Pale Rider, Laura Spinney’s useful and readable book on the so-called Spanish Flu:

    ”..many of those who suffered from Spanish flu also had to contend with the effects of overdosing of the substances that doctors gave them to try to ameliorate their symptoms. Quinine, for example, was a known treatment for malaria and other ‘bilious fevers of a paludic nature’. There was no evidence that it worked for flu, yet it was prescribed in large doses.”

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  • Sat, Apr 25, 2020 - 5:47am

    #89
    drsabeti64@yahoo.com

    [email protected]

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    Joined: Apr 12 2020

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    2

    Corona and chloroquine

    Dear Chris
    Im a clinician working in Iran Tehran.
    As you surlely know my country is the first epicenter of virus distribution and catastrophy after China!
    Its well over two months that all patients diagnosed or suspicious of having corona infection have been treated by chloroquine?!
    Despite all oversealous treatment with this drug and other presumably anti viral drugs the rate of fatality had been unbelievably high especially in health workers.
    So I could never believe any beneficial role for chloroquine or antiviral drugs for this new disease. Although I respect and appriciate your enthusiasm for finding a simple way to battle the disease but!or however! There is no evidence based data to support your conclusions! about treating the virus!
    I really appriciate your scrutiny and intelligence toward finding a truthful solution.
    Keep safe
    Truly
    Farahmand Sabeti MD.

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  • Sat, Apr 25, 2020 - 6:24am

    Oliveoilguy

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Jun 29 2012

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    What was the protocol?

    Did your hospitals use HCQ alone or with other drugs? What drugs specifically? When in the disease progression was this given?  Details of treatment would be helpful.

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  • Sat, Apr 25, 2020 - 7:20am

    #91
    Taren D

    Taren D

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    Coronavirus: Bad Science (or Something Worse?)

    We have been watching Dr. Martenson's coronavirus videos and appreciating all the good information provided for several weeks now.  But here is the "however" regarding cardiac risk with hydroxychloroquine.  I agree that some of the so called expert conclusions that have been published about it being risky are woefully lacking on data.  But while Chris presented the safety records over the last several decades for hydroxychloroquine alone, is there similar data supporting the safety of the combination of hydroxychloroquine & azithromycin?  As a person who was in active atrial fibrillation until after having two heart catheter ablations, I was warned about not taking Z-Pak due to the risk of heart arrhythmias.  Is it possible that the combination of the two drugs is enough to push COVID-19 patients into dangerous cardiac arrhythmias or cardiac arrest?  Until we see the hard data on clinical trials of the combination of these two drugs, should we reserve judgment on using it widely as a treatment?

    https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1161/CIRCEP.115.003560

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  • Sat, Apr 25, 2020 - 8:15am

    stevedaly

    stevedaly

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    Early administration of Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ)

    How are we going to protect Americans if we force them to wait until they are admitted to a hospital before they can have access to the life saving HCQ?  Isn't Dr. Martenson saying that the HCQ breaches the coronavirus cell membrane and allows zinc to destroy the virus?  Shouldn't this be initiated as early as possible?  Before hospitalization?  From a personal anecdotal situation I can stop a cold whenever I'm able to nuc it early with vitamin C, whereas starting treatment later doesn't necessarily work.

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  • Sat, Apr 25, 2020 - 8:55am

    #93
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Joined: May 17 2017

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    HCQ FWIW

    Purely anecdotal and unscientific. I have posted this before but it seems appropriate to post it again.

    A month or so ago I went to see my Dermatologist. I asked him what he was hearing about the virus. (not specifically about HCQ) The first words out of his mouth were he was hearing good things about HCQ. He then proceeded to say " the news reports are bullshit" his exact words. Never heard bullshit in a doctor's office before. He told me HCQ is one of the safest drugs around and he has been using it in his practice for decades. (It has a number of uses in dermatology)

    Fast forward 2 weeks ago I went to see my Cardiologist for my yearly. I have had Afib, which just happens to be a comorbidity of SC2. I have had a cardioversion, used a number of heart medications and almost 2 years ago had a cardio ablation. I am in sinus rhythm. Checkup was fine and we spent 1/2 hour talking about the virus. I asked him specifically about HCQ. He said there is not enough data. I then asked him "what else ya got?" He then offered to write me a scrip for HCQ. Bottom line: I do not have Afib now, my cardiologist did not once mention any issues with HCQ and the heart and knowing about my history had no issue with me taking it. Make of that what you will.

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  • Sat, Apr 25, 2020 - 10:31am

    #94
    richcabot

    richcabot

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    Good analogy

    Saying HCQ doesn't cure COVID19 based on the VA study is like saying cleaning wounds with hydrogen peroxide is pointless based on a study of people with sepsis.  We cleaned the wound when the leg went gangrene and they all died anyway!  Cleaning the wound when the person was first cut? Why would you do that?

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  • Sat, Apr 25, 2020 - 11:55am

    DLWELD

    DLWELD

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    another analogy

    Yeah, sort of like testing the efficacy of seatbelts, by clicking and putting them on after an accident. Conclusion, backed by numbers - they don't help at all. Makes it painfully clear how misguided it is to test a preventative medicine expecting it to be curative.

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  • Sat, Apr 25, 2020 - 12:31pm

    #96
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Addendum

    In regards to heart issues with Zpack, I came back from India mid Feb. 3 days later has bronchitis. I did my usual herbs and spices but nothing touched it. I decided i did not want to have bronchitis with the virus going around, so I went to urgent care and called in the big guns. I was prescribed Zpack with no problem even though I had a history of Afib. My heart was unaffected. This is not to say someone else wouldn't be as well.  From talking to my cardio  it seems as if you are not in Afib either chronically or intermittently then you do not have Afib.

    "Patients at particular risk for developing this condition include those with known risk factors such as existing QT interval prolongation, low blood levels of potassium or magnesium, a slower-than-normal heart rate, or use of certain drugs used to treat abnormal heart rhythms or arrhythmias," the FDA said in a March 12 drug safety communication(www.fda.gov). "FDA has issued a (warning) as a result of our review of a study by medical researchers, as well as another study by a manufacturer of the drug, that assessed the potential for azithromycin to cause abnormal changes in the electrical activity of the heart."

    https://www.aafp.org/news/health-of-the-public/20130315azithromycin-risk.html

    My suggestion is if you have had heart issues, go get an EKG, consult with a cardio and see what your particular risks are right now. As well my suggestion is to consult with your doctor to see what the protocol is in regards to testing, treatment and hospital admissions. Knowing all of this ahead of time may save you a lot of grief in the future should you rub elbows with the SARS COV 2 virus. It is as important as growing a garden.

    A good point is, what does the combination of the 2 drugs do in vivo? I doubt there has been a study to find out .  In looking up drugs that interact with it Plaquenil is not mentioned but the list is incomplete. It has been around for 4 decades so I would have to believe it has crossed paths with Plaquenil a number of times before now.

    What we have aside from no clinical trials is the fact that Dr.s the world over are using this combo and so far I have not heard of issues with the combination. Interestingly Zpack has been used to treat malaria.

    My position is should I despite all the precautions I am taking contract SARS COV 2, I will take that treatment immediately. Fortunately I know for certain I have at least one Dr. on my team that will prescribe it for me.

    Given the choice between testing positive and being told to go home and come back if it gets worse or taking Plaquenil, Zpack and zinc?  It's a no brainer for me. This virus is a nasty.

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  • Sat, Apr 25, 2020 - 1:56pm

    #97
    Time2help

    Time2help

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    Body count doesn't matter. Narrative control is all that does.

    FBI is conducting a raid at Allure Medical in Shelby Township (WXYZ ABC 7 Detroit)

    "SHELBY TOWNSHIP, Mich. (WXYZ) — The FBI is conducting a raid at Allure Medical in Shelby Township. Police confirm to 7 Action News they are assisting the feds with the raid.

    It's located on 26 Mile Rd. and Van Dyke in Shelby Township. The FBI confirms the raid is in connection to a questionable treatment for coronavirus that was being offered at the center.

    This is the first raid of its kind raid in Michigan over a purported treatment for COVID-19.

    The FBI said it is a task force operation with the Department of Health and Human Services and the FBI. Agents participating in the raid are wearing special protection because of possible risk of exposure to coronavirus.

    They’re gathering boxes of evidence, documents, etc. Agents arrived just after 8 a.m.

    Allure has recently promoted that it is treating COVID-19 patients who aren't hospitalized using intravenous vitamin C therapy "with great results."

    In a press release sent out to news stations last week, Allure said that Dr. Charles Mok, the founder of Allure Medical, is providing the high-dose intravenous vitamin C therapy to all essential workers in Michigan, saying that it is being used in hospitals around the country."

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  • Sat, Apr 25, 2020 - 5:50pm

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Posts: 779

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    A Raid for Vit C???????

    If this is real this is getting out of hand.

    They are asking for trouble.

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  • Sun, Apr 26, 2020 - 4:54am

    #99
    albacore

    albacore

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    Bad science or something worse?

    @Chris Martenson

    Just watched the latest video.
    You admit that this is driving you a bit crazy, and it looks to me like confirmation bias in your attitude towards the evidence for or against HCQ. I may be the same, in the other direction!

    You describe the VA study as garbage - it’s not that, it’s a data point, with limited use. Yet other studies of limited use (e.g. Dr Raoult’s) get a pass, at least in most recent mentions. I the latest video you say (I’m paraphrasing) “we know serum treatment works”. Something similar for HCQ? Do we? We don’t have much in the way of good quality studies either way.
    You focus strongly on the partisanship that is attached to the scepticism around HCQ, but don’t seem to recognise that it’s there in the other direction too.

    The only thing that’s going to resolve this is good research. This makes things very awkward in the meantime, as clinicians try to feel their way with unproven, but more or less promising, treatments.

    On side effects. Surely the crucial thing (not in prophylactic use, perhaps) is how any treatment interacts with disease. A safe drug in normal circumstances might be less so with this particular illness. You have previously highlighted cardiac issues with honey badger, so I can understand any clinician being cautious. Isn’t that potentially indicated in that Brazilian study with CQ?

    I would rather see you evaluate each study in the same way. How strong is the evidence? What does it tell us about treatment?

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  • Sun, Apr 26, 2020 - 10:00am

    sand_puppy

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 2436

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    A Bug's Life--lessons from the little people on dealing with oppression

    As many here know, I come from an assumption that the oligarchy is up to no good and do not have the well being of the little people in mind.  Found a great clip from the animated movie "A Bug's Life" where the little Ants realize that they can repel the domination of far Bigger and Stronger Grasshoppers.

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  • Sun, Apr 26, 2020 - 11:19am

    Taren D

    Taren D

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    Posts: 3

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    Taren D said:

    As a Michigander, I don't agree with everything Governor Whitmer does, but I think she has handled this COVID-19 pandemic crisis as well as any other governor or federal official has.  In fact, at least she explains the steps she has taken logically based on the data, unlike Trump who has bungled every aspect of this crisis.  How so, you ask?  First by denying it, second by downplaying it, third by not creating an effective task force with a clear command and control mechanism, fourth by punting all responsibility back to the individual states who don't have the authority needed to deal with a national emergency or to leverage a national supply and testing strategy, and fifth by making the news cycle all about him instead of all Americans who are impacted by his poor decisions on a daily basis.

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  • Sun, Apr 26, 2020 - 1:00pm

    tkl

    tkl

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    chloroquine not working in Teheran

    One thing these discussions don't seem to take into account is that there are different strands of virus.

    I am in Central Europe with very few cases and minimal fatalities. Nobody is dropping dead in the street. Symptoms are mostly flu-like, some people don't treat it at all and are fine in a few days. Many doctors all over Europe use chloroquine with excellent results. In my village people are outdoors a lot. Most only wear a nose/mouth cover when going to the shop where it is mandatory. Tomorrow, we are already relaxing the lock-down nationwide.

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