Video Description

Time for some good news. Listen in to hear about how a remarkable young woman has crafted a beautiful life of meaning and purpose. Erica, Chris’s daughter, has carved out a unique life of simplicity, community and beauty. A life many are aspiring towards.




Chris Martenson: Hello everyone, Dr. Chris Martenson of Peak Prosperity here. We have a very special interview for you today. And a lot of you wonder about what's my life like? What's it been like? And all the time, we get questions about how are the younger generations processing everything that we talk about?  


So you're in for a treat, and we've got to, to kill two birds with that one stone today. And today, we have Erica Martenson with us today. Erica, there is a rumor going around that we are related.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah you can't tell. 


Chris Martenson: Is is there any truth to this rumor? 


Erica Martenson: There's some truth. 


Chris Martenson: Is there? 


Erica Martenson: There's some truth. 


Chris Martenson: Really, tell us about that? How do you, how do you process that rumor?  


Erica Martenson: Well, I was thinking on on my drive over, I was like, "Well, wat are the stories people would actually like to hear about Chris Martenson?" What was it like being his daughter? What was it like growing up in his house?  


And and it's fun because I can, kind of, segment my childhood into all these different chapters. So there's the the mystic segment where, if we were living a very different…. 


Chris Martenson: Mystic, Connecticut –  


Erica Martenson: Mystic, Connecticut. 


Chris Martenson: – Not not, not Mystic, but the practice. 


Erica Martenson: Not Mystic, the _____ [00:01:08], no, not yet anyways. 


Chris Martenson: Not yet –  


Erica Martenson: We. 


Chris Martenson: – Foreshadowing. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: I like it. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah, yeah a little foreshadowing there. But so there's the, yeah, the Mystic chapter where we were just living the, kind of, American Dream, quote-unquote. And but I was thinking, the transition into a very different lifestyle is is where the story really gets interesting.  


Chris Martenson: Sure so –  


Erica Martenson: – For me, anyways. 


Chris Martenson: – Alright, well, we'll backfill with those cool stories but so people have context –? 


Erica Martenson: Sure. 


Chris Martenson: – What's your life like today? Well, explain, like, are you an account executive working in Boston selling Nike shoes?  


Erica Martenson: Yeah, actually, that was, I tried to go down that route. They didn't like me because I don't own any clothes that don't have holes in them. So I didn't fit in there. But no, so I live on a farm in Western Massachusetts. I live in a tiny house that I like to say my partner and I built, but he did 98% of it.  


So I helped, I held the windows while he was installing them. And I live a, just really beautiful, simple life. There's, we've got cows, we've got sheep on the farm there. We've got chickens. We've got a big veggie garden. 


And I feel really lucky that I, obviously, I'm not doing it alone; I've got my partner there and then there's another couple that lives there with us. And so it's not, it's not a solo operation there. 


Chris Martenson: No you make it sound like the four of you. Every time I've been there, there's, it seems to be like a dozen people.  


Erica Martenson: Well, we're nestled within a much, a more robust community so –  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: – There, it really is. That's one of my favorite things about living there is that you walk outside and there's always some neighbor coming by. Or it feels very like, like, another era, maybe like the '70s or '80s or something where, like, neighborhood kids are just biking by, and one of them has his fishing pole.  


Like, he's, like, trying to balance it as he's biking. And so it's it's, it's beautiful. And that's, honestly, my favorite part about it.  


Chris Martenson: So in many respects, you're you're, actually, living a life that's indistinguishable from The Little House in the prairie series.  


Erica Martenson: Well, yes, there was –  


Chris Martenson: Sort of. 


Erica Martenson: – Some foreshadowing there, too, as you know, I was deeply obsessed as a child to put it lightly. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: And I was lucky because I, my best friends were just as nerdy and obsessed as I was. So we would dress up in our little aprons and, overalls, and would go outside, and just; I mean, we would play for hours, and hours, and hours. And just, kind of, in this imaginal world, which now is, I'm essentially living –  


Chris Martenson: So you –? 


Erica Martenson: – As an adult. 


Chris Martenson: – You have a cow.  


Erica Martenson: I do.  


Chris Martenson: Do you milk the cow? 


Erica Martenson: I do milk the cow milk. 


Chris Martenson: You milk the cow. 


Erica Martenson: Although I'm not milking her right now because she's pregnant so. 


Chris Martenson: Okay. 


Erica Martenson: There will be milking, though –  


Chris Martenson: And when you get the –? 


Erica Martenson: – Later in the year.  


Chris Martenson: – Milk, what what do you do with the milk?  


Erica Martenson: Well, we went through a very deep dive into cheese making last year. And so we were making mozzarella, and Gouda, and cheddar. And we're really just getting –  


Chris Martenson: And how did those turn out? 


Erica Martenson: – Into that whole world. They are so good. They are so good.  


Chris Martenson: I have never made cheese.  


Erica Martenson: Okay. 


Chris Martenson: If it's –  


Chris Martenson: – We'll have to do that sometime.  


Chris Martenson: – It sounds difficult.  


Erica Martenson: It's not. It's actually way more simple than you think. And it's the most amazing, like, tiny, little minute differences in the heat of the water. Or how much rennet you add will create an entirely different cheese. It's the coolest thing.  


Chris Martenson: I always –  


Erica Martenson: It's like magic. 


Chris Martenson: – I always thought, like, you go to get a Gouda, a mozzarella or or a cheddar.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: There must have been, like, different bacteria or yeast or something involved, but no? 


Erica Martenson: No. 


Chris Martenson: It's just the processing? 


Erica Martenson: It's just the process and just tiny, little differences will create a totally different cheese. And that's where it's tricky because I, I'm learning out of books and off of YouTube. And so it's a gamble every single time, but so far –  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: – It has paid off.  


Chris Martenson: Alright, so so you've made cheese, you've raised animals. Do you process your own animals?  


Erica Martenson: We do. Yep so we raised pigs last year, which are now in the freezer. And it's just, like, the most delicious pork I've ever eaten in my life. We do, we've done meat birds. We have a cow who will probably end up in the freezer.  


Chris Martenson: This was, this was your cow's – 


Erica Martenson: Baby.  


Chris Martenson: – Baby. 


Erica Martenson: Yes.  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: And that one, I mean, raising your animals, it's like, it's not easy. Because you really do –  


Chris Martenson: No. 


Erica Martenson: – Build these relationships with them, and you really love them. And and I think that's part of what makes it that much more meaningful when you do actually end up eating them. Because it's, like, there is this actual connection to it that –  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: – You just have this deeper appreciation for it that you just don't get from a McDonald's hamburger.  


Chris Martenson: So the tiny home, a lot of people dream about that; you actually built one. And we're going to insert some pictures from that over this particular section right here. How do you like it?  


Erica Martenson: I love it. I absolutely love it. I mean I feel like I was, kind of, prepared for it over my life. We, I grew up going to this island off the coast of Maine where it was log cabin, and no running water, no electricity. So living in a tiny house that does have running water and electricity feels like palatial. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: The lap of luxury. 


Chris Martenson: Well, and it sounds like roughing it but the island in Maine is is anything but roughing it. 


Erica Martenson: Yes.  


Chris Martenson: Even though it doesn't have running water or electricity, right –? 


Erica Martenson: God. 


Chris Martenson: – It's it's just, it's just a way of living. And so one of those stories from childhood, I remember, we were in the midst of one of our many third world experiences here in America where our power was out in Montague, Massachusetts. And it was out for like a five day stretch, and then most people are paralyzed, right?  


They start smelling by day two because they haven't been able to shower and things are happening. And I remember a friend of mine came over. It's pitch dark in our house, there's, we have some, some hurricane lanterns lit. And you kids are are busy doing dishes in the sink.  


And he, and he's, like, "What, what's happening? How did she –?" What happened? How are you doing dishes? And so we just did what we did at the island, right? And you kids, like –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah. 


Chris Martenson: " – Okay somebody heated up some water." 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: You can do that even without a functioning stove, right? 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: There's a way to heat water. And you just get a couple of bin, and but the fact was, you were all just doing that. And the dishes were getting done and it wasn't like a –  


Erica Martenson: "Shit." 


Chris Martenson: – Thing. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah yeah. 


Chris Martenson: It wasn't a moment –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – It was –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah. 


Chris Martenson: – Just happening.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: And that was magic to this person, they're, like, "My gosh, how, what?" It was like, they were looking into, like, a an advanced culture.  


Erica Martenson: Right right, well, that's what's so cool, is, like, getting up, and growing up, like, learning those, like, very basic skills. It's, like, when you're, when you encounter a problem like that, it's, like, "I, the solution is just in me." 


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: There's not a panic moment of, "I have to solve this." It's just, like, "Okay, I'll just go pump some water from the well, and whatever, build fire, whatever." 


Chris Martenson: So now in your life, too, you, we mentioned, sort of, the physical aspects and some animals. What about, what's your friend group like? Are you an outlier in your friend group of being, living in a tiny home and and farming?  


Erica Martenson: Well, no, I mean, it's. Yeah I do, I definitely live in a subculture that is very different from the mainstream. I was laughing about this the other day with a friend where we were, like, "I don't think I know a single person my age who is doing the kind of traditional 9:00 to 5:00 office job."  


Like, everybody is either – I have a friend who is running rites of passage for teenage boys. I have a friend who's deep into mushroom cultivation and has a mushroom cultivation business. And friends who are farmers and friends who are really growing into, like, trades, carpentry, and electricity, or electricians.  


And so but yeah, we were cracking up, we were, like, "I literally cannot think of a single person who I'm, like, close with in my life, who's choosing that route." 


Chris Martenson: Yeah, is that unusual, do you think? Is this just like a, you belong to an unusual subculture or? 


Erica Martenson: I I mean, I think so. I'm pretty, so I'll, this is like sacrilegious in this day and age, but I, literally, I don't have Wi-Fi in my house. I do not own a laptop. So I, I'm not super plugged into the mainstream, but I would guess that it's pretty rare.  


But I do think that there is, it feels like there's, like, a a movement towards that way of life that feels like there's some, sort of, hunger for that or longing for it. 


Chris Martenson: Well, the the feedback I get is that a lot of people are hungering for exactly the details of your life, right? Which is you're, you're learning skills, you're doing things. You have a tendency to just figure stuff out.  


Erica Martenson: Am I not allowed to swear on this?  


Chris Martenson: No you, we can swear –  


Erica Martenson: Okay. 


Chris Martenson: You you figure shit out. Okay? Fine.  


Erica Martenson: Okay.  


Chris Martenson: So. 


Erica Martenson: It was, like, "God." 


Chris Martenson: No it's not like that. 


Erica Martenson: I could have sworn, like, 20 times already, probably.  


Chris Martenson: No don't worry about it. We're amongst friends and family. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah yeah. 


Chris Martenson: So let let's, but I I get the sense that a lot of – so I get e-mails all the time. So let me tell you about one I just got, I haven't responded to yet. 


Erica Martenson: Whatever. 


Chris Martenson: The guy says, "Hey, I'm 26 years old, and I can't do this thing anymore," which is probably the 9:00 to 5:00 job. He's in LA, threw himself out there and said, "I don't really have any skills but I know I desperately need them." Is there any place for me on on your farm that I have going here?  


And and so, I think, I get e-mails like that all the time, people are looking for two things. They're looking for a set of, a a way to apply themselves to this new future they think is coming. And they think it involves new skills beyond being an account executive at Nike, or whatever they're doing. Right, and secondarily, they're looking for community.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah. 


Chris Martenson: Those are both things I am positive you have, in spades at this point in time. How did that happen? 


Erica Martenson: I mean, yeah, I've been, I've thought about this. And it's, like, it wasn't a, for me anyways, it wasn't really a conscious choice. I think so much of it was the way I was raised and where I was raised.  


And so it just, kind of, organically unfolded where I was, like, "I I knew from age eight that I wasn't interested in some, sort of, office job or computer work. Or it was just, it was, I I knew that that wasn't my calling. And I wonder if it's anyone's actual calling but maybe it is. 


Chris Martenson: No I think increasingly not, the data says that after millions and millions of people had to stay home because of the pandemic, they're not going back to work. So right now, we have these massive worker shortages. It turns out, people don't want to come back to their jobs. 


Erica Martenson: You've got a taste –  


Chris Martenson: – Yeah as truckers –  


Erica Martenson: – Of something different. 


Chris Martenson: – As nurses –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – As whatever it is so so –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – A lot of what we're experiencing in terms of the shortages which we can talk about in a bit, which are pandemic and in in our country right now is because they just can't get people to work. Those poor fast food restaurants who were, like, "How come we can't hire people back at $8.00 an hour?" 


Erica Martenson: Yeah right. 


Chris Martenson: Probably because they're earning –  


Erica Martenson: I wonder why? 


Chris Martenson: – Eighteen to stay home. So you're not; that's not going to work out but but. 


Erica Martenson: Right, they don't want to go to work and be, like, abused – 


Chris Martenson: No. 


Erica Martenson: "– All day, weird. 


Chris Martenson: No it's weird. 


Erica Martenson: It's so weird. 


Chris Martenson: And and it's, it's even beyond just the the strict pay. You need pay to survive, I guess. But it's the soul destroying aspect of the jobs that are meaningless and purposeless.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: As the, that's the –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – Main problem. I think, once people got enough separation from that, they're like, "I ain't going back." 


Erica Martenson: Right. 


Chris Martenson: Once you break the illusion, it's over, baby.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah. 


Chris Martenson: It's like –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – You don't want it.  


Erica Martenson: Yep it's the the fish and water thing. And now, you've gotten a chance to be out of it, and see the water. It's like, "Fuck, I don't want to be back in that, " Like, of course, of course.  


Chris Martenson: Yeah.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: Alright so you knew from an early age, maybe not an office job. But I was working an office job when you were eight, so. Yeah. I didn't make it look that appealing? 


Erica Martenson: Yes you did. It didn't look awesome.  


Chris Martenson: It didn't look awesome, okay. You can say more.  


Erica Martenson: Well, it's funny because we were living…. Have you ever, like, painted the picture of where we were in Mystic for people?  


Chris Martenson: Not totally.  


Erica Martenson: Okay.  


Chris Martenson: I just give them the before and after story. I had a boat, and, sort of, the corporate lifestyle, waterfront home –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – But not really painting the picture.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah. So I mean, Mystic is, like, a fairly ritzy area.  


Chris Martenson: It's a –  


Erica Martenson: Right? 


Chris Martenson: – It's a Gold Coast town, sort of, yeah. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah exactly. We were living in, how many square feet were the house, like, the house? 


Chris Martenson: Five thousand. 


Erica Martenson: That's a huge house for me living in, like, 300 square feet now, literally. So yeah, we were living in this, just like, to me, a mansion. But we never really fit in there. You know what I mean?  


Like, I, I'm thinking of this one particular photo from childhood where me and my siblings are in front of this mansion. And we are completely coated in mud from head to toe. Like, bless you and mom for trying to keep us somewhat presentable in that area because it was –  


Chris Martenson: It didn't work out. 


Erica Martenson: – A uphill battle. Yeah. So but then to to, kind of, get the taste of what that lifestyle felt like, to then transition to this farm. I mean, we moved to this tiny, little farmhouse where you could vacuum every room from the same outlet. And we started, we got chickens, and. 


Chris Martenson: I remember because, tragically, the TV got broken in the move.  


Erica Martenson: No, how did that happen? 


Chris Martenson: It got broken.  


Erica Martenson: Hey. 


Chris Martenson: It never. 


Erica Martenson: Wait, did it get broken? My God, this is, like, when you learn Santa is not real, like. 


Chris Martenson: The TV got broken and –  


Erica Martenson: Okay.. 


Chris Martenson: – Somehow, we just never quite replaced it. 


Erica Martenson: Weird.  


Chris Martenson: That was actually one of the best moves we ever made.  


Erica Martenson: Definitely, props, a nice job. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah.  


Erica Martenson: Because we, literally, were out, like me, and Simon, and Grace –  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: – We were outside all day, every day. And that was also when we transitioned to homeschooling. And I started doing these nature programs every week that completely shaped my life. I mean, I'm running nature programs now.  


Chris Martenson: So you –  


Erica Martenson: You know? 


Chris Martenson: – Say nature programs; I think a lot of people listening think, "We're gonna learn to identify oak trees."  


Erica Martenson: That's part of it.  


Chris Martenson: That's part of that. 


Erica Martenson: That's. 


Chris Martenson: But but it's more than that.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: So what, what's the nature program about, really?  


Erica Martenson: Well, when I was a kid, it was, kind of, there was a lot of that tree identification, and food, like, wild foods. A lot of bow drill and hand drill, that's, like, primitive fire technologies if folks don't know.  


There was a lot of, like, "Where do you find water on the landscape? How do you build natural shelters?" And I loved it, it was, it was just the most freeing thing to go from public school to just getting to play. And I've always been, like, a nature nerd so –  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: – That was just right up my alley. 


Chris Martenson: But for pretty deep, pretty deep skills that that go beyond just, sort of, like, sort of, the rote memorization of this, "Here's the different types of trees." 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: One of my favorite stories is is a rite of passage at a certain age of this, was to spend a night outdoors all by yourself. And they would just send you out into the woods with what you had on your back.  


And I remember, you came back from one of those. And I think it was your first one or maybe your second one. I can't remember, but the story was, you go out, and you build a debris shelter. And this is October or sometime, right? 


Erica Martenson: Yeah in Vermont. 


Chris Martenson: So it could be raining. It's in Vermont.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: I mean, you could be really cold –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – And it was a few years. So I asked you were you cold? You were, like, "No I I made a fire." Like, I thought you weren't supposed to do that. Did you bring a match with you?  


And you said, "No they didn't take my shoelaces away." So to connect those dots for people listening, it is possible to go from shoelaces to fire. How is that possible? 


Erica Martenson: That's so, I completely forgot about that. Yep. Shoelace becomes the string on the bow, which then wraps around the spindle which is, like, the upright part of the kit. And then you basically use the bow to spin that spindle really fast, you create a lot of friction.  


It creates dust in the bottom board, the fire board. That dust compacts, it gets wicked wicked hot, like, I think it's, like, 900 degrees or something in bow, for bow drill or it compresses, and it becomes a little cold.  


And then you put that into a bundle of tinder and you blow it into flames. So yeah, they didn't take my shoelaces. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah so. 


Erica Martenson: Shouldn't have taught us how to do bow drill if they didn't want us –  


Chris Martenson: So. 


Erica Martenson: – Making fire. 


Chris Martenson: I'll tell you one of my, one of my, one of my favorite stories. So so we come from a fairly traditional family. My my family has got bankers going back a long way on the Canandaigua side of this story. My grandfather was president of a bank, and his father, and his father.  


So it's a very long family lineage. And I have uncles and other family members still operating the bank. So at any rate, one of the family rites of passages was, you kids each got a small lot, allotment of this Canandaigua stock which has this thing called the dividend.  


So I remember the day clearly. And this is a story about how kids actually are absorbing more than you think. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: Right? 


Erica Martenson: My God.  


Chris Martenson: So I remember this day because for me, an important part of growing up was that day you got your first bank account. You have this little passbook and there's, like, a number in it. And it's it's an important thing, right?  


My, I remember, my mom bringing me to the bank and getting my first bank account. So I'm ready to transmit this family legacy moment, a proud moment; I sit you three kids down.  


And I think you're probably 12, eight, and six, or something like that; and you're pretty young. And so I explained the whole thing; you guys are, like, really, you love the idea of magic money showing up in the, in the mail. That sounds cool.  


And I said, "We're gonna go open bank accounts," I explained the whole bank account thing, and I just stand aside because I'm ready for all three kids to rush out the door. And we're all excited. And you just all sit there and looking at me.  


I was like, "What's wrong?" And you said, "What if the bank goes bankrupt? What happens to my money?" And then Simon in the middle says, "I'd rather have silver," and Grace said, "Yeah, me too." Yeah so I didn't realize you were all listening _____ [00:20:30] I'd railed to your mom about –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – About banks and precious metals. And I think that was the, yeah, so, so much for that family moment. Right, chirping crickets, you looked, you just looked at me like a dog listening to white noise, you're like, "Why would I put my money in the bank?" 


Erica Martenson: That sounds weird. That's, kind of, suss, I don't know. 


Chris Martenson: And so it began.  


Erica Martenson: That's so. 


Chris Martenson: So. 


Erica Martenson: And so it began, yeah. And I remember when you gave me my first piece of silver. I remember that, the Walking Liberty, it was beautiful, a coin.  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: There's just something about the the weight of it, and the sound when you flick it in the air.  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: And I just, it's, like, "This feels –" 


Chris Martenson: So let's talk.  


Erica Martenson: " – Like real money." 


Chris Martenson: Let's talk about treasure. Because one of the things I did specifically –  


Erica Martenson: Okay. 


Chris Martenson: – Raising you kids was –  


Erica Martenson: My God. 


Chris Martenson: – Making sure that nothing, whatever you got was actually burned. Right? So so there was a treasure hunt, though, that, sort of, unfolded at this island. And it was an 11-year-long trip and a treasure hunt if I have my numbers, right. 


Erica Martenson: That's correct.  


Chris Martenson: Tell us about that. 


Erica Martenson: Right. 


Chris Martenson: What do you remember about that? Because that started when you were pretty young.  


Erica Martenson: This is like, I will tell you; this is a core memory for me. This was, like, this really stuck out, the moment of finding that model, specifically. We were on a hike, right, we were on a walk with this family friends that were with us, and and…. 


Chris Martenson: On this, this fairly deserted island in Maine. 


Erica Martenson: A deserted island, we're walking. It's, like, a beautiful day, it's, like, foggy, and, yeah, we're walking along the beach. And I, well, I think it was somebody; I think it was you if you said, like, "Guys, look, there's a snake." And I think I was, like, eight; I think I was about eight years old, maybe seven.  


And my friends and I gathered around, like, "Where's the snake, Dad?" And you're, like, "It must have gone," but then you were like, "Wait, there's a bottle there buried in the side of this hill." Like, my God, and we were just over the moon.  


We were so psyched. And then we pulled it out, and it had this, like, burned, stained, and wrinkled old note in it. And that's, that led us down an – yes, you're right, 11-year-long path –  


Chris Martenson: I remember when that, when that note was found. 


Erica Martenson: – Of trying to find this…. 


Chris Martenson: My experience was that you got, you kids got so excited that your your emanations moved out of my hearing range, up into –  


Erica Martenson: Yes.  


Chris Martenson: – Like where dogs could hear.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah dogs were barking on other islands, exactly. Yeah and I, like, bless you, I do not know how you did this. How you kept it under wraps for so long?  


I mean for years, we were convinced that Bill Turret, the guy who had signed this note, the guy who had drowned off the coast of this island –  


Chris Martenson: Which is a real story. 


Erica Martenson: – A real story. This was the best friend of my great grandfather, I believe. 


Chris Martenson: You you have to root these things in in reality. 


Erica Martenson: It was a real thing, so we found it, his name. We did all of this research, and we found the stories about him in these old, like, newspaper records, and all that stuff. So we were –  


Chris Martenson: But. 


Erica Martenson: – Totally sold. 


Chris Martenson: And the note talked about treasures, I believe. 


Erica Martenson: And the note talked about treasures, so, well, I mean, that was it. We spent the next 11 summers.  


Chris Martenson: So I remember; you guys are young, you're, like, you're, like, 8, 6, and 5, 4, 2 –  


Erica Martenson: Something like that. 


Chris Martenson: Whatever, you're all young.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: And and, of course, there were the parents involved who who set this whole thing up. Like, we had to have this conversation because they really wanted to, like, "We should just show them where where this is." And I was, like, "Nope." 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: And so you guys didn't find that treasure that first year.  


Erica Martenson: We sure didn't. 


Chris Martenson: Next year, you came back. There's the little note up on the shelf, you all pulled it down. 


Erica Martenson: It's still there. 


Chris Martenson: Off you would scatter into the woods –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – Trying to decode the the messages on it. 


Erica Martenson: And for you…. 


Chris Martenson: Didn't find it the second year.  


Erica Martenson: My God, and we tried all of these different tactics to get, because, like, once we were, like, I want to say like thirteen, and you're, like, starting up –  


Chris Martenson: This is bullshit. 


Erica Martenson: – Like, "This smells like bullshit." I got you to, like – I remember this, I got you to sign something. And I compared your signature to the handwriting. And I was, like, "I got it, that it's him." 


Chris Martenson: Well, my favorite moment of trying to get, to play gotcha is all of you kids stormed in. You were pissed as hell. You were, when it's nighttime. There's a fire going, and you're all mad.  


And you said, "We're done," and you had, you took that note which was very carefully made with little –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – Burned edges, and tea stained, and –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – And you threw it into the fire, and said, "We're done with your, with your stupid story."  


Erica Martenson: That's right. 


Chris Martenson: And that was trying to get us to break. But of course, what you kids done was mocked up an exact copy of this thing. 


Erica Martenson: You better believe, I I wrote every word of that down, I burned the edges to match the other one perfectly. Like, we spent a long time staining it, and doing it so that you wouldn't see that we were pouring the tea to stain it. It was a long process and –  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: – And –  


Chris Martenson: And? 


Erica Martenson: – I think our acting skills were pretty good that day. 


Chris Martenson: They were very good. 


Erica Martenson: Because we almost got mom to crack, I –  


Chris Martenson: Almost, almost got –  


Erica Martenson: – Swear to God. 


Chris Martenson: – Mom to crack. 


Erica Martenson: We were so close. 


Chris Martenson: But but we didn't crack. 


Erica Martenson: And so another six –  


Chris Martenson: On another –  


Erica Martenson: – Years went by. 


Chris Martenson: – Year, another…. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah. 


Chris Martenson: So but every summer though, this was actually a a point of focus, was to drag that map out, and to keep looking. And we just, we just let it run. And then it was the 11th year. 


Erica Martenson: Man, it was so beautiful. We had, I think we, well, what did you use? You used some, some sort of, like, disappearing ink on the back, which –  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: – My God. Was that just lemon juice, what was that? 


Chris Martenson: Yeah it was lemon juice. 


Erica Martenson: Lemon juice okay, so we heat this thing up very delicately. I don't even remember how we figured out how to do this. Heat it up in a frying pan, like magic, these words appear that guide us to the point where we're supposed to go.  


We're freaking out because it has been 11 years to this moment and we are so, we're, like, "We are so fucking dumb. How did we not heat it up sooner?" Like, God, okay. So we go to this place –  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: – And we're tromping around. And, it's this beautiful, thick layer of moss the whole island is covered in. And we're stomping around, we're, we're looking for hours. We're, like, "I know we're in the right zone," but it's also been a long time. Like, it's probably, totally overgrown.  


Like, how the hell are we going to find this thing? And we had a friend with us who, he was stomping around, he was getting frustrated, more and more frustrated, until finally, he just, like, threw his shovel down. And we just heard this clink, and we just stopped.  


There's that beautiful electric moment of silence where we all just looked at each other, like, "We, did you hear?" That wasn't rock; like, that was metal, and then we started screaming, and finally unearthed this treasure. So my God, what a saga?  


Chris Martenson: And there was actual treasure in there.  


Erica Martenson: I thought there was. 


Chris Martenson: Yes. 


Erica Martenson: There was silver, there was, like –  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: – Beautiful jewelry. Yeah I was a little worried that it was going to be, like, 11-year-old lollipops. 


Chris Martenson: Yes it was worse? 


Erica Martenson: So that you could do that, yes. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: And we're, like, whatever, moldy Tootsie Rolls –  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: – But a real treasure. 


Chris Martenson: There was a real treasure in there. Yeah so and that's – I, I I pushed hard to say, "No," we need to, we need to let them work this out. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah. 


Chris Martenson: Right, because I actually believe in that as a, as a parenting style, is when, and when you actually work through something by yourself, it has a different meaning.  


And it becomes yours, it's not about us doing something. So that became your kids', like whole thing, and it's a shared memory. And it's, it belongs to you now. Right, and so we _____ [00:27:59], we containered it, but the rest was out of our hands.  


Erica Martenson: And what a better story than if you guys had spilled the beans, and we thought of that same day? I probably would have forgotten it but to have it be this long, epic, beautiful process,  


Chris Martenson: Yeah and it served our purposes because you kids would be out stomping around and digging –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah exactly. 


Chris Martenson: – Holes all over the island.  


Erica Martenson: I'm like, I'm noting that, that's genius. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: Parents take note. 


Chris Martenson: Just let that run. 


Erica Martenson: Just file that one away if you ever want your kids out of the house. 


Chris Martenson: But as well, I worked hard to, too. I remember you, you kids had to work hard to figure out when I was lying. Because if you would ask me something, my default response would be to either tell you the truth or tell you enough truth that it was truthy. Or to just outright BS the whole situation.  


Because I actually wanted critical thinking; I think it's real. One of the things I value most highly in my life is the ability to say, "Somebody is telling me something, how am I going to receive this?" And should I just trust this, right?  


And so yeah, that was, I remember, probably somewhere around, for each of you, around the, between the ages of eight and ten, you'd start to decode, like, "Okay, when he's got his tongue over to the side, he must be –?" 


Erica Martenson: He's looking to the left. 


Chris Martenson: Because if, he must, he must be. 


Erica Martenson: I think we actually, we, I think we made a list of those, like, tell signs. I, it's probably buried somewhere, but that would be pretty good to pull out, though, to see if it's still true. 


Chris Martenson: So all of which, all of which is just part of, part of where you are now. And so as you take all of those skills, and learnings, and your upbringing, and everything, well, how do you, how do you see the world today from a widen the lens way up? Like, from your perspective at your age, you look into this thing we call our current situation. How do you see it? 


Erica Martenson: Well, I mean, obviously, growing up with you as my dad, and listening to you record the crash course through your, in your tiny, little, sweaty office, I, I kind of grew up with this sense of, like, "This all feels like, like some, sort of, façade."  


It doesn't feel, the story that you can just work hard, and save a lot of money, and buy a house, and save for retirement, that whole, the whole –  


Chris Martenson: The arc. 


Erica Martenson: – The arc, the the cultural myth that we're operating on, just always, it felt like BS. So, and I think I'm, obviously, I grew up as your daughter, and so I, kind of, grew up with that, just seeing it, seeing it as that, as a story rather than just the objective truth.  


And also, just the the growing up, and especially when we are in Mystic, growing up, and just seeing, like, the the way people were operating when they were, kind of, in the water of the mother culture. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: Like, Dideothen [PH] says. 


Chris Martenson: How would you describe that? 


Erica Martenson: Well, it's just this, there's, like, a lot of different threads to it. But I think it's just if you do A, and B, and C, you will be happy, something like that. But I just never actually saw that playing out with just this, this story of, you're only as valuable as you are productive. You are going to be ostracized, and shamed, and outcast if you don't fit into this cultural narrative. 


Just all of that has, is, never sat right with me. And and I think that was, like, why as a child, I was, like, so entrenched in these, like, older ways of living where I was just, like – I was actually, I I just was, I was rereading those books. Because there's actually a lot of, like, information in there about how do you spend well, and blah-blah-blah.  


So but just reading them and reading about the ridiculous amount of skills these people had to live. Like, they were literate; this guy, that her father was the hunter, and the tanner. And the, her mother made all of their clothing, which is insane to me.  


As someone who works with fibers a lot, that is, like, Herculean, that amount of effort goes into that, growing all of their food. They're everybody, and not that long ago had way more skills, like, actual skills to live than I would say most people have today.  


Chris Martenson: But I think these skills inform each other. So if you have to learn how to use a hammer, you'd learn something about momentum. And if you have to use the other side of the hammer, you learn something about leverage. And –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – And if you have to put an animal down, you learn something about life, and on, and on, and on. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: I mean but they they, they coalesce. So when I was down at Joel Saliton's farm, and seeing his son, and his, all of the people there working with them, it's just astonishing to me. Like any anywhere you went, and you ask them something, there was a whole story under it.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: And we were, probably, just getting the tip of that story. 


Erica Martenson: Sure. 


Chris Martenson: Right, but everything from how you motivate and incentivize people, what kind of contracts you would write? How do you put fences in? How you would think about hydrology, where you make roads. Like, there was just, there was no end to it, two solid days of them just sharing as fast as they could, and barely scratched the surface of this thing.  


But if you walk on there, you could feel it. Because the whole place is, sort of, operating in a way, and there's an intelligence to the interaction, and interplay.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: That's very different from being a super specialist where all you know is one tiny piece of the overall story that that, that comes together to make what you would call your sustenance system.  


Erica Martenson: Right. 


Chris Martenson: You know? 


Erica Martenson: Right, and I think that just happens naturally when you're really just getting your hands dirty. And and it's funny because you can pick any skill and it, kind of, branches out into everything else.  


Like I'm I'm, I've been learning how to weave these baskets for a few years now. And it's not just learning the art of weaving the basket to –  


Chris Martenson: I, can I see that? 


Erica Martenson: – Weave it _____ [00:34:47]. Yeah. 


Chris Martenson: This is, when did you make this one? 


Erica Martenson: I think I finished that one a year and, a year ago, a year and a half ago. 


Chris Martenson: My instinct is to go bury this in an Anasazi site. 


Erica Martenson: Narragansett –  


Chris Martenson: In _____ [00:34:59] –? 


Erica Martenson: – Actually, they're the ones that made that style. 


Chris Martenson: Narragansett, so put this at a dig and let an anthropologist dig it up, and and just these, this would go in a museum. And there would be a little tag under it, like. 


Erica Martenson: Well, the cool thing about this is they do last for – like, they they've dug up ones that are, like, 400, 500 years old. 


Chris Martenson: It's beautiful. 


Erica Martenson: But –  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: – They just last forever. But to weave this basket, I have to know, there's two different types of fibers in here, and I have to know which type of tree this fiber comes from. When do I peel the bark off so that I can extract the fibers? How do I extract the fibers? How do I store them?  


I had to learn how to carve this particular type of device to store my portage on. So it really is that type of thing where you pick one, seemingly, like, small skill, and it just branches out into everything else.  


Chris Martenson: But what, why did, and what made you start? 


Erica Martenson: While I was doing this; this term never, like, encompasses what it is but I was doing a naturalist program, an adult one with the man who taught me how to weave these baskets. 


And I saw him weaving. And I had actually been watching him weave these for a few years, and they always caught my eye. And I was always, like, there's something so alluring about that. And so, finally, he agreed to teach me how to make them, which, again is no small thing because there's so much that goes into just this one little basket when you're sourcing every single piece of it and creating every single piece of it. 


So I really just completely fell in love with the whole process. Especially, just, there is something about the pace of it that, kind of, illuminated for me my own, the, kind of, like, background static of the cultural stories of everything has to be fast, and everything has to be efficient.  


If I don't master this immediately, it's worthless, whatever. So this, kind of, brought, like, flushed all of that up to the surface for me, and just let me experience a different way of being with it, which is one that's, like, very slow, and very painstaking, and takes a lot of time.  


And I've only made about, I think this is, I've made five of them. And I've spent hundreds, and hundreds of hours doing it, and I'm just scratching the surface. 


Chris Martenson: Scratching the surface of –? 


Erica Martenson: Of of basket making. 


Chris Martenson: And how to do it? 


Erica Martenson: Yeah every single one has felt like a fluke. I'm, like, I'm so lucky that this turned out how it did because I don't know. 


Chris Martenson: So it sounds more like a a creative process where something emerges. 


Erica Martenson: Something emerges, yeah. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah yeah.  


Chris Martenson: Yeah so back to this idea of of the future. I mean, your generation is the first one to grow up with this whole existential climate change, well, and or the insect apocalypse; and or I mean –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – There's a lot of things, sort of, lurking around that story. And I think that the options include fully going into the story, and becoming the account executive for Nike, and just –  


Erica Martenson: Sure. 


Chris Martenson: – Pretending as if things aren't really how they are. Right? You have to, you have to go through a certain level of denial, and ignoring the data. Or you have to try to figure out how to live with it –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – And make peace with it in some way or something.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah. 


Chris Martenson: Right? Where do you fall on that? 


Erica Martenson: I mean it's a, it's, definitely changes day to day. I go from total, like, grief at seeing, like, way less butterflies than I remember seeing when I was a kid, to just, like, grateful, grateful for the world that I get to live in, and that I get to live in a way that feels much more related to the natural world around me. That feels more honest with just who I am.  


But I mean, yeah, climate change, is the the huge one. It's, yeah, honestly, it's it's really scary. And I think because it's, like, you don't know how to, nobody my age seems to know how to handle it, or face it, or respond it.  


I mean I feel like so, it's so easy to get, just demoralized, and depressed, and paralyzed. And, like, fuck am I supposed to do about it? How do I respond, I'm just one little person, what do I do?  


And that's why I think climate change is one thing that makes the whole story of, "Well just save up for retirement and keep chugging along at business as usual." It just makes it feel, like, so, like, dissonant to the reality that we're actually in. 


Chris Martenson: Well, it's it's insane making, right? 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: Because they're two separate, not even parallel, not even orthogonal. They're completely different narratives. One narrative is, "We need to get the economy growing."  


You need to get a job, you're gonna have to go into debt to get an education or buy a house. You have to do all of this, which is all participating in this system that we know is destroying the very thing that the system needs to exist.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: And so how do you get super excited about participating in this system which is doing this over here? It's very, it doesn't really square up very well –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – As a story. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah it it doesn't. It doesn't. And I think, I think, it's just becoming, it's getting to the point now where it's, you you, kind of, can't ignore it. Like, do you have that sense, too, that it's –? 


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: – This type of awareness is –? 


Chris Martenson: Yeah and and –  


Erica Martenson: – It's spreading? 


Chris Martenson: – And so I get dinged a lot by people who say I should make climate change more of a central focus of mine. And I don't do it because what I care about is leading people that to to insights that lead to action. And climate change violates several of the precepts we know about humans.  


So humans are really clever at some things; we're not that awesome at other things. So we don't do that well with statistical arguments. Right? We don't do that well with things that are distant, right? People will jump in at this recency or near miss bias. Like, if you see a kid fall into a canal, 99 out of 100 people jump in, and pull it out.  


You hear about a kid starving in Africa, one out of 100 sends a dollar a day or whatever is required to, sort of, maybe, address that. It's, that, that's makes it tricky. And then the hardest part is that your local experience is going to be different. Right?  


So if you told me, here, living in Western Mass, this summer that climate change is going to bake the earth. I'm going to say, "No we had a, probably one of the coolest –  


Erica Martenson: Wettest. 


Chris Martenson: – Wettest Julys I'm I'm aware of. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: Right, we only hit the 90s a couple of times, but we were typically in the 70s or 80s. So so that, all of those things tend to militate against people actually taking action around it because their daily experience.  


Like, if every day you woke up, and it was just too hot, right; now, it's an easier story to talk about. That, because it doesn't work that way, it's a chaotic system. It's very hard to show people, most people, the chart where this line is bouncing, more or less upwards –  


Erica Martenson: Right. 


Chris Martenson: – For the past –  


Erica Martenson: You're not gonna get –  


Chris Martenson: – Twenty years. 


Erica Martenson: – Like, inspired to make life changes based on, like, graphs or or numbers. 


Chris Martenson: Particularly not if it involves actual changes that are going to be experienced by our reptilian brain's loss. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah, well, see, that's why I'm I'm really grateful that you and mom sent me to those nature programs so young, and I could really start. Nature went from this, like, wall of green to, like, "That's an individual plant, and I can use it for that." And I can eat that, and that's medicine for this.  


And and it, really, when you build these relationships with the plants, and the animals, and the trees, and you actually get to know them, it, you, it's easier to track those patterns over time. Because you actually know what you're looking at.  


So I think it does make climate change that much more real when I'm, like, No no, I haven't seen hardly any monarchs this year compared to the year before that. 


Chris Martenson: Very thin this year. 


Erica Martenson: Compared to the year before _____ [00:43:38]. Right so it's, like, when you actually, when you start to be, like, able to know what you're paying attention to, it makes it, it makes it feel more near, and more real, and more, like –  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: – Immediate. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah and and, and there are other things that are more near and immediate for me, even though I think climate change is a big sort of slow, lumbering thing that's gonna really bite us badly. But there's things before that that will probably bite us first.  


And the insect apocalypse is a big one for me. Because I just, sort of, have that, like Boromir said, "One does not simply," in the Lord of the Rings, "One does not simply take out the bottom of the food chain." 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: Right? 


Erica Martenson: I know.  


Chris Martenson: We can't predict what's going to happen next but I see it in the birds that aren't here this year. The bird count is way down. I mean, we have the local residents, there's chickadees here but but everybody's down a bit because the birds eat the insects.  


Right, and the insects are really decimated. Even here, I live in a, probably in one of the wildest areas of Massachusetts where the next thing over just up the road is the largest contiguous remaining wilderness area in all of Massachusetts –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – Four square miles. So we should have relatively low pressure from whatever it is that's causing the apocalypse, if it's neonicotinoid pesticides. But whatever it is, it's very real. 


Erica Martenson: And it's still impacting, I mean, everything. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: Right, it's like you can't affect the the thing at the bottom of the food chain without it just rippling everywhere. 


Chris Martenson: Through the whole thing.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: And it's going to be one of those stories, like, for want of a nail, a shoe was lost. For want of a shoe, the horse was lost; for want of the horse, the rider was lost; for want of the rider, the battle was lost in the kingdom fight. So because of that nail being lost, right?  


Erica Martenson: Nice job. 


Chris Martenson: So it'll be something like that. It'll be something like that where were we're, like, why are these brown fungi all over our crops this year?  


Erica Martenson: Right. 


Chris Martenson: And by the time we unpack it, it will be, well, because you needed this nematode to eat this thing in order for that not to do this, but because that wasn't here, this. It's going to be –  


Erica Martenson: Well, I think it's it's –  


Chris Martenson: – Something like that.  


Erica Martenson: – Right, it's all of these intertwined, very complex, very subtle often systems, and you just, like, put one thing out of balance or one thing out of place. And who knows what the ripple effects are going to be? And I mean, we're seeing this, and I feel like we haven't seen this –  


Chris Martenson: Yeah.  


Erica Martenson: – For a while.  


Chris Martenson: Yeah.  


Erica Martenson: So why hasn't? Why do you think that hasn't led to some, sort of, like, larger change when we're seeing this? 


Chris Martenson: So it's –  


Erica Martenson: So we play out. 


Chris Martenson: – Hard to get a good organizing principle for this. And as you know, I'm very much not religious, but I do find that I can learn from almost any area, and there's a lot of truth to gain in some of the religious metaphors and stories.  


And one of them is around this middle-aged description, is where it first started coming in with Mammon, one of the, one of the chief minions of Satan. And Mammon is is the, is the under god of the underworld who convinces you that money is real, and convinces you to waste your life chasing shiny things.  


So it's really, it's it's money. And it's, and so I wrote a whole article called One Step Removed, which shows that if you just give humans one step removed, that's all the daylight we need to do some really, morally questionable things.  


Right, so one example of that is the case of Erin Brockovich, movie, Julia Roberts is in it. It's a real story about a woman who thought PG&E because they were dumping this hexavalent chromium into wells. It got out, off-site, and it came into people's water supply, and was creating cancer and children.  


Right, One Step Removed, hey, we put this stuff down here in the well, and the engineers did that. Not a single one of those engineers would have taken some of this, and poured it straight into a kid's cereal bowl –  


Erica Martenson: Right. 


Chris Martenson: – Not one of them. 


Erica Martenson: Right and removed just enough. 


Chris Martenson: Just enough.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: Money gives us that same one step removed. People will do a lot in the name of money. Well, profits on Monsanto, I have to; I'm Bayer, I'm Syngenta. I need to make these neonicotinoids, the farmers make a few extra bucks, because it's just easier, my God. 


I think that's it. I I think, it's just we're chasing money, and it's one of the oldest – we're we're really just living up to things that, historically, biblically, through all sorts of religious texts, they say, "Yeah it's a bad idea."  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: You get taken off track. I think it's money. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: So we live in the most abundant world possible and people live with a, with a profound sense of scarcity. And some of the people I know who have the strongest sense of scarcity are centimillionaire. 


Erica Martenson: Right. 


Chris Martenson: These are people with a lot of money but they're desperately afraid of losing it, not having more. They don't have as much as the other person. It's weird. We live in the most abundant period of time. I'd love to hear you talk about gratitude because we can have a lot of gratitude –  


Erica Martenson: Yes. 


Chris Martenson: – For living at, probably the easiest, most wonderful time in all of human history. And yet –  


Erica Martenson: My God, yeah. 


Chris Martenson: – Most people experience it as profound day to day scarcity.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah. 


Chris Martenson: Which is weird. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah I mean, do you think that's just the, like, the cultural narrative that just seeps in through through families, and through parenting styles, and through the school system? 


Chris Martenson: And through our collectives, consciousness marketing programs?  


Erica Martenson: Right right.  


Chris Martenson: Right? 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: Which we have that collective hysteria happening right now.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah. 


Chris Martenson: Right here, so, yeah, and this is the end of August 2021, we're recording this. But right now, this, sort of, vaccinated versus unvaccinated hysteria that's, sort of, come up is is now completely detached from, to me from the underlying piece, which is that if you're healthy, you have a 99.98% chance of surviving this.  


Where did that 0.02 become so terrorizing to people? Which is just life, by the way. I hate to tell people this, but being born is 100% fatal, eventually. 


Erica Martenson: Right. 


Chris Martenson: It comes with 100% fatality rate. It's weird. So it's just part of life but we've divorced ourselves from from life, right?  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: And and I think that's what you're speaking to in your farm and your nature connection is, that's a reconnection to life. 


Erica Martenson: Yes. 


Chris Martenson: Where sometimes shit happens. 


Erica Martenson: All the time, shit happens. Yeah yeah, I mean I _____ [00:50:02], I remember, you…. Do you know how old I was when we did the first turkey slaughter?  


Chris Martenson: Well, we were in Mystic so that must – no no no, we did that in in Bernardston. 


Erica Martenson: Bernardston, so eight –  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: – Maybe. So I I grew up around death and, like, getting to see like all of the messy, hard, like painful parts of life that I'm, I'm glad I wasn't hidden from. I remember mother. 


Chris Martenson: You must have been eight or nine because I think –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – The way I remember that story more clearly is because of Simon. 


Erica Martenson: Yes, please tell that story.  


Chris Martenson: So we had been watching Monty Python, right, and Monty Python has this one part where, in in one of the movies, where there are these monks who walk around and go, "_____ [00:50:53]," and they hit themselves on the head with their little monk boards, right. That's a Monty Python skit, I saw, and a lot of fun.  


So your mom and I were over there, we're processing a turkey, and all of a sudden Simon bursts out crying. And we look over and we had to piece it together because he had a dent in his forehead. 


Erica Martenson: The 'L'. 


Chris Martenson: – And he had a dent. 


Erica Martenson: – The 'L'. 


Chris Martenson: – A dent from the corner of a very heavy cutting board, he just…. 


Erica Martenson: Just doing some role playing. 


Chris Martenson: Just some role playing. 


Erica Martenson: Just because he was really getting into character. 


Chris Martenson: He just…. 


Erica Martenson: He's method acting, yeah. 


Chris Martenson: So I can clearly remember him crumpled over, five-ish. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: So that puts you at eight or nine, right –  


Erica Martenson: Yep.  


Chris Martenson: – Depending on where we are in that story.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah.  


Erica Martenson: Something like that. 


Chris Martenson: Alright so what about the turkeys? 


Erica Martenson: Well, I mean I was just, there were, there were many more slaughters after that. I mean, honestly, it was the the chicken slaughter day, was one of my favorite days. Because we would all just get into work mode, we would just get into this rhythm, this flow.  


Me and my sister would get into, like, who can get the chicken faster competitions. And and it was this, really, I mean, it was, there's always like grief when you're ending animals' lives. There's always grief when you're actually, like, in relationship with your food, and and seeing the the messy details of it. But there was also just this, like, joy, and connection, and and play that came along with it, too. Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: I can't remember why we started with the whole chicken thing? I'm I'm, I'm just, I just, I just like doing things for myself whenever possible.  


Right, so that was just, that was part of life was build something if you need it, fix it if it can be fixed. Grow it yourself if you can. And I I was on that vibe way before I started. That's just, kind of, how I'm constructed. So now –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – I'm glad that we did all of that given where the world is. And once I had an organizing framework for the world, I was, like, "Yeah, this seems like a good idea." People, maybe, ought to know how to do these things, that –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – Should, and should, an actual one. But I, I I now realize that part of my story of self is that I was running from something for a while. I was, I was sure that the economy was going to collapse, and I didn't realize the level of insanity they would bring it to. I was sure that the systems were more fragile than they were.  


But now that I'm here on this side of it with my own cows, and chickens, and pigs, and things like that, I would come, I would run towards this life because I like what it teaches me. And I like the grounding and I like the connection of it.  


I think that's what this whole story has to be about for this next arc, is that I just think you, we're out of balance. Because the species, we're just out of balance, out of balance with ourselves, out of balance with each other, out of balance with the natural world, just out of balance.  


Hopi prophecy, it, sort of, nailed this a long time ago. Koyaanisqatsi. What's the word for it, Life Out of Balance? 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: And you said, "Yeah, you guys are going to have a, you'll have an experience with that." Probably not until, what was the prophecy, not until after you've poisoned the last river?  


Erica Martenson: Yeah. 


Chris Martenson: Eaten the last fish, and killed the last buffalo, done what you're going to do. So they they saw us as locusts. And then we'll do what all all organisms do when you finally run out of resources, which is, to go, "Maybe we shouldn't have done that?" 


Erica Martenson: Yeah. Yeah, well, that's the thing is it's where we're, we're operating on this story of of unlimited everything: unlimited growth, unlimited resources. And we've, that, like, that is just not true. That is just not how the world is and so that, I think, when you, when you start to live this, kind of, like….  


I I use, I think of the word smaller because it feels like the concentric rings of my life just have gotten a lot smaller with this lifestyle of, like, my, a lot of my food is coming from 50 feet from my front door. And obviously, I'm not like a Puritan, and I don't think you really can be these days. 


Chris Martenson: No. 


Erica Martenson: You know? Of course I'm guilty of, I drive cars, and whatever. But just having that, like, smaller, it's like when you know where everything's coming from, you also learn that, the limits of it. Like, you, you learn limits when you're getting your hands dirty, and building things for yourself.  


And and you learn your limits, and you learn the limits of the place that you're in. And and that is very contradictory to the kind of cultural overstory of limitless everything. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah. 


Chris Martenson: Can I just say I'm really glad I don't have to make a living as a farmer because I'm not that good at it? I think it would be really hard. 


Erica Martenson: It takes a lot of work. 


Chris Martenson: It takes a lot of work? 


Erica Martenson: It takes a lot of work. And I am not, by the way, I'm just, make that clear, I'm not a farmer.  


Chris Martenson: Alright.  


Erica Martenson: I'm not making my living as a farmer.  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: I I love it and respect the people that do it but. 


Chris Martenson: So you're teaching kids now? 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: In Houston Park, and the outdoor programs. 


Erica Martenson: Outdoor programs, yes. 


Chris Martenson: Note, have you noticed any change over the years in terms of how kids are showing up in terms of skills? Or I'm I'm thinking about the screen time. Well, let me just tell you this.  


When we have, there are two classes of kids who show up here because we have people from the local community, we, otherwise come through. And some of them know how to be in their bodies and use them; and many of them don't. And and it's pretty profound.  


Erica Martenson: Well, so it, there is, there is a huge, I've noticed, major differences in the kids that show up. So most of my programs, the kids are homeschooled because they're run throughout the school year on school days. So most of the kids that end up showing up are homeschooled.  


And I feel really lucky because most of the kids that are in those programs had older siblings that grew up going to these programs, who had older siblings who went and they've, kind of; so they, kind of, have absorbed a lot of the, kind of, subculture of the group just by osmosis.  


And and so that means that they show up with a totally different ability to listen, and pay attention, and, kind of, know. Like, there's a lot of these, kind of small, I don't know rituals, or like routines built in throughout our day. So we started day with gratitude, we end our day with some sort of story from our day. 


We, when we're entering the forest, we'll, like, pause and stop at the edge of the forest, and just stand there in silence for about a minute. And that's, like, pretty impressive to do with a group of, like, 8, 9, and 10-year-olds. That they will, and they they lead it; they'll stop before I tell anybody to. They'll stop, so they, kind of, already have that ingrained in them.  


And then in contrast, I do, I do a few programs, or I've done a few programs that have worked with school kids. And they're coming to us straight from school, they're completely wired. Like, most of the day is just, like, let's play the most intense running game we possibly can. Because you just have so much steam built up. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: We're not going to be doing, like, these long, complicated storytellings. We're not going to be doing these, like, very detail oriented crafts. It's where we just have to literally run you. So there is definitely a big difference. Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: So this was another part of the story of your life that just came up this year, was you were diagnosed with cancer. Are you willing to talk about that?  


Erica Martenson: Sure I'm happy to.  


Chris Martenson: So I remember the day I was out in my field and get the call from you. You said, "Dad, I've I've got cancer." 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: And tears, I cried. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: And I cried.  


Erica Martenson: I don't think I had ever heard you cry like that before. Yeah you're very moving. 


Chris Martenson: And then there was a scramble to, sort of, figure this out because the system, the system of, sort of, conventional medicine says, "Come on in, we we, we want to just slot you right in, get a port installed. We got chemo" and all of that.  


Erica Martenson: And I did end up doing that. 


Chris Martenson: Which you did end up doing.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: But first, there was some getting a team together and and figuring –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – That all out. And then there were a few alternative things that you were on as well. So so let's cut to the chase, that was, the diagnosis was back in September, October. 


Erica Martenson: October 1st. 


Chris Martenson: October 1st –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – Was the actual readout which was, it's Stage 4 Hodgkin's. 


Erica Martenson: Stage 4, yeah. 


Chris Martenson: Which means above, and below, and bilateral. 


Erica Martenson: Diaphragm, yep. Yep, which is, I will say it's different for blood cancers than it is for other types of cancers. Like, a Stage 4 diagnosis with a hard tumor is very different with lymphoma. 


I mean it’s; the cure rate doesn't change that much depending on the stage. So I got lucky, I was, like, I got the poster child of curable cancers. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: They call it the good cancer, which, like, fuck that, there's not a good cancer but. 


Chris Martenson: Okay. 


Erica Martenson: But they call it that and I understand it. 


Chris Martenson: The least bad. 


Erica Martenson: Look, least bad. Yeah no, so we, there there was a big, like, "Okay how do I want to approach this?" And I think had I had a lesser stage; I might have approached it in a different method.  


But at this point, it was just, like, alright, we just got to get in there. Clean clean this up as quick as we can, which turned out to be chemo. So I finished that on May 11th, a couple of months ago.  


Chris Martenson: You have hair. 


Erica Martenson: I do. I have hair, I _____ [01:00:50]. 


Chris Martenson: You have eyebrows.  


Erica Martenson: I have eyebrows, I have eyelashes. My doctor said I was only the second person he had seen go in, 30 years of treating patients, to come out with hair at the end of it. So thank you, I'm very lucky.  


Chris Martenson: And as well, you were on a lot of complementary things as well.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: What what else were you taking? 


Erica Martenson: Well, my God, I'm I'm still taking, like, two fistfuls of supplements every day. I, like, I am a pro at, I can literally swallow, like, probably 12 pills at a time right now.  


Chris Martenson: And you just, you just pop? 


Erica Martenson: I'm literally, not kidding; I could probably swallow, like, a whole egg. I haven't tested that out. But it probably could, like. 


Chris Martenson: So you took, alright, what's what's in this pile of pills?  


Erica Martenson: There's there's all kinds of stuff. There is green tea extract, selenium, vitamin D, vitamin C, Vitamin E, vitamin B. What else is in there? Niacin, there is…. 


Chris Martenson: Niacin, are you taking the flush niacin? 


Erica Martenson: I'm taking the flush niacin, so the first few days where I was a little sweatier than normal. But I think I, actually, I I was lucky to not have a stronger reaction to it as other people have. What else? 


Chris Martenson: Ivermectin? 


Erica Martenson: She doesn't have me on, like, constant ivermectin. But I loved that she was just, didn't blink when I brought that up was. I was, like, "Hey, what do you think?" She was, like, "Sure." You know? 


Chris Martenson: And her being a a naturopathic?  


Erica Martenson: No this is, yes, that's right, my naturopathic –  


Chris Martenson: Oncologist. 


Erica Martenson: – Oncologist. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: Who is just a rock star and –  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: – I love her. And she also had me doing this; She was a very, she had a very holistic approach. So there, she had me doing things like breath work to, like, calm my nervous system down. She had me doing all these, like, visualizations and stuff.  


While I was getting my chemo, she had me exercising and drinking, just, like, so much water, a ridiculous amount of water. So it was a very rounded, well-rounded approach that I think made it – I mean I think I got through it about as easy as I possibly could have. 


Chris Martenson: I remember, speaking of your first, sort of, very traditional oncologist; so you had a whole team, you had an oncologist, you had a naturopathic oncologist. And there were other, sort of, like, add-ons into that whole thing to give you the overall support.  


What I liked about the naturopathic oncologist; she didn't say, "I'm I'm going to take her down this other path." She said, "I'm going to, I'm going to work with." 


Erica Martenson: We're complementing. 


Chris Martenson: We're complementing. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah exactly. 


Chris Martenson: It's not, "Instead of," because the datas –  


Erica Martenson: No. 


Chris Martenson: – The data is pretty strong for the chemo response of these types of Hodgkin's –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah. 


Chris Martenson: – To the chemo. But in in that, in that larger process, I remember, your first oncologist, just straight up. Because I I remember my – I have, like, I have a, I have a disqualifying question. And she failed it right up front. I said, "What what are your views on nutrition?" 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: And she said, "We think they, yeah, anything they can do to eat." I said, "Ice cream?" Yeah. Pizza? Yes. I was like, "And you do realize that 20 years ago, they solved this question for Hodgkin's and many other cancers." That what you eat is, actually, really important, but that that this medical system, practiced state-of-the-art, as it is, it still doesn't have a position on nutrition, was disqualifying to me –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – And for that person. 


Erica Martenson: Well, I will. I'll play devil's advocate here, though, because I did see other patients that were going through the same type of chemotherapy that I was going through. And they were, like, the type of nausea where you literally cannot get food down.  


And so they were rapidly losing weight, even though they were on steroids and other drugs to, kind of, combat that nausea. But they were just losing weight so quick that the nurses were, like, "You just need, straight up, calories. 


Chris Martenson: Okay. 


Erica Martenson: So in that case, it was, like. 


Chris Martenson: I have a _____ [01:04:52] because you came into the so healthy because of your overall eating patterns.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: And just general state of health, that it, probably, that's part of the explanatory reason for why you, it it was an easier run for you than those people, I would say. But to me, if, like, if your, if your nutrition comes in poor, like, you've got, you're on a –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – Standard American diet, you were sad, right? You've got a high fructose, sort of, like, metabolic disorder. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: I think, yeah, then I could, then I could see that. And they say, "Well, for these people, they just need calories. I guess, anything will do." 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: So they don't fully waste away. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah no, and I do think in the, in the larger context, like, it's it's so obvious to me that I cannot believe it's not more of a topic in your medical training. Like, I think it's like a, I've I've read, it's like a two-day –  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: – Kind of, course on nutrition. Which is, like, no no, no, that's how we, literally, build our bodies. Like you would think that may have something to do with health? 


Chris Martenson: Yeah, make them _____ [01:05:54]. 


Erica Martenson: Maybe. 


Chris Martenson: Maybe, it's just, it's, really, it's bizarre that we're this medieval, still, about nutrition –  


Erica Martenson: Very archaic. 


Chris Martenson: – Because –  


Erica Martenson: Yes.  


Chris Martenson: – Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah. 


Chris Martenson: Because there's a lot of data out there. But this was, this was a real eye opener for me. One of the things I did was download the Moss Report, which I loved.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah that was great.  


Chris Martenson: It's 400 pages about Hodgkin's. I guess, maybe 20% of it's about Hodgkin's, the other 80% is probably common to many cancers. But what I loved about the way the Moss Report breaks it down.  


So for anybody who has cancer, I would highly recommend you get the Moss Report, really, and just start reading. Because what Moss, this Dr. Moss guy does, is just very logical. He said, "Here's what we know, here's what we, sort of, know. And here's what we don't know." 


Erica Martenson: Right. 


Chris Martenson: Right, red, yellow, green. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: The green stuff, for sure, we know, correlates really strongly with better outcomes. Yellow, there's some data, we'd like to know more. Red, this stuff either works, it doesn't work or is proven to be harmful.  


Erica Martenson: Right.  


Chris Martenson: Right, and and so that that helped to, sort of, parse through that because it's it's a real bumpy landscape when you go out there. Because you get these anecdotes of people who say, "I licked butterfly wings, and I got cured," so. 


Erica Martenson: Man, that was my least favorite part about, one of my least favorite parts about it was just the the, everybody had some cure that I needed –  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: – To try.  


Chris Martenson: Yep. 


Erica Martenson: It's, like, "Well, I'm going to go with the chemo because it has a 85% success rate and –  


Chris Martenson: Well, there were –  


Erica Martenson: – Even higher for my age group. 


Chris Martenson: – Some others things. There was a little bit of, a little bit of panic your _____ [01:07:23] involved in that story at the front end, too. 


Erica Martenson: That's true. I did, I did that for a little bit. But I have to say, like, chemotherapy, when it's used in the right context, and this was it. I mean, it was, kind of, ridiculous. I had, because I I originally went in because I had these lymph nodes that were swollen and just weren't going away.  


So I went and got them checked out. Doctor was, like, "Let's take a biopsy." And then we went from there and and I was, I could not believe how quickly it worked, the the chemotherapy. The day after, they had shrunk by 30%, literally like –  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: – That quick. 


Chris Martenson: Well, it's a very responsive cancer. 


Erica Martenson: I was, like, "Okay." This is working, I'm glad.  


Chris Martenson: That's cool.  


Erica Martenson: I'm very glad.  


Chris Martenson: Yes. 


Erica Martenson: So but I do think the, because most people when they're getting this type of chemotherapy, it it can be a nightmare. I've read, there's, like, a subreddit for this particular type of lymphoma. And I was reading other people's stories that totally freaked me out before I went in. I was, like, "God, I'm going to be, like, on my back for ten days out of the two weeks between treatments."  


I'm going to lose all of my, like, tastes, and everything is going everything is going to taste metallic. I'm losing my hair within the first month. I'm going to get mouth sores and all of these awful side effects. And I went in, and the first treatment felt like shit the next day.  


I felt like a little better the next day. But by day three, I was back up on my feet. And I was like, okay, first one, it seemed okay, not life, not totally life shattering. And then, and then that just kept happening, treatment after treatment. I was, like, okay, I still have my hair.  


Okay I still feel energized between treatments. No mouth sores, like, I actually feel like normal –  


Chris Martenson: Well, what was –  


Erica Martenson: – In between treatments. 


Chris Martenson: – What was your diet before you started, like, even before you even got the cancer diagnosis, what was your diet like? 


Erica Martenson: Well, let's see, just before treatment, I was eating. I mean, I've always been, like, pretty, pretty darn good about eating organic foods. Most of my dairy at that time was, like, cows, like, my cows. Or the most of the meat I was eating was from this farm.  


So most all, yeah and, obviously, like not perfect. I would, definitely, go to Whole Foods and get my whatever, bread or butter but yeah, largely organic, largely local. Pretty good, and that was why it was, like, "What?" when I got –  


Chris Martenson: Well you _____ [01:10:04]? 


Erica Martenson: – Diagnosed.  


Chris Martenson: I know. 


Erica Martenson: It's, like, "What?" 


Chris Martenson: You've been on bone broth –  


Erica Martenson: Come on. 


Chris Martenson: – Diets before. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah no, I did the whole GAPS diet. 


Chris Martenson: The GAPS diet, yeah. 


Erica Martenson: I was, I had a partner who was, who had IBS, and we tackled it with the GAPS diet, which is, like, very rigorous. 


Chris Martenson: It's very whole –  


Erica Martenson: Organic. 


Chris Martenson: – Militant. 


Erica Martenson: Militant –  


Chris Martenson: Yes. 


Erica Martenson: – Bone broth, and fermented foods, and meat, and veggies, and that's it. So I thought I had always – and the weird thing is, is, like, you'd think you would, like, be able to tell when you have cancer?  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: Like, I had always had this idea, like, "I would just feel, like, off, or weird," but I didn't. It was so weird, I was, like, "I feel great." Other than these lymph nodes, I'm waking up with lots of energy. I feel happy, I feel, whatever. And so that was, it was just like a total shock. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: Like, whoa. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah and, and we don't, I mean, there's a lot of data, just to suggest that Hodgkin's and lots of lymphomas are actually environmental. And I do think about the fact that that we lived next door to that farm. 


Erica Martenson: That sprays. 


Chris Martenson: It just sprays all the time. 


Erica Martenson: Roundup –  


Chris Martenson: And –  


Erica Martenson: – And whatever else. 


Chris Martenson: – It's something that smelled a lot like grapes one day. I don't know what that was but we would smell it because these people, these farmers didn't care if it was windy out or if they were _____ [01:11:27]? 


Erica Martenson: I don't know, you just would see, just, like, clouds of it rolling –  


Chris Martenson: They wouldn't care.  


Erica Martenson: – Over the fields. 


Chris Martenson: Like, they would spray when the bees were out. Like, like responsible farmers, such as they are who are still spraying will do it at night when it's calm. When the bees aren't out. 


Erica Martenson: Right. 


Chris Martenson: But these people didn't care. So I'm wondering if there was something about that? Because we had such an incredibly healthy lifestyle otherwise, so who knows?  


Erica Martenson: Something like that. 


Chris Martenson: I don't know.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: And so how's it, how's it –? How has it changed your outlook?  


Erica Martenson: Well, there's, it's it's, it feels like one of those things where, like, the dust is still, kind of, settling from it. It really ended only, like, two months ago so I'm still, kind of, like, getting my feet under me. And so maybe, like, let's ask me that question again in five years. 


Chris Martenson: Okay. 


Erica Martenson: And I might have a different answer.  


Chris Martenson: Sure. 


Erica Martenson: But for now, so when I first, I remember, I went into my first chemo treatment. And you're in the chemo ward. There's all of these chairs set up in this room, and there's curtains, but most of the curtains are open so you can see the other patients.  


And I saw these T-shirts, like, "Fuck cancer," and, "I'm going to make chemo my bitch," like, all that, kind of, messaging. And yeah, and I remember seeing that, and just going, like, "God, that is, that is just not interesting to me."  


Like, I understand it, I totally understand it. Hard things happen and it's just, like, fuck that, that sucks. That's real. And that mindset, just was, like, like, that's not the energy I want to, like, live my life with. Even with something like cancer so the approach to it was, kind of, like, alright, there's this, like, I don't know, entity or like being that's in my life for a little bit. 


And so the approach was more, like, okay, who who is this? Who are you? What? Like, is there, is there something to learn here? Is there something to pay attention to that I'm not paying attention to? And I remember and I, when I first got diagnosed, I got, I was just in a wave of shock, and fear, and just like, "My God, how do I even approach this?"  


And I had this this man pop into my mind, he was someone who who I got to know in, kind of, a ceremonial context. And he was just someone that I really respected for his, and due respect, for his, just approach to life, and and just the grace, and the authenticity of his – he was just this, like, radiant, like, Buddha in my life.  


And I was, like, "I want to ask you, how does he –? How would he approach something like this?" And he's a Diné man who lives on the Navajo reservation. And so I just sent him a text. I was, like, "Hey, Darrell, just got diagnosed, panicking," yeah, and like, "Would just love to hear some, something from you."  


And and he reached back out and he was, like, "Nace [PH], you're gonna need to call me every single day." I was like, "Okay. Are you sure, that's a, that's a lot?" And he's, like, "No no, no, we need to talk every day," and so we did. And so we talked throughout most of my treatment until I got my, until I got told that I was in remission.  


And so he just really coached me on on the approach to the cancer itself, but also just in the approach to my life in just, kind of, getting out of the the, the black and white demonization that happens when we're in something that's, like, really scary, and hard, and painful.  


It's very easy to get into, like, kind of, victim, panic mode, like, of course. But he really helped me just get still enough to get, kind of, out of that mentality. So thank you, Darrell if you're listening. 


Chris Martenson: Thank you, Darrell.  


Erica Martenson: Thank you, Darrell. It really, really, really changed the whole experience for me in a really big way. 


Chris Martenson: And that, obviously, has a potential to impact other areas of –  


Erica Martenson: My gosh, I mean –  


Chris Martenson: – _____ [01:15:54] what, yeah. 


Erica Martenson: – It's everything. It, it's completely, it's, yeah, it's it's one of those things that's really hard to put to words because it's just, it feels like something, something, kind of, softened in me; or, like, melted, and I don't quite have the, like, story for exactly what that was.  


But just my experience of my life is is just, it's like the scene from Wizard of Oz is popping to mind when it turns from black and white to color. It's, like, there's just this deep reverence for life that, I think, I, obviously – I had glimpses of it before.  


But when you, kind of, have this, like, reminder of it, I've my, like, port scar right here. It's this, that'll be with me for the rest of my life. 


Chris Martenson: The port where, the port where they –? 


Erica Martenson: Where the chemo went in. Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: And it's just, it's on my chest. And and so it's just this, kind of, constant reminder of, like, "This all ends." This all ends. And it's like, I don't, I lost the luxury of, like, forgetting that. And and so, yeah, there's just this, like, this deeper way of feeling my life that came out of this.  


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: Well, I'm obviously, thrilled that it turned out the way it has so far.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah. 


Chris Martenson: I guess, there's another, you, you're on, you'll get scans for a number of years, and –? 


Erica Martenson: Actually, no, they stopped doing that. 


Chris Martenson: Really?  


Erica Martenson: Yeah my doctor was, like…. I'm going to go; I'm actually going in for a checkup in a couple of weeks. And if there's any cause for concern, if there's any symptoms or side effects or if the nodes feel swollen at all, like, obviously, I'll go in again. But they don't do the, like, remedial PET scans anymore.  


Chris Martenson: Good. 


Erica Martenson: Which I like because it's a little freaky when they pull out the suitcase that says, "Biohazard," and the nurse is wearing a full suit to inject you. You're, like, "Cool." 


Chris Martenson: It's a little radioactive.  


Erica Martenson: Great. 


Chris Martenson: Okay? 


Erica Martenson: A little radioactive so I'm psyched to, like, not have to do that every year now. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah. So that's good yeah.  


Erica Martenson: Yeah. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah so as we wrap up here, what, what's next? What do you, what do you, tell me? I mean, there's so many more stories I want to go into at some point, but I think those are –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah. 


Chris Martenson: – We'll have to save those for another time but –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: – How you and your friends get together and and create community is an astonishing story, one. And to dig more deeply into, even any one of these things, like, the basket, and the fibers, and things –  


Erica Martenson: Sure. 


Chris Martenson: – Each of those is just a storyline, but –  


Erica Martenson: Sure. 


Chris Martenson: – But are you –? What, what's next for you as you settle into life in your tiny home with Bessie, the cow and –? 


Erica Martenson: Clover, actually –  


Chris Martenson: Clover. 


Erica Martenson: – Dad.  


Chris Martenson: I call all cows Bessie. 


Erica Martenson: I know; she's a Bessie. She's a Bessie cow. 


Chris Martenson: She looks like a Bessie, too, by the way.  


Erica Martenson: That's her name. 


Chris Martenson: She, kind of, have those little horns. 


Erica Martenson: I know, she a –  


Chris Martenson: And her –  


Erica Martenson: – She's so beautiful. 


Chris Martenson: – Brown teeth.  


Erica Martenson: She is just the most gorgeous creature. Well, I mean, what's next? I mean for, in the immediate future, it's just the the daily rhythms of life on the farm. So it's moving the sheep, and moving the cows, and all all of that.  


And for me, personally, I just started making braided rugs. That's, like, my latest obsession. So I'm just gonna keep doing that for a little bit. 


Chris Martenson: Are you using old clothes from Salvation Army, or? 


Erica Martenson: Well, yeah, I just had all of these old sheets, and I was, like, I'm not using these for anything. And space in the tiny house is limited and you have to be very intentional about what you –  


Chris Martenson: Everything. 


Erica Martenson: – Have in there. So I was, like, but I don't want to get rid of them, and I like the colors. So I just made a, one braided rug, and loved it so much that now I'm replacing all my rugs with braided ones.  


Chris Martenson: Cool.  


Erica Martenson: So that's the, like, very immediate plan. 


Chris Martenson: Well, if if we wanted to put together some kind of a skills workshop though, and or –  


Erica Martenson: Sure. 


Chris Martenson: – A skills fair –  


Erica Martenson: Sure sure. 


Chris Martenson: – Where people could come and maybe learn some things, would you be down for that? 


Erica Martenson: Yeah absolutely, if whatever, whatever people want to learn. We could something, like, if people want to learn, like, fire by friction? That, honestly, is maybe the most empowering skill I've ever learned.  


And I am, by the way, I I know how to do it, but I am not yet a master by any stretch. There's just, it's one of those things where you tweak any one of the variables, and it just throws the whole thing off kilter. 


Chris Martenson: Yeah. 


Erica Martenson: So you have to do it a long time to learn all of those variables. But I –  


Chris Martenson: But it's doable. 


Erica Martenson: – Love it and it's doable. And if people want to learn, like, the basics of it, it just, it, like you said with the shoelace story; it's just so nice to just walk out in the woods and be, like, "I could just start a fire right here with my boot if I wanted to." So whatever, basket weaving, I don't care –  


Chris Martenson: Yep. 


Erica Martenson: – Fermenting. 


Chris Martenson: Basket weaving, it sounds good –  


Erica Martenson: Yeah? 


Chris Martenson: – For one thing. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: Cheese making. 


Erica Martenson: Sure. 


Chris Martenson: Could we make cheese? 


Erica Martenson: Sure. 


Chris Martenson: You just need enough milk to, sort of, pull it off? 


Erica Martenson: Yeah. No, you absolutely could. Yeah. 


Chris Martenson: Great. 


Erica Martenson: A few hours. 


Chris Martenson: Alright, well, Erica Martenson, it's so good to have –  


Erica Martenson: Chris Martenson. 


Chris Martenson: – You here.  


Erica Martenson: I know, it's fun. 


Chris Martenson: Now, now people have a little bit of a sense of what the household was like. 


Erica Martenson: Well, a little taste. 


Chris Martenson: A little, a little taste, there are more stories. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah.  


Chris Martenson: Yeah, alright, well, thanks for coming and I appreciate it. 


Erica Martenson: Yeah, dad, thanks for having me. 


Chris Martenson: And let's do this again. 


Erica Martenson: Cool. 

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  • Tue, Sep 07, 2021 - 12:57pm



    Status: Member

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    Posts: 1


    Thank you for this amazing video, and all the work that you do!

    I have been watching your content since last year, and not only have I utilized all this information to prepare, but have found it to be insightful.  This particular video, I found  relatable in various areas.  I have been trying to come to terms with how I move forward with my future.  In many ways, I have always dreamed of owning my own farm, and/or living in a tiny home.  This video has given me hope.

    My husband is an ironworker, and a builder all around.  My background is an architect by trade.  I currently work for a major health care system in my state.  Oddly enough, I left the A/E firm that I worked for 15 years at the onset of this pandemic to join this health care system as a Project Manager in Design and Construction.  When I started going through the onboarding process, besides undergoing an intensive background check, I also had a full health screening.  It was discovered that I did not have antibodies for the Chicken Pox, so last April I went for my vaccination series.  I guess, I mention this to validate that I am not anti-vaxer.  I am a 39 year old female, and six years ago I was diagnosed with Thyroid Cancer.  I am in remission at this point and in good health.

    I have my own vegetable garden for the last nine years, and I am member at a local farm where I volunteer regularly.  I love to can my produce, dry my herbs.  Most recently interested in getting my own chickens.  I deeply care about our environment, and have spent many hours cleaning up the beach.  I am not perfect by any means, but like so many, I am deeply troubled with the state of our nation, and our globe.

    I am in AWE, that within the next month I could potentially get me fired over a decision that relates to my body, my temple. I refuse to take part in this manipulation.  Despite my previous health issues, I have always been skeptical of doctors, because of the profit driven industry.  My most recent project, I have been given is to open a vaccination "station" in a shopping mall.  It must be complete within the next two weeks.  I have never felt more conflicted in my life.  It is in my nature to accept a challenge and complete it.  I am competitive by nature, and I love construction.

    So now, I have two weeks to complete a project that I want no part of, and two weeks following I will get fired for not allowing an experimental gene therapy to be injected in my body.  Thankfully, I feel like I have many options, as I said before I am not a healthcare professional.  I truly believe,  when one door closes, another opens.  I will not allow someone to intimidate me with fear.  However, I like many, I  sit here facing life changing decisions.

    So, Thank you for your inspiration!  Thank you for your continued effort to bring good information to the forefront.  Thank you for sharing you, and your daughters story.  My consideration of a tiny home, and farm seems more realistic.  Perhaps, I begin my journey to search for land to build a tiny home, and then pursue a new business as an architect designing and building tiny homes.


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  • Tue, Sep 07, 2021 - 2:17pm



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    Just getting started on this but wanted to say,

    That treasure hunt story was just amazing.  What a gift to your children in so many ways.

    So far, the interview is also putting me in mind of this somewhat dark observation:

    If so many interrelated skills are required to live well as part of an interdependent community, were these skills lost incidentally as we built the modern world or was making us all dependent part of the plan all along?

    As a middle class wage earning type I've had time to reflect that a big part of what we call "poverty" is really a state of being.  Of being unable to do... well much of anything to improve your lot.   More and more I feel like the difference between the welfare recipient and the Nike executive is one of cash on hand and the attainment of "skills" that have no meaning outside of this tiny flash of time we call modernity.


    This in turn combines with the observation here that we exist in an abusive relationship with the owners of the system.  Did they make us dependent upon them on purpose?


    Will finish this later, but man its great so far.

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  • Tue, Sep 07, 2021 - 2:29pm

    Eva Danielsson

    Eva Danielsson

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    Posts: 3


    Thank you for interesting and educational videos. And a comment about climatepsychosis.

    Eva here. I live in Sweden and me and my husband have been watching all Chris' videos about covid-19. Thank you for the data and professional comments. It has been very helpful in these days of misinformation. Now we watch your interview with your lovely daughter and become astonished that both of you seem to believe in a manmade Climate Change. We have read about this as a scientific topic as well as a political issue for over forty years and it is obvious just a hoax. To make people scared. There is lots of data confirming that Climate Change is not manmade and actually not even bad. On the contrary it has been beneficial for mankind with the last hundred years of warming and following increased CO2levels. The sun rules whatever IPCC or the mainstream media say.

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  • Tue, Sep 07, 2021 - 2:36pm

    Eva Danielsson

    Eva Danielsson

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  • Tue, Sep 07, 2021 - 3:06pm



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    Perfect timing for potentially your most ethereal interview

    Thank you Chris and Erica for sharing a few of your stories today, and pathways to balance so much of what can quickly and unexpectedly go off-kilter in life. I wish everyone could see this and gain from it, planful methods of living life 'delicately' even through the most challenging times.

    xoxo from Central Texas,


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  • Tue, Sep 07, 2021 - 4:11pm



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    JMeyer206 said:

    Now I'm inspired to learn to start a fire using friction!  ( just bought a flint/steel gizmo, but what more fun it would be to use my shoelace!)

    Thanks so much.

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  • Tue, Sep 07, 2021 - 4:41pm


    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Gold Member

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    Posts: 925


    shoe laces?

    I saw you reverse wrapping that cordage at the beginning of the video.  It looks like you've got  a bit of experience doing that.  I know that ups the bow drill game, especially in a one night outing, but perhaps you didn't even need your shoe laces.

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  • Tue, Sep 07, 2021 - 4:53pm


    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 925



    [9/8 10:30 AM - edited to add a few more details.]

    Thank you for mentioning that Erica.  Just yesterday, my 16 year old daughter and I were sitting on a foot bridge over a marshy Adirondack brook after a night out far enough into the wilderness that the only sounds of industry even on a windless morning were an occasional airplane way up there.  There had been a brief heavy shower a couple of hours earlier and now the sky was a brilliant blue with a few cumulus clouds and a moderate northwest breeze.

    We saw a single monarch butterfly moving among the wildflowers as it drifted slowly southwestward on it's migration.  Now this probably wasn't the ideal place to watch migrating monarchs and perhaps not the ideal day.  There have been a few years recently with at least a few more monarchs, although this year doesn't seem to be one of them.

    My daughter asked me if I remember more monarchs.  I told her about Columbus Day weekend 1994 driving up the Adirondack Northway, not far west from where we sat - heading to lead the first of many wilderness skills/naturalist skills program I taught back then.  It was a warm October day.  There were so many Monarchs flying southwestward that the shoulder was literally littered with the small fraction of them that got hit by cars.  It was an intense moment for me as I realized I was hitting at least a few of them myself even as I was driving to try to help other people develop their nature connection.

    My daughter's response:  "Wow, those are important memories.  We should document them."  That particular experience is already in an old journal of mine.  Maybe I will task her with collecting stories from me and others.

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  • Tue, Sep 07, 2021 - 5:10pm



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    charming and insightful

    Thanks for a charming and insightful interview. Very refreshing from the usual topics here and therefore much needed. You two have the same laugh 🙂

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  • Tue, Sep 07, 2021 - 5:15pm


    Arthur Robey

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    Posts: 1328


    That Grass!

    My immediate reaction to the video was "Wow! Look at that grass." It is good enough to bypass the cows and eat it myself.

    It is not to be assumed.

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  • Tue, Sep 07, 2021 - 7:45pm



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    Thank you.     You are dead on with your observation about Mammon, and of course the corollary, "the love of money is the root of all evil" is not far behind.   It's not hard to see it in out modern "capitalist" world and particularly the U.S. where  it's clear that the political class has completely sold out for money.   Money is the god of the west and that is why we are out of balance.   The twist is, since 1971, that the Fed and central banks create it ex nihilo and people chase it like greyhounds.  Just look at crypto and NFTs, its fiat on steroids;  now the millennials and gen z can join the chase for money.

    Bravo for the observation.

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  • Tue, Sep 07, 2021 - 10:24pm



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    Medical treatment

    Thanks to the some who do the 8 to 5 thing, wage slaves.  They cure cancer, among lots of other things.  Seems like Marie Antoinette did the lil bo peep thing.

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  • Tue, Sep 07, 2021 - 10:26pm



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    That was amazing. Thanks for sharing such an intimate glimpse into your family life. Erica, I am so happy you are doing well.

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  • Tue, Sep 07, 2021 - 10:44pm



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    Best, most insightful and motivating interview you’ve ever recorded.  Researching my kids’ treasure hunt now.

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  • Tue, Sep 07, 2021 - 10:56pm



    Status: Bronze Member

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    Glowing Interview


    The glow on each of your faces throughout the interview was uplifting.

    I've always admired your teaching abilities, your ability to simplify very complex subjects, and your ability to see through the mainstream smokescreens and flesh out the (often ugly) truths that are sometimes not acceptable to mention in polite conversation.

    Now I see your greatest superpower just might be as a parent. Kudos.


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  • Tue, Sep 07, 2021 - 10:57pm

    Rebecca W

    Rebecca W

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    Posts: 3


    Thank you for sharing yourself in this time of need

    Let me start by saying thank you, for sharing time with your daughter, for sharing a part of who you are as a dad & for risking everything to help keep people informed with your videos. My dad introduced me to you in Feb 2020 as we started to realize the pandemic was emerging. My father had a trip to Asia planned which was how we figured out something was going on... obviously the trip was canceled & our lives were forever changed.
    I was a trial attorney in my heyday in a large metropolitan city, so my research skills are still strong and I quickly became obsessed. Your videos helped me move 2 businesses, 2 dogs, a cat, a horse & husband to the country with enough food & supplies for 6 months. I made it with 3 days to spare before they shut the state down. Thereafter, I was able to base future plans from the information you presented & led me to; I often times read your sources etc. Getting through 2020 was challenging but absolutely manageable because of the sacrifices you made. I am grateful. Thank you.
    That brings us to 2021. In my wildest dreams I could never imagine what is about to transpire would be possible. I am getting call after call asking for help from professional colleagues about to lose their job because they won't acquiesce to the jab; they are unable to eat in a restaurant or go to a gym and many are about to lose their career, health insurance etc.
    Prior to this pandemic I typically had wine, water and ketchup in my refrigerator. I ate out every meal & worked & socialized. We have no children & love our businesses. Obviously in 2020 that had to change...
    From your strong words... I now have 2 huge beautiful fruitful hydroponic gardens. They yield 72 extraordinary plants including more fruits and veggies than we can eat; I often share with friends & neighbors. I maintain 1 (36) pod unit all winter via lighting. I have learned to cook using the foods from my garden and am now learning about canning, dehydrating and freezing excess veggies.
    I have also spent a tremendous amount of time going to local farms, meeting the farmers, learning to shop from the farms vs the grocery store. I am proud to say we now eat 70% of all our food from local farms and cook every meal unless we go out on a Saturday night. I am slowly trying to disconnect from corporate America. Your daughter was right, you go to learn 1 skill and it opens pandoras box of new skill sets needed. I thrive on challenge, I love information and this quest to become somewhat self sufficient gives me great satisfaction on so many levels. Firstly, it gives me the foundation upon which I can stand and say, I need nothing & no one, because I have skills; and secondly, it gives me the ability to withdraw consent and no longer participate in a charade I do not believe in.
    Your information, leadership, & guidance has changed my world as well as my close friends & family members. The sharing of your life energy, your knowledge and skills can be daunting. Your sacrifice is greatly appreciated. Thank you. To others who are overwhelmed, one day at a time, you are not alone, one task at a time. Rome was not built in a day.

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  • Tue, Sep 07, 2021 - 11:16pm



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    Sounds like child abuse to me.....

    Martenson school of hard knocks for hyper-active children.....

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  • Tue, Sep 07, 2021 - 11:48pm

    Joseph Thomas

    Joseph Thomas

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    A very lucky father and a very lucky daughter to have each other.  And thanks to those who developed the treatments to make Hodgekins survivable today, has not always been the case.

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  • Wed, Sep 08, 2021 - 1:36am



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    JennyEyles said:

    Dear Chris and Erica - I can't recall ever watching such an intersting and deeply moving discussion/interview. You are both so wonderful.

    Thanks so much for this exceptional video.

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  • Wed, Sep 08, 2021 - 7:48am



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    brushhog said:

    Would love to watch but I wont support youtube with my viewership. Is this video available on a less socially destructive video platform?

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  • Wed, Sep 08, 2021 - 9:28am

    David Huang

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    Here it is on Odysee

    Brushhog, I've found that now they usually have these available on Odysee as well when they are posted.  Here is a link to this one.,:6

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  • Wed, Sep 08, 2021 - 9:44am



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    brushhog said:


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  • Wed, Sep 08, 2021 - 12:08pm



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    Best. Interview. Ever.

    Having been on this site for quite a while, and having seen more interviews than I can count - with some real all-stars, too - I loved this one best. Perhaps it's because I'm a father of two daughters, but the discussions around how things are going today mixed with the obvious familial bond resonated strongly with me. That's one amazing kid, Chris.

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  • Wed, Sep 08, 2021 - 1:12pm



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    That was pretty good

    Not that any of us need to tell you, you raised an amazing daughter.  Thank you for sharing.


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  • Wed, Sep 08, 2021 - 1:43pm



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    Chris …..Can I be your adopted child?

    After watching the interview I thought how cool it would be if you adopted me. I really want to do a treasure hunt……But since I’m older than you it might look weird.

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  • Wed, Sep 08, 2021 - 4:19pm



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    Genuine smiles and love

    In stark contrast to the "darkside" that we increasingly look directly in the eye each day, here a video full of genuine smiles and love for one another.   'Nuff said...   Bullshit - doesn't have to be this way 🙂   Very cool. Respect.

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  • Wed, Sep 08, 2021 - 6:18pm



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    You Done Good

    You and Becca done real good. Congrats

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  • Wed, Sep 08, 2021 - 6:56pm



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    Heart warming...

    This interview was a much needed supporting salve for my spirit... seeing people who walk and live in their integrity is always so uplifting.

    Erica: be well and be strong. And keep doing what you are doing. It is so obvious you are on the right path. Keep going. We believe in you - just like we do your dad. 🙏🏻💪🏻


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  • Wed, Sep 08, 2021 - 8:18pm



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    My favourite part of this...

    ...was the discussion around the cancer treatments.   The entire tone of the thing was just so rational and so human.  It was like visiting a foreign land with a functioning culture and being blown away by the difference.

    This interview is like the antidote to fear.



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  • Wed, Sep 08, 2021 - 11:09pm



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    Great discussion

     A joy to see the humanity of Chris and his daughter. The mutual admiration, respect, and love for each other is truly evident. My apologies if I missed it, but what is Erica's formal education? Curious because she, like dear ole dad, is articulate, and communicates very well. Erica's inner peace and resiliency shines through. Appears she had a pretty good teacher. 🙂   Thinking back, Chris' absence from PP is now fully understandable. Thanks to you both sharing.

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  • Wed, Sep 08, 2021 - 11:30pm



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    Great interview

    Absolutely awesome!!

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  • Thu, Sep 09, 2021 - 5:24am


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    FALSE ALARM e-book by Gösta Pettersson

    Only costs 130 Kroner!

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  • Thu, Sep 09, 2021 - 7:40am



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    Would never know

    That you’re related :/   Never quite heard that tone in your voice either.  Would love to see follow up videos

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  • Fri, Sep 10, 2021 - 10:20pm

    Island girl

    Island girl

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    Posts: 238



    Three years ago, I planted a garden of native flowers in my suburban backyard. Each summer since, we have seen a solitary monarch. It makes me so sad.

    Moving to the countryside where there is a lot of monoculture. Planning for more pollinator gardens and permaculture over the longer term.

    This is a wonderful site you've built, Chris (and Adam overt at Wealthion). Be well, Erica.


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  • Fri, Sep 10, 2021 - 11:20pm


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    000 said:

    Lots of Monarchs in Hudson River Park at 24th Street in NYC. The irony here that Hudson River Park maintains native species so all sorts of migrants show up at different times of year, in the city. Once you get enough gardens in no doubt Mother with send them your way.

    Monarch Butterfly

    Monarchs on the Hudson


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  • Sat, Sep 11, 2021 - 5:59am



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    Posts: 20


    Butterflies and practicalities

    Butterflies seem to be the thing these days. I noticed one getting stuck on the door of my workshop at work. I was too busy to open the door and let it out and I figured it would find its way out eventually, which it did.

    Thyroid issues also seem to be a thing of these days. I noticed a lump in my throat, I went to the doctor and she said it was probably not serious, but did an appointment for further testing. I've been having trouble sleeping lately, and the doctor said it was possibly related to the thyroid. Reading on the Internet, it seems likely to me that I have an overactive thyroid, and there is medication for that sort of issue, so I reckon I'll probably be all right.

    On a practical note, I resonate with the comment about wondering whether we have kept all the skills we need, if the situation keeps degrading further. There is a huge gap between our society and say, pre-industrial societies. I'm an electronics techie and I know old-fashioned electronics is pretty much a dying breed. I'm talking about the stuff that isn't surface mount technology and doesn't need robots to keep going. If anybody has free time in their hands and want to learn a new skill, learning how to fix old-fashioned electronic equipment would be a good bet, in my opinion.


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  • Sat, Sep 11, 2021 - 2:40pm

    Andy in the Sun

    Andy in the Sun

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    old-fashioned techies


    On a practical note, I resonate with the comment about wondering whether we have kept all the skills we need,

    I fully with you on that. There is a type of arrogance in the current generations who believe with that "smart thing" in their pocket they are so advanced know and understand everything - but actually nothing. They don't realize that actually the only thing they are lucky of having is, that nature has not put them on a "real test" so far.

    If I am looking back at when I was teen, I remember my grandmother had a gardening book/encyclopedia that impressed me then. It was bigger and thicker than the bible (well... I agree, the bible was printed on much thinner paper) - it was full of tips & tricks with wonderful illustrations and even some calculations. Unfortunately, I don't know where that book ended up now, but it must have been from the 1920th or even before. Today, just remembering on this book reminds me on how much we (current generations) underestimate the practical knowledge our ancestors had.

    A handful years ago I stumbled over the low-tech community. It's worth to have a look at them.

    And btw Maria, nice to see that there are some old-fashioned electronic freaks here who an still solder a transistor (or even electron tube) circuit together.   😉

    Indeed, we are a slowly dying breed.

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  • Sat, Sep 11, 2021 - 3:21pm



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    Good Observation

    You are definitely on point about the electronics.  I don't think people realize how much spying is occurring from our electronics.  Bluetooth being utilized to move signals point to point from connected devices without our knowledge and a lot more.  Smart TVs that are utilizing 1984 spying by watching us even when we're not watching it, Ring cameras, Echo and Nest devices listening and recording 24/7.  Or is it your refrigerator, themostat, or door lock?  And don't forget all those nifty little Amazon vans running around are recording houses and vehicles every day.  You don't need to buy from Amazon for them to already know what you drive and who you are and what family members live there.  It is time to head back to older technologies.

    With your potential thyroid issues, you should work with your doctor or a naturopath to fix your terrain, which is likely to correct your thyroid problem.  Best of luck.

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  • Sun, Sep 12, 2021 - 6:11am



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    Marvelous Martensons!

    To create and propagate such a great, fantastic multi-generational legacy such as this, you and your progeny must be tapped into the cosmic universal life force or something along those lines. Long may you run.

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  • Mon, Sep 13, 2021 - 4:17am



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    Joined: Sep 05 2010

    Posts: 106


    CrLaan said:

    Corona, False Alarm? Facts and Figures Paperback Karina Reiss
    in English.

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  • Mon, Sep 13, 2021 - 5:17pm



    Status: Member

    Joined: Sep 10 2008

    Posts: 27


    Recommend Books on Cheese Making?

    Thank you for this wonderful conversation!

    In regards to making cheese, we have been wanting to learn more about how to make different hard cheeses without purchasing cultures.  We have learned to make a couple varieties, but it sounds like Erica may know more about this, and how to vary amounts of rennet, and timings of the stages, etc.  Might there be a book or some references that Erica could recommend about the science of cheese making, without depending on purchasing cultures?  Thank you!  🙂

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