Daily Digest

Daily Digest 9/6 - Down Is The New Up, The Great Bank Robbery, TX Wildfires Continue To Spread

Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 10:45 AM
  • Syria Allows Red Cross Officials to Visit Prison
  • European Bankers Urge Leaders to Move Quickly on Debt Crisis
  • Down is the New Up
  • Europeans Talk of Sharp Change in Fiscal Affairs
  • The Great Bank Robbery
  • Getting A Grip On The Grid
  • Wildfire Destroys Nearly 500 Homes in Texas
  • Wildfires Rip Through Sun-Scorched Texas

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Economy

Syria Allows Red Cross Officials to Visit Prison (jdargis)

Campaigners say that prisoners are subject to all manner of torture, and many videos posted online in the past several weeks have shown detainees being assaulted and beaten severely by Syrian armed troops. Last week, when the attorney general of Hama Province announced his resignation to protest the government’s crackdown on demonstrators, he said hundreds had been killed in jails and police stations, many of them by torture.

European Bankers Urge Leaders to Move Quickly on Debt Crisis (jdargis)

Europe needs to “make a quantum step up in economic and political integration,” Mr. Draghi said as the bond yields of Greece, Italy and other countries with weak finances jumped Monday amid investor fears that such efforts might be failing. He and Mr. Trichet addressed a forum in Paris that focused on the world three years after the collapse of Lehman Brothers.

Down is the New Up (Ilene)

When the World’s 3rd largest economy is manipulating it’s currency on a daily basis, of course the Global markets are going to be thrown into chaos. Every day the BOJ tries to debase their currency they must buy other currencies or foreign stocks or gold or silver or oil – ANYTHING BUT YEN to make the Yen less valuable as compared to another relative basis.

Europeans Talk of Sharp Change in Fiscal Affairs (jdargis)

Officials have been hesitant to publicly endorse such a drastic change. But privately they say the issue has gained urgency in recent months, as it has become clear that Europe’s current approach, which requires unanimity on any significant moves, is unwieldy and inefficient. The idea is being promoted by some global financial officials, who worry about the risks that continued uncertainty in Europe poses to the global economy.

The Great Bank Robbery (jdargis)

Mainstream megabanks are puzzling in many respects. It is (now) no secret that they have operated so far as large sophisticated compensation schemes, masking probabilities of low-risk, high-impact “Black Swan” events and benefiting from the free backstop of implicit public guarantees. Excessive leverage, rather than skills, can be seen as the source of their resulting profits, which then flow disproportionately to employees, and of their sometimes-massive losses, which are borne by shareholders and taxpayers.

Getting A Grip On The Grid (jdargis)

A prominent grid expert involved in testing the technology agreed, but said that in some cases it could lead to reducing the capacity, if better data showed that the temperature had been underestimated and the maximum safe loading was lower than what is assumed today.

With or without new technology, the companies that own transmission lines have been ordered by the North American Electric Reliability Corporation, an industry group that has governmental powers, to survey all of their lines in the next three years and get a better idea of the clearances between the bare wire of the transmission lines and the natural and man-made objects on which they might droop.

Wildfire Destroys Nearly 500 Homes in Texas (jdargis)

Firefighters lined up on a state highway outside Bastrop and converged around homes as they caught fire, hoping to save them. Helicopters and planes loaded with water could be seen flying to and from the fire. When winds increased, flames would flare up and pop out over the tops of trees.

The wildfire destroyed 476 homes, and about 250 firefighters were working around the clock, using bulldozers and pumper trucks against the fire, Bastrop County Judge Ronnie McDonald said.

Wildfires Rip Through Sun-Scorched Texas (jdargis)

Texas is battling its worst fire season in state history. A record 3.5 million acres -- an area roughly the size of Connecticut, Perry said -- have burned since the start of the season in November as hot and dry weather, coupled with a historic drought, made conditions ripe for rapid fire growth.

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58 Comments

saxplayer00o1's picture
saxplayer00o1
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portals's picture
portals
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Wildfire Destroys Nearly 500 Homes in Texas

This story has just been updated.  As of now, it is up to 1000 homes.  This thing is bad!

latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/09/texas-wildfires-more-than-1000-homes-lost.html

heffe's picture
heffe
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Problems = Profit!
portals wrote:

This story has just been updated.  As of now, it is up to 1000 homes.  This thing is bad!

latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/09/texas-wildfires-more-than-1000-homes-lost.html

 

Nah its not so bad, think about all the money that can be made from rebuilding those houses!  Thats how monetary economics works! Problems equal profit! 

Even better is that the avg house comes with 7-10 tons of waste (of which most is highly toxic and takes millennia to degrade) and will likely employ migrational workers from Mexico, and have to be rebuilt in the next few decades because its not profitable to have a house that doesn't fall apart.

YAY! Our infinite economic growth machine that the majority of the world blindly accepts with religious fervor can be saved by artificial scarcity and planned/intrinsic obsolescence! Lets consume as much as possible for as much profit as possible because that how stupid we are!

Even when there are 19 million vacant homes with only 4 million homeless. We have 5 times the amount of resources than people and yet, because we have to maintain profitability and our almost god-like obsession with money and its 'perfect' utility!

We throw away about two-thirds of all the food we grow for humans because of the money system.

All of you who are much older than I am, who have blindly accepted this cancerous monetary system, should be ashamed of yourselves. Im only 24 and I understand much more about monetary economics then you could fathom. This next decade will see the younger generations literally flaying you older folk alive, as the system you've supported for whole life has destroyed this planet and will destroy our lives. You ignorant, greedy, unobservant fools, why was it so hard for you to see how backwards money is? Future generations will consider your belief in money as 'the most bizarre thought delusion in all human history". It is literally a cancer that will destroy the human race, unless the immune system of logic and reason found in individuals such as myself can destroy the cancer before it destroys us.

Doug's picture
Doug
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heffe
Quote:

All of you who are much older than I am, who have blindly accepted this cancerous monetary system, should be ashamed of yourselves. Im only 24 and I understand much more about monetary economics then you could fathom. This next decade will see the younger generations literally flaying you older folk alive, as the system you've supported for whole life has destroyed this planet and will destroy our lives. You ignorant, greedy, unobservant fools, why was it so hard for you to see how backwards money is? Future generations will consider your belief in money as 'the most bizarre thought delusion in all human history". It is literally a cancer that will destroy the human race, unless the immune system of logic and reason found in individuals such as myself can destroy the cancer before it destroys us.

My goodness, you've got quite the grudge.  I have to say, speaking for all us "older folk", I don't look forward to the prospect of you youngsters "literally flaying [us] alive."  I guess I should stop my kids (slightly younger than you) from coming back home for fear of the consequences.  But then, holiday dinners may be a bit lonely.  Plus, I really like my kids and have reared them to be socially and economically aware, and generally all around good people.  I don't know how they'll take to flaying old people alive.

As for you monetary views, you haven't offered an alternative to some form of money as a medium of exchange.  Are you suggesting we trade using barter only?  That system may be a bit klunky to function smoothly in any complex economic system, like ours is apt to be even after the crash.

As far as the rest of your ad hom attacks, I personally plead not guilty, and hope that your future posts are a little more thoughtful and less vituperative, lest you run afoul of the moderators.

Doug

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SingleSpeak
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Well Thought Out Post - Not.

What is bizarre is you blaming us for something that started before we were born.

Also, see dictionary for definition of the word "literal".

Tommygun's picture
Tommygun
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Profit is not the problem

Heffe----

Profit is not the problem. A monetary system is not the problem. Greed is part of the problem and lack of economical living is part of the problem also. The great Chinese sage Lao Tzu,  who lived a heck of a long time ago.. said .that there were three great virtues  ......."economy" is one of them. He was referring to not wasting and taking only what one needs. Thus greed arises out of not practicing virtue and economy.

It takes consciousness for people to change . Money is the exchange for goods and services. Greed and desire for money alone is excess.

Use your frustration and discontent to help solve the problem. Be the change you want to see in the world. We are counting on you and your generation to help us old folks learn from our mistakes.

Tom

 

mememonkey's picture
mememonkey
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You flatter

You flatter yourself, and display  the rash judgment of youth.   Good luck with the flaying your elders!   I suggest you not bring a a filet knife to a gun fight.

 

 

Namaste

-mememonkey

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Johnny Oxygen
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All of you who are much

All of you who are much older than I am, who have blindly accepted this cancerous monetary system, should be ashamed of yourselves. Im only 24 and I understand much more about monetary economics then you could fathom. This next decade will see the younger generations literally flaying you older folk alive, as the system you've supported for whole life has destroyed this planet and will destroy our lives. You ignorant, greedy, unobservant fools, why was it so hard for you to see how backwards money is? Future generations will consider your belief in money as 'the most bizarre thought delusion in all human history". It is literally a cancer that will destroy the human race, unless the immune system of logic and reason found in individuals such as myself can destroy the cancer before it destroys us.

So you're angry?

When I was 24 I thought I had it all figured out too. I also thought everyone else was the problem.

yoshhash's picture
yoshhash
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Swiss National Bank not fooling around...


Swiss National Bank says it will buy all other currencies in unlimited quantities, causing the Franc to drop 8% instantaneously.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/06/us-swiss-snb-idUSTRE7851LV20110906

SagerXX's picture
SagerXX
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Hey Heffe

The disappointing thing for me about your diatribe is that if you spent some time perusing the untold reams of material here, you'd see that this place is full of people appalled by the state of things. As you quite obviously are. But even better, we are actively engaged in problem solving. I respectfully suggest that your passion is misdirected. Constructive action is where it's at. Viva! -- Sager

derekrawson's picture
derekrawson
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Problems = Profit

And therefore Profit = Problems

Quote:

 It is literally a cancer that will destroy the human race, unless the immune system of logic and reason found in individuals such as myself can destroy the cancer before it destroys us.

Wasting your passion here, heffe,. This is a great news site but most of the members seem unwilling to even look, let alone explore, outside their box. No answers left inside this box.

Thankfully there are other more progressive places on the internet to discuss a post exchange-based economy.

Poet's picture
Poet
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Yes, We Need Jobs. But What Kind?

Yes, We Need Jobs. But What Kind?
"I recently led a research team to the Rio Grande Valley in Texas, where Gov. Rick Perry, a contender for the Republican presidential nomination, has advertised his track record of creating jobs. From January 2000 to January 2010, employment in the Valley grew by a remarkable 42 percent, compared with our nation’s anemic 1 percent job growth. But the median wage for adults in the Valley between 2005 and 2008 was a stunningly low $8.14 an hour (in 2008 dollars). One in four employed adults earned less than $6.19 an hour. The Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas reported that the per capita income in the two metropolitan statistical areas spanning the Valley ranked lowest and second lowest in the nation."
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/06/opinion/yes-we-need-jobs-but-what-kind...

Do businesses that pay minimum wage for jobs get their cost of labor subsidized by the government in the form of food stamps, Medicaid, free clinics, other services, etc? Hmm... I wonder.

Poet

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Poet
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Why The Young Jobless Will Ruin Your Portfolio

Isn't this a Crash Course concept?

Why The Young Jobless Will Ruin Your Portfolio
"The leading edge of the Baby Boom is retiring this year. That means the primary holders of stocks and bonds and other securities will need to sell those securities for income. Without a flourishing younger America, those securities aren’t going to have willing buyers. It’s a death spiral of market economics. That means we’re all going to get poorer: from young people with no money to older Americans with a bunch of securities they can’t sell. It’s going to get worse over time."
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-the-young-jobless-will-ruin-your-po...

Poet

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doorwarrior
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hefe & derekrawson

How about some positive input about what you think we should do. Tell us how you think things should be. What can you offer to help solve the problem or what type of system do you want to see in the future. I don't think flaying will work very well as most of us old guys are pretty tough.

Rich

derekrawson's picture
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Flaying?

I think (hope) heffe was speaking metaphorically with his/her? reference to flaying. For people stuck inside the capitalism box though, the collapsing system will do its own flaying.

Surely the answer in the short term is to opt out of the consumerist model, get involved with, and find out what you can do for, your local community, give and contribute without expectation of return, get used to living way more simply.

In the longer run, when we have survived that hurdle, we can begin to organise on a broader scale - mapping resources, using technology to automate production and distribution, begin gearing up co-operatively instead of competitively, etc. etc. Just like it's all been described at thezeitgeistmovement.com. Oops, there I go again. Another slapping coming up.

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I agree with Hefe.

I agree with Hefe.

What I would like is for his generation and all subsequent generations to make garden gnomes as effigies of us.

Every morning at sunrise all the menfolk must troop outside and do their ablutions on the gnomes so that they understand the consequence of immoral profligacy.

Just to rub in the point here is a video on Australian coal seam gas.

We have thoroughly earned their approbation

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britinbe
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just as Chris stated in the CC
Poet wrote:

Isn't this a Crash Course concept?

Why The Young Jobless Will Ruin Your Portfolio
"The leading edge of the Baby Boom is retiring this year. That means the primary holders of stocks and bonds and other securities will need to sell those securities for income. Without a flourishing younger America, those securities aren’t going to have willing buyers. It’s a death spiral of market economics. That means we’re all going to get poorer: from young people with no money to older Americans with a bunch of securities they can’t sell. It’s going to get worse over time."
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-the-young-jobless-will-ruin-your-po...

Poet

As predicted in the CC.  Good to see the media are catching up

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Mirv
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Heffe is basically right, lets be patient

"The most powerful force on earth is the human soul on fire."  Many on this forum may react negatively but you have something valuable that is lacking in the young people I see everyday.   Heffe, as you work through your logical inconsistancies and learn more about the problems, please do not lose your passion and remember to enlist others older than yourself for assistance.  I recommend reading the classics, especially the great Greek philosophers and the biographies of those who participated in great changes in history.  All of us are swimming in an ocean of miss-information overload.  The scientist and lawyer use the tool of the dialectic to find truth.  If you remember that and keep an open-learning mind, I and others here are willing to help you somehow.  We need leaders who are passionate, understand the seriousness  of the problem and who remain open minded.  I hope you are or can become that...............  

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Well stated
Mirv wrote:

"The most powerful force on earth is the human soul on fire."  Many on this forum may react negatively but you have something valuable that is lacking in the young people I see everyday.   Heffe, as you work through your logical inconsistancies and learn more about the problems, please do not lose your passion and remember to enlist others older than yourself for assistance.  I recommend reading the classics, especially the great Greek philosophers and the biographies of those who participated in great changes in history.  All of us are swimming in an ocean of miss-information overload.  The scientist and lawyer use the tool of the dialectic to find truth.  If you remember that and keep an open-learning mind, I and others here are willing to help you somehow.  We need leaders who are passionate, understand the seriousness  of the problem and who remain open minded.  I hope you are or can become that...............  

+10 Mirv

Synergy is better than division.

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heffe
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My apologies

 It is a terrible habit of mine to pour my fustrations onto these posts without taking time to re-read and adjust it to a more thoughtful, beneficial approach. I may speak big words, but I could never inflict harm on people as I am probably the biggest softy there is.

I am livid with fustration due to the ignorance of my peers and family. I fear for their lives if economic decline gets any worse. Everyone I know is scraping by, living off UI or financial aid, and ignoring all of my concerns.  

Im happy that there are individuals such as yourselves, who helped me to understand more about this world. I regret being so hostile, but from my viewpoint, our economy has seemed backwards since my memory began. When I was 5 or 6, I took a trip to the county landfill with my grandpa; I was utterly disappointed. I was confused that the adults dumped their trash into a hole. It didn't seem right or even logical. My entire life as a youth I was boggled by the landfill, even creating schemes of sending the trash to the sun so it would 'go away'.  What I didn't realize is that trash is a symptom of our economic paradigm.

Companies engaging within the monetary-market modus operandi cannot create the most strategically sustainable products, as that would hinder the sequencing of money creation, thus hindering capital gains, thus no good for business at all. Oregon has been labeled the 'least friendly state towards business', why?

We have one of the highest minimum wages, numerous laws and legislation on forest/river/environmental protection, and a high ratio of sustainability initiatives (Portland for ex, outlawed plastic bags). So, in essence, anything that protects the environment and improves human conditions is against the business mindset. A company would prefer to pay its workers less, and if theres no hinderence of resource acquisition for capital gains, even better!  A cancer is something that needs to grow unhindered without any committed function to its life-host....the exact definition of money as 'growth' is needed to function and it relates in no way to the planet. 

In reference to other posts, such as the claim that money isn't the problem but rather, human greed. Greed is a trait that some humans exhibit, and while most would submit that its 'human nature', this is backwards. There is no NATURE without environment. I can't understand the behavior of a single celled organism without the context of environment, let alone humans. Greed is reactionary propensity towards environment. Money is a tool, but what you are ignoring is how money as a tool interacts with the natural world and the biological needs of humans.

Money creates greed through artificial scarcity, and rewards greedy behavior through profit. The more greedy and ruthless a person in the monetary paradigm, the more profitable they are. Think about how access is determined in our society. Ever since you are a little child you see money as the only route towards access. If you lived in an open access society, where money is not needed, greed would go the way of sacrificing to the gods as it doesn't make sense. Greed makes sense in monetary terms. Not to mention, when we have so much money being created out of money through investing and the stock market, money as a tool becomes detrimental, as it allows a few super-greedy individuals to influence the market as they wish.

Ok my post is getting too long, I thank you all for replying to the post. Alternatives might be 'steady state economy', 'resource based economy', 'open source economy', with restrictions to information and resources based on resource management and not pricing mechanisms, and labor is performed via autonomous, self guided, intrinsically motivated occupations where capital gained is in creating, learning, experiencing, contributing (Wright brothers, Tesla, Watt, most influential inventions were produced in a similar manner).

Take care

heffe's picture
heffe
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My Apologies

I am terrible at pouring fustrations onto posts without re-reading them, and adjusting them to more thoughtful, beneficial approach. I do apologize, and I may speak big words, but in no way could I ever harm anyone.

To keep it short, I'd like to address a few points.

One member claimed that money wasn't the problem, but rather, human greed. What you are ignoring is how money as a tool interacts with humans and the natural world.

Most would claim that greed is 'human nature'.  There is no nature without the context of environment. I can't understand the behavior of a single celled organism without the context of environment, let alone humans. Our nature is to be rigidly programmed by our environments, its how we have been able to survive for so long in so many differing regions. Gene expression is determined by environment.

Money as a tool creates greed through several facets of it modus operandi. First is through artificial scarcity, as mentioned with the food and housing, we have abundance of goods already but restrict access to those goods unless money is brought into play, of which there isn't enough. As Bernard Lieter (designer of the Euro currency system) stated, "We have more than enough food to feed the world, just not enough money to pay for it all." If society was an open access economy, where needs are provided for, greedy behavior would go the same route as sacrificing virgins to the gods; it just doesn't make any sense. In monetary terms, greedy behavior makes perfect sense, which leads to point #2.

Monetary-market economies reward greedy behavior through profit. The more ruthless, selfish, and greedy a person or corporation is, the more profitable they will become. Think about the interests of business when it comes to workers and environment. Companies would prefer to pay their workers less, and if there's no hinderence of resource acquisition for capital gains, even better!

Oregon has been labelled as 'the least friendly state towards business'. Why? 

We have a high minimum wage, numerous laws and legislation on environmental protection, and a high ratio of sustainability initiatives (Portland for ex, outlawed plastic bags). In essence, this means that anything protecting environment or improving human conditions is against the business mindset. 

Post is getting too long, for now I'll provide insights to possible alternatives.

Labor Market- Autonomous, self guided, intrinsically motivated occupations where the capital gained is not in paper or gold, but in the act of creating, learning, contributing (Wright Bro's, Tesla, Watt, Bell, most significant inventions were created in this manner). Eliminate boring, repititve jobs through systems approach and mechanization. (Really 80% of jobs today are irrelevant and only serve to move money around)

Decision making - ground-up, community based approach utilizing the scientific method of inquiry, eliminating top-down, established organizations. Global interactions will still have to take place, so link communities to world through information networking system similar to the internet. Decisions are arrived to through research and the ability to be falsified, enabling an emergent, developing system that isn't hindered by established monetary or govt institutions.

Production/Distribution- Every community provides more than enough energy, food and water for itself. Since global interaction is required, the global networking system can be assessed and available resources are shifted to where they are in demand. Economies are all about satisfying demand and supply relationships, however money is terrible at meeting demand for billions of starving people. Billions of able bodied individuals are starving, with high demand for food, yet those needs aren't provided for as demand is only assessed through money. If someone with money wants a gold plated toilet seat, and someone else with no money wants food, the resources will go to the toilet seat, as our economy only serves the money demand, not human need. (ASS BACKWARDS!) 

Take care

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MarkM
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clarification

heffe,

Thanks for your clarification posts. I think many of us here are livid at times. You express many of my questions and concerns and I am one of those older (54) people. You, at your (I'm assuming) young age have had the benefit of growing up in the age of the internet where many of your questions could be explored. My questions were simply tramped down by my family, friends and our culture. It has only been the past few years that my "awakening" has really begun.

Why is our society ok with piping the food in, the shit out and as long as the lights come on nobody cares about the processes or where they lead?

You have more potential answers than I. I think greed is more easily fed with money and money based cultural desires than without. Although, greed can be expressed by other means. Any new path that your ideas would pursue is one that I can't imagine happening without a tremendous and painful social upheaval. Even then, my concern would be that greedy people would rise to the top and attempt to recreate an existence that, in their mind, satisfies their greed.

Maybe the energy shortages will cause things to become more local and help a transition to a more thoughtful existence.

heffe's picture
heffe
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Circumstances of differing generations
MarkM wrote:

heffe,

Thanks for your clarification posts. I think many of us here are livid at times. You express many of my questions and concerns and I am one of those older (54) people. You, at your (I'm assuming) young age have had the benefit of growing up in the age of the internet where many of your questions could be explored. My questions were simply tramped down by my family, friends and our culture. It has only been the past few years that my "awakening" has really begun.

This is something I have to continually remind myself of. Every person in the world has their characteristics, beliefs, and understandings of the world pressed unto them through circumstance. The only reason my mother ignores my concerns about collapse is due to her experiences which allowed her to reason why collapse is impossible.

 

Everyone is a reflection of their experiences. Someone may claim to be 'self made' but even the motivation to pursue goals and success has to come from an experience which created that value.

I appreciate what the older generations have done, what we need is to continue working together, and rid ourselves of seperatist thinking.

Take care

 

derekrawson's picture
derekrawson
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Posts: 22
Thank you heffe

 

Quote:

Labor Market- Autonomous, self guided, intrinsically motivated occupations where the capital gained is not in paper or gold, but in the act of creating, learning, contributing (Wright Bro's, Tesla, Watt, Bell, most significant inventions were created in this manner). Eliminate boring, repititve jobs through systems approach and mechanization. (Really 80% of jobs today are irrelevant and only serve to move money around)

Decision making - ground-up, community based approach utilizing the scientific method of inquiry, eliminating top-down, established organizations. Global interactions will still have to take place, so link communities to world through information networking system similar to the internet. Decisions are arrived to through research and the ability to be falsified, enabling an emergent, developing system that isn't hindered by established monetary or govt institutions.

THIS is the sort of comment I've been longing to see expressed here. Thank you for your suscint and intelligent thoughts.

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ao
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both nature and nurture
heffe wrote:

IMost would claim that greed is 'human nature'.  There is no nature without the context of environment. I can't understand the behavior of a single celled organism without the context of environment, let alone humans. Our nature is to be rigidly programmed by our environments, its how we have been able to survive for so long in so many differing regions. Gene expression is determined by environment.

heffe,

Your posts are noteworthy and make interesting points, both explicit and implicit.

As far as the implicit, for one, your initial highly emotional post is an indication of how humans, more than the tools they use (such as money) are the problem.  If one who is advocating change in a system (and by the very nature of proposing a change in a system that is faulty, would hopefully hold to higher standards of thought and reasoning removing unnecessary emotion from the equation) cannot control their emotions, it is little wonder that we have conflict in this world.  That's not an accusation, simply an observation.  Changing a system starts with changing one's own actions and exerting a positive influence upon a system starts with exerting positive control over one's own actions.   

As far as the explicit, you say there is no nature without the context of environment.  I would counter that there is a given nature that is genetically determined within a range.  Where, within that genetically given range, an individual or organism falls, is dependent upon environmental influences affecting genetic expression. 

There are other aspects of your post I take issue with and some I agree with but many of these issues have been debated here previously ad nauseum and I'm just not into taking the time to revisit them.  I'll just say that if you or anyone else is going to wander down one of those paths, the zeitgeist path, my response would be create a test model, run it, and prove its worth and then others will follow.  Otherwise, it's just empty theory. 

One has to realize the ecology of human existence and the cyclical nature of all things in this universe to understand that no governmental system, no economic system, no monetary system, no system of any sort will stand in perpetuity.  They undergo life cycles just as the organisms that compromise them do, on micro, meso, and macro level.  There are ways to interrupt some of these cycles but they get into the forbidden topics zone on CM.com.

heffe's picture
heffe
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Posts: 95
Response to ao

As far as the implicit, for one, your initial highly emotional post is an indication of how humans, more than the tools they use (such as money) are the problem.  If one who is advocating change in a system (and by the very nature of proposing a change in a system that is faulty, would hopefully hold to higher standards of thought and reasoning removing unnecessary emotion from the equation) cannot control their emotions, it is little wonder that we have conflict in this world.  That's not an accusation, simply an observation.  Changing a system starts with changing one's own actions and exerting a positive influence upon a system starts with exerting positive control over one's own actions.   

Humans having irrationality through emotion will always exist.  Your focus is still on humans.  Money is thought to be benelovent and simply a tool, My point is that this money as a tool, interacts with the biological needs of humans, as well as the emotional aspects, and even hinders objective thought, in such a way that it needs to be outgrown or it destroys our lives. The rules required for the game of monetary economics, magnify irrationality of greed, competition, dominance, status, and most everything that is negative about our society today. 

Most would say that contemporary society is a reflection of human nature, but its really the opposite. The reason so many humans have mental issues like high anxiety is due to our system forcing us to act against traits that were original to our development. The first 500,000 years of human society have been egalitarian, hunter gatherer societies, of which require collaboration, unity, and little division between resource access. This 'civilized' society of today goes entirely against that, creating division through wealth, thus acts against what we inherently call for, which is empathy, unity, respect, love for each other and the planet.  

 

As far as the explicit, you say there is no nature without the context of environment.  I would counter that there is a given nature that is genetically determined within a range.  Where, within that genetically given range, an individual or organism falls, is dependent upon environmental influences affecting genetic expression. 

I would invite you to earn a BA in Psychology, while working towards a MA in Psychology, study all of the information provided, and then make statements like that. The only way 'human nature' has any real meaning is in universal needs. If those needs are met, a certain set of traits appear, and if those needs are not met, a different set of traits appear.  Deny any of us food for a week and Im sure we'd become highly irrational and desperate for food, perhaps acting violently.

If you take baby with perfect eyesight, and deprive them of light for a few months, they will be forever blind as the cells required for vision die off.  Its referred to as 'neuronal pruning' and is the manner in which environment shapes brain matter, even down to the DNA level. Now take that example with social contexts; if a person grows up in a society where competition is valued, where dominance over others promotes status and wealth, that persons' brain is physically shaped by the environmental stimulus, creating a highly competitive, dominance seeking individual.( Sound like most people today?)

Lastly, to further discredit the backwards assumptions of the majority of people regarding human nature, take any behavior in which you deem as 'genetically programmed' and I can show you how environment rules over that instinctual tendency. Reproduction? How about a Buddhist Monk or devout Protestant Nun? Self-Preservation? How about suicide? Or even better, Kamakazee pilots? Able to rule out their biological tendencies of staying alive, simply for their beliefs and values.

There are other aspects of your post I take issue with and some I agree with but many of these issues have been debated here previously ad nauseum and I'm just not into taking the time to revisit them.  I'll just say that if you or anyone else is going to wander down one of those paths, the zeitgeist path, my response would be create a test model, run it, and prove its worth and then others will follow.  Otherwise, it's just empty theory. 

There are numerous groups doing so, the issue is that a world governed by 'devout money-worshippers' limits our abilities to create these model cities. There is Atlas Initiative in Las Vegas, and Cluster in Arkansas, and I personally have drawn up schematics on possible city designs. The biggest issue is that we need land first, as then we can research the foundation, wind potential, solar arrays, water potentials, etc, so that the city system is an emergent, dynamic system within that region. To do any of this, we need millions of dollars at the least as no city is cheap to build, especially a cybernetic, automated highly efficient city system. The only way it'll ever happen is if hundreds of millions of people understand the direction and are willing to contribute their time to it. Jacque Fresco has acquired funding for a major motion picture of a RBE society, and his goal is to use the money made from the film to build the first city.

And regarding the 'empty theory' terminology, please refrain from such ad hominem as its not a theory at all. The RBE concept is merely a compilled assessment of all the most current scientific data available. The only goal should be updating society to current scientific understandings, of which require sustainable, efficient maintainence of our resources, otherwise we are recreating Easter Island on a global scale.

One has to realize the ecology of human existence and the cyclical nature of all things in this universe to understand that no governmental system, no economic system, no monetary system, no system of any sort will stand in perpetuity.  They undergo life cycles just as the organisms that compromise them do, on micro, meso, and macro level.  There are ways to interrupt some of these cycles but they get into the forbidden topics zone on CM.com.

Thats the beauty of the Resource Based economic model; is that it inherently allows for emergence, and change, as our understandings will continually change. Monetary economic structures create established institutions along with established modes of thought, that dont allow for any opposition to their power (oil conglomerate purchasing car battery patents and mothballing them). The scientific method of inquiry allows for falsifiability. Decisions are arrived to rather than made; the evidence, attained by means of thorough research, testing, and analysis, is far more favorable to our current outdated methods of monetary movement, and voting on how to move that money around.

ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 4 2009
Posts: 2220
zeitgeist fever
heffe wrote:

As far as the implicit, for one, your initial highly emotional post is an indication of how humans, more than the tools they use (such as money) are the problem.  If one who is advocating change in a system (and by the very nature of proposing a change in a system that is faulty, would hopefully hold to higher standards of thought and reasoning removing unnecessary emotion from the equation) cannot control their emotions, it is little wonder that we have conflict in this world.  That's not an accusation, simply an observation.  Changing a system starts with changing one's own actions and exerting a positive influence upon a system starts with exerting positive control over one's own actions.   

Humans having irrationality through emotion will always exist.  Your focus is still on humans.  Money is thought to be benelovent and simply a tool, My point is that this money as a tool, interacts with the biological needs of humans, as well as the emotional aspects, and even hinders objective thought, in such a way that it needs to be outgrown or it destroys our lives. The rules required for the game of monetary economics, magnify irrationality of greed, competition, dominance, status, and most everything that is negative about our society today. 

Most would say that contemporary society is a reflection of human nature, but its really the opposite. The reason so many humans have mental issues like high anxiety is due to our system forcing us to act against traits that were original to our development. The first 500,000 years of human society have been egalitarian, hunter gatherer societies, of which require collaboration, unity, and little division between resource access. This 'civilized' society of today goes entirely against that, creating division through wealth, thus acts against what we inherently call for, which is empathy, unity, respect, love for each other and the planet.  

 

As far as the explicit, you say there is no nature without the context of environment.  I would counter that there is a given nature that is genetically determined within a range.  Where, within that genetically given range, an individual or organism falls, is dependent upon environmental influences affecting genetic expression. 

I would invite you to earn a BA in Psychology, while working towards a MA in Psychology, study all of the information provided, and then make statements like that. The only way 'human nature' has any real meaning is in universal needs. If those needs are met, a certain set of traits appear, and if those needs are not met, a different set of traits appear.  Deny any of us food for a week and Im sure we'd become highly irrational and desperate for food, perhaps acting violently.

If you take baby with perfect eyesight, and deprive them of light for a few months, they will be forever blind as the cells required for vision die off.  Its referred to as 'neuronal pruning' and is the manner in which environment shapes brain matter, even down to the DNA level. Now take that example with social contexts; if a person grows up in a society where competition is valued, where dominance over others promotes status and wealth, that persons' brain is physically shaped by the environmental stimulus, creating a highly competitive, dominance seeking individual.( Sound like most people today?)

Lastly, to further discredit the backwards assumptions of the majority of people regarding human nature, take any behavior in which you deem as 'genetically programmed' and I can show you how environment rules over that instinctual tendency. Reproduction? How about a Buddhist Monk or devout Protestant Nun? Self-Preservation? How about suicide? Or even better, Kamakazee pilots? Able to rule out their biological tendencies of staying alive, simply for their beliefs and values.

There are other aspects of your post I take issue with and some I agree with but many of these issues have been debated here previously ad nauseum and I'm just not into taking the time to revisit them.  I'll just say that if you or anyone else is going to wander down one of those paths, the zeitgeist path, my response would be create a test model, run it, and prove its worth and then others will follow.  Otherwise, it's just empty theory. 

There are numerous groups doing so, the issue is that a world governed by 'devout money-worshippers' limits our abilities to create these model cities. There is Atlas Initiative in Las Vegas, and Cluster in Arkansas, and I personally have drawn up schematics on possible city designs. The biggest issue is that we need land first, as then we can research the foundation, wind potential, solar arrays, water potentials, etc, so that the city system is an emergent, dynamic system within that region. To do any of this, we need millions of dollars at the least as no city is cheap to build, especially a cybernetic, automated highly efficient city system. The only way it'll ever happen is if hundreds of millions of people understand the direction and are willing to contribute their time to it. Jacque Fresco has acquired funding for a major motion picture of a RBE society, and his goal is to use the money made from the film to build the first city.

And regarding the 'empty theory' terminology, please refrain from such ad hominem as its not a theory at all. The RBE concept is merely a compilled assessment of all the most current scientific data available. The only goal should be updating society to current scientific understandings, of which require sustainable, efficient maintainence of our resources, otherwise we are recreating Easter Island on a global scale.

One has to realize the ecology of human existence and the cyclical nature of all things in this universe to understand that no governmental system, no economic system, no monetary system, no system of any sort will stand in perpetuity.  They undergo life cycles just as the organisms that compromise them do, on micro, meso, and macro level.  There are ways to interrupt some of these cycles but they get into the forbidden topics zone on CM.com.

Thats the beauty of the Resource Based economic model; is that it inherently allows for emergence, and change, as our understandings will continually change. Monetary economic structures create established institutions along with established modes of thought, that dont allow for any opposition to their power (oil conglomerate purchasing car battery patents and mothballing them). The scientific method of inquiry allows for falsifiability. Decisions are arrived to rather than made; the evidence, attained by means of thorough research, testing, and analysis, is far more favorable to our current outdated methods of monetary movement, and voting on how to move that money around.

Does zeitgeist obsession alter DNA?;-)  There's no ICD-9 code for it but I'll call up some people and see if we can put it in for the ICD-10s.

I yield to the unwinnable ... zeitgeist fever.

I do have to make one comment though about this statement though.

"I would invite you to earn a BA in Psychology, while working towards a MA in Psychology, study all of the information provided, and then make statements like that."

Finish up your MA and get a PhD and do post-graduate work in the biophysical sciences and then get back to me.  I only studied molecular and medical genetics with one of the premier genetics researchers in the world from Cold Spring Harbor Laboratories, was a medical school researcher, clinically studied and worked with cases for 32 years that you maybe haven't even studied theoretically, obtained post-graduate degrees, published in the mind-body field, and taught at both the undergraduate and post-graduate level but what do I know.  I stand by the statements I made, including the following: "... there is a given nature that is genetically determined within a range.  Where, within that genetically given range, an individual or organism falls, is dependent upon environmental influences affecting genetic expression."

 

I would encourage you to prove your contention by your actions (and by the actions of the other zeitgeist believers) and by the results and stop making excuses about the absence of money.  Oops, did I say money?  You want money?  Millions of dollars of money?  Wait a minute!  I thought you wanted to get rid of money!  But now you want it?  Hmm ... I think there's an ICD-9 code for that. 

 

    

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heffe
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
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Posts: 95
Hilarious response ao
ao wrote:

alter DNA?;-)  There's no ICD-9 code for it but I'll call up some people and see if we can put it in for the ICD-10s.

I yield to the unwinnable ... zeitgeist fever.

Finish up your MA and get a PhD and do post-graduate work in the biophysical sciences and then get back to me.  I only studied molecular and medical genetics with ."

 I would encourage you to prove your contention by your actions (and by the actions of the other zeitgeist believers) and by the results and stop making excuses about the absence of money.  Oops, did I say money?  You want money?  Millions of dollars of money?  Wait a minute!  I thought you wanted to get rid of money!  But now you want it?  Hmm ... I think there's an ICD-9 code for that.

It appears you are is resorting to highly emotional, irrational disposition. First off is the ad hominem/straw man label of 'zeitgeist fever'. This is a tactic used by individuals to dismay veiws that oppose their own. It is a classic symptom of fear, and likely you have attachements to your prior beliefs and are unwilling to admit fault in cognition. similar to the church labeling people as heretics, or how anyone against capitalism must be communist. It is a pathetic attempt to apply a label to the cause as a means of discrediting, and only further illuminates your highly irrational, unobjective view. I invite you to reassess your views, considering alternatives and aiming for objectivity. Otherwise it was hilarious to see such a 'successful person' resorting to such childlike behavior. Im 24 and Im looking at a PhD in wonderment at how he can be so childish....

Now comes up your 'accomplishements', sad to see how much you have studied, yet have learned next to nothing regarding critical, objective thinking. Perhaps your experiences have lead you to except assumptions as if they were true, perhaps the professors you engaged with or even you parents did not foster thinking that sought alternative, more favorable conditions. All I am doing is acknowledging the faults of our current system, and seeking alternatives through investigation, research and analysis. If thats too much for you to handle I am sorry, your attachements to prior beliefs is a pathetic disposition to hold as your education should have reduced those attachments.

Lastly, another highly emotional, irrational response to my assessment of model city development. Why are you acting so irrational? How else is a model city going to be developed other than attaining the resources to build the city (of which are owned by private money holders)?  Is it magically going to appear through desire? No we have attain the land, research every square inch, design emergent systems in which to lay foundations for, then purchase the resources to do so, and possibly even seek out groups like Contour Crafting for construction. It is underway, and is a process that spans years. Regardless, its hilarious that such an educated person can't see how maintainence of dynamic equilibirum with finite resources is an 'empty theory'. The RBE model simply adheres to the logic that you cannot consume more than there is.

Good day 

 

ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
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Posts: 2220
point made, thank you
heffe wrote:
ao wrote:

alter DNA?;-)  There's no ICD-9 code for it but I'll call up some people and see if we can put it in for the ICD-10s.

I yield to the unwinnable ... zeitgeist fever.

Finish up your MA and get a PhD and do post-graduate work in the biophysical sciences and then get back to me.  I only studied molecular and medical genetics with ."

 I would encourage you to prove your contention by your actions (and by the actions of the other zeitgeist believers) and by the results and stop making excuses about the absence of money.  Oops, did I say money?  You want money?  Millions of dollars of money?  Wait a minute!  I thought you wanted to get rid of money!  But now you want it?  Hmm ... I think there's an ICD-9 code for that.

It appears you are is resorting to highly emotional, irrational disposition. First off is the ad hominem/straw man label of 'zeitgeist fever'. This is a tactic used by individuals to dismay veiws that oppose their own. It is a classic symptom of fear, and likely you have attachements to your prior beliefs and are unwilling to admit fault in cognition. similar to the church labeling people as heretics, or how anyone against capitalism must be communist. It is a pathetic attempt to apply a label to the cause as a means of discrediting, and only further illuminates your highly irrational, unobjective view. I invite you to reassess your views, considering alternatives and aiming for objectivity. Otherwise it was hilarious to see such a 'successful person' resorting to such childlike behavior. Im 24 and Im looking at a PhD in wonderment at how he can be so childish....

Now comes up your 'accomplishements', sad to see how much you have studied, yet have learned next to nothing regarding critical, objective thinking. Perhaps your experiences have lead you to except assumptions as if they were true, perhaps the professors you engaged with or even you parents did not foster thinking that sought alternative, more favorable conditions. All I am doing is acknowledging the faults of our current system, and seeking alternatives through investigation, research and analysis. If thats too much for you to handle I am sorry, your attachements to prior beliefs is a pathetic disposition to hold as your education should have reduced those attachments.

Lastly, another highly emotional, irrational response to my assessment of model city development. Why are you acting so irrational? How else is a model city going to be developed other than attaining the resources to build the city (of which are owned by private money holders)?  Is it magically going to appear through desire? No we have attain the land, research every square inch, design emergent systems in which to lay foundations for, then purchase the resources to do so, and possibly even seek out groups like Contour Crafting for construction. It is underway, and is a process that spans years. Regardless, its hilarious that such an educated person can't see how maintainence of dynamic equilibirum with finite resources is an 'empty theory'. The RBE model simply adheres to the logic that you cannot consume more than there is.

Good day 

I'm glad that I gave you a little amusement.  When times are tough, humor helps one overcome adversity and the disappointment that your future is not what you hoped it would be.  I know it's tough to handle when you're struggling but you'll get beyond it, trust me.  It all comes with the maturation, wisdom, and experience gained over the years.  And while labelling something or someone emotional and irrational does not make it so, if it gives you comfort, who am I to deny you. 

It's interesting how with just a little nudging, you so readily resorted to the ad hominem statements you supposedly condemn.  That, my young friend, is why technology will never solve problems that have their origin in human nature.  You just made my point.  Thank you.

 

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SagerXX
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Heft

My problem w/Zeitgeist is that it pursues top-down solutions. IMO the future will lie with those that are able to sustain themselves (and those in the immediate propinquity) where they are, with more or less what is at hand. Granular, not macro. Individual and small-group, not institutional. Tech-inclusive, but not tech-reliant. While I believe the future could be grand, I suspect it will not be grandiose. We must of course-- all of us -- pursue solutions that move us enough that we act rather than merely jawbone the issues. Good luck to us all. Viva -- Sager

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SagerXX
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Oops
SagerXX wrote:

My problem w/Zeitgeist is that it pursues top-down solutions. IMO the future will lie with those that are able to sustain themselves (and those in the immediate propinquity) where they are, with more or less what is at hand. Granular, not macro. Individual and small-group, not institutional. Tech-inclusive, but not tech-reliant. While I believe the future could be grand, I suspect it will not be grandiose. We must of course-- all of us -- pursue solutions that move us enough that we act rather than merely jawbone the issues. Good luck to us all. Viva -- Sager

Title of previous post should have been "Heffe" -- danged autocorrect.

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heffe
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Sager you have missed many points Ive Made
SagerXX wrote:
SagerXX wrote:

My problem w/Zeitgeist is that it pursues top-down solutions. IMO the future will lie with those that are able to sustain themselves (and those in the immediate propinquity) where they are, with more or less what is at hand. Granular, not macro. Individual and small-group, not institutional. Tech-inclusive, but not tech-reliant. While I believe the future could be grand, I suspect it will not be grandiose. We must of course-- all of us -- pursue solutions that move us enough that we act rather than merely jawbone the issues. Good luck to us all. Viva -- Sager

Title of previous post should have been "Heffe" -- danged autocorrect.

 

Are my posts too long for you to read? Ive stated many times the the aim of a Resource Based economic model is a bottom up, community based decision making process, in which decisions are arrived to through research and investigation of scientific inquiry.

For redundancy and efficiency sake, every community should be able to produce there own energy, water and food, and if possible, other resources it needs. Isn't this a major belief among the CM crowd? Local enterprise?

Really the RBE concept takes so much to understand that very few are willing to put the time into it, as you will need various knowledge of psychology, anthropology, sociology, engineering, physics, chemistry, and economics to name a few. 

And no matter how much you'd like to think of yourself as 'not dependent on technology', we are human beings, and technology is the one of the few things that seperate us from animals. Even if your 'self dependent' your going to require numerous amounts of technology to do so. The RBE concept only further applies technology so that every human need is met, rather than just a few selfish individuals. this is true self interest at its core.

And your terminology of grandoise is a reflection of lack of information, I'd invite you to learn more about this direction, as well as other alternatives of interest, such as alternative currency systems of digitial energy accounting units with open source data.

@ ao,  Its alright, I'd probably be the same if I'd supported such a failing system for all my life. The best thing to do is admit your faults and strive towards something better, especially if you have kids/grandkids. I'd feel like such a failure if I had grandchildren, having supported such a wasteful, destructive, completely unnecessary system all my life. I'd feel like a complete jackass being anyone of the older generations for supporting this system. Oh well, the positive move would be to further educate yourself and strive for human progression that benefits us all.

take care

 

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Dogs_In_A_Pile
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heffe wrote: Really the
heffe wrote:

Really the RBE concept takes so much to understand that very few are willing to put the time into it, as you will need various knowledge of psychology, anthropology, sociology, engineering, physics, chemistry, and economics to name a few. 

Fairy dust, wishful thinking and hopium, to name a few more.

 

Build and prove a working model, first.  (RBE and ZGM supporters have yet to adequately explain how the demand signal is going to be reduced first.)

Then, sell.  (In the figurative sense of course)

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ao
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advanced case of zeitgeist fever
heffe wrote:

@ ao,  Its alright, I'd probably be the same if I'd supported such a failing system for all my life. The best thing to do is admit your faults and strive towards something better, especially if you have kids/grandkids. I'd feel like such a failure if I had grandchildren, having supported such a wasteful, destructive, completely unnecessary system all my life. I'd feel like a complete jackass being anyone of the older generations for supporting this system. Oh well, the positive move would be to further educate yourself and strive for human progression that benefits us all.

heffe,

I'll struggle along with all my shortcomings and regrets, crying and bemoaning my fate on a daily basis because I flunked out of the Sun Myung Moon School of Zeitgeist/RBE Cult  Indoctrination, Rhetoric, Delusion, and Overinflated Self-Importance.  Oh woe is me!

On a more serious note, I hope life is kinder to you in the future and good luck ... you'll surely need it. 

P.S. Say hello to jneo for me.

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heffe
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Non sequitors and straw man attacks

Fairy dust, wishful thinking and hopium, to name a few more.

 This is known as a straw man attack, similar to ad hominem. It is an attempt to dismay our cause with terminology that in no way analyzes the methodologies of supply and demand equilibrium within a RBE concept. It is usually a sign of fear and/or attachements to one's prior beliefs, as those beliefs have become part of your identity, therefore anything countering those beliefs is attacking you as a person. The best thing to do is not hold attachements to your beliefs, and allow the only constant, change, to adjust your understandings according to the evidence at hand.

Build and prove a working model, first.  (RBE and ZGM supporters have yet to adequately explain how the demand signal is going to be reduced first.)

Then, sell.  (In the figurative sense of course)

Here we have whats known as a 'non-sequitor' in the criticisms of the model city development. A non sequitor literally means 'doesn't follow' and is a lack in logical reasoning. Here's why;

TZM says: "We have possible, alternative economic models that wouldn't require monetary exchange."

Opponents reply : "So why don't you build us a city as an example to prove your theory?"

TZM responds: "Well, currently the resources we would need to construct a city are owned by private money investors that aren't willing to donate to our cause, so a large amount of money would be required to purchase those resources from those companies unwilling to donate."

Opponents scream: "OH I though you were against MONEY!!! More hopium then huh? You can't get rid of money by using money!!"

Please inform me as to other means of producing a RBE model city without the land, or the materials to build. And as stated before, Atlas Initiative is a group in Las Vegas, currently seeking grants with numerous locations picked, and Cluster is another group in Arkansas that is working with Open Source Ecology members. A model city has been in development for a while now and will take much longer, as its something that cannot be rushed into just to prove a point. A RBE is nothing more than the idea that science should be the forefront of making decisions, and that resources are the very basis of all economic decisions.

@ ao, once again I speak but you dont hear. The RBE concept is not the only alternative I seek. As mentioned, currency in the form of energy accounting is a very feasible option in my opinion, as are various steady state and open source economic models on the internet. The Zeitgeist Movement is great as it combines all the efforts of sustainability initiatives, human rights groups, and other groups seeking a better world, into one framework.

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A Place to try RBE Without Annoying Others Who Don't Agree

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sniff, sniff

Really the RBE concept takes so much to understand that very few are willing to put the time into it, as you will need various knowledge of psychology, anthropology, sociology, engineering, physics, chemistry, and economics to name a few.
 

*sniff, sniff*

I smell academic hubris.

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Yawn....
heffe wrote:

Please inform me as to other means of producing a RBE model city without the land, or the materials to build. And as stated before, Atlas Initiative is a group in Las Vegas, currently seeking grants with numerous locations picked, and Cluster is another group in Arkansas that is working with Open Source Ecology members. A model city has been in development for a while now and will take much longer, as its something that cannot be rushed into just to prove a point. A RBE is nothing more than the idea that science should be the forefront of making decisions, and that resources are the very basis of all economic decisions.

@ ao, once again I speak but you dont hear. The RBE concept is not the only alternative I seek. As mentioned, currency in the form of energy accounting is a very feasible option in my opinion, as are various steady state and open source economic models on the internet. The Zeitgeist Movement is great as it combines all the efforts of sustainability initiatives, human rights groups, and other groups seeking a better world, into one framework.

.....which is a bit sanguine without first addressing HOW THE DEMAND SIGNAL IS GOING TO BE REDUCED GOING INTO A FUNCTIONING RBE SOCIETY?

Clear enough question retread?

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Vanityfox451
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Where There Is A Need ...

Heffe,

Don't be dissillusioned with a few of the crew at cm.com that have taken to bate, because it is more likely a demographic issue with this particular audience that is raising your hackles and infuriating you than anything other. From what I gather, the authors who prescribe your ideals and prognostication as hokem are more ordinarily wealthy enough to have the choice to hunker down and away from much of the sh*tstorm than most every other, what with land ownership and a stockpile of gold to soften the shattering of the American fiat currency. In other words, they have excess resource, and therefore accumulative subsidy.

Truthfully, much of what you've written has already been achieved many times over. Israel in its earliest invention was built on land models of equality, where each member, whether a farm labourer or a doctor, all gained the same share of resource.

The Transition Town Movement appears to be growing expansively with wonderful ideas in powering down as communities, modelling back to an infastructure on similar lines to the towns and villages of the past that were capable of supporting themselves as working independent cells, and without need for much in the way of outside input.

Time will tell as to the advancement of civilisation, or the backward step into a brand-new dark age.

I rather like the comfortable living standards that I have about me. I'd much prefer to keep every one of them working for the rest of my life. I like soap, and I love hot water straight out of the tap. I love the convenience of a sunday dinner that has travelled three thousand miles to my plate, the switch for instant light, and the switch for instant heat. My car, my off the peg clothes, my prescription this or that - I live like a king compared even to people from just 50 years ago who lived where my home is situated today.

There are quite a number of fascinating scientific breakthroughs just out on the horizon that many right now believe will never happen, in the way that many fifty years ago would consider it impossible that we have such high living standards today in the western world.

Now, I'm open to persuasion, but I'm not open to a bandwagon of motive-driven idealists without a pot to p*ss in, with organisations that influence them by holding agenda. There again, I'm pretty p*ssed that the self policing motive of this present capitalised community have such an agenda to infiltrate your models and crush them with the self same guise by effect.

You can't build something without first having an audience. The information has to go out there for review. Every idea is under review, with many a reviewer without a clue about what facts abound with the subject matter, and simply the driven emotion of group consensus that divides and conqeurs - or errects as monument any and all ideas in the imagining - that over time will either collapse under its own weight as a concept, or thrive depending on the selfish interests of the individuals that are a part of it.

I like the concept of the Venus project, and am fascinated too with Peter Joseph' idealism. Time will tell, if among all the vast complexities of human development and society, as to whether any of the models the Zetgeist movement have offered to the plate will become a common-place sight in the future : -

Every concept whether muddled or otherwise that became the social models that we live in today began from ideas. Many here are heavily concerned over what has come about from the post war idealism of the American Dream. You can't blame them if you find them to be a tad hostile or beligerent, or just down right hostile in the extreme to yet another set of concepts that are built upon the crumbled foundations of collapsed social models of the past.

This then, is all part of the territory my friend. So, take your lumps with everybody else, grab a seat on the roller-coaster with a ring-side view of the next commensing set of fireworks, and relax and enjoy the show. It's just a ride : -

Paul

Every kind of ignorance in the world all results from not realizing that our perceptions are gambles. We believe what we see and then we believe our interpretation of it, we don't even know we are making an interpretation most of the time. We think this is reality. – Robert Anton Wilson

Dogs_In_A_Pile's picture
Dogs_In_A_Pile
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Offline)
Joined: Jan 4 2009
Posts: 2606
Wouldn't work in krabi krabong.....
Johnny Oxygen wrote:

Really the RBE concept takes so much to understand that very few are willing to put the time into it, as you will need various knowledge of psychology, anthropology, sociology, engineering, physics, chemistry, and economics to name a few.
 

*sniff, sniff*

I smell academic hubris.

JOX -

Sort of like this?

"It is the mark of the mind untrained to take its own processes as valid for all men, and its own judgments for absolute truth."  Aleister Crowley

The sword that cuts both ways - just another tool - only dangerous when wielded by the hands of those that fail to recognize two sharp edges.

SagerXX's picture
SagerXX
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 11 2009
Posts: 2238
This
heffe wrote:

Really the RBE concept takes so much to understand that very few are willing to put the time into it, as you will need various knowledge of psychology, anthropology, sociology, engineering, physics, chemistry, and economics to name a few.

Exactly. My problem w/Zeitgeist is the whole top-down thing. So where does my local grass-roots org get experts in the subjects listed above, which list is evidently not exhaustive? Seems to me we end up with a centralized org that sifts through the issues we are facing and thence we proceed to prescription vis-a-vis the solutions this central org has arrived at. Top-down. I'm more interested in solutions that can be thunk up and implemented by your average sample of average folks, said sample size to number between 50 and 200. Granular. Local solutions for the uniquely local expression of the macro predicament in which we are ensconced. (e.g. In my area, we have less worrying to do about water supply, but groups in AZ or SoCal will spend a lot of time addressing same. Whereas, in my area how to heat our homes for 6+ months outta the year is of paramount importance.). And two more things: you seemed to miss it last time, so I'll repeat: we all must pursue the solution-path that seems best to us. So I am not trying to change your mind here. I'm just trying to get you to consider the possibility that others here have their solutions pretty well figured out and those solutions differ from yours. Second: your attacks on those older than you as too inured to the System or unable to Think Outside the Box etc etc do not, IMO, advance your cause. FWIW, it's nearly a given that any stalwart of this community is so far outside the box that the box has been flattened, taken to the recycling center, and reborn five times over to come back to us containing Berkey water filters, hand-cranked flashlights, copies of Dr. Chris' book, bulk spices for long-term food storage and gizmos to complete a home biodiesel (or home beer brewing?) setup. Good luck to us all. Viva -- Sager

heffe's picture
heffe
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 26 2009
Posts: 95
Much appreciated Vanity Fox, Dogs, and ao

Thank you vanity fox for the thoughtful post, it was refreshing to see a well articulated, analytical post to help me understand myself and the others here at CM.

I get it. No one likes to have their 'precious beliefs' countered by a kid half their age. Under no circumstance, if ego or attachements are present is it not degrading to admit you're wrong and move towards more truthful views. I am trying to hold no attachments to any belief system, and merely seek out information, evidence, and research every aspect possible, questioning everything.

Thanks ao, and dogs in a pile for showing me the true route towards a fulfilled life. That would be

-Completely disregard any opposing views regardless of their intent or evidence.

-Submit to complete utter selfishness, hoard guns, gold and food inside my little cave and wait for my peers, family and the rest of the world to starve to death. (forgetting that there's more people than bullets, and the more people I kill defending my cave the more likely they will flay me once Im out of ammo)

-Never try anything that might just better society, like seeking out alternatives and learning as much as possible. Its obvious from your posts that ignorance is bliss. Also never try to help others learn more, thats also too generous, not selfish enough.

Awesome lesson ya old folk! Thanks so much and have a great few years of your miserable life!

heffe's picture
heffe
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 26 2009
Posts: 95
Sager you have not read any of my posts have you?

Sager you seem to keep referring to an RBE as top-down, though Ive stated many times already that this is the opposite of a RBE approach.

 

Why can't you read my posts and get this through your military trained dome?

 

Ive stated over four times now that the RBE approach focuses on bottom up, community based approach with emphasis on the scientific method of inquiry as the means of investigation.  Please read my posts thoroughly before posting these uninformed views you have.

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ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 4 2009
Posts: 2220
troll feeding terminated
heffe wrote:

Thank you vanity fox for the thoughtful post, it was refreshing to see a well articulated, analytical post to help me understand myself and the others here at CM.

I get it. No one likes to have their 'precious beliefs' countered by a kid half their age. Under no circumstance, if ego or attachements are present is it not degrading to admit you're wrong and move towards more truthful views. I am trying to hold no attachments to any belief system, and merely seek out information, evidence, and research every aspect possible, questioning everything.

Thanks ao, and dogs in a pile for showing me the true route towards a fulfilled life. That would be

-Completely disregard any opposing views regardless of their intent or evidence.

-Submit to complete utter selfishness, hoard guns, gold and food inside my little cave and wait for my peers, family and the rest of the world to starve to death. (forgetting that there's more people than bullets, and the more people I kill defending my cave the more likely they will flay me once Im out of ammo)

-Never try anything that might just better society, like seeking out alternatives and learning as much as possible. Its obvious from your posts that ignorance is bliss. Also never try to help others learn more, thats also too generous, not selfish enough.

Awesome lesson ya old folk! Thanks so much and have a great few years of your miserable life!

heffe,

You are so offbase, your remarks aren't even worthy of a reply.  They speak for themselves ... and not very well.  I violated a cardinal rule and fed a troll.  Bad me.

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Wendy S. Delmater
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 13 2009
Posts: 1988
Sager...military?

Heffe thinks Sager is...military?  When I read that I laughed so hard I almost cried.

Sager...Why can't you read my posts and get this through your military trained dome?

That's nearly as funny as his stated belief that DIP and ao are "uniformed."

*gentlest of voices* Dear Heffe, you're new here and are not aware of our community having MANY viewpoints. It's one of our strengths: here, for the most part, we think that opposing views might have insights, and we listen respectfully. Our members are young and old, rich and poor, urbanite and rural, American and non-American, different races and more. We have Marxists, ultra-conservatives, and absolutely every viewpoint in-between. Just because some of us disagree with each other does not mean that we are "uniformed." But even if we were you are not going to win any converts to your way of thinking with sacrasm,  name calling and (dare I say it) mocking those with more experience--experience on this site, in life, and in prepping--even if that experience has led them to conclusions you disagree with.

Damnthematrix's picture
Damnthematrix
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 10 2008
Posts: 3998
What's age got to do with it?
heffe wrote:

I get it. No one likes to have their 'precious beliefs' countered by a kid half their age.

Rubbish......  my son, who is around one third my age and has two science degrees pulls me up all the time.  He will grow into a wise old knowledgeable man one day.  I hope.

Mike

SagerXX's picture
SagerXX
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 11 2009
Posts: 2238
That is pretty choice...
safewrite wrote:

Heffe thinks Sager is...military?  When I read that I laughed so hard I almost cried.

Sager...Why can't you read my posts and get this through your military trained dome?

At the age when most US military volunteers are doing night marches in the rain carrying 80-pound packs and learning weapons & tactics in boot camp, I was backpacking through SE Asia and worrying about whether security would toss me out on my ear if I stage-dived into the mosh pit at the Red Hot Chili Peppers show ("Mother's Milk" tour, NYC). Thanks for the chuckle. And for the record, IMO some of the sharpest/most useful members of this community have military-trained domes.

Johnny Oxygen's picture
Johnny Oxygen
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 9 2009
Posts: 1443
The ol' pot and kettle

I get it. No one likes to have their 'precious beliefs' countered by a kid half their age.

Vanityfox451's picture
Vanityfox451
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 28 2008
Posts: 1636
Rudyard ...

Heffe,

Human nature is built with the requisite that there is great need for acceptance of opinion by ones peers. This is a key, and strikingly so. It is part of this that most gain a sense of purpose and belonging. The lesson then is to learn reliance upon your own self worth, instincts, personal knowledge and growth, and act upon these with the understanding that even those with great maturity are not necessarily blessed every time with a lifetimes worth of factual comprehension to their actions, often driven by the apparent solid foundations in the appearance of their own experiences, yet still more often consent to the opinions of the loudest voice that is typically less capable than themselves to act upon fact, and more surely carried on waves of opinion driven belief.

In other words, life experience is something that teaches you that to drive ahead with an ideal and for it to work, the lesson is to learn how to draw a group of people together that can make what some people could well assume impossible, into the possible, with driven commitment and dedication.

The young and the bold are not always lost for the brilliance of a great idea, but driven by the need for acceptance, often moved to give up their dreams with the desperate need for them to please, or sadly to argue then dissolve their dreams by use of the tools and rules of the game that was started by previous generations.

I give you If by Rudyard Kipling, and hope that these powerful words will help you find your own answers in gaining your sense of purpose : -

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream---and not make dreams your master;
If you can think---and not make thoughts your aim,
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same:.
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build'em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings,
And never breathe a word about your loss:
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings---nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much:
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And---which is more---you'll be a Man, my son!

Paul

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heffe
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 26 2009
Posts: 95
Thanks again Paul

I appreciate the words, and yes a need of human beings is acceptance among their peers, this is a universal trait among humans I view as 'human nature'.  It is another reason why we can view contemporary society as opposing our needs as humans. With division created through status and wealth, we have fewer individuals that are like ourselves, therefore have less trust and empathy for others.

Humans have known for millennia that division creates strife, so I will do what I can to promote alternatives which seek true equality among humans.

And in reference to acceptance, I hope you don't intrepret my posts here as longing for acceptance from these folks. It is amusement, as well as, self development, as I love hearing well articulated views that break down potential faults in my views, leading me to more truthful dispositions. Unfortunately, you are the only one here presenting well articulated posts and you aren't even disagreeing with me. I enjoy having thought provoking discussions with those who disagree, however, after receiving so many uncritical, generalizations that reflect little, if any, research into the subject matter at hand I become fustrated. Yes it is my youth, but I am continually striving to better my approach.

Take care 

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