Chris sits down with author, rapper and influencer Zuby to discuss everything from COVID lockdowns to vanishing human rights occurring across the globe. You won’t want to miss this thoughtful discussion with one of the world’s great up and coming thinkers and influencers. A true meeting of the minds!
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Chris Martenson [00:00:00] Hello, I'm Dr. Chris Martenson, I am extremely excited about
today's guest as he is one of the most on point. Truth tellers, keen observers and voices of
reason that I've had the pleasure of following on social media. Now we get to hear from
him directly. His name is Zuby. He's an independent rapper, author, podcast host, public
speaker, creative entrepreneur with over one million followers on social media. Interesting
background. He was born in England, raised in Saudi Arabia and is a graduate of Oxford
University. He sold over 30,000 albums, independently performed in eight countries, has
gained 10 million plus online video views. And perhaps most interestingly, his podcast
Real Talk with Zuby has surpassed two million downloads reach his thousands of global
listeners every week. Subbies appeared on the Joe Rogan Experience, BBC, Fox News,
Sky News can't own show. Many, many others. Zuby, welcome to the program.
Zuby [00:00:56] How's it going, Chris? Good to see you.
Chris Martenson [00:00:58] Hey, thanks. It's really good to have you on the program.
Seriously, very excited by this. So, you just recently competed, completed a U.S. tour. You
went around. I'm just intrigued. What? What did you take away from that? What did what
surprised you in that tour?
Zuby [00:01:14] Wow, that's a that's a big question. I would say one of the biggest things
that surprised me was just how much the sheer amount of love, the sheer amount of love
out there. Last time I was in the USA was in 2019, and I had built up quite a profile by that
point. But in the two years between then and now, I've seen numbers go up online. I've
seen follower counts increase in view, numbers increase and all of that. But it's another
thing to be out and about in the real world, in different cities and in different countries, and
to constantly have people recognizing me and stopping me coming to meet ups. Just I met
so many amazing people, hundreds and hundreds, really thousands, thousands of
amazing people. And just to know that I've had some positive impact and influence and
been able to be a motivation and an inspiration to so many people has truly been a
blessing. And being out there in person really made me realize just how far that's come.
Chris Martenson [00:02:19] It's amazing. We're going to be showing some pictures here
that of your you with your fans out there, and I'll tell you my takeaway from these pictures.
I don't see a lot of fear. People look healthy and attractive and you know you're all
clustered together. I've seen masks or anything like that was doesn't really look like you
were COVID impacted too much.
Zuby [00:02:40] Not, not at all. I don't think, I don't think a single person. I think I did about
10 meet ups in all the different cities, and I don't think a single person became not a single
person came in at Baskin-Robbins and nobody had one because someone probably had
one in their pocket. But certainly, with the meet ups, no, no, no. Nobody had them.
Chris Martenson [00:03:00] Did you notice any difference? Sort of. I mean, you went to a
lot of states, red states, blue states, if I could classify them that way, did you have a sense
of of a difference in that particular dynamic or that
Zuby [00:03:11] gigantic difference, gigantic difference? I mean, the rules and their
restrictions and the mandates and stuff like that differ from city to city and state to state,
obviously country to country. But in the U.S., having all the 50 different states, it makes a
huge difference. And over the course of my travels, I mean, I went to Texas, Florida,
Tennessee, Nevada, California, Hawaii, New York, Maryland, North Carolina, and who am
I missing Maine as well? And the differences between some of them were pretty, pretty
extreme, going from somewhere like Dallas, Texas to Los Angeles, California, or going
from Maryland to Orlando or Miami. Really different, really different types of people, very
different responses, different rules and restrictions and laws. And it was very different,
very, very different atmosphere, very, very different energy. One was very much one of
fear and paranoia and suspicion across large swathes of the population. The other was
like living in twenty eighteen or 2019, just people going about their daily lives being normal.
Not very much. Very few signs of anything in particular going on. So that's how it's been.
I've actually traveled to seven different countries over the past 18 months or so as well,
and I've noticed that same pattern. Also, it varies depending on what time that you're going
there. Some places have gotten tighter and more restrictive. Some places have opened up
more. But certainly, in the U.S., the variation across the country is huge, even within the
same state. I mean, if you're in Los Angeles County and then you go to Orange County,
you're going to see night and day difference. And if you're in Portland, Maine versus rural
Maine, you're going to see a huge difference. So, it's pretty bizarre and it's pretty bizarre,
especially coming in as an outsider. But I think something like that is pretty weird to
Americans as well.
Chris Martenson [00:05:17] I think that's a fabulous opportunity to come in as a Martian.
as it were to just, you know, feel the zeitgeist and and see those differences? Because to
me, I mean, I want to get into your role as a health expert and fitness coach and all of that.
But it seems to me that it should be obvious by now that if you live with fear and paranoia
and anxiety just as as a daily sort of consumption pattern, the health impacts on that those
have to be pretty profound over time. That chronic sort of wasting of of all that energy on
stuff that you can't do anything about. I mean, this fear that people are carrying, it's around
an invisible enemy that they have no clue about. They often they have a very, very
outsized sense of what the actual risks are. And so, I've talked with people, Zuby, who are
young and healthy, who are almost convinced that if they get COVID, it's a death
sentence. And that mismatch between the actual risk they face and the one that they've
bought into feels unhealthy to me. Did you notice that as a.
Zuby [00:06:18] Just Abs-, absolutely it's it's, you know, in trying to supposedly stop one
illness, they've created a host of other illnesses and largely illness of the mind. Some
people have completely lost their minds. It's like their brains have been broken and they're
no longer living in an objective reality. You know, at the very start of this thing, I can
understand people responding to any type of new threat. I think typically one could argue
that it's better to overreact rather than to under react. Because if you under react and
something is, you know, very, very bad, then you know, you can you can kind of get
caught with your guard down. Whereas if you overreact, OK, you you waste expend too
much energy and you might look silly for a little while. But then things calmed down and
everything's OK. But you had people who have been on high, high, high alert now for
approaching two years. And as you said, if you're talking about people who are young and
otherwise healthy, then it doesn't make sense. It's an extraordinarily disproportionate
response to the actual threat. If someone is there thinking that if you know, if you're 25
years old and in decent shape and you're thinking that, oh, you know, this is a death
sentence to get it and you're not living in, you're not living in reality and you're not really
living because you're you're simply existing. You're too afraid to do to just just live your life
because you're living in such a state of fear and that constant anxiety and constant stress
and all those stress hormones, that's also really, really detrimental to people's health, not
just their lives and ability to have fun, but it's not good for them. So, things should be
proportionate. Things should be balanced every single day. We live with all types of threat.
We are constantly running risk analysis. Every single time you cross the street, every time
you step outside, every time you get in a car. I mean, if you're 25 years old, you should be
more afraid of getting in a car than you are of this particular disease. But then that's just
going by statistics that's going off of facts and data. But people don't look at it that way.
Some people do. Some people don't. But I think that, you know, the level of hysteria that's
been been driven into people and a lot of this has come from governments. A lot of it has
come from the media, the nonstop 600 plus day fear campaign. And it's not a complete
shock that some people have been affected in such a way. I don't necessarily know how to
get everybody out of it. I think perhaps there are some people who are always going to live
this way now, and I think that's a shame. But yeah, I think from the beginning, something
I've said from very early on is that if we're going to talk about health and if this is what this
is all supposed to be about our health, then we need to speak more. We need to speak
holistically, right? There's not just one disease out there or one threat out there. There are
a lot of things and there's many aspects to health that exist from managing your body
weight to exercise, drinking enough water nutrition, getting enough sleep, all of that good
stuff. Even not living in a constant state of stress and being around people who keep you
in a positive mind state and doing things that are positive for you, all of that is
extraordinarily important. Mental health and physical health are combined. We like to think
of these in western societies, these two very separate entities you hear people talk about,
you know, mental health, like it's totally detached from physical health, but these things are
very strongly connected and intertwined. And this would have been the perfect opportunity
to have a more holistic conversation about health,
Chris Martenson [00:10:08] which we've never really had in this country, right? So. And
this is expose that laid a bare, you know, was one of the first tweets. I remember where I
was like, Who is this guy? And you caught me? I think you said this from memory. The
hardest part, about two weeks to flatten the curve is the first 500 days.
Zuby [00:10:27] Yeah, I think I've I think I've updated it to 600 now.
Chris Martenson [00:10:34] 600 so, and then just recently, November 27th, you have a
tweet here. By the way, how much time do you spend composing these tweets? Because
Zuby [00:10:39] little. I just do them on the fly.
Chris Martenson [00:10:42] Geez, you're good. It's amazing.
Zuby [00:10:44] No, I'm I'm a rapper. So, where words are kind of my thing?
Chris Martenson [00:10:47] Yeah. You just connect right away. November 27th, you
tweeted here. And by the way, the handle is at Zuby. You buy music @ZubyMusic on
Twitter is it's been two years and the powers that be have not recommended vitamin D,
nor weight loss yet. So, I can say with absolute certainty, this ain't about your health. Purely
face diapers, anti-social behavior, needles. You will own nothing and they will be happy
and rich. This really hasn't been about like if it was about our health, if it was about public
health, we would have heard about. Vitamin D and weight loss, right?
Zuby [00:11:19] Yeah, I mean, those are real, those are really low hanging fruit. Yeah.
And look, if we're if we're looking at statistics for anyone who is concerned about this
particular disease, I know in the USA they had studies showing that 78 percent of the
people who were hospitalized with this virus were overweight or obese. Also, a very high
percentage. I can't remember the number off the top of my head, but the majority more
than 50 percent of people were also vitamin D deficient. I think it could have been as high
as 80 percent. Vitamin D is extraordinarily cheap. Losing weight is not something that's
necessarily easy, but it can be done and you have the power to do it. It's relatively simple
and straightforward. Simple and straightforward does not mean easy. But again, it's been
two years. So, if someone was seriously concerned about their health and props to
everyone who has done this, I know people who have lost significant amounts of weight
and taken their health really under really got their health under control over this time
period, and I absolutely salute that. But it would have been fantastic to have more
messaging and more conversations around that because going beyond, I mean, if you look
at the biggest killers around the world, certainly the biggest killer in the USA, biggest killer
globally is cardiovascular disease right now. No, you know, death comes for us all. Life
has a 100 percent mortality rate. But in terms of being able to live healthy lives and to
extend our life spans, then everybody knows that it's important to have your weight under
control. Everybody knows that. Everyone knows that obesity can lead to all sorts of other
problems, including the risk of various types of cancer. And none of this should be
controversial. It's not controversial to suggest to people that smoking is unhealthy or that
smoking two packs of cigarettes a day could lead to mouth cancer and lung cancer and all
that kind of thing. And so, it shouldn't be controversial or considered politically incorrect to
say the same thing about someone being being severely overweight. That's not a moral
condemnation upon that person or saying that they're a bad person or anything like that.
It's very it's especially in our modern society. It's very it's very easy to gain weight,
especially in the USA. I don't think there's any country where it's easier to to gain weight
and to enjoy the process. But people need to take that personal responsibility and
recognize that, OK, this is something that I can control and I might might. One of my
general thoughts in life is that we should control the things that we have, the that we have
the ability to live it. Life is unpredictable. Accidents happen. There's random things and
catastrophes that can come out of seemingly nowhere, and we don't have control of
absolutely everything. But for the things that we do, we we shouldn't be reckless with
them, especially when it comes to our own bodies and our own health. I'm a big advocate
Chris Martenson [00:14:15] Now let's let's go there very quickly. Your book "Strong
Advice" that's just come out in paperback. I saw some, some promo around that. What?
What's the approach you took in that book? What's in there?
Zuby [00:14:26] Sure thing. So my book "Strong Advice" primarily I wrote the book that I
wanted. So I've been I've been training since I was about 15 or 16, so about two decades
now, which I which is pretty crazy. But when I first started out, like a lot of young men or
young people going to the gym, I didn't really know what I was doing. I kind of just wander
around the gym, you know, I'd read some muscle magazines and try to implement the
workouts that all these are avoided up bodybuilders were using and stuff. But I essentially
wrote the book that I wish someone could have given to a 15-year-old version of me. That
would have helped me to avoid a lot of the pitfalls when it comes to strength training and
nutrition, and also mindset and motivation. So that's actually how the book is is split up. It
starts with mindset and motivation. Then the largest section is on nutrition really lays it out
for people if you want to build muscle, if you want to lose fat, specifically lose fat and not
lose a lot of muscle mass at the same time, because people tend to want to lean out, not
just say stay the same body fat percentage and shrink, it lays out how to manage your
calories, how to manage your macronutrient intake so that you can reach whatever your
specific goal is. Even if you're someone who is really skinny and you're trying to gain
weight explains how to do that in a healthy way. More people, obviously, you're trying to
lose weight. It explains that if you're just trying to maintain and perhaps get stronger and
stay healthy and fit overall, it lays it all out and it does it without having lots of dogmatic
and draconian rules. I don't like to give people a cookie cutter, one size fits all program
where it's just like, you know, eat this and eat that. Don't do this, don't do that. So, both
when it comes to the nutrition and also in the training section, it's more about giving people
general rules and. Principles, which they can then understand the basics and then there's
some wiggle room so that you can tailor it for yourself. So whatever type of diet that you
eat or foods that you prefer. You know, it's not, it's not bogging people down in minutia and
detail, which I think is a problem with a lot of the nutrition and fitness work out there. I think
sometimes people like to show they're knowledgeable just by throwing out as much
complicated stuff as possible. But I think when you overload people like that, then you get
this analysis paralysis and people don't know what to do. That's when you start getting
people asking crazy questions like, oh, you know, can I, can I eat carbs after six p.m.?
And it's like, if you're asking that question, you've lost the you've lost the plot. So what's
the best time of day to train morning or afternoon? Or you could say it doesn't. It doesn't
matter when you can get to the gym is the best time for you to train, whether it's at night or
in the morning afternoon. I don't know your lifestyle. I don't know what time you go to work.
I don't know what you do for a living. So that's going to vary person to person. But if you
get this, you know, it's like the Pareto Principle if you if you get this. 80 percent of stuff,
right then, you know, you're charging more like you're going to get 80 percent of the results
from sort of 20 percent of of what you do. So, this is the core important stuff. And then
there's a lot of room to play within within these rules, right? If you're trying to lose weight,
OK, you create a calorie deficit. And then if you, for example, keep your protein levels high
and you continue strength training, then you can make sure that the weight that you're
losing is going to be primarily body fat rather than lean body mass. Sure, any diet just it's
just simple thermodynamics, any diet where you're consuming less calories than your.
Wait, sorry, you're burning more calories than you're consuming, so you're eating fewer
calories than than you do your body's your body's total daily energy expenditure. Then
where am I getting that right? You're burning. Yes, you're burning up. You're OK. That's
right. You're burning more calories than you're eating. And anything that does that, you're
going to lose weight. I mean, I could eat. I could eat five Snickers bars a day and lose
weight. But that doesn't mean that it's a good diet or that it's nutritious. Sure, it would put
me in a calorie deficit, but it's not the best way to do things. So that's really what the book
is about. It's it's concise. It's simple, it straightforward, primarily aimed at beginners and
intermediates, and it's really to get people going. And I also want it to be a reference guide
that people can read multiple times and go back to. And if they just need to kind of reset
and recalibrate themselves, then strong advice can help them with that.
Chris Martenson [00:19:05] You know, I had a really. There's a little part of Scott Adams,
the Dilbert cartoonist who wrote a book about how to how to fail badly and succeed at
everything, and he had one part in there which said, "Goals are for losers. Systems are for
winners," right? So you set a goal. I really it really caught me because I thought it. It
worked for me where he said, You know, if you set a goal, I'm going to lose 10 pounds.
What happens when you do that and you get there? Well, now you have to set another
goal, right? You've already sort of lost the game, whereas if you want to win that, you just
you make sure you show up at the gym every day. You have a system of how you go
about eating. So for me and I don't know if this works for other people, but for me,
intermittent fasting has worked really well. So that's my only hard and fast rule. I have
hours I don't eat during. And that simple system works really well for me. Just that alone.
That's like, like you said, 80 20 at that little 20 percent of effort right there to just make sure
I stick within a window gives me about 80 percent of the benefits I need right now.
Zuby [00:20:00] It gives you a lot of control. What's great about intermittent fasting is
number one, it's extraordinarily hard to overeat if you're only eating in a six to eight hour
window. And number two, it makes you very, very conscious about your food and caloric
intake. If you're grazing all the way throughout the day and you're drinking beverages
which have calories and you're eating and you're snacking and you're nibbling. It's kind of
hard to keep track of. But if you're intermittent fasting and you're just eating, say, two
meals a day just in a relatively short window, then it's very easy to be clear on, OK, this is
exactly how much I ate. And that's it. And you're not constantly thinking about food. Also, it
means that when you eat, you actually feel satisfied. So even if you're eating at a caloric
deficit, you don't have that constant nagging hunger that you might get if you do the old
school bodybuilder bro thing of eating six or seven meals scattered all throughout the day
when you're never actually reaching saturation.
Chris Martenson [00:20:57] Right, right, right. So fantastic. So "Strong Advice". I steer
people towards that, for sure. I want to get back to something, though, because we were
talking about data and here we're talking about, you know, information and data that might
apply to health. But when we were talking about COVID before you said something that
was really important and I think it was captured in a tweet you had out earlier, it's just
November 29th. Your quote says, "Don't get it twisted. There are millions of people who
don't want the COVID-19 hype and policies to ever end. They found meaning in it, and
now it's an integral part of their identity." You think that's the case, that there are people
who who like they are now somehow attached to the to whatever this narrative is, which
feels they found meaning in it? How was that possible?
Zuby [00:21:45] Wow. That's yeah, I absolutely do think that's true. I'm not saying it's a
majority of people, but I think it's a it's a significant percentage and you can see it and you
can hear it. You can, you can see it with your own eyes. I I'm not I'm not a psychologist.
But from what I know of psychology, there are certain things that human beings always
seek. One of those things is purpose. One of those things is meaning. Another thing is a
sense of community. Another thing is a sense of morality. Now, traditionally, a lot of these
things come from religion or even from philosophy. They can come from various ways. But
in the absence of those things, or when a very strong narrative is pushed, people can find
these things in politics. They can find it in people who become extremely fanatical about
almost any, almost any subject area of interest. And I think that with the narrative that has
been pushed and that many people have been indoctrinated to over the course of this
period of time, it's also done that for them where people actually feel that the more
frightened they are or the more frightened they pretend to be, and how much they project
that to the world. And grandstand and virtue signaling about how much they are following
the rules and following the code and how concerned they are and how much they're
abiding by all of this. It actually, you know, they give each other a pat on a pat on the back
for this and they feel that they are, you know, it provides the meaning, the purpose.
They've then got their community. They've also got this sense of morality because then
they can demonize people who are not adhering as strongly to their secular religion as as
they are. And I think also some people prior to all of this honestly had very boring lives.
And so they want to have an enemy. They want to have some drama. They want to feel
like they're I mean, you know, we had people at the beginning of the saying, you know,
this is our this is our generation's World War Two. And I'm like, Man, if that's the truth, our
generation is lame because this is like to compare this to World War Two is is frankly,
frankly an embarrassment. You know, it's not it's it's not like it hasn't been being quite that
deep. But that's really how some people want to imagine it. And people like to be heroes in
their own story, of course. And to have a hero, you also need to have villains. And I think
that's also why you've seen people vilifying others and creating these tribal divisions and
wanting to attack each other, so on and so forth. As I've said before, this is not this is not
everybody, but it's certainly it's certainly millions. I'd say at least hundreds of millions,
possibly into the billions, if you're looking on a global scale. And so, it's led to it's led us to
this strange, very strange place, which I think that if you were to go back to 2019 and try to
explain where things are right now in December 2021, if you would try to explain this to
people, they wouldn't believe you, right? That it would, it just wouldn't make sense. They'd
be very, very confused and be getting all types of mixed signals. But it's happened. It's
happened quickly, but it's also happened quite slowly. But I think that when people are
again, when people are operating from a position of fear and anxiety, then that fear tends
to override their rational thinking and their ability and capacity just to be just to be
reasonable and to be balanced and to not just, you know, the emotions kind of override
everything. And it leads to it leads to some bizarre behaviors.
Chris Martenson [00:25:53] It does. So, if I if I understood you correctly, there were some
preconditions that were in place prior to COVID, right? So, people's lives lacked meaning
they lacked purpose. Maybe they were working in a bullshit job, as David Graeber would
say, or in some way their lives weren't all that satisfying. And then all of a sudden COVID
comes along, and it provides this sort of organizing principle for some folks. Hmm. And so
is, I think, into that. Let me try Theriot on you, so I've noticed that for whatever reason,
you're very thoughtful, very free-thinking person, for whatever reason. When I look at your
media appearances, they are typically on right of center platforms. If we're doing a left right
spectrum right, we'll call that conservatives. Conservatives seem to be more interested to
hear what you had to say. I've noticed that left of center seems to be more caught up in
this thing. So here's my theory. The left really ejected. You started with the word religion.
They ejected it pretty solidly from their framework a long time ago. I look across every
single culture tribal, aboriginal, hierarchical western, people have religion. It's been part of
human construct forever. So that need for that spiritual connection. Well, if you eject it, I
think that it just gets replaced with something and it got replaced with a faith in
government. So I see people with an almost religious faith in Fauci and I'm like like, never
put your faith in a human right because it's a bad idea.
Zuby [00:27:19] You're absolutely correct. And we've seen this in the past in history. It's
not by accident that when you look at the totalitarian regimes of the 20th century,
something that they were extremely hostile towards is organized religion extremely hostile.
Whether you're looking at the whether you're looking at Maoist China or you're looking at
Stalinist Soviet Union or you're looking at Nazi Germany or you are looking at Pol Pot's
Vietnam, whatever it is there were, there were always extraordinarily hostile towards
organized religion because it's competition and it's very, very hard to indoctrinate people
into an ideology if they already have a strong faith and belief system. But as human
beings, we're hierarchical. We're always, we're always looking up towards a higher power
or higher authority. And in the absence of a belief in God, in many cases, not all cases, but
in many cases, especially on a large societal level that ends up with people either
worshiping themselves or the state and the government. Or, like I said before, some some
other type of ideology. And so, when people are doing that and they believe that all of their
inherent rights and privileges and worth and value and whatever comes from the
government or from some human authority, then that their behavior then makes makes
more sense because they don't truly believe that they have any inherent rights. The
government can just say, OK, like you can do this or you can't do this, and people just 100
percent go along with it. Or if they, you know, to me, something that's interesting is that
the, you know, there's an interesting connection and this is something I've been kind of
thinking about a lot. I haven't really sort of thinking out loud here, but this sort of
connection between laws and morality. Right? I think the good laws and the laws that we
all agree on are absolutely based in morality, right? Thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not
steal. Thou shalt not, you know, assault other people hurt other people, take other
people's stuff, but give false testimony, et cetera. We all agree on these things typically
across every, every society and every culture. But it's also possible. And again, we've
seen this many times throughout history where you have a law that is not moral. And so
that's that's an interesting thing to consider. I mean, if you if you look even across the
world, I mean, how much for how many thousands of years was an institution as obviously
horrific as slavery, totally legal and justified that it was never right. It was never moral, but
it was in law. You've had, you know, segregationist policies in law, absolutely
discriminatory policies in law and you still do in some places. But that doesn't mean that it
is right. It doesn't mean it's moral. It doesn't mean that it's correct. And so, I think it's
interesting to consider, I guess, from a philosophical perspective this this correlation
between legal and moral right, because you can absolutely have a law which is highly
immoral. In fact, there that that that that's happened before. And you could have something
that's a very immoral and correct act, which in circumstance certain circumstances
becomes illegal or unlawful. I think in a healthy society and with healthy governance, we
typically avoid this, but it's certainly something that can that can happen. But I think that as
I said before, if the government is viewed as this sort of infallible, omnipotent authority and
you have to remember what I said when I say government, you're just talking about human
being. You're just talking about politicians, many of whom are not any more
knowledgeable, respectful, honest or decent than the average person on the street, in fact,
I would argue the average person on the street is probably more trustworthy than the
average politician because they're not seeking that power. And funnily enough, people
simultaneously recognize this, but they also sort of reject it. They they pay it lip service.
They'll say, oh, you know, I don't trust these people, whatever, but they'll still kind of. They
are still implicitly trust them in their behavior. So, to me, it's just something whether people
should be more a bit more judicious about it, maybe a little bit more skeptical of. I have my
reasons for my skepticism. I'm not. I'm not a I'm not a cynic. I'm not cynical about
everything, but I try to sort of weigh it up and at least do the thinking and see, OK, what's
what's making sense here or what's not making sense?
Chris Martenson [00:32:18] Yeah, yeah, I very well said. So, I want to explore this idea
because what you described is that for a long time, laws prescribed what you couldn't do.
And that's how it was organized. But with the COVID passports, the vaccine passports,
now all of Europe, Canada, U.S., Australia, New Zealand principally are modeling what we
see in China, which is which is a digital thing that proscribes what you can do. Now this is
actually a gigantic shift from Magna Carta proscribing forward. What you can't do in law to
suddenly saying, we're going to invert all of that because we're smart enough to tell you
what we're going to tell you what you can do based on this thing. And by the way, it's an
emergency. We have to do it just today right before we started this recording. The EU
Commission president announced that they're exploring making vaccines mandatory for all
citizens in Europe, right? And put this passport as a condition of that. So. Isn't that, Zuby,
this is a huge shift going from. You can't kill people. You can't lie. You can't cheat, can't
steal to. Oh, if you want to go to the gym, if you want to eat at a restaurant, you're going to.
This is what you can do. This deserves a really full-throated conversation and we're having
almost none except at the edges as it were. But the center mass is not interested in
exploring whether or not we should even do this
Zuby [00:33:34] because people have been convinced that it's about their health and their
well-being. And if you oppose any measure that people believe rightly or wrongly is for
their health, well-being, safety and security, then you are made to look like the bad guy.
You are made to look like the person who is immoral or trying to hurt people who are trying
to kill people or doesn't care about the greater good or about humanity, community, cetera,
so on and so forth, right? We've seen this throughout this entire period. And so, the powers
that be are able to capitalize off of that, I'd say, in a very malicious, malicious fashion and
institute all kinds, all kinds of powers that previously would have been unthinkable in the
western world, right? It's amazing watching this whole thing because the so-called most
liberal and most democratic places and in many instances have been the most
authoritarian and the most tyrannical throughout this whole thing. It's it's a very it's been a
very weird inversion that's going on. It's more of a move towards more of a China model,
as you were saying before, where it's not that, OK, you can go about and live your life and
do what you want without permission until you explicitly cannot do something because it
infringes on someone else's rights to moving towards this, you know, wanting, needing to
ask permission to do everything right and needed permission to go outside, need
permission to go see your friends, need permission to go, see your family, need
permission to just do basic things in life that previously you never needed permission for,
or to show your papers for or to be identified for all of that. And I think the reason why
people are slipping into it is that I also think it's just complacency. I think it's complacency,
and I also do think it's cowardice as well. I do think I do think that it's. Yeah, it's it frustrates
me to say that, but I think that's what it is, people want to keep their head below the
parapet. And if you do that, look as far as I'm concerned, the greatest inheritance you can
give to any future generation or I don't even know if it's the greatest. I think the most basic
inheritance that you should give them is that they shall have the same. They should have
the same individual rights, freedoms and liberties as you've had growing up read. I think
like at a minimum, you want to you want to protect that. You want to pass down freedom to
the next generation. And I think that the current course, people are doing a very poor job of
that. For the most part, there's a lot of people, it's a lot of people fighting. There's a lot of
people pushing back. There's a lot of people speaking up and the narrative is is breaking
down and things are changing. But for so-called I mean, if you think of how hard people
fought for freedom in the past. Right. We were told we were talking about World War Two
before World War One. This is literally people, millions and millions of people sacrificing
their lives very in a very direct manner to avoid totalitarianism right to, to avoid, to avoid
just to be able to live freely and for their children, grandchildren and so on to be able to live
freely without dictatorial rule. Because we have to remember human beings, always
human societies, lean towards authoritarianism as a default. Freedom and liberty is
actually the exception across the world and throughout history. It's the exception, actually.
That's why the USA was such an exceptional country. It's the first country that was
founded without any king or dictator. Prior to that, it's all monarchies and dictators. And
then you had the USA and in the founding of the USA, the bill of Rights in the Constitution,
a lot of stuff was set up very well on paper, as we know, it took a long period of time for
everything that was written down to be properly applied and actually truly, truly applying to
all all citizens of all colors of both genders, so on and so forth. I think the sort of promise
was made and the paper was there, but people weren't really living. People were not
living, according to it at the time and over over the period of a couple of centuries, the
USA, and I'd say the West in general has strived to get these individual rights for
everybody, and there have been a lot of fights and a lot of battles, both physically and
verbally to get there. So with what I'm seeing is like, look, let's let's let's not lose that. Let's
not let's not jettison that. That's so important. It's so unique. It's so valuable. So, so let's not
be so comfortable that we that we take it for granted again, that perhaps it's better. Let's
look at it the other way around, right? We were talking before about because someone
might hear this and think, Oh, you're overreacting, everything's going to go back to normal.
As I was saying before, perhaps it's better to overreact at the beginning and then scale
back once it's like, OK, all right, it's not going as far as we fear it might. But that's not what
we're seeing. We're currently seeing things, not everywhere, but in a lot of places, things
are worse now than they were just a year ago. People have less freedom now than they
did a year ago, which doesn't even make sense if you're talking back to the original threat.
That doesn't make any sense, logically. But that's but that's what's happening. And if
you're seeing what's going on in places of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, certain parts
of Europe, certain democratic states in the USA and so on, then you can see with the
direction that things are are trending it. And I always believed that look, ultimately
governments are always going to try to increase their power. And these politicians,
whether they're mayors, prime ministers, presidents, whatever, you know, these are
people who like power. They crave power. That's literally by definition, why they're in those
positions. So they always have to be kept in check. We have to remember that these
people are supposed to work for us. We pay their salaries. We're the people who elect
them, their public servants. They're not leaders and dictators and kings and queens. And I
think that that balance of power and accountability is often forgotten, certainly by them. But
I think it's also forgotten by the average person as well,
Chris Martenson [00:39:53] what very well said. And one reflection of that last part is
Fauci has this really dark series of emails that came out January 29, 2020, through
February 2nd, where they were worried about this lab leak hypothesis coming out and he
didn't call in any NIH scientists. He called in all these shadowy sorts of like people around
the world who probably the most conflict of interest people in the story. And those emails
got redacted, and senators and congressmen in the United States can't get access to
them. So, we have a career bureaucrat able to not even not only not serve the people, but
not even be responsive to the highest elected officials of the people. It tells you sort of
where we are in the story, right? It's we've gotten to a fairly.
Zuby [00:40:36] The fact that that guy is still on TV every day, giving giving advice and
being treated as some kind of exalted hero is one of the most mind blowing things I've
seen over over the past few years.
Chris Martenson [00:40:47] So is it all.
Zuby [00:40:48] It's crazy. It's truly, truly crazy. He must be the most. I know he's the
highest paid public public official in the U.S.A., right?
Chris Martenson [00:40:58] Yeah, publicly. The money we know about.
Zuby [00:41:01] Yeah. I think he must be also be one of the most one of the most
protected clearly, because I don't know. I don't I don't think anyone else could have gotten
away with the awful stuff that guy has done over the decades, not just in these past couple
of years, but over the decades. It's it's pretty mind blowing. It's very mind blowing.
Chris Martenson [00:41:21] Well, I interviewed RFK Jr. a while back and you just came
out with a book "The Real Anthony Fauci", if you ever want your mind blowing in a really
dark way. It's a thousand pages of just like documented evidence. This guy, just what he
did on HIV alone, should have disqualified him from anything from life, you know,
Zuby [00:41:38] Yeah, it's crazy. And it's not just that he's looked at in this neutral way, it's
that so many people think he's some kind of some kind of hero. It's the level of hero
worship around him. That's really, really strange. You know, I don't I generally don't like to
speak on individuals. I like to talk more on ideas. But I think that's a good example of just
the power of media propaganda and the power of, you know, when they want to make
somebody a hero or turn somebody into a villain, just how much power. And how many
tools at their disposal? There are it's a frightening thing.
Chris Martenson [00:42:15] It's like that, right? Andrew Cuomo is the hero of COVID. And
next thing you know, he's gone right. They just didn't turn like on a dime. So well, these are
really powerful moments of first question, then, is if we don't turn the tide here, the
trajectory we are on, where does it go?
Zuby [00:42:34] I think you end up with a Chinese style social credit score system.
Chris Martenson [00:42:39] What's the risk of that?
Zuby [00:42:41] The risk of that is having a potentially irreversible society where you are
no longer you no longer have the basic human rights and civil liberties that we have all
grown accustomed to throughout our entire lives and through the past several decades,
you no longer have equality under the law. You no longer have people having remotely
equal access to various things. You have a state of medical coercion and tyranny where
you no longer truly own your body and your own basic autonomy. You have no privacy.
You're tracked everywhere that you go. It's late. It's ends up with like a 1984 type of
dystopian future where, yeah, you no longer have the liberty that we are are used to, and
you can now be monitored and controlled and punished and restricted based on things
that previously would have been pretty innocuous. And I think that's that's a that's a
terrifying thought. And I think that the technology that we have is something that can
ultimately. Technology has the power to free and also the power to enslave. And I think
we've already seen with our with our smartphones and social media and all that stuff, just
how much we can choose to be partially willingly enslaved by technology to some extent.
And as far as I'm concerned, that's kind of like a warm up for a poor potential future. So I
think we need to be very careful with technology. I think we need to be very vigilant in
terms of our own rights and liberties and being able to answer those type of questions like
we know why. Why is it important? Why does this matter? Why is it even unique? Why
shouldn't we just give everything to the powers that be and the bureaucrats and whatever?
And I think also you have to consider that the, you know, the ultimately the locus of power
should be with individuals. If you're an adult, you know, it should ultimately be up to you
how you choose to live your life and raise your family and look after your loved ones and
so on and so forth, right? That is that's the beauty of it, right within again, of course, we
were within basic legal boundaries. You should have those abilities and those choices, and
that's what makes you powerful. And I think if you. If you empower the individual, you also
empower the family. And you also empower the community and thus you empower the
country and you, you empower the world. I think that that's the best way you can fix things.
I mean, that's that's the way you continue to improve society. And as again, we've tried
these collective experiments before where people try to socially engineer a whole
population of millions and millions of people. And it always ends and it ends in bloodshed
and ends in bloodshed and ends in genocide. Then it ends in war. It ends in horrible stuff.
And that experiment has run several times just in the past century. So I don't want to do it
again. I don't. I don't. I'm not trying to do communism 3.0 or 4.0. Let's we've got a model
that is imperfect, but it's driving towards the best that we're going to get. And that is based
on individual civil liberties and rights being able to respect each other's choices and
decisions and opinions, having free speech, being able to have open open conversations
and not be censored and de-platformed in all of this. And ultimately just to strive for
decency and kindness and treating people fairly and equally as much as we can.
Chris Martenson [00:46:37] I think that's the nub of it here, which is that I just I've just met
you. I can tell that you trust people to do what's right for themselves, even if that means
they're going to do something boneheaded in the world. That because that's the path they
were supposed to take in life, I guess, or something like that. I feel that our leaders are
authoritarians. They don't trust humans. They really treat us with disdain, right? They don't
even give us a comprehensive narrative that makes sense about, say, vaccines or vitamin
D or, you know, your kids have to be messed up. Your five-year-old needs to go to school
in a mask. We can't show you any science that supports that, but we can be pretty sure
psychologists tell us that they will be damaged because that's the point of life when they're
trying to learn social cues, which is immensely complicated, subtle and and it requires a lot
of wiring of the neural pathways. And we're just going to mask that up because because
that's what's required to be conforming to this narrative that we have right now. So we're
even like in the business of ritualistically sacrificing children's development on the altar of
this narrative. And that, to me, is a is a highly disdainful thing to agree to enforce on
Zuby [00:47:42] I agree. I think it's reprehensible. I think it's absolutely reprehensible to
sacrifice children for the sake of neurotic adults.
Chris Martenson [00:47:50] Absolutely so. So as we come to the end of the Zuby, what's
next for you? Where do people find you follow you? We didn't even get into your music.
Zuby [00:47:58] That's all good, man. There's a lot to talk about. I know.
Chris Martenson [00:48:01] Yeah. So I mean, I gave you up your Twitter handle, but
literally, how do people find you follow you?
Zuby [00:48:07] Yeah, sure thing. So you can find me on all social media @ZubyMusic.
I'm on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, minds.com. You can find me at Zuby
Music. That's Zuby music. And if you want to check out my music, my merchandise,
books, go to TeamZuby.com. And if you want to check out my music and podcast, my
podcast is called "Real Talk with Zuby". Those are available on Spotify and also on
iTunes, Apple Podcasts and so on.
Chris Martenson [00:48:36] Well, you've shown all of us today why you are worthy of
following. I mean, absolutely just a first class mind and thinker and speaker and user of
words. All of that. So Zuby, thank you so much for your time today and you got a big fan
here. Anything I can do to help.
Zuby [00:48:49] Appreciate it. Thank you, Chris. Thanks, Chris. Appreciate it.
Chris Martenson [00:48:53] All right. Thank you.