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    A Serious Message From Chris Martenson

    Time is running short to brace for impact
    by Chris Martenson

    Friday, July 10, 2020, 7:49 PM

Like a windstorm toppling a hollowed-out tree, SARS-CoV-2 didn’t cause the current recession so much as it exposed how rotten things already were.

Even before SARS-CoV-2, households were struggling. Far too many were limping along without any savings at all, one crisis away from financial ruin.

Debts at every level were at record highs before SARS-CoV-2 came along, and the Federal Reserve was already busy bailing out the US financial system before the virus hit.

The shale oil industry had failed to generate any profits for over a decade before anyone ever heard of Covid19.

The worldwide wealth gap was already record levels before we were forced into lockdown.

What the coronavirus pandemic has done, though, is give the ruling authorities aircover to accelerate all of these trends to warp speed.

Billionaires have been, by far, the largest winners in this story so far.  Ditto for mega corporations.  Main Street and small and medium-sized businesses have been utterly crushed.

Where the Great Financial Crisis in 2008 could have been — and should have been — a wake-up call to operate the system more equitably and sustainably, it was used instead as an excuse to make things even worse.

No bank executives were charged or even went to jail for any crimes they played in bringing the financial system to the brink of disaster.  Accounting deceit, wire fraud, and forgery — anybody remember ‘robosigning’?  That was forgery, a felony, and not one charge was ever leveled.  Instead, the Too Big To Fail banks were bailed out and got bigger at the expense of smaller, more responsible firms.

My point here is that SARS-CoV-2 has laid bare our true value systems.  Some countries have done an admirable job of showing they care about their citizens, making public safety and health their top priority.  Other countries, such as mine (the US), have demonstrated the opposite.

When it comes to making judgment, I look at actions much more than words. What have been the actions of the US authorities so far?

  1. The Federal Reserve swooped in to assure that the wealthy got even wealthier.
  2. The CDC couldn’t get effective test kits prepared or deployed until months after many other countries did.
  3. $Billions and $billions were smoothly and rapidly delivered to the largest institutions, corporations and wealthiest households.
  4. But only a single $1200 stimulus check has been sent to the poorest of American families.  Well, most of them, but many are still waiting for their stimulus checks.  Every household sandwiched between the rich and the poor has received nothing.

In other words, the Fed has made its #1 priority the preservation of the financial advantages of the already-rich, while the federal government has made clear that public health isn’t really a priority at all.

The unfairness and legal and moral wrongness of this next bit of news stunned even long-time skeptics like myself:

(Source)

I object strenuously to any taxpayer money, my money, being sent to any and all religious organizations (I’m a big believer in the separation of church and state).  But to do so to help the Catholic church cover shortfalls due to payouts to victims of institutionalized pedophilia?  Really, that’s just…I’m out of words.

But more often than not, that’s the business the federal government is in: protecting the abusers, not the victims.

Thousands of hedge funds and other extremely wealthy financial firms are similarly feeding from the same trough of substantial taxpayer payouts.

But where real support is needed? The free money river has never been more than a trickle. Testing for SARS-CoV-2 has been throttled back due to lack of funding. Hospitals remain chronically short of critical PPE. 30% of all US households were unable to make last month’s mortgage payment.

As I said, these dots simply reveal the values and priorities of those running the show.  If I were to use a single word to sum things up, it would be: greed.

Anything and everything that funnels money from the many into the pockets of the few is being done and done swiftly.  Anything monies directed to the well-being of the masses is being done slowly, grudgingly, and sparingly (if at all).  “Never let a good crisis go to waste” is the motto of current crowd in charge.

I am asked all the time to decide between Covid-19 being real or this whole thing being a scam.  To which I reply, “why not both?”

The Elites Have Won

The elites have all the power and they have no interest in sharing any of it.  They are too blinded by greed and driven by fear to do otherwise.

In this way, they pretty much have won.

They’ll print up however much money they desire and hand it out to themselves — after, of course, laundering it through the ““markets”” to create the appearance that fairness was actually involved.

But we all know it’s not. The data is crystal clear: Wall Street’s mighty siphons assure that nearly all of the Fed’s freshly printed money goes straight into the pockets of the most well-connected players.

As I’ve taken pains to point out, given all the public’s focus on Black Lives Matter, somehow the Federal Reserve has escaped being called out for being a nearly pure-white organization whose efforts overwhelmingly funnel additional funds to white households.  Whether by design or accident, the Federal Reserve’s actions do more to cement racial inequality than any other entity, group, or organization in existence.  By far.

Looked at another way, Trump is soothed by the stock market hitting new all-time highs and I believe this has blunted the seriousness with which he takes SARS-CoV-2.  In jamming the stock markets higher, I see the Federal Reserve as also partly responsible for the lame US response to Covid, which has already cost far too many people their lives and many more people their health.

Of course, intervening in the financial markers to push them higher during an election year is a profoundly political act. Something the Fed has absolutely no business doing.

Put all that together and the Federal Reserve is a partisan, political organization that is costing people their lives and health while promoting racial inequality.

Yet it’s given a nearly free pass on all of that from the mainstream press, our supposed watchdog for truth.  Hardly is Fed Chair Jerome Powell ever asked a single daunting question along these lines.

Our health organizations like the CDC and the WHO are similarly compromised and complicit, too shot through with political intrigue and pharma money to be of any help.

All of which is both shameful and self-injurious, because if we’d like to avoid a very dark future filled with societal unraveling, then the Fed’s dangerous actions need to be brought to heel. And soon.

However, after all that has transpired, I don’t see much hope of the Fed changing its ways.  It has proven it can’t be goaded or shamed into introspection or altering course.

Conclusion

All of which is my way of saying that I am bracing for impact.

I simply don’t know what else to do.  We are on our own.

It’s time to consider how you will provide your family with the basics, the very bottom layers of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs — water, food, shelter, resources, health & safety — if the systems we depend on today start weakening:

When people are busy moving down the Hierarchy of Needs, that means society is crumbling.

And folks are already indeed moving. Literally. Real estate for sale in Manhattan is piling up without takers, while more rural properties are being snapped up.  Gardens are being planted and guns are being bought.

SARS-CoV-2 has taught many lessons and revealed much.  To me, it’s revealed that the elites as led by the Federal Reserve won’t deviate from accelerating inequity until being forced to stop.  Whether that will occur via social revolution, the destruction of the purchasing power of the US dollar, or something else, I don’t know.

But I do know that whatever it is, it won’t be the cause of all the misery that will follow.  The true culprits are the current and former managers (not leaders) with the Fed and within the DC beltway who failed to protect the vulnerable, set reasonable policies, and conduct themselves with integrity.

So my advice is to brace for impact.  There’s nothing any of us can do to affect national monetary policy or stop the major unraveling trends already set in motion, but we can do our best to step outside harm’s way and tend the welfare of ourselves and those we care about as the system falters.

In Part 2: Brace For Impact! I share the key indicators that have me most concerned about the nearness of the next systemic shock, as well as the key steps I recommend you take now using whatever time remains available to you.

We are facing unprecedented challenges that are accelerating at a faster rate than at any other time in human history. Every day we have left to prepare prudently is a gift. Use the time wisely.

Click here to read Part 2 of this report (free executive summary, enrollment required for full access).

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96 Comments

  • Fri, Jul 10, 2020 - 8:14pm

    #1
    Keyser Soze

    Keyser Soze

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    In fact, we are winning, slowly but surely

    Chris writes: "In this way, they pretty much have won."

    No, they haven't- not by a long shot! The article that Chris has written here reveals the passion, intelligence, courage and pure humanity that is being arrayed against them in ever increasing numbers. We are in very early innings, and I have little doubt that in the fullness of time WE THE PEOPLE will win!  Why?- because we are armed with a very powerful weapon that has the elites sweating in their sleep- truth and decency!

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  • Fri, Jul 10, 2020 - 8:46pm

    Island girl

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    Replying to Keyser Soze

    We must understand how all this happened, then help our neighbors to understand how this happened so we all can teach our children what went wrong and prepare them. If you are familiar with the Fourth Turning, we can anticipate that the Prophet Generation (e.g. Dr. Martenson's) will need to have forbearance during the coming winter, the Gen X-ers will need to pick up the pieces of shattered debris, and the millennials and Gen Z's will need to set aside the hypocrisy of the elders, awful as it is, and focus on taking in the lessons of their elders mistakes, for they, the Hero generation, will have to rebuild on a sound foundation if a springtime is to emerge in the prime of their lives.

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  • Fri, Jul 10, 2020 - 11:19pm

    #3
    nordicjack

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    Not all bad Chris

    Unfortunately, so long as people are just managing, thing will never change.  I always said to bring about true revolution, we must have things get much worse.  AND they are and will continue , perhaps worse than anyone could have imagined.  ( but not me ) I expect this fully.  The problem is, being disabled, I was unable to prepare myself over the years adequately as I should have for the inevitable.   Others just too busy with everyday grind to take action either.

    Were will find resilience ?  I am hoping here.   Perhaps our attentions should lie not on just how to sustain ourselves.  But how to write and create policy for the new america.  Which I would call the new US contingent government where people who are able and capable of directing and guiding us forward, take actions within the community to restore the US back to a country of prosper.

    If we can find away to protect our families in the coming days, and survive it, I truly believe the future is very bright.   But its not going to happen on its own and it certainly wont happen with the governors that we have been allowing to run wild out of control for decades.

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 5:09am

    #4
    Mohammed Mast

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    Just the beginning.

    It is going to get worse, much much worse, before it gets any better and there is no guarantee it will get better. A look to the South will show what impoverished people under the control of elites look like. A look at history will demonstrate that the vacuum left by collapse opens the door for demagogues to walk in and "make blah blah blah great again" Palestinians dream of peace and prosperity. Syrians just want the bombs to stop. Country after country gives examples of what the international banking cartel is up to.

    Maslow's hierarchy of needs as Chris points out is not static it is a dynamic with no assurance of upward mobility. The US is and has been raped and pillaged. It is what happens at the end of empire. Not always as Britain was able to remain somewhat in control thanks to the Anglo alliance. But that only suited the needs of the cartel.

    It is folly to think any kind of democratic transition will take place to a fair and equitable society. We are on an energy descent and oppressed minorities are now demanding a place at the table with little left on it.

    Just what did you think the end of empire would look like?

    Breaker Morant, "well peter this is what becomes of empire building"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI7KJnRlsS4

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 5:20am

    XBarbarian

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    XBarbarian said:

    well said brother.

    personally, I have little appetite for the hopium peddled by many, the folks incapable of confronting reality. this IS what it looks like, as an empire collapses.

     

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 5:25am

    #6
    XBarbarian

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    #WeAreAllCoalMinersNow

    for years, I've been writing and sharing snippets, articles Like Dr. Martenson's here, trying to share information, help folks turn off the tv, and think.

    mostly on largely deaf years and minds. my own Windmill. I've come to peace with that, mostly. Who am I to suggest I know what actually serves humanity in the long run, the run I can not see, for I am but a sapling in a monsterous forest.

    Ive equated it to W. Va Coal Mine, circa 1900.

    #HostLife - The people have been turned into "hosts" (a food source - rent payers) for the 1% inbred parasites (leeches - rent collectors) by the re-establishment of the "West Virginia Coal Mine Experience"™ (circa 1900).

    By incrementally monopolizing necessities (food, water, shelter, utilities), by debt expansion, and by wage suppression: we now work in their company "mines" (cube farms, whatever), live in their company housing (mortgage), shop in their company store (credit card debt), pay MONOPOLY prices for necessities.

    Literally, cradle to grave slavery to a small collection of "Nanny" Transnational Corporations (all owned at the top by a handful of globalist banksters)

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 6:06am

    Wilco

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    The future looks bright? Really?

    >>> I truly believe the future is very bright.

    What's your reasoning here NordicJack? I know you qualified it with a huge "if" but I'd really like to hear more of what you're thinking. I think Mohammed Mast and XBarbarian have it right - we're porked...Thanks, Wilco

     

     

     

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 8:03am

    nordicjack

    nordicjack

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    Re Bright future

    I think there is a large amount of enlightened people.  There are people like Chris who have spoken about the issues.  and clearly know about the issues.  Why then do things not change?  Because lack of awareness.  AND THE MONEY.    Those with the MONEY end up in control.  Those without have little or no power regardless how enlightened, intelligent, and skilled.   MONEY does not bring about awareness. In fact its the opposite.    Awareness is spreading.  and as things get worse, people search for solutions.   The collapse of American  ( US ) as a world power is inevitable.   History even dictates this.   My assumption is once the current US state is gone, Things can only get better ( it will be a painful decade ) But, that is the nice thing about being at rock bottom.  there is nowhere further to fall.    So, my assumption is relative.   We will see incredibly hard times.. Harder times than our grandparents did in the great depression, harder times than war time ( and we will get some of this as well ) We will see more disease yet.  And plenty more death from many many causes including violence and starvation.

    As I keep telling people, you do not need to be prophetic or psychic to know where we are headed.

    I got into several arguments with people including mainstream journalists about this pandemic and what it meant.  And they all said its just like all the other scares like H1N1, swine flu and others..  I did not caution them and argue with them during those.. as Chris has here.  We knew what we had here with this virus.  We also know what we have with our current financial system and governors.

    My only question is why do the wealthy want to game it so bad that they will cause their own failure. ( history dictates their actions are illogical )   I often wonder how much of this is by design.  I begin to think there are no accidents.. and natural occurrences.  But everything by design. Are we living in a reality or a simulated matrix?

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 8:15am

    T-Storm

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    T-Storm said:

    Chris,

    You are one of the greatest fighters for "right and morality" out there!! You understand so much about the tools and tricks of the elites and how they use green paper to control their servants. Your scientific background further adds to your great insight. I share similar traits, talents, intelligence and ambitions

    We all desire a truly peaceful ending to the self-inflicted madness in the US (and world) today. However, we must all study history and you will realize that this necessary change will not come through peaceful means. As you mentioned in your article, the elites have already won and they will not change their ways. You (and probably too many others) have chosen the "flight" response when facing such strong adversity. I have chosen the alternative path, which history supports. The path of "fight" to take back our rights, freedoms, currency and country is the inevitable one. The social revolution has already started and will only accelerate rapidly now. But everyone must participate and educate others to save our great country and people!! If not for yourselves, then participate to save your children's future or their children's. As the GPR proclaims.....Do not be Deceived, Bribed or Intimidated any longer. GreenPaperRevolution.com

    Thank you Chris. Adam and you and all the rest of the educators and revolutionaries are truly awesome and awe-inspiring.

    -STORM

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 9:13am

    #10

    Andy_in_Hawick

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    The populace continue to vote for inequality

    The trouble is that there are many people who have been infected by the rhetoric of the managers and believe the lies that are being fed to us.

    One of the most worrying trends that I have seen during this pandemic is the increase in gambling. Anyone who buys lottery tickets or participates in sweepstakes like the one that our local radio station runs is voting with their wallet for inequality. Take lots of small amounts from the masses and give one, large, "life-changing" amount to one individual. That is how these schemes are set up and even marketed. This is perpetuating and exacerbating inequality. It seems clear that people like inequality; it's just that they don't like their position on the scale of wealth!

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 9:45am

    #11
    jackfoxy

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    jackfoxy said:

    I assume by this you mean the industry is over capitalized. I work in automation in the O&G industry. What would really be actionable data is this broken down by operating company and field.

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 10:52am

    #12
    Mohammed Mast

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    Book Burning

    Stefan Molyneux has been banned from YT, along with others. Books are still burned. Books are still banned but everyone knows social media YT included is this age's equivalent of books.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leCz0Y5gOQ4

    What follows is a list of prophetic books well worth visiting or revisiting.

    Fahrenheit 451 1953 by Ray Bradbury

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451

    Brave New World 1932 Aldous Huxley

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World

    1984 - pub 1949 George Orwell

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

    Of course these are the classics. There are lots more as listed by ABE books.

    https://www.abebooks.com/books/best-dystopia-books/

    I think by any measure we are in many ways in the dystopian future predicted. Of course if you are white and middle + class this is coming as a shock. Especially so if you are an Amerikaan. It is not so much of a shock to indigenous people and people of color. They have been here for centuries. That said it is getting worse for them, thus protests and riots. Derek Chauvin will be a sacrificial lamb or what we are seeing will look more like your first child's 1st birthday. Amerikaan exceptionalism is crumbling. It may take awhile for the empire to collapse but collapse it will. The things propping it up are military, police, corporate media and the surveillance industry.

    I have said here before corporations are now the pirates of our time, They don't sail the seas, they don't wear eye patches and walk on wooden legs. They wear Armani suits, fly private jets from country to country, sit in boardrooms on top of the largest buildings on the planet. They rape pillage and plunder and live on huge multi million dollar estates behind tall walls with high security. They have bug out escape plans ie Peter Thiel bought New Zealand citizenship and a huge estate on Lake Wanaka on the South Island. He is not alone. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/15/peter-thiel-new-zealand-estate.html

    It is quite clear from this latest pandemic (to anyone paying attention) that while all this is playing out economically and politically eugenics is still in play. The elites have no desire to share what is left of this planet with deplorables. When the dust settles there will be a lot less humanity to deal with. The ones left will be useful idiots who will be more than grateful for whatever they are permitted.

    Questions are clearly rife. Chief among them is " how did it get this way"? Of course the next question is "what to do"? Chris and Adam have devoted years to answering the 2nd question and Pt. 2 is just the latest installment. The following doc by Adam Curtis offers one of the mechanisms for how it got this way. It is 4 hours but quite illuminating and worth the watch.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ3RzGoQC4s&t=273s

    Of course there will be those who think this is quite accidental. There are those who are marginalized who believe this is a planned demolition. My guess is ultimately it really doesn't matter since the populace for all its swagger and bravado about rule of law and constitutional rights has been effectively castrated and neutered. The only mechanism offered for change is electoral politics. Only the completely brain dead true believers think that is a viable option. Just look at the choices in Nov. REALLY???? As has been demonstrated on this site for over a decade "there are no solutions". Solutions only exist for problems. This is a predicament. Predicaments have coping mechanisms , like farms in western Mass., gardens, guns, gold, solar panels, batteries, skills, etc.

    Don't know exactly what the end game will look like but at my age I won't have to endure it for very long. It looks like things are going to get very tribal. That could be a good thing or not. At any rate the institutions and structures that have been built with cheap abundant energy  will likely not be around too much longer. If I were younger I would do what Jim Rogers did get out and learn Mandarin. All the best to everyone. Oh sorry to sugar coat things sometimes I get carried away

     

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 10:57am

    ckessel

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    ckessel said:

    I think you nailed it Xbarbarian!  Now that we have a clear picture of the predicament, it is time to move toward the outcome we desire ..... and this is actually the fun part because there is a lot we can do to improve our situation.

    As an example, I have become a 'wannabe' farmer of sorts over the past 10 years. We have a small group of PPers here who have been working together to improve the various forms of capital. One of our first actions was to form a non-profit which is geared toward 'educational activities' that are about becoming more self reliant both as a community but also as individuals.

    One of our activities is to grow an annual potato patch and this morning about 6:00am I fired up ole Betsy (a 1941 Ford 9N) and hilled the field in about 2 hrs.

    Potato Hilling circa 1940s style

    This tractor cost about an ounce of gold but sure seems worth a lot more after doing hand hilling for a number of years! And here is the 'rube -goldberg' cultivator/hiller we designed and built from misc. parts.

    Anyway, I appreciate your post and at the same time enjoy the disconnect from TPTB managing our slavery style food production/distribution system.

    Coop

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 11:50am

    XBarbarian

    XBarbarian

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    XBarbarian said:

    thanks brother! I celebrate your efforts are sustainability and resilience!

    best of luck, friend!

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 12:25pm

    #15
    planfortomorrow

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    In the 12 years I have been here...

    ...and following and learning I too feel now is the time to really step it up. My Lady retires next August and our home will be finished the day she retires. We have already marked out our second garden and placed a very large 100 by 60 tarp squared up on the grass, full Sun and preparing it for what we believe is the best farming practice. Organic and composting is our plan, no till. We have three bays for composting until we see just how much will be needed each year. We have great well water and surprisingly city water in the middle of nowhere. Our goal is to plan for and put away stores of food to last through the Winter. I have purchased a 20 by 25 greenhouse and will attempt to try and grow many veggies during the Winter. Fresh tomatoes, lettuce, cabbage and things like this so we can put a spread out during the darkest and coldest days. I have a 1 million gallon Pond near, we collect rain water, etc...We have a awesome supply of deer from the back 7 acres where every year it is customary to pull out 4 deer. We will have lambs, chickens, turkeys, pigs and maybe a goat. I'm thinking a cow but just thinking. For all farm animals their lives will exist from early Spring to late Fall of the second year when I will have my nephew process them from his butchering plant on wheels, process them and store in our freezers. Folks, all of this has always been a part of our lives and in living this life of ours this has been our dream.

    We do it all with a spunky and great attitude, it's a labor of love. I wish all of you well, I really do. I hope you are serious though because I have no doubts that Chris and Adam are correct about our future and even if their not, I hope their not, it still doesn't change for Barb and I our reasons for what our plans are. Love you all, I really do and I hope all at least are happy, engaged with their partners, inclusive and respectful. You must have a partner in this and I thank the almighty Lord (whomever that is) for this terrific experience with Barb of life on this incredibly challenging Earth. Bring it all on, we'll fight tooth and nail just for the experience. Peace BOB

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 12:52pm

    #16

    SagerXX

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    Good timing, I suppose

    Day before yesterday I paid cash for a decommissioned Ford E550 passenger bus (25').  Had two mechanic friends check it out, and it's well-broken-in, but sound (9 years old, 160k miles).  Have now parked it on my sweetheart's mother's land (near the garden) and over the next month will strip and retrofit it to be a rolling studio apartment:  bed and desk and storage inside, collapsable deck (fitted to the height of the handicapped lift doors on the side of the bus) will be home to the outdoor kitchen.  We are rough and ready so a solar shower and improvised latrine will do.  4x300W solar panels on the roof and a couple deep cycle marine batteries will give us enough juice on the overnight to run a few simple appliances (small fridge, smoothie blender, charge phones/laptops, play music, etc.).

    We are fortunate to have several possible locations at which we can park the bus, all of which are off-grid (or partially so) properties with food growing (thank god for HI's year-round season), and two of which have streams/springs.

    I guess I will deploy some cash to hire people to do some of the work on the bus, expedite the turnaround on its transformation.  But I am certainly glad to have started looking a month ago for the right vehicle.

    Not much other news, except my son got toilet-trained.  Hallelujah!  And also hallelujah that the Goobers In Charge of the state and local gov are starting to see the light with respect to NOT re-opening our economy and state to tourism.  We've had a very mellow ride so far, pandemic-wise, it would be lovely to keep it that way.

    Now, how to keep all the people dependent on tourism from rioting or starving or whatever.  I expect a serious exodus of the fair weather friend residents and transplants to flee back to the mainland.  Hawai'i could do with a 25% reduction in population before everything goes to hell.

    There's plenty feral deer and pigs and cattle to hunt and eat, and the gardening is spectacular.  Even so, less mouths to feed will cushion what will likely be a pretty hair-raising first 6 months post supply-line collapse (here in the world's most remote landmass)...

    As those who know me might expect, I have extended myself in good faith efforts to make friends and prove my bona fides to the deepest of locals.  Meeting a couple of them for lunch today, taking them some ionic silver.  (Last time it was a quart of moonshine.  <smile>)

    Anyway, that's where my current effort is going.  May fortune smile upon us all!

    VIVA -- Sager

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 2:24pm

    robie robinson

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    You sir, have

    “Settled your mare”, now please find a station in life that requires little or no fossil fuel. Draft animals are the future?

    come visit, and be ready to work!

     

     

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 2:41pm

    #18
    Mohammed Mast

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    Agree robie

    Had a big ol draft stud. Did a lot of work with him. They mow the lawn, fertilize the garden too. You might do a little essay on what it means to " settle your mare" There's a lot of city folk here ya know.

    A friend of mine raised Percherons. Beautiful and scary big.

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 3:15pm

    David Turin

    David Turin

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    We have a Percheron

    A friend of mine raised Percherons. Beautiful and scary big.

    Washington National Cathedral in DC has a Percheron gargoyle sculped by Rick Hart.  You might know his "other" work, Three Servicemen of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial on the mall.

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 4:14pm

    Oliveoilguy

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jun 29 2012

    Posts: 753

    6+

    Remington is a Percheron/thoroughbred cross

    Remington is pictured jumping a 4’ hedge. He wears a #5 shoe (think dinner plate).

    He is a gentile giant weighing about 1500 lbs. transitioning him to farm work is on my wish list, but pretty far down, since life seems like triage every day trying to keep all the essentials together.

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 5:26pm

    #21
    John Magenau

    John Magenau

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    Chris needs to check himself

    I'm only a recent follower of peak prosperity but I think Chris sometimes gets carried away with the doom and gloom. Chris himself will say when one feels their belief structure is being attacked - they become very defensive. I sensed his defensiveness whenever he would address topics like negative results regarding hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) or MMT/Powell.  The strength if his language and some biases would seem come out on these topics for him. Otherwise, a very likeable,  hardworking and thought-provoking individual with good intentions. Some of his advice I've applied to my own life, and for that I'm grateful. That being said we should acknowledge that HCQ may or may not have limited efficiency in early phase symptomatic disease OR prophylactic scenarios. Trust me it is no panacea but nor is it a conspiracy by big pharma. It is the absence of big pharma that has prevented a well conducted trial. Regarding Powell, look at Wolf Rictors site (a Chris's go to). He indicated yesterday FED may be overall selling over the last few weeks, so I think the Money printing has definitally cooled off (for now). My main point is not to critique Chris but encourage the discouraged to be hopeful. The nation, and humanity,  has endured much pain in generations past- wars, famine, pandemics and depressions. It doesn't have to be run away inflation or social upheaval. Maybe it can be the final nail in the coffin of big oil, people moving towards plant based foods, the defeat of Trump and rise of solar and EV that could curb climate change? Let us all hope for peace, resilience and a just down economy for the next few years. And, yes, plant a garden!

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 5:40pm

    Oliveoilguy

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Jun 29 2012

    Posts: 753

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    The HCQ story is complicated

    As someone who has watched the info on HCQ come in to Peak Prosperity over 5 months now I would suggest that you study what has been offered on 100’s of technical posts. The evidence clearly points to efficacy in prophylactic and early viral onset stages.
    That said....I welcome you as a new contributor, and hope you are capable of learning in this environment.

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 5:57pm

    #23
    Mary59

    Mary59

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    The darkness may win a battle but it won't win the War

    Good evening -

    After reading Chris's message this morning, I have become even more determined to fight. So today I spent six hours I didnt have and found new evidence regarding my work on child protection.

    The elite rings involved are going down.  Alot of action today on the Wayfair issue.  It appears someone is talking, not sure.

    This "breakthrough/awakening" -when public- will denounce many of the elite and their corrupted structures.

    Let their fake markets of Babylon crash - their false idol worship go to blazes, let them reveal themselves so that others stop looking up to material gross hoarding of surplus, which is actually against nature anyhow.  My old Mom controls the family's wealth and if the market crashes I will lose about 500K also but I will gladly give that up.  I have no pension and little savings but that is OK.

    I feel awful for all the small and medium businesses going down and suffering but mostly - not always - people who have stocks - are not going to go hungry as are so many in the world already, normally and now even moreso.

    Chris and Adam have been so generous and have led us and have made leaders of us.

    I will give up maybe when I am dead.  Not a minute before.

    Walk with me into the storm and shine the lights that an eternal universe of darkness shall never extinguish.

    For failure is not an option, and it matters that we don't just give up.

     

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 6:00pm

    #24
    pat the rat

    pat the rat

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    bubble

    We here in western new york are living in a bubble, the corona virus is filling the state map from west to east. How long before the virus is back? I do not know but I happy for every day I can get. We all know that honey badger virus don't care. When the wealthy start to die in big numbers, America will do the right thing. It didn't have to be this way but it is.

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 6:28pm

    #25
    Mary59

    Mary59

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    Joined: Feb 09 2020

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    Dedicated to Chris and Adam

    Dedicated to Chris and Adam

    1929 French Bronze Plaque by Raoul Lamourdedieu entitled Sauvetage en mer - Rescue at Sea

    Chris and Adam lead the rescue team to the ship in distress, braving rough seas all around them in the darkness of the storm.

     

    THANK YOU

     

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 8:36pm

    robie robinson

    robie robinson

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    MM

    I have been here(on PP) a long time. Won’t write and essay, my apologies are sincere. I think OOG has met two of my Suffolks. There is a third now

    when my agrarian family entered the depression, my grandfather, who had recently started using tractors, told my father to “settle the mare,” her pregnancy and offspring would insure the future. The rest is up to you.

    husband,father,farmer,optometrist

     

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  • Sat, Jul 11, 2020 - 8:53pm

    #27
    dryam2000

    dryam2000

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    Magenau

    Magenau,

    Chris has very good reason to give the warnings he is  giving.  One can heed the advice or not.  I suggest reviewing the entire Crash Course.  Try not to get lost in minutia like HCQ or how much or little you think the Fed is printing this month.  CV-19 is now a huge problem itself, but also happens to be an accelerator of many major problems that have been brewing in this world for many years.  Society today is highly interrelated and when things start going haywire it’s going to occur at light speed. Choose wisely.

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 1:25am

    #28
    Gerrit de Wit

    Gerrit de Wit

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    america we have problem @ Yahoo

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/america-we-have-a-problem-115714416.html

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 5:00am

    #29

    LesPhelps

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Apr 30 2009

    Posts: 628

    1+

    White hats always triumph.

    As near as I can tell, the idea that good always triumphs over evil is tied with religion.  It may be coupled with the idea that God will insure that good triumphs.

    Perhaps.

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 5:34am

    VTGothic

    VTGothic

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    Ha!

    Well, given enough time the tide always turns...but that works in both directions, hey?

    I do tend to the conviction that evil ultimately defeats itself because it is, by its nature, self-contradictory. That is, chaotic, nihilistic. The big "but" hidden in plain view is, however, that nihilism in all its great and little forms inflicts a lot of harm on the way to its own demise - and it can take a long time to die. Only to be resurrected by some new generation of fools who have forgotten what happens when you touch the stove.

    We live in a time and culture that no longer believes its own stories, therefore no longer believes in its own raison d'etre. Not just in the US, but throughout Western culture and increasingly across the integrated and syncopated globe. And these days too many think justice is found at the sharp end of the guillotine, because no one reads history any longer and everyone is certain "this time will be different."

    Old man Kipling seems more and more sage the further down this well-trod road we lurch, zombified:

    In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
    By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
    But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

    Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
    And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
    That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

    As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
    There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
    That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
    And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

    And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
    When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
    As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
    The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 6:05am

    #31
    Jitiy

    Jitiy

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    Joined: Mar 26 2019

    Posts: 4

    Chicken Little

    Chicken Little likes to walk in the woods. She likes to look at the trees. She likes to smell the flowers. She likes to listen to the birds singing.

    One day while she is walking an acorn falls from a tree, and hits the top of her little head.

    - My, oh, my, the sky is falling. I must run and tell the lion about it, - says Chicken Little and begins to run.

    She runs and runs. By and by she meets the hen.

    - Where are you going? - asks the hen.

    - Oh, Henny Penny, the sky is falling and I am going to the lion to tell him about it.

    - How do you know it? - asks Henny Penny.

    - It hit me on the head, so I know it must be so, - says Chicken Little.

    - Let me go with you! - says Henny Penny. - Run, run.

    So the two run and run until they meet Ducky Lucky.

    - The sky is falling, - says Henny Penny. - We are going to the lion to tell him about it.

    - How do you know that? - asks Ducky Lucky.

    - It hit Chicken Little on the head, - says Henny Penny.

    - May I come with you? - asks Ducky Lucky.

    - Come, - says Henny Penny.

    So all three of them run on and on until they meet Foxey Loxey.

    - Where are you going? - asks Foxey Loxey.

    - The sky is falling and we are going to the lion to tell him about it, - says Ducky Lucky.

    - Do you know where he lives? - asks the fox.

    - I don't, - says Chicken Little.

    - I don't, - says Henny Penny.

    - I don't, - says Ducky Lucky.

    - I do, - says Foxey Loxey. - Come with me and I can show you the way.

    He walks on and on until he comes to his den.

    - Come right in, - says Foxey Loxey.

    They all go in, but they never, never come out again.

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 7:29am

    #32
    RebOrman

    RebOrman

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    Joined: Dec 09 2016

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    13+

    RebOrman said:

    I'm a communitarian living in a libertarian country. While trying to do what I can to prep, I keep bumping up against this central fact. I do not want to live in a world/country that requires I have a gun to shoot people to keep me and mine safe. I won't do it. I can't. To do so would be cutting out my own heart.

    Until now I just ignored this fact, kept living my life and doing my prepping. After this summer watching my city become a war zone of the citizens versus a heavily militarized police (Minneapolis) in 2 days, I see this is something I can no longer ignore. I need to face this issue straight on and make some decisions by making an active choice.

    Mind you, I don't plan to rewire my brain, purchase a few murder guns and move on to the libertarian mindset. I will stick to my values. But I wonder if there are others in this community similarly struggling. I'm new to the PP online community though not new to CM/AT's teachings.  Anyone interested in a convo about this or direct me to those who are?

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 7:50am

    #33
    tbp

    tbp

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    "Elites" have most definitely not "won"... unless you BELIEVE they have

    The elites have not won. They aren't even elites, they're elitists (scumbags who believe themselves above the masses). Some of them may not even be humans.

    We are the elite. We're just mind-controlled to believe we don't have any power. But many of us are taking back control over our own consciousness/life/reality/experience.

    As the denser lower-dimensional service-to-self energies become ever-increasingly polarized toward darkness (negative energy, i.e. that which separates, segregates, pulls apart), the ascending humans who remain in balanced dharma, while we may continue witnessing the destructive parallel world of the service-to-self entities and their mind-controlled NPCs, as we build parallel systems of creative destruction (such as decentralized cryptocurrencies i.e. the separation of money and state), the reality we create will increasingly polarize toward the light (positive energy, i.e. that which constructs, builds up, unites; preserves novelty). Yes, there are two parallel timeline types. As incarnated souls each one of us already chose what type of reality we'd experience. Coronavirus is a major awakening permission slip -- most of the ones that don't wake up now aren't gonna wake up at all (to the corruption in politics, medicine, science, all institutions, but even more importantly, even in the false perception/model of reality we're given as QM discoveries or the meaning thereof has been covered up for 90 years, as shown most eloquently by such pioneering scientists as Dr. Rupert Sheldrake and Dr. Tom Campbell).

    Hell, much of the "educated" population still believes there is no evidence of life beyond the Earth. As our whispering interdimensional ET scientist neighbor Bashar put it:

    "They have one real, and only one real, tactic. And that is manipulating information to the degree where they allow others to believe they're more powerful than they are. So if people buy into the idea that they have more influence than they do, that they're more powerful than they actually are, then suddenly they're perceived and experienced to be more powerful than they are. But that's what they actually do -- they manipulate information to make themselves seem more in control and more powerful than they actually are. But they're not really in control of anything at all; in fact they're panicked that they're not in control, which is why they cover a lot of stuff up." -- Bashar

    And now they're so panicked that they're covering up all contrary information itself, i.e. they are engaged in full-on censorship (and of course election rigging).

    As to the causal mechanism/path by which we may gain control over economics, there is a phenomenal economic reset idea codified as NESARA/GESARA that has been floating around the Internet for some time. Here's some hyperdimensional intel on how this might come about:

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 10:35am

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 637

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    RebOrman Hi

    I have been having that conversation  for over 50 years. My community would get together and discuss preps and best practices. The conversation would always come to self defense and guns. That was pretty much the end of the conversation.

    One of my best friends is a Vietnam vet who was on a PBR (the boat featured in Apocalypse Now. (btw I protested the war and told the draft board face to face I was not going). It took him 20 years before he could bring himself to watch the movie. He told me it was a pretty good description of what it was like. He has told me what it was like to look someone in the eye and kill them. He has not had one full nights sleep w/o nightmares in over 50 years. I have and do own guns. I own them mostly for varmints like copperheads and rattlesnakes. I do not like to take any form of life.

    I think it is very easy for people to get guns and weapons training and sit behind a keyboard and talk about killing someone. I think the reality is something quite different. We all have a "lizard brain" and when it kicks in rational action becomes a distant reality. Self preservation is basic. To be honest I cannot say what I would do in a violent confrontation, but I do acknowledge I may not have complete control rationally. Though some would say to act violently is rational.  That would make "turn the other cheek" completely irrational.

    I can not say either what the long term psychological damage it would cause to take a life. The following video gives a pretty good indication on its effects on people trained to be killers.  https://www.rt.com/shows/on-contact/488241-marines-veteran-suicides-high-rates/. I have spoken with a lot of vets from Iraq and Vietghanistan. The stories are pretty much the same as my Viet. friends.

    I grew up in a rather violent part of the world so I am not ignorant about the subject. I have studiously avoided violence most of my life, but you do raise some deep issues worthy of exploring. My thought as I look at the world is " we can't do better than this?"

    I think there is a spiritual component which is very important. That is something not available for discussion here unfortunately. If you would wish to converse further feel free to PM me. Thanks for your post.

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 10:52am

    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 353

    1+

    nihilism

    I took a look at the broad range of meanings:

    From the free dictionary:

    1. Philosophy The doctrine that nothing actually exists or that existence or values are meaningless.
    2. Relentless negativity or cynicism suggesting an absence of values or beliefs: nihilism in postwar art.
    3.

    a. Political belief or action that advocates or commits violence or terrorism without discernible constructive goals.
    b. also Nihilism A diffuse, revolutionary movement of mid-19th-century Russia that scorned authority and tradition and believed in reason, materialism, and radical change in society and government through terrorism and assassination.
    4. Psychiatry A delusion, experienced in some mental disorders, that the world or one's mind, body, or self does not exist.
    From Wikipedia:

    Nihilism (/ˈnaɪ(h)ɪlɪzəm, ˈniː-/; from Latin: nihil, lit.'nothing')[1] is the philosophical view that all knowledge and values are baseless; that is, all knowledge lacks a certain basis and all values are subjective.[2] Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, in which life is believed to be without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.[3] Moral nihilists assert that morality does not exist at all. Nihilism may also take epistemological, ontological, or metaphysical forms, whereby, respectively, knowledge is not possible, or reality does not actually exist.

    The term is sometimes used in association with anomie to explain the general mood of despair at a perceived pointlessness of existence that one may develop upon realising there are no necessary norms, rules, or laws.

    and

    Kind of like nothing matters, nothing from the current social order has any weight or relevance, so do whatever you want.

    It's interesting that it likely stems from the same kind of "Emperor has no clothes" realization where one gets that the current social norms aren't written in stone and that's good because they don't work anymore. But rather than leading to questions like "How do we live in a better way?" or "How do we reorganize society to be more relevant to our current situation?", nihilists conclude something like, it's all a bunch of B.S. and nothing matters, so just do whatever you want.  Act on your greed with no restraint.  Hurt or kill if it serves you.

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 10:58am

    Quercus bicolor

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: Mar 19 2008

    Posts: 353

    10+

    Chicken Little take 2 (PP style)1

    - How do you know it? - asks Henny Penny.

    - It hit me on the head, so I know it must be so, - says Chicken Little.

    - How do you know it was the sky that hit you on the head? - says Henny Penny

    - It had to be the sky. What else could it be? - says Chicken Little.

    - Where were you when it hit?  - Says Henny Penny

    - Under an oak tree.  Says Chicken Little.

    - It was probably an acorn, especially since I still see the sky up there. - says Henny Penny.

    Chicken Little then has the choice of letting the data inform her. Of course if chicken little is invested in her belief, the backfire effect could prompt her to continue on the path to Foxy Loxy's lair, especially if Ducky Lucky agrees with her.

     

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 11:18am

    #37
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 637

    7+

    Marshall McLuhan

    “Only the small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret by public incredulity.” - Marshall McLuhan

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 11:44am

    sand_puppy

    Status: Platinum Member

    Joined: Apr 13 2011

    Posts: 2368

    9+

    Willingness to Meet Violence with Violence.

    I am aware of 2 general belief structures that consciously decide to avoid violence.

    1.  People who believe that violence will not be necessary.  (Several slight variations:  A) Others will not enslave, beat, rape, kill, kidnap me or my family.  B)  Things won't get that bad.  C) The inherent goodness in people will prevent others from behaving in those terrible ways.  D) God, or spiritual factors, will protect me.  E) Believing that they have excellent skills at situational awareness, street smarts --conflict resolution, escape and evasion and will be able to skate out of dangerous situations.)

    2.  Choice to not meet violence with violence.   This is a decision to die, be kidnapped, raped, bludgeoned or beaten and see the same done to family and friends without violent response, for spiritual reasons.

    Are there others?

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 12:54pm

    #39

    Jim H

    Status: Bronze Member

    Joined: Jun 08 2009

    Posts: 1173

    7+

    What is OK to discuss here?

    MMast said,

    I think there is a spiritual component which is very important. That is something not available for discussion here unfortunately.

    I take a broader view of what we can and can't discuss.  I consider arguing religious dogma both uninteresting as well as outside of the guidelines.  Discussion of a more general, "spirituality", including the question of whether we are in fact spiritual, or rather merely biological beings, is both nuanced, and important.

    tbp said,

    As the denser lower-dimensional service-to-self energies become ever-increasingly polarized toward darkness (negative energy, i.e. that which separates, segregates, pulls apart), the ascending humans who remain in balanced dharma, while we may continue witnessing the destructive parallel world of the service-to-self entities and their mind-controlled NPCs, as we build parallel systems of creative destruction (such as decentralized cryptocurrencies i.e. the separation of money and state), the reality we create will increasingly polarize toward the light (positive energy, i.e. that which constructs, builds up, unites; preserves novelty).

    This is absolutely fascinating and thought provoking analysis to me.  Is this against the guidelines?  I don't think so, but then again I have not taken my junior moderator training yet.  I don't have to agree with every concept tbp throws out to appreciate his or her efforts at enlightenment.  I have said for years that we are in a war that is spiritual in nature.  I have family members that will not allow my speech in their presence and tbp's use of the term, "NPC's" exactly describes them.  It's sad but true.  If you don't know the term look it up please.

    So are we biological or are we more than that?  I have been interested in this question since my youth.  There is a whole genre of accounts of NDE's, and there are many examples of people who are clinically dead and seem to be able to leave their bodies and see things happening around them from a third party view.  What is that about? Like any investigation... these accounts are only one kind of data that can be used in dot connecting.

    What about people who feel like they have received communications from the deceased?  5-6 years ago one of the best friends of an old high school friend of mine died tragically at home while pulling a shotgun out of a barrel of guns - it was in a, "sock" and the guy should have known better as he was an ex-marine and a huge gun owner/range instructor.  The gun was loaded and it went off right into his chest.  His wife found him that way and immediately called my friend to help secure the house as there was all kinds of ATF near-contraband there.  One lesson here is to never let your guard down on gun safety, no matter how experienced you are.. treat every gun as if it's loaded.

    But there's another message that came through.  The deceased ran a heating/cooling business and he had in the past told my friend that the electronics controller unit on his furnace was a type that is prone to failure.  After the death, the hot water at my friend's house went out - he went out to investigate (the basement was only accessible from outside) and he found that the electronics unit was flashing some kind of fault.  He reset the unit and it worked again.  Later on the unit faulted a second time... he reset it again and the issue resolved and did not occur again.  My friend felt that this was so very specific that it could have only been a communication.

    Is there evidence that our consciousness has extended interaction with the universe, at least while we are living?  Absolutely - you just have to know where to find it.  I have always been attracted to the intersection between science (quantum physics) and spirituality.  Dean Radin has been a pioneer working for many years at this intersection and what he has documented is really astounding.  He has shown over and over again, through differing experiments, that the human mind/consciousness does in fact have the ability to interact with the fabric of the universe at the quantum level, much as the earliest commentators on the double slit experiment thought (i.e. that the observer was collapsing the wave function).  While most materialist physicists of today adhere to convoluted multiverse theories to make the math work and take our consciousness out of the equation, Radin has shown time and time again that "modern" physics is wrong on this account.

    So the question is, if the human consciousness can affect the entanglement of photons, can the soul of a deceased person signal a friend that their soul is now flying free through a tiny electrical signal induced into a physical device like a furnace controller?  Can we talk about that here?  I think we can.

    The video link below is set to begin where Dean Radin reviews experiments showing how the human mind can affect external quantum events;

     

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 2:01pm

    robie robinson

    robie robinson

    Status: Gold Member

    Joined: Aug 25 2009

    Posts: 1019

    4+

    Jim H

    I am, as the most prepared person I know, to embark on a battle. It is ‘tween C10H14N2, C2H5OH, and my well being. I have lost 30lbs in the last year and exercise daily thru farm work and cardiopulmonary work, as OOG knows rural America moves on diesel fuel and OH. All the positive thoughts and “prayers” are appreciated.

    husband of a wonderful partner,father to great children,farmer of loved and husbanded land,,,,,,oh an a fair optometrist

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 2:05pm

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

    Status: Silver Member

    Joined: May 17 2017

    Posts: 637

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    Hi Jim

    You can speak about whatever you wish. You know where I stand on that. Unfortunately there is a rather large cohort of people who do not wish to engage here on the topic. I have seen it demonstrated numerous times. The owners of this site avoid it . It has nothing to do with the three E's . It cannot be quantified, datafied reduced to a chart or proven.

    For me the spiritual component is the overwhelmingly largest component of life, but it is entirely personal. Part of my spiritual upaya is karma yoga which is why I engage here at all.

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 2:41pm

    #42
    cicerone

    cicerone

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    Joined: Sep 22 2019

    Posts: 22

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    Hope?

    If there's truly no hope for these United States, and we're simply in decline (Roman Empire style), I see little long term reward for resilience, because it amounts to throwing good money after bad, at least in the span of our lifetimes, no matter how carefully we prepare. For example, I'm sure there are many resilient people in South Africa (of all races) but I'm also sure many of them would/did trade in their "resilience" for a passport to a more coherent and functional nation state.

    Now, some (i.e. PP) may say just move to the country, away from the corrupt cities and everything will be fine once you have a self sufficient homestead. All fine and good, but the history of nations shows that that country/city are interdependent. The whole thing has to work or nothing works. See: Argentina, Ukraine, Venezuela, etc. Note these countries had some of the most blessed geography, natural resources and human capital in the world. But in the end it didn't matter. Politics trumped everything.

    Now, if this is just another Fourth Turning, and we just need to prepare to get through to better times on the other side... That's my dream scenario and I think it's still very possible. It's my hopeful plan A.

    However, if any of the first 2 scenarios are probable, you have to ask yourself: what's your Plan B country? Plan C? Have you even researched immigration to other countries? Are you taking steps to achieve dual citizenship? I have and... it's not easy/cheap/fast if you want to do it legally.

     

     

     

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 3:54pm

    Mots

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    Hope and history of nations shows that that country/city are interdependent. The whole thing has to work or nothing works. See: Argentina, Ukraine, Venezuela, etc.

    Cicerone:
    You raise an important and insufficiently explored point about geography and where civilization flourishes during or after a collapse.  This is an important issue because reasonable people need to get their wazoos out of the matrix and find a resilient community immediately, if not sooner (or are seriously thinking this way, and some of us have started years ago)  If it is not possible to avoid the collapse, then what is the point?- seems to be your message.  But your examples are land locked nations that had no chance to be resilient in the first place (Venezuala etc.)  You did NOT consider the city states of Singapore, Malaysia or Iceland (which seems to have figured things out very early) and other places such as Holland during its time, the northern Italian city states, the American 13 colonies in an era of relative isolation etc.

    I disagree generally with your conclusary statements regarding "history of nations shows" that it is not possible to escape a collapse because of "interdependent" nature of things.
    Instead history is full of examples (which are mostly ignored in our history classes) of successful resilient communities and entire countries.  BUT these are successful in large part due to geographic isolation.  The best example is the Japan Islands between 1625 and 1850 (the "Edo Period") where a complete "country" developed a much higher civilization than existed in Europe up till then and was based on energy/food/resource independence.  Isolation allowed a high standard of living.  For example, that entire "nation" of 20-30 million people during their entire existence never even had the black death.  Their biggest problem was the development of a very intricate social system and they evolved a culture of shunning and non-cooperation with central authority figures in order to deal with the sociopath problem.  (they developed tools to limit growth of sociopaths at the local level)  There are many other examples, but resilience/sustainability must be combined with isolation or remoteness.  Venezuela is not a good example of this.

    Even the collapse of Rome was followed by long periods of resilient community popularity where reasonable people figured out how to preserve and enjoy elements of the lost culture.  Many communities were built in remote regions but our history classes ignore such things because they did not involve large armies killing each other.  My region of Japan (inner islands/pirates etc.) has no formal history because not enough people died to make a footnote in a history text.  But our entire understanding of pre-Roman Greek philosophy for example is a result of a resilient community in Ireland that kept itself out of the darkness via resilient living and carefully copying ancient texts. Many successful resilient communities have existed and are alluded to but not a central topic of history books because not enough blood was spilled.

    There is no question in my mind that efforts to build resilient communities such as CM's Massachusetts new property and associated group can and will be the most important thing going for humanity in general.  Every person should find a place that is hard to "get at" either physically or spiritually. (ie. a place  that the sociopaths who are oozing out of the framework presently either ignore (because we are stupid, poor dirt farmers) or cant deal with geographically due to energy costs (an island in the Pacific, Iceland, a community in Siberia).
    I am responding to your good comments because this topic is very important and I want to get more information .  Does anyone know of a single book or source of information of geographic communities that were built after/during Roman collapse for example?  I find references to such in larger tomes but can find no research/description of this subject per se.   Fortunately for me a 200 year history of a 20-30 million member advanced resilient community (which was ignored in all of my history courses) exists as one example because the Japan Islands group was able to write their own history books.  There is a good book on the Irish monastery that I mention.  But many others existed.  Someone needs to review this larger topic and write a book on this.  I would be happy to join you, if you take the initiative............

    Again CM's efforts in Massachusetts is a shining light.  I am on a small island and our future has never been as bright as it is now.  We have young families moving here from the big cities and bringing skills with them.   Other small farmers in this small-farmer country are seeing their businesses grow dramatically now.

    A resilient community designed/built/operated by rational thinkers who respond to logic (such as engineers or scientist-thinking of CM here) could actually be considered the next step in the development of human civilization.   Such thing is worth spending all your time/money on and even (at some point) dying for.  These new resilient communities have been generated successfully before and likely will propel humanity to  a new golden age.

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 4:27pm

    #44
    Injinear

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    prozac and babchi seeds as remedy

    prozac was found to reduce viral loads in vitro by 2 orders of magnitude at normal dosage.  however other SSRIs tested did not have this effect.  also south korea gave babchi seed extract to patients with SC2 and it significantly improved outcomes.  babch seed is an old aruvedic remedy.. available over the counter in europe.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.14.150490v1

    https://doi.org/10.1016/j.antiviral.2020.104781

    https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200616/Antidepressant-fluoxetine-(Prozac)-suppresses-replication-of-SARS-CoV-2.aspx

    https://www.firstpost.com/india/covid-19-treatment-german-researchers-say-anti-depressant-fluoxetine-can-reduce-viral-replication-in-coronavirus-patients-8485301.html

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 5:57pm

    Doug

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    Doug said:

    Jim, I don't wish to engage in questions of spiritualism, magic, little green men or quantum anything.  I have only seen one thing in my life that has never been explained to my satisfaction.  My stepmother could raise tables.  This falls into the category of telekinesis I guess.  I suspect that whatever was going on there was not particularly mystical or spiritual.  In fact, I suspect that if we could figure it out, it is probably common as dirt.

    When my stepmother was a young woman she was approached by an Asian woman who told her that she (stepmother) had this ability.  My guess is that the power is rare, but not spooky.

    Raising tables was something she did at parties or at random when there were enough people around with an interest in seeing it.

    The set up was that my stepmother would sit at the end of a table, any table.  People would sit around the two adjacent sides of the table, leaving the opposite end open.  Everyone would rest their hands on the table palms down.  My stepmother would then start commanding the table to rise.  Soon afterward the opposite end of the table would rise off the floor.  She could get it up on one leg too.

    Then she asked the participants if they had questions they would like answered, not including questions about death.  She would set up the rules: tap once for yes, twice for no, that sort of thing.  She could get it to spell out answers, but that usually took too long because the table would tap out the letters, 1 for A, 2 for B, etc.

    After witnessing this many times and having a lifetime to think about it, I have concluded that she was unconsciously controlling the answers because they always seemed to be answers that she would give if she were having a chat with friends.  And, the answers would never hurt a person's feelings.  That was her nature.  Also, the tables were never particularly right in the answers.  I think usually they were what the asker wanted to hear.

    At any rate, I know the phenomenon was real because I lived with her and she was a painfully honest person.  She would do it spontaneously when she had no time or equipment to rig something up.  Besides, the most she ever carried was her purse.  No place to conceal equipment necessary to lift large heavy, usually dining room tables.

    At any rate, I've always wondered what the force is that allows such things.

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 6:12pm

    #46
    oclisa

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    Doom and Gloom, maybe.

    "But only a single $1200 stimulus check has been sent to the poorest of American families." Ummm....no.

    People who lost their jobs, even 1009 contractors who would normally not be eligible for unemployment compensation, are receiving not only their state's unemployment compensation but an additional $2400 a month from the federal government. Studies indicate that up to 20% of recipients are actually making more on unemployment than they did when employed and a majority are making just as much as they did while employed. That in addition to the CAREs money they might have received. The unemployment benefits will likely be extended and chances are good that everyone under a certain income level (this time likely a bit lower than the $99K income in the first round, which Chris describes as the poorest of Americans...seriously $99K income is the poorest of Americans?) will be receiving another stimulus check from the government. Furthermore, the federal government has implemented rental and mortgage help of various kinds to those who need it. So even if you still have your job and make under $99K, you got free money from the govt. If you were unfortunate and lost your job, you are getting much more! This is not to say that these measures will save us; they may only stave off a reckoning.
    My point is: the doom and gloom in this post mimics the doom and gloom we got on this site post 2008. I bought it hook, line, and sinker last time. Not so fast this time. I learned that the Fed has unlimited magic tricks. In my understanding, the Fed can pull this off as long as there is trust in the dollar and economy. I don't have a crystal ball so I have no idea how long that will last. No one knows when the Fed will run out of magic tricks (or the tricks will no longer work) and it a conceit to proclaim this knowledge.
    Now as to the realities on the ground. I agree many in this country sense that the system is rigged and the elites are the recipients of a rigged system. But, there's a lot to unpack there as the outcomes are nuanced. For example, I am willing to bet that many of those protesters are able to protest because they are unemployed BUT receiving checks from the government. The news media are driving certain narratives….I just wonder how it is that we suddenly have a lot of starving people when anyone who lost their income can easily apply for and get unemployment PLUS $600/week. (I, personally, am not drawing COVID unemployment but I have talked to enough people that have told me how easy it is to get.) If these people were food insecure before COVID, they are probably food insecure now because they didn't have a job when COVID hit.
    This also explains to me why I am hearing from my friends and family that the tourist spots are packed. My friend who owns a hotel and restaurant on the beach has done double the business this summer. Another friend who has a resort on the East Coast, same report. My brother has Airbnb's and he has never been so fully booked. The same was reported by my friend who has several Airbnb's. We're not talking about tourist spots for the rich, these are just your every day, middle-class type of vacation facilities. At first it confused me. Then I thought it through. If you temporarily or permanently lost your job during the pandemic, the government is giving you MUCH more than $1200. The lockdown drove you and the kids crazy; you’re not working but still getting money deposited in your bank account. Load up the kids and road trip to the nearest tourist destination.
    As for real estate. I pay very close attention to two real estate markets: Austin Texas and Los Angeles. I have seen nothing but a hot seller’s market where houses are flying off the shelf. As a personal anecdote, my dad just sold his $1M + house that is in an area of Austin where houses usually stay on the market for months. He had two full-price offers within a week of listing it and closed in less than a month. Maybe LA and Austin are anomalies, but at this point, I don't see the move out of urban real estate.
    I have tried to make sense of all this. A few things stand out for me. The economy will almost certainly be propped up (and people will continue to receive money from the federal government) until at least the election. Most people sense that the system is corrupt, but they don't really understand the Fed's role in this. That is very complicated and most people aren’t going to dig that deep. The "elites" and the media are all too happy to turn everyone's attention to the problem of white privilege as the culprit.

    Many years ago when I frequented this site, I started to question the wisdom I received here. My questioning comments were pilloried enough that I just checked out of the website. (It felt a bit cultish.) With COVID, I happened upon the site again and I think Chris offers a lot of interesting and good information. And I believe Chris is sincere. But this post reminds me of why I decided the site did not contribute to my rational sensemaking.

    Will this come tumbling down? Yep, someday - I know not when, but I won’t be surprised if it doesn’t happen in my lifetime. In the meantime, I am going to keep my eyes and ears open, but I am not going to "brace for impact." Been there, done that.

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 6:58pm

    #47
    cicerone

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    Hopeful?

    @Mots:

    Thanks for the counterpoints. I hadn't thought of Japan. Edo Japan is certainly an inspiration. Ireland as a beacon during the Dark Ages is also something of a model. Both islands, obviously.

    The other examples I'm not so keen on. After Rome fell, the remaining residents of the Italian peninsula endured centuries of rape and pillage by and between barbarians vying for control. It took nearly 1000 years for the city states, founded by said barbarians (e.g. The Lombards) to stand on their own and develop coherent cultural identities that people were willing to die for. They were successful because the fortified city offered protection and strength in numbers. Nonetheless, after the Renaissance, the city states were overrun and carved up by France, Spain and Austria until nationhood came in the 1800s.

    In other words, if a regular Giuseppe could, in year 400, peer into the future, he'd probably jump on a boat to Byzantium rather than run to the hills of Tuscany and plant a garden. That's certainly what the "smart money" did and "Rome" lived on for another 1000 years because of them.

    As for places like Holland, Singapore, etc. these kind of small trade dependent nations only thrive in a peaceful environment between their large neighbors. As for Argentina and Venezuela, both are countries that have abundant natural resources, seaports and every natural reason to be successful and self sufficient, but yet, they're crappy unsafe places to live because of internal politics, whether you live in the country or the city. Well, Argentina isn't Venezuela level of course. Malbec, steaks and beautiful women. They do know how to live! Certainly some lessons on how to collapse with style!

    Anyhoo, I guess my point is that I have a hard time finding examples of small scale homesteads thriving when, just a 100 miles away, there is an urban collapse scenario. Perhaps, like the Swiss, we can carve out an isolated mountain republic that will secede from the US proper. I cringe a bit, but you can't knock what the Mormons have accomplished in the Utah high desert.

    The historical lesson I'm drawing here is that there's strength in numbers. Strength in culture. Strength in well run cities and armies. And yes, strength in geographical isolation, self sufficient agriculture, etc. But unless you're talking about a temporoary soft collapse (e.g. another Great Depression), none of these lessons point to tiny, isolated, car dependent cities in Western Mass being a great strategy long term. Just saying...

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 6:59pm

    Mohammed Mast

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    cicerone

    You raise some interesting points and questions.

    First you ask if "there is no hope for these United States"? The US obviously is a political construct. All political constructs will eventually end. That is an indisputable fact. If you have a vested interest in this particular political construct I could see why one would be concerned with its continued existence. Of course citizens of the US have for centuries enjoyed the fruits of empire. It is a very seductive state of being. It is well to remember this political construct was born on land stolen from indigenous people who were murdered and incarcerated  on gulags. It was built by slaves who were brought here in chains. The descendants of those people are now asking for their piece of the pie. Thus we are experiencing an increase in violence and protests. We see that because clearly there is no other recourse. Voting is a complete joke.

    I find it very interesting that you mention PPer's moving to the country. That seems to be a solution to the dilemma. There are two aspects to your query and points. One is the macro the other the micro. The OP is about the macro and a number of responses have to do with the micro, ie. what individuals are doing. I can assure you that moving to the country is not a panacea. I have lived in the country for 50 years in different states. It presents another set of issues.

    So the question is about hope. Is it in regards to the political entity or the people? Is it about hope that things will be the "way they were"?

    My position is I am a citizen of the universe who has been born under the rule of a particular mafia known as the US. Not identifying as a citizen has enabled me to look at the world through a different lens. I have more flexibility  in where I choose to live and a host of other choices.

    The other question that comes to mind is timing. Is this a slow decline or a rapid collapse? As stated SC2 has accelerated events. Also relations with other countries especially China are as bad as they have ever been.

    Finding a bugout country is certainly an option but with flexibility comes options. One member I am friends with has a boat. I find that a workable solution. When I was in Mexico I met a couple who had a "homestead sailboat" complete with chickens, tomato plants, solar panels and a solar distiller. I know one thing for certain being able to think outside the box is a very  valuable talent. Here is an example.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5pZ7uR6v8c

    Chris Hedges has explored the collapse of the US, here is his take.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csI8JLJ15Ak

    Ironically what comes to mind is the Chinese curse, " May you live in interesting times"

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 7:07pm

    VTGothic

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    Good thoughts, Mots. Two scholars whose tangential work might interest you. And some reflections on yours.

    1. The Yale social scientist James C. Scott has written a number of books focused around his combined respect for agrarian societies and early non-state organization (which he categorizes within the designation "anarchism"). You might find it interesting to review some of his effort to reconstruct the outlines of early non-state societies in upland China ("The Art of Not Being Governed: an anarchist history of upland southeast Asia"), and his critique of state efforts to make life better ("Seeing Like a State: how certain schemes to improve the human condition have failed"). The first goes to the importance of being able to isolate geographically that you mention - but something I maintain is not really possible now. Even in your situation the fact remains that the Japanese central government could exert control whenever it chooses, which was not true for early state governments. They could not militarily enter remote, difficult terrain with either the tools to let them dominate local resistance or the strength to fight upon arrival. (This is why the early Hebrews were "mountain people," and why the Berbers lived in tents in the deep desert. It is also behind Ayn Rand's visionary Gault's Gulch.) Those days are gone; there is no place on the globe where a state cannot extend its reach efficiently and with overwhelming force. (Relatedly, Scott has also written on forms of peasant resistance, and the art of resistance in situations of domination.)

    In my opinion, if "Atlas" wants to "shrug" in the modern world he must do so by withdrawing from the market economy and strive to live inside some state's borders as a non-participant. Even that cannot be done 100%. The "Grey Man" approach becomes useful here, too.

    The US may not be the best place to weather the coming storm, but the simple fact is that we do not know how each country will respond to the breakdown of our interconnected international economy. You plant your personal flag somewhere and strive to build the 8 forms of capital in whatever time remains. Then kiss your butt and pray. I also think the average American is very decent and in hard times we will largely pull together. In time, too, our cultural DNA will assert itself, leading to a restoration of individual liberty and sound market principles, undertaken with greater sobriety. In my post-apocalypse Utopia those who want the right to appropriate commons resources will be responsible to also help provision them - that's what produces frugality and sustainability. We just need to weather the interval between "now" and "then." And that's what arks are for.

    2. Political economist Elinor Ostrom took an economist's view on governing, especially at the very local level, with an interest in evaluating shared governing of the commons. In "Governing the Commons: the evolution of institutions for collective action," she uses a half dozen past and current examples of self-governance by very local groups to identify what is essential to successful self-governing communities. Her cases involve several vertical levels, with increasing complexity and sanctioning authority. Along the way, she also visits the benefits and drawbacks of outside recognition by state powers or their regional delegates. You might enjoy reading about successful very local self-governing groups. One Spanish group has been going over 500 years; another, in the mountains of Switzerland, has almost as storied a past.

    A primary lesson I drew from her work is that those with rights to appropriate a common resource must also have responsibility to provision that resource, and must be held accountable by the community for following the community's rules about both sides of the equation. This, in my opinion, points to a primary problem with cities, and indicates why larger cities are necessarily more fascist (government intervention in private enterprise), statist (strong power to regulate interpersonal and personal expression), and colonial (appropriating resources from the periphery to sustain the center without participation in the provisioning those resources) in orientation.

    I'd almost argue that real personal freedom is not possible to the urbanite, only to the agrarian journeyman; that what we mean by "liberty" in our modern, urbanized culture is what any agrarian philosopher of even just 100 years ago would label "license" because today those who take have no obligation or expectation to return in kind and quantity.  The farmer of yesteryear understood you can't do that or you'll upset the balance of nature - including moral nature. But in the city with its 24/7 culture of superfluous consumption and profligate waste there is no conception of  obligation or (moral) duty to build up the resource one appropriates and lightly tosses into the gutter.

    The citified society is "the brave new world" where "all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins" (see comment #30). It's living against "nature's laws" and "nature's God" -- something our farmer founders understood that we don't (we've banished both nature and her God from the cityscape and the culture it spawns), but which if we did would spotlight why our current way is failing.

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 7:51pm

    Mots

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    arger cities are necessarily more fascist (government intervention in private enterprise), statist (strong power to regulate interpersonal and personal expression), and colonial (appropriating resources from the periphery to sustain the center

    Thank you VT

    I definitely have to look up your references.
    I wonder how the mennonites Pennsylvania/Dutch or whatever you call them, fit in regarding your comments in paragraph 2.
    Very astute observation about why cities are fascist.   I would want to consider this phenomenon when creating obligations at the rural level as well.  A very good point.

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  • Sun, Jul 12, 2020 - 8:07pm

    #51

    000

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    The End is Ney, and all the world a stage, my fault

    By my light, Mr. Martenson has laid out our predicament pretty well. I'm most grateful for his letting us in on the (unending) journey to understand it, although I don't really understand being resilient in a predicament (there is no way out). I guess I'm one of those evil good-for-nothing boomers (put man on the Moon, computers, organic natural foods, meditation, internet, every imaginable flavor of iced cream, MIND CONTROL, moohahaha!) that have screwed up the world. I understand how you feel, haven't been much of a fan either (BTW: Richard Millhouse Nixon was part of the Greatest Generation, "turning" somewhere between 2nd and 3rd on a stolen turn, but definitely Right-wing'n). You want to throw me into a box and send me over a cliff. OK, OK! But before you do you might want to hold on to the box because your children might need it. No matter which way they are "turning". Can we at least sing together before my final flight? "Highway 61, Revisited"

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 6:14am

    Mohammed Mast

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    God said to Abraham

    Next time you see me  comin you better run.

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 6:16am

    Mohammed Mast

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    VT

    Great post.

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 10:09am

    #54
    thesecuritygirl

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    what's the dosage for HCQ, Azithro, Zinc???

    guys, I found these two dosage protocols... which are for prophilaxis and which are for anti-viral... who knows?

    Drug: Hydroxychloroquine

    Hydroxychloroquine 400mg twice a day (BID) on day 1, followed by 200mg BID for days 2-5

    Drug: Azithromycin

    Azithromycin 500mg on day 1, followed by 250mg once daily for days 2-5

    Drug: Zinc Sulfate

    Zinc sulfate 220mg once daily for 5 days

    Experimental: Experimental Arm 2

    Hydroxychloroquine

     

    Zinc sulfate

    Drug: Hydroxychloroquine

    Hydroxychloroquine 400mg twice a day (BID) on day 1, followed by 200mg BID for days 2-5

    Drug: Zinc Sulfate

    Zinc sulfate 220mg once daily for 5 days

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 10:12am

    #55
    thesecuritygirl

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    hcq script

    I have been searching in the US for months... where can I get access to this??

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 10:36am

    Mohammed Mast

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    Security Girl

    The dosages you posted are for treatment not for prophylaxis.

    It is to the best of my understanding that 400mg once a week is sufficient for prophylaxis. It has a half life of 40 days in the body. No one knows since there are no studies. This is NOT medical advice

    You cannot get a script for HCQ for off label use. You can get a script for Lupus, Rheumatoid arthritis and a few other dermatological uses. You can also get one for malaria prevention if you are traveling or living in a place where there is a risk of malaria.

    I doubt any doctor at this time is going to prescribe it if you don't have a previous history of need. Your options are ordering online from India (search the forums for a thread posted by Peggy about that) Or you can get Chloroquine from River Pharmacy in Canada online w/o a script. You cannot get the HCQ from them.

    Option 2 is get some Ivermectin. It is an anti parasitical that has a very good anti viral profile. It is a one time treatment. See my post Ivermectin in Peru. Chris was supposed to post a video on it but has not as of yet.

    Good Luck

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 10:41am

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Securitygirl

    BTW I highly recommend you check with your physician before you take HCQ. You need to get an ECG to make sure you are not at risk of cardiac issues. HCQ does have contraindications and side effects.

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 10:44am

    #58
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    A Serious Message from the President

    https://news.yahoo.com/trump-identifies-another-hoax-the-coronavirus-152649383.html

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 11:02am

    MarkM

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    Hoax

    The title of the article is disingenuous. I couldn't find anywhere in it that the president called the virus a hoax. Correct me if I am wrong.

    This is not in support of Trump, I am just tired of manipulative headlines.

    ...and, yes, plenty of lies have been told during this entire fiasco.

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 11:24am

    RandomMike

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    RandomMike said:

    Yes I agree, in the beginning he called the Democrats portrayal of the virus as a hoax, he didn't directly say the virus was a hoax. He is very careful with his wording, and of course thrives on the attention it gets, probably thinking about that attention while he is calculating what to say. IMHO.

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 1:18pm

    #61
    Sparky1

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    Cali Gov. rolls-back reopening plans; closures statewide for indoor operations

    Additional restrictions on 80% of counties due to increase in CV-19 cases, hospitalizations, deaths. Effective immediately: https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/07/13/watch-california-gov-gavin-newsom-on-states-response-to-covid-19-pandemic-july-13/

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 2:28pm

    jbuck

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    jbuck said:

    I find this a really engaging thread - so many things  I'd like to respond to/add - I'll start with reasons to avoid violence.  Sandpuppy's second reason starts off like mine.  I make a decision to avoid violence for spiritual reasons (specifically a belief in Karma but not everyone here is interested so I won't delve into that point).

    However, in my vocabulary, "avoid" does not mean "never engage in."  I would call myself a peacenik but not a pacifist.  For example, I trained in Taekwondo for some years.  I had a great teacher of the "we learn to fight so we don't have to" school of thought.

    It has nothing whatsoever to do with a willingness "to die, be kidnapped, raped, bludgeoned or beaten and see the same done to family and friends without violent response, for spiritual reasons."  As someone else pointed out, self preservation is basic.  I'm not going seek to create that kind of "Karmic debt" (a poor but sufficient term here) but if it comes my way, I will deal with it.  That's not a boast.  I might deal with it by running away.  I have no way of knowing for sure until faced with such a situation.

    If I did end up taking a life, I would certainly have a very hard time integrating that experience, as MM wrote about regarding his vet friends.

    re: communitarian vs libertarian - in my mind, these are not mutually exclusive. I started with Mutual Aid by Kropotkin.  In the US, most people understand "libertarian" to mean something like "right-wing gun nut" and/or "rugged individual."  I am none of those things.  I philosophically tend to the libertarian left but I will admit, for me that's more aspirational than practical and I have no truck with the so-called "anarchists" recently on display in the media.  Chaos is not anarchy.  Anarchy does not mean "without order", "without leaders", or "without rules".  It means "without rulers".  It has nothing to do with wanton destruction.  The non-aggression principle is important to me (and I am reflective about the disagreements over same).  That certainly does not preclude self defense.  I know of mutual aid societies that are pretty well organized on that front.

    re: resilience - This discussion made me think of Dimitri Orlov's book, Communities that Abide.  He's not an economist nor a historian but I have found his writing interesting and useful.  I can't put my hands on it so I've probably lent it to someone.  I can't remember all of the case studies but I know he examined the Roma and Anabaptist groups like the Amish and the Hutterites.  (He is also designing and plans to produce a "houseboat that sails" for exactly the reasons discussed here - I live a mile above sea level so I'll have to find someone other than the sea gypsies to take up with).

    Also, I do not believe the image of 1000 years of non-stop raiding, rape and pillage following the fall of Rome comports with the modern understanding of history.  Did such things happen? yes, quite a lot of it went on.  Were there places and periods where/when they did not happen?  Apparently so.  I understand there were some significant periods of time when villagers were able to go about their business.  I know some really horrible stuff went on too but I think the 20th century was probably worse in terms of atrocities toward humanity.  A better understanding of this period of history (and world history, not just European history) would serve us all well.  I'm a math and engineering teacher so not exactly the go-to on such topics.

    Thanks to everyone for all the interesting things to think and read about.

    jeff

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 4:52pm

    Mots

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    dimitry Orlov's "Communities that Abide"

    Jbuck, thank you for the reference to Orlov's book.  I am reading this now and 1/2 the way through (the main portion comprises two large chapters by him and by Peter Kropotkin extolling the virtues of "communism" and the need for each individual to share everything of value (income, tools, property) except personal effects (like a comb, clothing etc).  The term "communities that abide" is defined as a community that exists beyond the life of the founders.   Orlov proclaims that the number one condition for success is that you must give up all property rights, including rights to fruits of your own labor to the collective (maximum Dunbar size of 150) in order for the community to succeed.  This is the most important characteristic of a successful group.   Secondly, a prime focus of the successful community seems to be having a system to keep the later generations from wanting to run away or if they do run away to come back.  In this respect they recommend separate language customs and a strong sense of in-group vs out group....
    The Gypsies are presented as one type of successful community.

    I note that they purposely left out monastic communities from their purview.  This is important to me for two reasons.  One, I dont like the type of community that they proclaim as superior, and two, I think that a community of (rare) reasonable truth seekers (such as the type of personality that came to this CM website) would work out better as a truth seeking monastic community that focused on helping its younger members achieve the highest education possible rather than the Amish, Mennonites, Hutterites and long term persisting Hippy Communes that are upheld as shining examples of successful communities.  On the other hand, Jewish Kibbutzes are included in his definition (and said to be mostly atheist  and education seekers) and might be acceptable as a role model in my opinion.
    There is much very good discussion of how to handle disputes and troublemakers by the use of a federation of Dunbar sized groups where individual members can be exchanged to allow more diversity and more disagreement.  This (I have always thought) is a very important structure for any small group to have in order to take care of serious disagreements and merits serious consideration by any sustainable/resilient community.
    Of course one can easily say that human nature does not change and that it is misleading to think that "this time it will be different."

    However, I really think that a good blend of modern Roman-based private property rights with American glossed personal freedoms are possible in a "Community that Abides" if two conditions are met: 1. the members are all reasonable personality types (the type that listens to argument and changes their opinion based on reasoned logic): this is only about 5% of the general population albeit most of the people at this CM blogsite; and 2. the community focuses on serious education of its young to a point where the young can out-compete students from the larger society in serious competitions such as spelling, math, physics, biology, new research etc.  A community that focuses on this and moreover cooperates to actively help its young adults acquire PhDs in math and science and to start high tech businesses could keep its young generations from moving away and could "abide" long term.  This is the kind of community that I would like to support.  I dont like Orlov's/Kropotkin's idealized romantic communist community.  Maybe its because I dont like long hours in the field and want machines and technology to do the work and allow me to use my mind more.........
    This kindle book cost 7$ but I can lend out if someone asks........

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  • Mon, Jul 13, 2020 - 7:20pm

    Mohammed Mast

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    This Might be Your ABRACADABRA Mots

    I once took part in a Community building program. It was 9 months. We had 50 people. We met together 4 times during the 9 months and every other week in small groups. My small group was 7 people.

    We had a curriculum divided into 4 subjects. The first was The Self. The second was the Self in Relation to Others. Third was Self in Relation to the Environment and finally Leading Inspired Lives.

    The group meetings were full weekends and the small meetings were every other week. In the small meetings we would have a new video to watch concerning a specific topic.  The fundamental process for all communication was "dialogue". The common definition is a conversation. We used the Greek meaning of dia - through and logos- word or reason. David Bohm the brilliant physicist developed the idea of dialog. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohm_Dialogue

    This was our main tool. It goes way back in other cultures but Bohm popularized it. One culture to use it was/is the Native American Indigenous peoples. It was called Council. It employs a "talking stick" ie. an item usually a stick that is placed in the center of the circle of participants. No one speaks unless they are holding the stick. I will relate a personal story from when I lived on a reservation. There was an issue that came up in the tribe so a council was called and the elders were to meet. A time and place was set. (I was not there but a friend who was told me about it). No one showed up at the appointed time, they all showed up three hours "late".(It is Indian time). The meeting started and everyone just sat there in the circle for a long time silently. Finally someone went "huh" . They all got up and left. The decision had been reached w/o a word being spoken. That is the highest level of dialog I have ever heard about.

    Some principles need to be adhered to for a successful dialog.

    1-Listening is more important than speaking. Deep listening is a very important skill. Deep listening entails not thinking of a response while the other person is speaking. It is active in that you consciously send energy to the person speaking to get out what that person wants to say in the best way possible.

    2- Only speak when you have something to say. It is perfectly okay to say nothing.

    3- Allow a space for a "container"after the person has spoken to completely assimilate what was said

    4- Have a topic and a person assigned to be the "listener" to keep it on topic. It is not necessary to have a goal. It is very good to enter with the idea of learning through exploration in a group.

    5- suspend assumptions. Speak honestly. Suspending assumptions has interesting meanings. One is to hold back the other is to hold up for everyone to see. It is important not to have an agenda other than the topic. But if someone has an agenda it is best that the entire group is made aware.

    It takes time for most people to slow down enough to learn to do it effectively. The talking stick is useful in the beginning but after awhile you can do w/o it. It took us a few meetings to get the process down

    It is pure magic when done well. There is a voice that comes from outside the group that brings new information which no one in the group brought to the dialog. It comes from somewhere in the Universe.

    Bill Issacs from MIT has taken Bohm's work and gone all over the world using it with world leaders and corporations. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acd57U3xO58

    He has an excellent book https://www.amazon.com/Dialogue-Thinking-Together-William-Isaacs/dp/0385479999.

    Good luck and remember it's not the goal it's the journey

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  • Tue, Jul 14, 2020 - 6:25am

    #65
    tbp

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    tbp said:

    @sand_puppy
    I am aware of 2 general belief structures that consciously decide to avoid violence.

    1. People who believe that violence will not be necessary. (Several slight variations: A) Others will not enslave, beat, rape, kill, kidnap me or my family. B) Things won't get that bad. C) The inherent goodness in people will prevent others from behaving in those terrible ways. D) God, or spiritual factors, will protect me. E) Believing that they have excellent skills at situational awareness, street smarts --conflict resolution, escape and evasion and will be able to skate out of dangerous situations.)

    2. Choice to not meet violence with violence. This is a decision to die, be kidnapped, raped, bludgeoned or beaten and see the same done to family and friends without violent response, for spiritual reasons.

    Are there others?

    Those are accurate categorizations I'd say, yeah. It can also be expressed as the non-agression principle (NAP), adherence to which is called voluntaryism, or the principle of the Divine Feminine... which has the correlate of the principle of the Divine Masculine aka the right to self-defense. Discerning who initiated the violence/aggression is always the central issue, and telling children it doesn't matter who initiated the fight is a terrible, destructive idea. The thing about variation A) is that government ends up being that "others" that will seek to enslave everyone -- check out what @VTGothic said in post #49 about James C. Scott and his book about the anarchism of Zomia where to this day voluntaryism/anarchy is maintained, with its pros and cons, but greatly influenced/restricted by the surrounding empires/governments seeking to dominate/control/rule them.

    Your belief structure #2 is that of a right-brain-imbalanced person, common in 'New Age' circles. But left-brain imbalance is very common also, where you're thinking (dealing with linear processes) all the time without breaks to allow your divine feminine energy (right hemisphere) to balance the male aspect (left hemisphere). A major permission slip to gain balance is meditation:

    There is right now ongoing (July 5-14) a call for a global meditation to bring about a second Harmonic Convergence while inviting friendly ETs to visit or show themselves.

    So are we biological or are we more than that? I have been interested in this question since my youth. There is a whole genre of accounts of NDE's, and there are many examples of people who are clinically dead and seem to be able to leave their bodies and see things happening around them from a third party view. What is that about? Like any investigation... these accounts are only one kind of data that can be used in dot connecting.

    Yes, but/and even more interestingly, if you're a ballsy explorer, there is something you can use that relegates you not to a researcher of other people's studies (such as the myriad accounts of NDEs, OOBEs, channeling, etc etc), but to the center of investigation. It's your very own frequency neuromodulator, produced in the center of the brain by the pineal gland once asleep after melatonin secretion at night, that can easily shatter any physicalist notions/beliefs one may be holding onto: DMT. Allow the great psychedelic philosopher Terence McKenna to explain why this may be worth your attention: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=terence+mckenna+dmt - Here's just one I selected at random:

    It's quite literally not possible to explain or stress enough how true it is what McKenna says when he says it's the "ultimate convincer", and the most powerful experience a human can have "this side of the yawning grave".

    Sorry if it seems a bit off-topic; my intention is not to flood discussions with metaphysical ideas, but it's really ultimately the most important/relevant aspect of one's research. Ultimately the causal flow of reality is metaphysics -> biophysics -> biochemistry. This was an economics-centered place right, before coronavirus? Now CV is center-stage because it's the most relevant discussion topic.

    Dean Radin is another pioneering giant indeed. Check out also the HeartMath Institute for the cutting edge of the scientific explanatory thread as to the interaction with the hyperdimensional quantum fabric of reality, which happens through the electromagnetic field of the heart more than the brain. Also, do you know of Dolores Cannon?

     

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  • Tue, Jul 14, 2020 - 6:30am

    #66
    tbp

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    tbp said:

    @jbuck
    re: communitarian vs libertarian - in my mind, these are not mutually exclusive. I started with Mutual Aid by Kropotkin. In the US, most people understand "libertarian" to mean something like "right-wing gun nut" and/or "rugged individual." I am none of those things. I philosophically tend to the libertarian left but I will admit, for me that's more aspirational than practical and I have no truck with the so-called "anarchists" recently on display in the media. Chaos is not anarchy. Anarchy does not mean "without order", "without leaders", or "without rules". It means "without rulers". It has nothing to do with wanton destruction. The non-aggression principle is important to me (and I am reflective about the disagreements over same). That certainly does not preclude self defense. I know of mutual aid societies that are pretty well organized on that front.

    Yep, and private security is already bigger than state security / law enforcement -- it's a $350 billion industry booming since 2010 (see this link but you'll have to paste it together as for some reason it's another site censored on PP: https://www.firstsecurity services .com/the-growth-development-of-the-private-security-industry/ )

    The "anarchist" rioters of BLM/antifa are "anarchist" only in the sense that they want to replace the current quasi-democratic (or even quite-democratic when compared to the more faux Western democracies) government with a Deep State Communist dictatorship. They are as opposite of voluntaryism as you can get.

    One of my favorite anarchists is Mark Passio:

    A fitting name, I appreciate the passion with which he speaks. 😀

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  • Tue, Jul 14, 2020 - 6:37am

    #67
    JoeVickers

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    No Savings.... No options?

    Say hypothetically someone has zero savings to convert into recession-proof/resistant assets.... what in the world can that person do?

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  • Tue, Jul 14, 2020 - 6:56am

    David Turin

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    No Savings.... lots of options!

    Say hypothetically someone has zero savings to convert into recession-proof/resistant assets.... what in the world can that person do?

    I think this someone would do the same things as everyone else.  Take action.  Do something every day.  Establish new habits. New eating habits.  Reach out into their community for help, say starting a garden.  Is it possible to plant tomato seeds from a tomato on hand had or someone shares some seeds?  Can one get their hands on some potatoes? And plant them?

    Any food one can grow means money saved and money saved is savings. One step at a time.  Soon, there could be some savings.  Mostly all one has to do is decide to do something.  The human mind can be very powerful once it has a clear goal.

    This someone would take time for an assessment and do something about their financial situation.  Begin by setting aside one dollar a day, paying oneself; beginning a savings account if you will.  If there is zero income, this is where to begin, perhaps.  Make an income stream.  If one has none, any amount would be a big difference.

    https://www.peakprosperity.com/take-action/

     

     

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  • Tue, Jul 14, 2020 - 7:23am

    #69
    Mohammed Mast

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    You Are Not Braced For Impact but He Was

    I first became aware of Sylvan Hart (Buckskin Bill) in the early 70's when I was living in the Mtns. He was a hero of mine but never got to meet him. He left the oil patch and headed to one of the remotest places you could live. He lived alone and as self sufficiently as anyone i have heard about.

    I think we have a long ways to go to catch up to him. RIP Buckskin Bill

    Here is an old video that is very well worth the watch.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K75sQ37hibg&feature=emb_err_woyt

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  • Tue, Jul 14, 2020 - 8:45am

    Thors Hammer

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    Options

    There are at least 20 million renters who will be unable to make rent payments between now and the coming November electoral circus.

    They have no savings.  Unless the Government pays their rent the vast majority will become homeless.

    There will then be three classes of people:

    1- The ultra-rich hiding in their bunkers or behind razor wire private enclaves.

    2- Roving armies of armed bandits

    3- The unarmed sheep who thought that raising chickens and a vegetable garden would see them through the coming conflict.

    No savings and no alternatives?   Buy an AR15 and join the armies of  sub-human barbarians raiding the sheep fold.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    I will say that I coated my post with the exact opposite of sugar!  The US has the most heavily armed civilian population in the world, but thus far has shown little inclination to use them except by high school psychopaths.  The scenario of pitched battles between bandit armies and chicken farmers over who gets the last morsel of food is one that will only occur if the last remnants of society collapse, but it is not out of the realm of possibility.   Twenty million starving homeless before November?  Hardly likely when all the current administration has to do is open the floodgates to helicopter money for renters as they did for billionaires and the problem will be kicked down the street for long enough for the sham election to take place.

    What I find amazing about the BLM movement----if it is indeed a movement rather than an organized provocation----is the extent to which it completely diverts attention from the real problem.  That would be the collapse of a dysfunctional economic system controlled by and for a handful of billionaires and psychopathic War Hawks. Where are the angry mobs attacking Bill Gates' fortified underground mansion on Mercer Island?  Where are the drone swarms armed with C4  flying into the path of Bezos' private jet as it takes off?  But in America race hatred is always easier to whip into flames than class consciousness.

    All Lives Matter---It's just that some like Gates, Bezos, Clinton, and Epstein are better spent behind bars for life.

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  • Tue, Jul 14, 2020 - 9:26am

    Mohammed Mast

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    Thors

    You really should not sugar coat things

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  • Tue, Jul 14, 2020 - 9:45am

    VTGothic

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    Two thoughts about Dialog

    1. This sounds very much like a Quaker meeting. Quakers sit in silence, usually in a circle, and only speak when "moved" by the Spirit to say something. The idea is to listen for "the still, small Voice of God." Whole hour-long meetings can pass in complete silence; others can be amazingly powerful as different participants speak as moved and discover a gradually emergent message. They see it as coming from God.

    2. I am reminded of my young adulthood when, during my 20s, my now-wife and I lived in several communal houses. House business was conducted in topic-based meetings where the kind of dialog you describe took place - not necessarily with a talisman, but with a concern for the same process, and in some settings with a "timekeeper" who also kept the conversation on topic. I can tell you it can be awfully time consuming. (This was my experience the one time I participated in a Native American council, too.) If you've got lots of time with little else to do - or if you have decided that interpersonal communication is the most important agenda for one's day (or life) - that's great. But I finally got tired of it. It can be incredibly inefficient.

    We used this same kind of process, including with a talking stick, when I lived in Maine and participated in annual gatherings for men (called Mainely Men) back in the 1980s. It's really an old Quaker model, popularized (if not developed) in the 1960s counterculture, and used at group events like the anti-nuclear energy protests and occupations of the 70s. The Philadelphia-based "Movement for a New Society," among whom we lived for a year, taught the process, along with methods for nonviolent protest, conflict resolution, and strategies for isolating agent provocateurs. In those days, nonviolent protestors and occupiers belonged to cell groups that knew one another and trained together; I saw evidence of such cell groups in the Occupy Wall Street movement videos and news reports, and see it more recently in Antifa actions (except they don't practice the nonviolent element).

     

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  • Tue, Jul 14, 2020 - 10:02am

    VTGothic

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    I think you left out a 4th type

    I don't know any chicken-raising vegetable farmers without guns. And I'm in Vermont, a likely place for such to show up. I expect they're even more rare in the Great Redoubt.

    I am pretty sure there are 2nd homeowners, seasonal retirees, and recent escapees from urban areas around here who are unarmed; some of whom garden or raise chickens. They might be your 3rd category, ripe for your 2nd. But I would not recommend they or their urban neighbors assume that chicken raisers and vegetable farmers have no ideas about property defense or how to use guns. After all, if you've got livestock you've got predators and if you want to keep your livestock you learn to hunt the hunters. I know some pretty darned good hunters. Who also grow vegetables.

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  • Tue, Jul 14, 2020 - 12:13pm

    #74
    dragonfly

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    A question of magnification

    The philosopher Alan Watts (circa 1970s) taught me that what looks like chaos at one level of magnification, can be in perfect harmony at another level.   He uses the example of a newspaper photograph under a microscope.    One pixel means nothing, but when you step back, you see order that is the photograph.  ("We as Organism" lecture)

    As I scan the daily headlines (pixels), sometimes it is helpful (though not comforting) to step back and look at the big picture.  The human race is in overshoot.   The earth is about to get a fever (global warming) and this and other viruses will thin the herd.   In the long cycles of time, what we are experiencing is normal.    Humanity has outgrown the resource base that sustains it and our population must decrease.   That's just the way nature works - both for yeast in a wine vat or people on Easter Island.

    In the words of Jim Morrison, no one gets out of here alive.   Understand that there are forces at play much larger than us.    Accept your mortality and enjoy the day.   Me, I'm off to take my dog for a walk.

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  • Tue, Jul 14, 2020 - 1:20pm

    #75
    French connexion

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    What if?

    Going into the close stocks are doing quite well for an earnings season expected to disappoint. Nasdaq was quite weak and now it's sporting a healthy gain! What if that is the plan - the only way to keep up with what is going to happen before it happens is to own stocks? - and just keep on buying them.

    As for the spiritual side expressed by some - I'm not sure if I really understand. Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's.

    And you can't serve two masters ... Mt 6, 24

    I don't know why we got off topic here?

    Unless we think that our current predicament is somehow related to our (here I am sustituting for you as I do not live in the States) lack of thanksgiving - meaning a happy kindful recognition maybe there is a higher order that we should be paying attention to?

    Don't blame me for these words - someone in a greenhouse threw a stone or two.

    As for the stocks - at this point I will be very happy to eat crow for awhile, biding my time until this artificial Humpty Dumpty falls down.

    Have a good evening.

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  • Tue, Jul 14, 2020 - 3:07pm

    #76
    jbuck

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    Unloose the Goose

    Couple of things I want to add but will come back later when I have time.

    Right now I wanted to offer this:  https://unloosethegoose.com/2020/07/10/the-gaggle/

    I occasionally listen to Jack Spirko (The Survival Podcast).  I'm mostly interested in his application of Permaculture at his place down in TX.  He's put together a "supergroup" of podcasters related to liberty/anarchism/agorism/etc. and having adult conversations about hard problems.  Scroll down the link to see who's in.  Curtis Stone (an urban farmer) is another guy I have listened to quite a bit.  I've heard of a couple of the others but don't know much about them.  The link is to "episode 0" describing what he has in mind.

    jeff

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  • Tue, Jul 14, 2020 - 3:12pm

    Mohammed Mast

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    Thank You VT

    First I would like to thank you for your response. It is refreshing to find someone with experience with dialog.

    With that said I am left with some questions and assumptions.

    I assume your attempts at community were failures and you are not part of a community now. It appears you are a kinesthetic learner, ie. a doer. Your preference would be to talk less and do more. It is preferable for you to make a snap decision and do something that may not work out rather than dialog about something and make a decision with a better chance of success. I assume in line with that your idea of "efficiency " is speed. You would rather go alone fast than slow with a group.

    I assume you are an Amerikan. Reason for that assumption is as I have posted here Amerikans are the only people who would stand in front of a microwave yelling at it because it takes too long. I assume you are an extremely intelligent person, who is well read. You know a lot of stuff. I assume you are more comfortable with digital communication rather than "interpersonal communication"

    My questions are : do you interrupt people in the middle of a sentence? Do you see no value whatsoever in a community for dialog? Since we clearly live in a Patriarchal, racist, polarized society trained on 10 second sound bytes , it is not surprising for people to not be comfortable with a different style of communication. Speaking of race do you think it is valuable to use dialog for those who are marginalized, like minorities (not an issue in Vt. I know since it is 95% white) and women?  I ask as it seems that minorities and women tend to be left out of discussions where it is predominantly white and male.

    Yes it is an old Quaker model or similar as many indigenous cultures employ it. The Quakers actually employ a number of different methods in their meetings. There are a number of different ways to approach dialog. It is up to the participants to decide what works for them. I was not in anyway saying there was one way to dialog or even that one should. I merely posited to someone here that since they are building a community dialog is a powerful and useful tool. Personally I have experienced a great deal of "magic" and been opened up to all kinds of new information. Too bad it didn't work for you, but we all operate on different frequencies.

    I hope you don't take this as a personal attack but I like to be as clear as possible with the people I communicate with.  I will leave you with one of my favorite stories that might be apt.

    One day there was an old bull and a young bull on top of a hill. They were looking out at the herd of cows in the valley. The young bull says to the old bull " let's run down the hill and love a cow" The old bull just stands there for a minute chewing on some grass and then says " Let's just walk down and love them all"

     

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  • Tue, Jul 14, 2020 - 5:03pm

    Oliveoilguy

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    6+

    There is a 4th group that you overlooked.

    The PP group that has community (real or virtual), gardens, chickens, and ammo. That’s the value of this forum.... There is a functional practicality here....The far left and the far right don’t find their accustomed echo chambers here. Nuance and balance are boring for the ignorant.

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  • Tue, Jul 14, 2020 - 10:29pm

    #79
    jbuck

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    Humans

    This thread is getting long in the tooth but I still want to toss a couple of ideas out there.

    I share Mots' reaction regarding "Orlov's/Kropotkin's idealized romantic communist community".  Kropotkin was a natural scientist and his thought emerged from his observations of non-human animals in their natural environment.  Other animals don't have any concept of property, or rights, for that matter.  I see promoting that state to the level of solution as nostalgia for something long gone - that was the Garden of Eden.  We do have those concepts and, as they say, you can't un-ring a bell.

    Still, I find much to admire in his work.  Here's a passage from the introduction to Mutual Aid, "They all endeavoured to prove that Man, owing to his higher intelligence and knowledge, may mitigate the harshness of the struggle for life between men; but they all recognized at the same time that the struggle for the means of existence, of every animal against all its congeners, and of every man against all other men, was "a law of Nature." This view, however, I could not accept, because I was persuaded that to admit a pitiless inner war for life within each species, and to see in that war a condition of progress, was to admit something which not only had not yet been proved, but also lacked confirmation from direct observation."

    Dialectic has become a dirty word in many circles these days, but I still find it useful.  I see this stage of our evolution as a dialectic between the primacy of the group and the primacy of the individual. (it's not an elite manufactured crisis for which there is a prepared "synthesis", it's just where we're at)  IMHO, the American cult of the individual has pushed things WAY too far, and some have made a boat load of money as a result.  I believe we will find a middle way.

    I also believe the human race is but one of myriad "tissues" or "organs" of planet Earth, which I understand as a living thing.  If the organs function optimally and in concert, health of the whole will manifest.  So we need to get our shit together.

    Related - Imagine the human race as an individual in a community made up of individual species.  David Orr has characterized us as autistic - we do not pick up or appropriately respond to the social queues from the other members of our planetary community.  I think about that a lot.

    jeff

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  • Wed, Jul 15, 2020 - 5:24am

    VTGothic

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    Wow, MM!

    It's short, MM, but that's an impressive list of assumptions you've made about me!

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  • Wed, Jul 15, 2020 - 5:25am

    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    The Goose

    A very good idea. Interestingly we were thinking of going to the Homesteading Life conference in Hannibal Mo. In August and Curtis Stone was going to be the keynote speaker. We will not be going thanks to the virus. I don't know if it will even happen.

    Thanks for the find should be interesting

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  • Wed, Jul 15, 2020 - 5:31am

    Mohammed Mast

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    VT

    Not so impressive at all. They are nothing more than assumptions. Some may be accurate  or none. I had nothing to base them on other than what you posted about dialog.

    There is no right or wrong or good or bad. Just observations . You also did not offer any thing you might find useful is an attempt to form community. I found that an interesting omission.

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  • Wed, Jul 15, 2020 - 5:35am

    RandomMike

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    RandomMike said:

    Prof. Kropotkin was a comedic figure in the 1940's radio show "My Friend Irma."

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041673/characters/nm0175788

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  • Wed, Jul 15, 2020 - 8:25am

    stevedaly

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    Replying to Kropotkin #79

    "Kropotkin was a natural scientist and his thought emerged from his observations of non-human animals in their natural environment.  Other animals don't have any concept of property, or rights, for that matter."  Thank you for clearing that up!  All these years we have been misled that mountain lions mark their territory and that the strong bull elk fight to keep their cows.  We've seen domesticated dogs and horses get upset when strange dogs and horses come on what they perceive as their home.  Those things we were told and observed really didn't happen because animals honestly just have a natural love for fellow animals just like humans should.  Thank you!

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  • Wed, Jul 15, 2020 - 10:16am

    jbuck

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    jbuck said:

    @Mohammed Mast - If you're interested in Curtis Stone, you probably already know about Diego Footer from Permaculture Voices, a podcaster who covers small-scale, integrated farming and food systems.  People argue about whether or not it's all really Permaculture (Wheaton gets that too and he's also doing crazy cool stuff up in MT) but I'm no purist and there's lots of interesting experiments well underway.  People say Stone isn't doing Permaculture either.  Whatever he's doing, he produces lots of quality food and makes a good living off a couple of urban plots at a surprisingly high latitude while producing tons of living, material, knowledge, and social capital.

    Since some have expressed a feeling that we've drifted from the OP, I'll bring it back to say that people like these are showing us templates for winning and I offer these examples as evidence to support the very first comment in this thread - we are winning, slowly but surely.

    TPTB will cause lots of destruction for sure but the "imaginal cells" are in place.  That is the nature of metamorphosis (a totally fascinating topic - SO much more than caterpillars and butterflies - I had to get the linked book via ILL from U of WY but it looks like cheap used copies are out there now; well worth the effort IMO, blew my mind).

    We took the kids to Hanibal a few summers ago - Tom Sawyer, not homesteading.  95 degrees with a heat index over 100 from the humidity.  I'm from the semi-arid west so it was tough.  Stay at or near the campground where the cave is.  It's gated at night but a nice 54 degree breeze blows out of it.

    If you're in that region of the country, look at what the Wilsons have been up to in Stelle, IL.  Also, Mark Shepard's place is within a days drive in WI.  I was there about 10 years ago and would love to see what his "Regenerative Agriculture" as produced.

    Many people are out there DOING IT.  Have hope; stay grounded; do something to contribute to our collective waking up.

    jeff

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  • Wed, Jul 15, 2020 - 10:19am

    jbuck

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    jbuck said:

    You've only been misled if you believe that a mountain lion has a property right to its territory or that a bull could seek remedy through a third party in the event someone shoots one of his cows.  Loggers and hunters would be in big trouble.  Territory and property rights are not the same.  Does your dog have the deed to your back yard?  Maybe talk to some Native Americans about that.

    jeff

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  • Wed, Jul 15, 2020 - 11:56am

    stevedaly

    stevedaly

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    I love your philosophy Jeff

    No animals don't have lawyers.  Their property rights are determined by what the predator or animal decides they are.  The question may be whether we should accept Darwin's theory that the fit survive.  Or do humans rise above animals and determine there is a greater purpose?  Should we really look to animals as a model when we make our decisions?

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  • Wed, Jul 15, 2020 - 11:58am

    RebOrman

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    RebOrman said:

    A lack of imagination doesn't mean there's nothing left to imagine. If you can't see it that doesn't mean it's not there.

    Reductivism only shuts off possibilities. I refuse the central premise that there are only 2 options, that violence must be met with violence as the only viable response.

    I appreciate your comment, though. I find it very insightful.

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  • Wed, Jul 15, 2020 - 1:24pm

    Pappy

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    Help - PP Forum search assistance, please

    EDITED - Because my original tone was snarky and I'm working on that.

    HELP - I can't seem to find how to correctly search for these two posts in the forum:

    1. Ivermectin in Peru

    2. HCQ from India by Peggy

     

    I may be just ignorant to this style of web design and search engine, but when I specifically copy/paste "Ivermectin in Peru" from Mohammed Mast's post into the search query at the top of the page, I get zilch for results:

    I don't even see a search bar on the forum page, it was there at one point, not anymore:

    So, being new here: Can someone show me how to search this website and the forum for things properly?

    Google Chrome browser.

     

    I'm certain there is a wealth of info on here, if I could query it properly I'd be ever gracious.

     

    Thanks in advance.

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  • Wed, Jul 15, 2020 - 1:58pm

    jbuck

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    jbuck said:

    I don't think we disagree.  Look back at my post where I say that doing that represents nostalgia for something long gone (Garden of Eden).  My point is exactly that we should not look to animals to solve our problems (as Kropotkin did, IMO, but I'm not a scholar there either so I could be wrong).  Maybe my prose failed to reflect that belief so I'm sorry if I was confusing.

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  • Wed, Jul 15, 2020 - 4:14pm

    stevedaly

    stevedaly

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    I don't disagree

    Thanks for great ideas!

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  • Wed, Jul 15, 2020 - 4:39pm

    #92
    Mohammed Mast

    Mohammed Mast

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    Pappy

    LOL I couldn't find the post about Ivermectin and Peru either.

    So here is the link.

    https://www.trialsitenews.com/how-a-grass-roots-health-movement-led-to-acceptance-of-ivermectin-as-a-covid-19-therapy-in-peru/

    Peggy's thread on where to get HCQ is in the forums. Look in current events. Might be on 2nd page. I can tell you if you go to Indiamart.com you can look for HCQ there. If you sign up you will get copious responses to your email. I can't say which are good. You might PM Peggy to see what she did.

    Good Luck

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  • Thu, Jul 16, 2020 - 3:31am

    phusg

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    phusg said:

    I am aware of 2 general belief structures that consciously decide to avoid violence.

    1.  People who believe that violence will not be necessary.

    2.  Choice to not meet violence with violence.

    1. People who believe that violence will *never* be necessary are deniers as I don't think it's too difficult to imagine a bad situation happening to close family where any sane person would be compulsed into a violent reaction.

    2. Consciously choosing to avoid and/or abstain from violence I'd call pacifism, as popularised by Jesus.

    I think the smartest position is to do everything in one's power to avoid violence, but at the same time being prepared to dish out violence as a last resort if certain clearly established boundaries are violated.

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  • Thu, Jul 16, 2020 - 3:37am

    phusg

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    phusg said:

    1. People who believe that violence will *never* be necessary are deniers as I don't think it's too difficult to imagine a bad situation happening to close family where any sane person would be compulsed into a violent reaction.

    I think an evolutionary biologist would say that the credible threat of violence is necessary to avoid many more bad situations happening to you.

    Are there any pacifist species? Searching the terms yields a lot of sci-fi stuff. But in our reality, is there any species that doesn't do everything at it's disposal to avoid being eaten?

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  • Thu, Jul 16, 2020 - 3:48am

    #95
    phusg

    phusg

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    phusg said:

    So my advice is to brace for impact. There’s nothing any of us can do to affect national monetary policy or stop the major unraveling trends already set in motion, but we can do our best to step outside harm’s way and tend the welfare of ourselves and those we care about as the system falters.

    I have a great deal of sympathy for Chris' analysis and message, but I just want to put this out there:

    Isn't the fatalistic isolationist approach of saying to hell with the rest, let's just tend to the welfare of ourselves and those we care about, exactly the same mentality as that of the elites you talk of with their having all the power and no interest in sharing any of it?

    I'm not sure power is ever shared, rather than competed for and won. Although I'd agree that human nature means whereever possible won power is then anti-competitively guarded.

    We are the system, even if we don't individually always feel like we have a big determining role in it's heading.

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  • Fri, Jul 24, 2020 - 4:38pm

    #96
    2retired

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    2retired said:

    The trouble with total self reliance is like parsnips (which I dislike). My father always appreciated (fond of them, even) them as they were the last semi-edible vegetable to come out of the root cellar (when he was a child), (I am not really fond of turnips either). I have done the 'off the grid' for a while, and prepared for the mega thrust, But I do like a little 18year old singlemalt, so will temper my self reliant garden ambitions.

    Jim Morrison....I have to find that tape..

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