Nice manipulated finish to the market today.

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Johnny Oxygen's picture
Johnny Oxygen
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Nice manipulated finish to the market today.

Johnny Oxygen's picture
Johnny Oxygen
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Huh?

Why did it drop my chart?

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Johnny Oxygen
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hmmmm

Third times a charm?

SagerXX's picture
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Yeah, JO

I guess we're totally through the looking glass.

YoungEntrepreneur's picture
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No kidding, I noticed that too

And suddenly here comes the Fed promising low rates until mid 2013 and practically guaranteeing more stimulus. No worries folks, QE3 on the way very soon. Stocks artificially back up.

The Stock market is rigged joke. If you know how to play the game and have inside info/contacts you can make money (even a killing) but the average long-term buy and hold investor is going to get crushed or at the worst be very disappointed.

It seems like investing in yourself, purchasing good preps and hard assets with long-term utility and value, starting flexible and mobile businesses and developing creative lifestyle designs and survival tactics will yield better returns than most stocks.

Earning 10-15% (if you can even manage that) does not seem like a very good investment to me outside of maybe some long-term cash equivalent safe and conservative emergency funds.

PMs, productive land adjacent to fresh water, housing in jurisdictions offering compelling benefits/advantages, strategic reserves/preps and investing in yourself, your relationships and your business seem like a better use of capital to me.

Care to elaborate on your thoughts on the manipulation today?

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It seems like investing in

It seems like investing in yourself, purchasing good preps and hard assets with long-term utility and value, starting flexible and mobile businesses and developing creative lifestyle designs and survival tactics will yield better returns than most stocks.

I agree.

I wonder if the majority of people investing in the stock market even know why they are doing it.

Earning 10-15% (if you can even manage that) does not seem like a very good investment to me outside of maybe some long-term cash equivalent safe and conservative emergency funds.

And thats 10-15% with risk, not a gaurantee.

I Have no proof but I always smell a rat when its been trending down all day then on the last hour, or even 15 minutes, it shoots up with no apparent reason for it to do so.

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Doug
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FOMC announcement

Shortly after the announcement of low interest for two years, all the markets went haywire bouncing all over the place.  But then, somehow the stock markets seem to have concluded it was really good for them and went to the moon.  Gold went down, silver went further down and the USD went further down.  I can't figure out how that sets us up for QE3.

Doug

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Hey Sager, how's that Farm Business Plan going?

I know a guy that funds those types of deals. He actually JV'd in one several years ago in Costa Rica. Mel Gibson bought some large farmland near where he purchased.

I thought it was a pretty shrewd move even though I think some other places make more sense now than Costa Rica. I suppose back when he invested it made more sense there.

Hope that works out for you. Farmland and access to fresh water sources are two of your best longterm investment options. One of the guys I follow, who many consider one of the sharpest investors around, did precisely that. He bought an almond farm. Just another way for him to secure access to water and good land while extracting some utility off it while the investment value grows.

Tough part is that farmland, especially in the US, has skyrocketed. I actually like parts of Latin America more for such purposes, in particular South America. Good luck with that.

YE 

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txgirl69
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I'm with you guys

I saw it too......hovering all day and then suddenly breaking 11k. What a gaggle. How can anybody see that and believe it isn't rigged?

JohnnyO - the only reason I'm still contributing 5% to my 401k is because my other half continues to have some lingering hope that we'll get it back in time.....It's easier for me if I just think of it as flushing $ down the toilet. I don't pin any hopes on ever seeing it again, much less with a 10-15% gain. My stomache hurts...

I want that money, we could use it for several preps.... I should take it out, he would get over it!

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Re: FOMC announcement

What is interesting is that the FOMC announcement came out around 2:15, if I remember correctly, thats when you see the market shudder and start falling. Then, all of a sudden a tremendous leap way past the days high.

Weird

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Re: I'm with you guys

I should take it out, he would get over it!

LoL

Oh god don't do that. Thats what divorces are made of.

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Re: FOMC announcement

Imagine those who sold BAC yesterday at -20% and are seeing it now back to +16.7%!! Ooops.

What a joke, BofA is trading like a penny stock.

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More QE3 coming was easy to predict a while ago

The economy is in the gutter. Obama is already clamoring for stimulus. Bernanke had already opened the doors for that possibility (QE3). Printing money is the only thing they know how to do.

US GOVERNMENT'S PLAYBOOK

1) Borrow Money from Foreign Gov'ts (not mant willing to lend anymore)

2) Raise Taxes (politically unpopular)

3) Print Money (more QE, ultimately disastrous via high or hyper inflation and currency devaluation but it's a their easiest quick fix)

PRINT MONEY WINS!!! Helicopter Ben at his finest.

I think the carnage is in envitable for the US. Place your contrarian bets, crisis invest, liquidate, conslidate, diversify and prepare. I think more US ciitzens should be exploring their options overseas.

Just like the song says...

IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT... AND I FEEL FINE...

Later,

YE

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401K

The only reason I keep contributing to my 401K is that the employer matches it 100%.  Hard to beat 100% return in the first year.

Doug

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Back to Johnny Oxygen

Yeah, if you want something conservative, secure and returning a predictable yield why mess with stocks?

You can just act as a Private Lender through a SDIRA and lend against solid performing commecial real estate properties at low LTVs (65% or below) or residential income properties at even lower LTVs (50% or below). Earn 9-15% annually on your money and in case someone fails to make a payment take over the collateral.

Choose your borrowers, markets, property management companies and tenants carefully. Works out quite well for those type of investments.

I know several people who will gladly pay 9-12% Interest Only to Private Lenders. If that's all you want why mess with anything else.

This won't make you rich overnight but it would make most people pretty happy, at least as far as the conservative part of their portfolio.

The only problem is that the investment is not liquid but you can always negotiate something with the borrower in case you need to liquidate prematurely. You could always forgive interest or principal in a worst case scenario in order to get an early repayment.

YE  

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Just a couple of thoughts.....

YoungEntrepreneur wrote:

And suddenly here comes the Fed promising low rates until mid 2013 and practically guaranteeing more stimulus. No worries folks, QE3 on the way very soon. Stocks artificially back up.

The Stock market is rigged joke. If you know how to play the game and have inside info/contacts you can make money (even a killing) but the average long-term buy and hold investor is going to get crushed or at the worst be very disappointed.

It seems like investing in yourself, purchasing good preps and hard assets with long-term utility and value, starting flexible and mobile businesses and developing creative lifestyle designs and survival tactics will yield better returns than most stocks.

Earning 10-15% (if you can even manage that) does not seem like a very good investment to me outside of maybe some long-term cash equivalent safe and conservative emergency funds.

PMs, productive land adjacent to fresh water, housing in jurisdictions offering compelling benefits/advantages, strategic reserves/preps and investing in yourself, your relationships and your business seem like a better use of capital to me.

Care to elaborate on your thoughts on the manipulation today?

First off, welcome YE -

I was not at all surprised the markets moved after the FOMC meeting today.  I would have been stunned if they hadn't.  I have been in and studying the market intensely for the past 9 years and it has been my observation that what the market doesn't like is uncertainty.  The market went into a hover just before the FOMC and then tanked - I think a bunch of folks jumped the gun and sold expecting a different move by the Fed.  No matter....

So the Fed says they are going to leave rates untouched for 2 years.  Boom....we have ignition, go at throttle up.  The Fed just said in not so many words (or maybe more words, whatever) "We are committing to leaving interest rates untouched, thereby guaranteeing that we will have no other options except to flood the markets (again) with an ass load of stimulus money called QEIII."  (Yeah, I know, Ben probably didn't say 'ass load', but he was thinking it.)

The uncertainty was gone, QEIII was all but delivered, the promise of money and the accompanying market liquidity was gut hooked and the markets launched.  The movement would likely have been just as abrupt in the opposite direction if the Fed had tweaked rates higher and shone the Kentucky Fried Chicken heat lamp on the drying puddle of market liquidity.  Of course, a decision to raise rates is also a clarifying one in terms of removing uncertainty so the markets may also have launched on such news.  Again, no matter, it did what it did.

I really can't agree with you that the market is rigged.  It does what it does.  Concerning yourself with the "Why" it does what it does is nothing more than a distraction.  If you focus yourself more on the fact that the markets MOVE, rather than WHY they move, you will adopt a market neutral approach that will serve your trading and investing efforts far better than a green market biased "Buy and Hold" approach.

So today wasn't really a surprise at all.

See ya round the threads.....

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Amen Brother

Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:

I really can't agree with you that the market is rigged.  It does what it does.  Concerning yourself with the "Why" it does what it does is nothing more than a distraction. 

I totally agree Dogs. What happened into the close was just a short-covering rally, and it was way overdue, Fed or no Fed.

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Respectfully disagree Dogs-In_A_Pile & JAG

I do think the Stock Market is rigged and heavily manipulated.

Wall Street Insiders & High Level Corporate Execs. (in concert with government officials) constantly...

- conduct insider trading 

- make exagerrated claims

- undereport negative corporate critical developments

- issue false reports or fabricate fraudulent data on the performance and health their balance sheets

- influence and bribe the government to pass litigation, enact laws and issue incentives and stimulus that advance their private agendas

- control and influence media and advertisement to advance their spin, sales pitches and distraction campaigns

- corrupt rating agencies

and ultimately conduct criminal activity on a ridiculosuly large scale, cover it up and get away with it for the most part.

I think that's pretty onbvious and the 2008/2009 crisis illustrated many examples of that. 

The Fed & Obama know money printing and inflation helps corporate stocks. Therefore, what they did yesterday and will do over the next few weeks will be fairly predictable.

Most people with experience in investment banking and Wall Street know that the amount of fraud, market deception, white collar criminal activity and gross negligence over the past decade has been at stratospheric levels.

The US government system is a ponzi scheme and the stock market's manipulation is a critical cog in that.

Heck, I though that was OBVIOUS by now.

Open to listening to your conterpoints.

YE

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Clarification....

YoungEntrepreneur wrote:

I do think the Stock Market is rigged and heavily manipulated.

Wall Street Insiders & High Level Corporate Execs. (in concert with government officials) constantly...

- conduct insider trading 

- make exagerrated claims

- undereport negative corporate critical developments

- issue false reports or fabricate fraudulent data on the performance and health their balance sheets

- influence and bribe the government to pass litigation, enact laws and issue incentives and stimulus that advance their private agendas

- control and influence media and advertisement to advance their spin, sales pitches and distraction campaigns

- corrupt rating agencies

and ultimately conduct criminal activity on a ridiculosuly large scale, cover it up and get away with it for the most part.

I think that's pretty onbvious and the 2008/2009 crisis illustrated many examples of that. 

The Fed & Obama know money printing and inflation helps corporate stocks. Therefore, what they did yesterday and will do over the next few weeks will be fairly predictable.

Most people with experience in investment banking and Wall Street know that the amount of fraud, market deception, white collar criminal activity and gross negligence over the past decade has been at stratospheric levels.

The US government system is a ponzi scheme and the stock market's manipulation is a critical cog in that.

Heck, I though that was OBVIOUS by now.

Open to listening to your conterpoints.

YE

YE -

I should probably clarify that I don't concern myself with whether or not the market is rigged or manipulated.  I ONLY concern myself with whether or not the market, or more specifically, a particular stock is moving in price.  I don't care if it's up or down as I am market neutral.

I trade a stock based on the actual price movement it is doing, not the movement I want it to do - in other words I take what the market gives me, and I don't look for a trade biased by what I want the market to do.  I'm rarely in for the best, first nickel and out at the last, best dime - and am content to take a chunk of the movement and move on. 

Being biased to a green market is understandable, but such a mind set is necessarily paralyzing and cuts the possibility of good trades in half.  Probably the most important aspect of how I do my trading is never focusing on maximizing the number of profitable trades but minimizing the number of losing trades.  That and conducting a "good" trade - did I trade properly?  If I get into a position and it starts to go against me, I get out with minimal losses - that is a good trade.  If I get in a position and it moves my direction and I get out with a profit when it hits my target, that is also a good trade.

So in short, by focusing my trading efforts around the fact that the markets move, rather than worrying about why they are moving I have made myself fairly immune to 'rigged' or 'manipulated' markets. 

Unless of course someone rigs the market to move sideways - then I will not be happy because I really don't like selling Calls and Puts naked and waiting for option price time decay to run its course before buying the options back at a lower price.

Johnny Oxygen's picture
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Not again

Man, today they manipulated the price down.

Those guys guys have me confused as hell.

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Fear

Today I smelled fear in the equity market.  I think people want to have cash to deal with what is coming next.  Yes, I think a QE3 type gig is coming.  It basically has to.  They may not call it QE3 but that is what it will amount to.  The Fed Gov did not cut squat and after watching the circus over the last few weeks I don't think they are going to.  Somebody has to buy the debt or the Fed Gov will default and all the banks and big shots and the super rich will get the haircut of a lifetime.  They will print and then they will print some more and they will keep printing until inflation becomes so bad that chaos will break out.  At that point they will default.  That will give the people who have the most to lose plenty of time and money to prepare.  They will buy commodities, real estate, food, tangible assets, you name it.  They will move their cash to save places.  They may well move themselves to safe places.  It will not make any difference what the markets do in the end.  If you do not have anything to eat or a way to defend yourself then it will be very serious.

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YoungEntrepreneur wrote: I

YoungEntrepreneur wrote:

I do think the Stock Market is rigged and heavily manipulated....

Open to listening to your conterpoints.

YE

While I agree absolutely with all the points you enumerate I think there has been little manipulation of the market this past week. My reason for saying so is that we have seen a completely schizophrenic market with huge up and down movements that have been of such scale to completely overwhelm the manipulators.

I look for the seesaw-ing to tail off this next week, then we'll get back to the "normal" managed market. Of course this could be upset by some more bad news (from Europe maybe). Amazing what the S&P trigger was able to do in a week where nothing much really changed.

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Really?

ok...c'mon.

Market forces on the last hour of trading? I don't think so.

Extarordinarily similar to the August 9th chart posted above.

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robertdavis wrote: Awesome

robertdavis wrote:

Awesome post this is. I like this most .

Thanking You.

http://www.chasingbeta.com/

Thanks

I have to figure out how to post Dow snap shots instead of the updated ones.

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Johnny, can you explain for

Johnny, can you explain for those us not so up on market dynamics the possible intent of a postulated manipulation like you are referencing?  In other words, how are the big players benefiting from a last minute drop?  Thanks!

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$.02

tictac1 wrote:

Johnny, can you explain for those us not so up on market dynamics the possible intent of a postulated manipulation like you are referencing?  In other words, how are the big players benefiting from a last minute drop?  Thanks!

tictac -

This is not an attempt to derail your question because I am also interested in hearing JOx's response, but why would you care?

If you are market neutral and you trade in the direction the market is moving why concern yourself with why the market is moving one way or the other or what is causing the movement?  I make a big distinction between "trading" and "investing" - investors need to be careful and aware of the moves, but traders really only need to be market neutral and strictly follow a disciplined set of trading rules to be able to capitalize on market movement - regardless of the reason for the move.

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Dogs, I'm not a trader, and

Dogs, I'm not a trader, and I don't have any money in the market, although I consider myself an "investor" of sorts.   I hear where you're coming from, even if i don't completely get it, hehe, still learnin'!

I'm more interested in it for a decent explanation of HOW a benefit is achieved in order to either debunk or validate the concept of market manipulation, for myself.  I don't doubt it's possible, nor do I doubt that the big players have the proper lack of ethics to do it, but without a clear benefit, why do it at all?

I think and plan LONG term, as in setting up my kids as best as possible, and until recently didn't know anything about the market.  Some would argue I still don't...:)

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Re: Johnny, can you explain for

Well first off I'm looking at how the market on some days has been steadily moving down all day and then on the last hour of trading it inexplicably moves sharply up, sometimes more than 200 points.

The graphs I've posted don't show that because apparently I need to take screenshots instead of just posted the chart because it changes daily.

I don't know anything meaning I have no empirical evidence. But its seems very strange sometimes especially when it usually happens without any legitimate market force and always on the last hour of trading. I get the sense it is somehow manipulated to cut losses and bolster the stock market.

I would ad this article:

http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/cris-sheridan/is-the-entire-m...

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Excellent article

Excellent article Johnny.

Travlin 

Johnny Oxygen's picture
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Another great market "save"

Anyone else see the Dow today?

Yep down 200 all day then zoom up 360 to 168.

riiigghhhtt

I've been taking screen shot does anyone know how to post jpegs?

Doug's picture
Doug
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AU and AG

Gold and silver went from disastrously down to only moderately down.  UGH

Doug

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