How would you hande it?

craig

the way i would handle this is i would do my research and include the whole family in it.

personally i would not build a log cabin. log cabins are the romantic expression of an old failed paradigm. it is a tremendous waste of a precious natural resource. the lesson of the crash course is to me we have to be wiser in our uses of our resources. my guiding light in this journey has been bucky fuller who i saw in 1975. his mantra was to do more with less. there have been great strides in building technology which will be less impactful and more energy efficient. i would start looking at recycled materials. find people in your area that are building green.

engage the family in exploring all the options. make it fun make it an adventure. i would drop the talk of economic collapse............doesnt sound like much fun ya know. i would frame it in terms of how we can make our lives better, more resilient, more flexible, more enjoyable. how can we enrich our lives and make the world a better place at the same time and what is it that is important to us.

"be the change you wish to see in the world"

gandhi

look into finding people who are like minded and talk about community. there are many options in intentional community. eco-villages, co housing, etc.

"love does not dominate it cultivates "

goethe

om shanti

joe

My wife used to get angry as well. I decided that trying to dump everything I had learned on her at the same time was a mistake - it's overwhelming for people who are unprepared. You have to remember that most of us have come to this over a period of months or years, researching and talking and reading as much as possible.

You can't expect (I discovered) someone to respond well to, "Hi, honey, guess what? The world as we know it is ending soon and we need to stockpile food and guns," without doing a little prep work.

I revised my approach, reading articles to her occasionally, pointing out things I saw online, etc. Gradually she started to see what I was seeing. I was rewarded when, one day, she arrived home with 50 pound sacks of flour, rice and beans and storage containers for all of it.

I'm still further along the path than she is, but she is now a willing partner in our ongoing learning and preparation process. We're planting a garden together and even getting the boy (10) involved. It's a process. She'll come around.

Arthur 

Both my mother and my husband are this way, but I see their eyes opening up.  Opening their eyes still doesn't mean they are open-minded about this issue, and I think you should be careful about how you approach the subject with her.  Ask her what her opinions are and listen to what does and does not concern her.  You might learn a little from her as well.  Then only after she starts talking about it you might want to argue (very passively) about the issue and give her correct information about what she is speculating about.  You don't need to give her information about what she doesn't care about, though, because... she doesn't care.  The biggest hurdle is getting them to care.

"Be prepared to shoulder the burden all by yourself- it is good practice for extreme conditions. "

That is where I am, yosh. My wife will never change. There are any number of people who will find themselves in immediate dire circumstances and say "this can't be happening". If alone, whatever happens to them, happens.

SG

Unfortunately, Craig, I am in a similar boat.  Our problems have been a long time coming.  Since my income was cut in half in 1995, I have been trying to get my wife to agree to sell our expensive 100-year-old house and move into something more affordable.  She seems to see it as a blow to her self-esteem if we are forced to downsize.  She's good about not blowing money on credit cards, but she gives things to our adult children who are in better financial shape than we are, and she has serious costly medical problems for which we are barely insured.  Unfortunately, during the past year alone, we have increased our home equity debt by $50,000 because we can't keep up with our mortgage, cost of living, and her medical problems.  Still my wife refuses to downsize.  My depression about our financial condition contributed to the $ problem this year; I have been less productive in my business because I have become so depressed.  Vicious cycle.

We have found an urban community 100 miles north of here where there are beautiful old houses that we could buy for cash if we were to sell our house now.  My wife refuses to consider it.  She wants to turn our house into a B&B.  Imagine that: a B&B in this economy!

I have busted my behind helping with my wife's church, so I was able to get my wife to watch the CC as a quid pro quo.  It didn't matter.  She believes that Obama will save us, as if he was pursuing drastically different policies.

Every month, we go deeper and deeper into debt, and I am scared.  I don't know what to do.  I will take small steps: try to recover from my depression, reduce costs in my business, pick up my marketing, and show the DVD to network with others.  However, the best that these steps will do is slow down our deficit spending; we still will be living above our means, and increasing our debt every month. 

As much as I love my wife, I hate to think that divorce might be in our future.  God bless.

...with my wife.  I've been learning about this subject since I read The Long Emergency about 4 years ago (and PowerDown, Deep Economy, What to Do When All He!! Breaks Loose, and numerous other books/blogs).  For years she adamantly shut down any attempt on my part to discuss.  But...

 With the meltdown last Fall, she'd discuss it a bit (until she'd get scared and then shut down [I've been learning ways to discuss the whole dilly w/out freaking her out {difficult but not impossible}]).  I've used that opening to create further discussion.  She's at least at the point of realizing things are going to change, but doesn't accept that it's likely to be epochal.  

 As of yesterday I ordered some survival food supplies (which are, of course, backordered at least a month!).  Pitiful small amount, but what we can afford for now.  I presented it to her as a fait accompli;  she didn't flip.  I take this as a good sign.  To a certain extent, my willingness to spend my portion of our free cash on dehydrated food is helping the idea sink in -- I'm not just tripping on the apocalypse;  I'm serious.

And for the first time I floated the idea that if TSHTF, our best option would be to skedaddle to my grandparents' farm in Iowa.  She doesn't like the idea (I don't want to move either [from the Hudson Valley of NY]) -- but planting that seed now will make it easier if push comes to shove to leave 95% of our Stuff, load up the pickup, and getouttadodge.  At least that's my thinking in planting that idea in her head.  But we all know about "best plans" don't we.  [grin]

The next big hurdle will be the Gun Discussion. 

By the by, this is my first post.  This place (and about 98% of ya'lls) is a totally rockin' spot.  Pardon my vernacular/let me re-phrase:  it (and you guys) are an indispensable resource for me...a verititable cornucopia of thoughtful analysis and advice.

 Viva! 

1440,

Forget the CC; go see a marriage counselor. I'm not kidding. You're in a terrible spot and you need to see if you and your wife can hear each other again and be a couple.  Ask if she'll see a counselor together and don't imply she's the "bad guy." This is my profession.

Propa, my wife doesn't care about recycling, does not think about anything outside of  her work and our 27 y.o. son. I look at the top of the garbage and pull out the metals and plastic and bring them to the garage bins to be recycled every week. She does not care about global warming, oil, you name it. We agree on many issues but she does not have an activist bone in her body. If a freeway were planned to run through main street of our small town, I'd be out there with picket sign blocking the street and she would say "it'll never happen, don't worry about it." Even my neighbors think she is unreachable.

SG

Dara,

Good suggestion about Dave Ramsey.  We read his first book years ago, and it might be time to look at it again.  However, she usually doesn't go out and blow a lot of money.  She spends on the kids, but not to an extreme extent; it is a problem mainly because of our $ situation.  Mostly, she clings to the expensive house.  Honestly, if Dave Ramsey worked with us day and night, I cannot imagine any way that we could break even on monthly expenses, much less pay down debt, without getting rid of the house. 

I talk to my wife for hours on end about renovations and figures for the B&B.  I am not the least bit handy, but I have signed up for classes on renovations for this purpose.  She does extensive research on B&Bs, and I listen to her ideas.  I keep pushing for more figures.  Even if occupancy rates never decline, which I think they will, we would not start paying down debt for years; it takes that long to turn a proft.  I think that the SWHTF before then.  Even if the economy was great, she has too many medical problems and too little time, considering her many other commitments with work, adult kids, church, etc.  I tell her that I would be happy to try a B&B if we didn't have a mortgage and fast-growing home equity hanging over our heads; we could try a debt-free B&B if we moved 100 miles north of here.  However, her main motivation for the B&B is to hang onto this house.  She refuses to consider moving 100 miles away because our adult kids might rarely visit us there (possibly true).  Her friends encourage her to do a B&B because her personality is a perfect fit (true) and she loves and knows a lot about history (also true).  I could maybe see a B&B working in a destination area for the super rich; they will keep playing after the SHTF.  However, our B&B would not attract billionaires, and I think that middle class tourism will be wiped out if the SHTF.

Thank you so much for your input.

SG,

Ironically, it's my profession, too.  (Well not exactly.  I do child psych; not marital.)  Four problems:

1.  Been there, done that with counseling.  Somewhere in the range of 50-100 sessions over the course of 31 years of marriage.  Always at my request.  Nothing in the past 13 years after income plummeted due to managed care.  (We have never talked about $ in marital sessions, so I guess you never know...)

2.  Of course, it costs $ to try it again, which in our case requires more debt.  Of course, it obviously would be well worth it if results can be reasonably anticipated.  See #1 above.

3.  My wife would resent being dragged into counseling again.  When I recently brought up the idea of a financial mediator, she told me that I like "to spend money on" those types of things, and I just need to continue doing it her way.

4.  My wife would tell a counselor that she can fix our finances with a B&B, and what am I going to say?  She's already overextended with time commitments, she has major medical problems, and I don't believe that tourism will do well during the next decade or so.  Counselors would understand the first two points, but my wife would make sure that we loop on the third one.  In my experience, most counselors would roll their eyes about CC beliefs.  (Try some meds.)

If history is any guide, I anticipate that my wife would not hear feedback about sustainability.  (Everything will be okay.)  And I already understand how humiliated she would feel if we downsized in the same community after more than a decade of declining standard of living.  So I have offered to downsize here or to move somewhere else.

Hi 1440,

Sorry to hear your past attempts weren't helpful; I did not mean to sound glib about counselling. Some situations are just pretty tough to deal with. You have probably thought through aspects of your relationship in ways that a website thread reader can only speculate about, with no real benefit to you. I guess you can only try to keep other supports around yourself as you try to make tough decisions in a difficult situation. I hope it turns out as well as it can for you all.

SG

1440 minutes, you are on a one-way street to bankruptcy and financial ruin.

I am not in the habit of quoting Warren Buffet, but he says, "In the financial world, leverage [credit] is really the only way that an intelligent person can get into serious trouble." 

  Do you mean to say that you are borrowing money to fund your regular operating expenses?  In business that's called the "Death Spiral."  When a company starts doing this, it's future is sealed. 

You are in serious trouble.  You must stop spending money which you do not have!

The idea of using debt to finance regular and recurring expenses should be taken off the table immediately.  It is not a viable option; it never is.  If you can't meet expenses using your regular income, then it means you can't afford them.  If you must use credit to meet occasional, unforeseen expenses, then you are still living above your means.  Good financial management means covering your expenses with a modest surplus left over to be saved for unexpected emergencies.  Insurance should cover all catastrophic events which exceed your ability to cover with savings.  That's what insurance is for.  "Non-self liquidating debt" should not enter into the equation.  Move into a one-room shack if you need to, but do not live above your means. 

It seems to me that your problem is characterized not so much by financial ignorance, but rather by the lack of a financial model in dealing with your wife.  Who is rational and who is irrational, who is right and who is wrong, is completely beside the point.  In the end, you must make financial decisions together.

May I suggest that love and money are two separate things.  I loathe the tradition of expensive wedding rings, because it implies that money (gold in particular) is part of the bond of marriage.  This is hogwash, and dates from the days when the wife was the financial ward of the husband, unable to own or dispose of property on her own.  Today, marriage is a union of financial equals.  Hence, the arguments about money which follow: each spouse feels that they are entitled to an equal say in the finances.  This leads to trouble, since one person must always yield.  If the irrational person happens to be more stubborn, then their wishes become reality.  This is hardly a logical way of making financial decisions.

Love and money are separate.  Love should be pursued with all tenderness, care, and affection.  Money, on the other hand, should be handled with all the precision and business-like attitude of an accountant or banker.  Love has one formula for success; money has another.  You could not expect success in love if you treat it as a business, and you cannot expect financial success if you treat money as love.

If your views on money, or how to spend it, are significantly different from those of your wife, then ideally your finances should be completely separate.  Two people cannot steer the same boat in different directions at the same time.  It is not possible.

Separate finances eliminate angry disagreements over how to use funds.  If I want something and can afford it on my own, I buy it.  But if the purchase is too large for me to afford, then instead of arguing endlessly over what we will do with "our" money, separate finances promotes an attitude of negotiation and persuasion, since I must convince you to use "your" money, over which I have no sense of entitlement or ownership. 

I can attest that the system works very well.  My significant other is very stubborn -- almost as stubborn as me.  But would-be arguments on the subject of money are replaced by one of us attempting to lure the other into various "joint ventures."  If she cannot convince me to support her venture, then the venture fails -- or she pursues the "venture" (i.e., a new car) on her own.  Of course each person is bound by their obligation to support shared expenses.  But there is diplomacy instead of argument.  I might postulate that a marriage in the modern American sense is not really a marriage at all -- it is a joint venture, since neither the husband nor the wife is prepared to sacrifice their right to make financial decisions.  If we would recognize things for what they are, everything would go far more smoothly.

Might I suggest at least a partial separation of finances, at least in practice.  Clearly, since you are married, your debts are shared, but since your wife has severe medical problems, any probate court would likely make you assume virtually all of the debts in the event of a divorce.  She claims that a B&B would solve your financial problems.  That may be true.  But at the same time it is a large risk.  You are completely within your rights to say that you are not comfortable assuming that risk, especially given your existing debt burden. 

Take your own paycheck and put it toward expenses. She should take her paycheck and do the same. (If she has no paycheck, then she should get a fixed percentage of yours.)  No additional debt.  This should force rational decisions very quickly.  You must have an agreement that neither one of you can assume debt without the other's consent.  If your wife insists that a B&B would solve your problems, then draw up a post-marital agreement making it clear that any further debts  along these lines are entirely her responsibility.  Post-martial agreements are less enforceable than pre-marital agreements, but they carry significant weight.  If your wife refuses to enter into an agreement, and assumes additional debt against your wishes, then you must ask yourself serious questions about the basis of your relationship.  Force a decision on this matter now, rather than later. 

Your debts are only a means of deferring important decisions between you are your wife.  Debt is a tool of procrastination, delay, and denial.  The longer your defer the decisions, the worse the outcome will be.

Further note, Jim Kunstler wrote over at kunstler.com:

"I
suspect that in a few weeks, or possibly even a few days, Mr. Obama
will have to start announcing all kinds of new and more drastic
measures that will shock the stunned American public--things like bank
holidays, nationalizations, etc."

Imagine that happens, and if
your partner really is shocked, you will be there, at least mentally
prepared. You'll be supportive and knowledgeable and able to tell your
partner how and why this happened. 

ceci1ia,

In our case, communication isn't the problem.  We have covered our feelings in exhaustive detail, but it hasn't mattered one bit.  Today, I was stronger and more assertive.  See my previous response to jrf29.  God bless.

Hey gang --

 Just wanted to update -- the wife, who was pretty much not down with the CC scenario, is now at least working w/me on small-scale things (we're buying canned goods/rice/talking about solar-chargeable flashlights, etc.).  

The turning point was when I just started to pitch my ideas about preparing in terms of "whether or not we have collapse, this is a good [or at least harmless {i.e., whether or not we need the canned/stored food during a crisis, we can eventually eat it regardless so it's not a wasted effort}] thing to do."  Buying bogolights is a good idea whether or not we have collapse because every year we have 3-4 major power outages (24+ hours) and therefore flashlights that'll never be out of batteries is a sound idea.

 So, FWIW, that may be a good pitch for other folks' reluctant/too-scared-to-consider-it spouses/SOs.  Still have no clue how to negotiate the firearms thang...

Snowing here in the Hudson Valley, Sager