Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of financial solutions?

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DrKrbyLuv's picture
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Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of financial solutions?

First, thank you Chris for helping me to understand that our current monetary system has an inherent flaw that must be fixed before we can ever hope to reassert stability and prosperity.

The huge but subtle problem that Chris mentions is debt, or more specifically, the interest from the debt. As stated in "Crash Course Chapter 8: The Fed - Money Creation" - all dollars are loaned into existence at interest - which is compounded. This has led to an unavoidable and predictable exponential growth in the amount of money that must be created, by more debt, just to service all past debt in the system. The economy has collided with the hard reality of the mathematics. We are like a dog chasing its tail -destined to figure out our dilemma or to expire in the chase.

Few seem to grasp this problem and yet fewer offer any real solutions. Go back to a commodity currency (gold and silver) you say? No, that does nothing to stop the eventual exponential growth of servicing interest from all outstanding debt. The gold notes would surely be more welcome by our creditors than a fiat currency but it does nothing to change the variables in the failed debt-interest equation.

In my research I have found only one lone voice that speaks to the very core of the problem. Mike Montagne's "Mathematically Perfected Economy" offers a "singular integral solution to 1) inflation and deflation, 2) systemic manipulation of the cost or value of money or property, and 3) inherent, irreversible multiplication of debt in proportion to a circulation."

I urge others to visit Mike's site to review what he has been saying since at least 1979. I am not smart enough to say he has found the "holy grail" of economic solutions but I am open minded and observant enough to recognize that he is closer than any other remedy I've encountered.   

Be forewarned that Mike is a prolific writer and the reading is not always easy - but I assure you it is more than worthwhile!

Your comments will be most appreciated.    

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

Great post.

Mike mathematically proves with his computer model that all economic models based on any form of interest are terminal by default.

We, the people of the world denounce your claim of ownership of the world for it is through fraud, deception and usury that you have made yourself the rulers of humankind. You have committed every evil in your goal for world hegemony and have become drunk with the blood of the innocents.No longer shall we sit idle by allowing your agenda to stay hidden behind the veil. We shall unite with a common purpose and with a common goal to spread the knowledge of your tyranny across the globe and to demand justice until the world is free from the slavery and perdition you have created on this earth.

Join us:

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http://endthefedusa.ning.com

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

DrKrbyLuv wrote:
Few seem to grasp this problem and yet fewer offer any real solutions.

In my research I have found only one lone voice that speaks to the very core of the problem.

What about Nate's work at Economic Edge? I thought he has proposed a solution, following the work of Bill Still, "The Secret of Oz."

He says, "It's not what backs the money, it's who controls the quantity"

Let me know your thoughts on this - I've read enough of your posts to know that you (and others) have a far greater grasp of this then do I.

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

I found the site full of waffle, irrelevant pictures and quotes of US presidents -- but not a single equation.

Maybe I missed where he explains, models and proofs his theory?

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

Maybe we're not speaking apples-to-apples yet. Did you read this? There's a 6 page outline at the top and then there's a 28 page longer version below that. While you're right - I didn't see many equations, I didn't see lots of pictures or quotes, either.

I try to read his blog daily, but a lot of times, the info is too technical and goes over my head. I had lunch with guy one day, and he seemd like a pretty sharp guy to me.

Are you reading "Freedom's Vision"?

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

Hello all,

Thanks for digging up this old post from 2008.  This is the basis of our financial crisis.

I've been a big fan of Mike Montagne as he was the first to open my eyes to the inherent and terminal flaw of interest debt.  The problem is that virtually all of our money is created through debt, and it is extinguished as the principal is repaid; it ceases to exist.  Money, under our debt based system is only temporary - in a way it is a perishable public utility - we have no permanent money.  The interest charges on new debt, unlike the principal, is not created.  Interest obligations must be taken from the existing circulation.

Chris Martenson explains this mathematical certainty as only a great teacher can in "Crash Course #8, The Fed - Money Creation"

"Because our debt-based money system is growing by some percentage continually, it is an exponential system by its very design.  A corollary of this is that the amount of debt in the system will always exceed the amount of money (see chart below).

All of which leads us to the Fourth Key Concept, which is that perpetual expansion is a requirement of modern banking. In fact we can make a rule: Each year, new credit (loans) must be made that at least equal the amount of all the outstanding interest payments that year. Without a continuous expansion of the money supply, past debts would not be able to be serviced, and defaults would ripple through, and possibly destroy, the entire system.  - Dr. Martenson Crash Course #8, The Fed - Money Creation

Back during the early 1980's, Mike Montagne submitted a mathematical model to the Reagan administration that clearly showed that debt would grow exponentially - it simply could not be sustained.  Below is a graph of his findings:

That was 30 years ago, Mike prophetically projected that debt would become unsustainable somewhere around 2009-2012 as the chart above shows.  He could not know then what interest rates might prevail and this important variable affects the calculated end date.  You can download his spreadsheet and see that if the rate of interest grows, the collapse is expedited.  

You can also see that by reducing the interest (quanitive easing and zirp) the system may be artificially sustained, at least for awhile.  My personal opinion is that this flaw in design was intended, the international banking cartel that owns and controls the private Federal Reserve wants us to be be in perpetual debt that can never be repaid.  By claiming the future labor and productivity of our nation, we are effectively enslaved.   

We find ourselves in a terrible situation - that is that our money supply is solely in the hands of a private and unaccountable group of elite power brokers.  If we are to move forward as a civilization there first must be an awakening, an understanding that our financial system may be a tool of tyranny or the key to our most basic freedoms.  It is time to take back the control of our own money.

Larry

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

Here is a great video of Mike Montagne (after the 3 minute intro):

Larry

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

Larry,

Looking at that website and watching the first three videos brings me much closer to Tapani's point of view than yours.   The website is a mess.  It is very hard to read with links all over the place and the narrow paragraphs in two columns.  The video's seem to spend more time talking about how he has found the perfect economy than explaining just exactly what that is.  He slams Ron Paul's solutions to the problems we all face and mocks any comparision between Ron Paul and people like Jefferson, but then goes on and imply something like, "Jefferson would have agreed with me".  As far as I know Ron Paul has never compared himself to Jefferson, only his followers do.  Mr Montagne's videos and writings make him seem arrogant which is a bit of a turn off for me.   Maybe if I could find out what exactly MPE is, that arrogance may be justified.  Until then I am left with the impression, "Where's the beef?".

I know you are a smart guy and have fully thought through this stuff yourself.  Can you point at a quick summary or link to a video that actually explains what he is talking about?  I have probably spent an hour wandering around reading and waching videos but still don't know exactly what MPE is and how it will work.

Thanks,

Joel

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

Hi Joel,

I'm a fan of Mike Montagne but not of his website Wink

He was very early to mathematically document the fatal flaw of our monetary system (exponential growth of debt) and he was correct in identifying interest as a problem.  If you are looking for the "meat" you will find it in his spreadsheets and equations - not in his words.  

His alternative, the Mathematically Perfected Economy, is only conceptually explained.  The program is his intellectual property and the equations and variables are guarded as a secret.  If you are looking for those, they aren't there or weren't the last time I looked.  

He seems to hold some resentment toward many held as monetary experts as they have had little interest or appreciation for his work.  He has also accused some of stealing his ideas.  For example, he got into a spat with Ellen Brown and Steve Zarlinga.

As far as Ron Paul and Austrian economics, I agree with Mike, they are wrong when it comes to financial solutions and alternatives.  I really like Ron Paul's positions on many things but economics are not one.   

Regardless, I think Mike is extremely bright and was ahead of his time by using computer modeling for macroeconomics.  Now, monetary reform is becoming more popular but he seems to be left out.   

I wish he would re-do his website as the message seems to be jumbled.  You have to work to find the important stuff and then, invariably, some details are missing.

Larry   

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

Ok, yes he is right... and the only way to perpetuate an economy is his way ... it would be a flat line on a graph ...no up cycles or down...just flat for 10,000 years...if we were computers or robots and lived perfect world... maybe...but we do not!  We live in a mean, unforgiving world of humans dealing with reality ...each and every day...!  And we want to better our selves...we want to progress this is a biological imperative...!!!

Here is where fantasy meets reality...here is where his system while is absolutely correct and irrefutable...will not work for biological systems.

There can be no progress with out interest...there is no market with out interest...so while interest is like sugar to a fat man... too much will kill...but he still needs some.

The only viable, reasonable system is one the RP Austrians advocate that of ups and downs ...not a flat line ...but a pulse.  What we are seeing now is not a pulse... but a heart attack. RP solution is far from perfect... but is is good enough ... to insure freedom and liberty and an adequate pursuit of happiness.

All biological systems must cycle...(Rest and Grow)  (Live and Die) to get ...better (more efficient for the situation...ecology) but never perfect..."live" the more efficiently they cycle the longer they live... and as Dr, Paul teaches us "economics is about Human actions... biological systems.  So you need a lot of little ups and lot of little downs in a cyclic timed system...you also need to allow poor systems to fail so their is progress, reset sometimes too.

Here is the final word... see the system we have now is too hot, will fail very soon,his system is too cold and may never fail... but Dr. Paul's system is just right for our desire to balance freedom and liberty with our desire to pursue the most happiness...for the longest time.

He is right... and his MPE will last 100,000 years ... but who wants to live like that!

I do not want to drink from his holy grail...it just cost me too much...but not in interest ...just life..

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

Larry wrote:

I wish he would re-do his website as the message seems to be jumbled.  You have to work to find the important stuff and then, invariably, some details are missing.

Hi Larry,

You know from previous posts that I am totally onside that the world's debt-based monetary system is 'the very heart of the beast', and must be destroyed to literally save mankind from a future of total slavery and oppression.

I have searched for alternatives and was excited to learn of the MPE site, but after 2 hours of trying to cut through the distractions, sadly I given up in total frustration.

If you can post anything on his 'solutions', I'd appreciate it. J

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

drgizmo wrote:

There can be no progress with out interest...there is no market with out interest...so while interest is like sugar to a fat man... too much will kill...but he still needs some.

While interest charges have become the "norm" in our economy, that doesn't mean that they are necessary or even desirable.  For example, why should a bank collect interest on money they never had until someone borrowed it?  It is free money for them.  The collect interest because they hold a monopoly to create money - not because they add any value.

If money is created for free, why not charge a service fee instead of interest to pay for credit check, collections, etc.  It can be done and is being done through Muslim sharia law.

drgizmo wrote:

... and as Dr, Paul teaches us "economics is about Human actions... biological systems. So you need a lot of little ups and lot of little downs in a cyclic timed system...you also need to allow poor systems to fail so their is progress, reset sometimes too...see the system we have now is too hot, will fail very soon,his system is too cold and may never fail... but Dr. Paul's system is just right for our desire to balance freedom and liberty with our desire to pursue the most happiness...for the longest time.

Ron Paul has suggested that interest rates were too low and he would address the problem by raising them.  If you take the Crash Course, you will see the debt grows exponentially and cannot be sustained in our debt based system.  By raising the interest rate, we just accelerate the growth of interest debt.

Tell me how Ron Paul's suggestions help the economy?

Larry 

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

DrKrbyLuv wrote:

drgizmo wrote:

There can be no progress with out interest...there is no market with out interest...so while interest is like sugar to a fat man... too much will kill...but he still needs some.

While interest charges have become the "norm" in our economy, that doesn't mean that they are necessary or even desirable.  For example, why should a bank collect interest on money they never had until someone borrowed it?  It is free money for them.  The collect interest because they hold a monopoly to create money - not because they add any value.

If money is created for free, why not charge a service fee instead of interest to pay for credit check, collections, etc.  It can be done and is being done through Muslim sharia law.

I don't think anyone is advocating banks charging interest on money that is created out of thin air.  The question is if someone is putting their own capital at risk, should they be allowed to charge interest?  I certainly don't have a problem with that and if you don't think they should charge interest, then I have a question for you: "Can you lend me some cash?"

DrKrbyLuv wrote:

drgizmo wrote:

... and as Dr, Paul teaches us "economics is about Human actions... biological systems. So you need a lot of little ups and lot of little downs in a cyclic timed system...you also need to allow poor systems to fail so their is progress, reset sometimes too...see the system we have now is too hot, will fail very soon,his system is too cold and may never fail... but Dr. Paul's system is just right for our desire to balance freedom and liberty with our desire to pursue the most happiness...for the longest time.

Ron Paul has suggested that interest rates were too low and he would address the problem by raising them.  If you take the Crash Course, you will see the debt grows exponentially and cannot be sustained in our debt based system.  By raising the interest rate, we just accelerate the growth of interest debt.

Tell me how Ron Paul's suggestions help the economy?

Larry 

Larry,

How did this become an thread about Ron Paul?   You started this thread about "Mike Montagne discovering the holy grail of  financial solutions" but have offered up little of actual substance.  Several people have commented on how unimpressed we were with Mr Montagne's positions and website, yet the only response so far is to attack Ron Paul.

I am sorry but I would take 1 Ron Paul over 100 arrogant Mike Montagne's any day of the week!

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

DrKrbyLuv wrote:

Ron Paul has suggested that interest rates were too low and he would address the problem by raising them.  If you take the Crash Course, you will see the debt grows exponentially and cannot be sustained in our debt based system.  By raising the interest rate, we just accelerate the growth of interest debt.

Tell me how Ron Paul's suggestions help the economy?

Larry 

The system breaks faster, it collapses sooner and then we have to really address the situation.  How many times have we read it here - meaningful change can only happen after a severe shock to the system.

Interest debt levels in this country are already nearly unpayable.  Collapsing the system stabs the beast in the heart and we pick up and move on from there.

Although I don't think that's what Ron Paul has in mind....

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

DrKrbyLuv wrote:

drgizmo wrote:

There can be no progress with out interest...there is no market with out interest...so while interest is like sugar to a fat man... too much will kill...but he still needs some.

While interest charges have become the "norm" in our economy, that doesn't mean that they are necessary or even desirable.  For example, why should a bank collect interest on money they never had until someone borrowed it?  It is free money for them.  The collect interest because they hold a monopoly to create money - not because they add any value.

If money is created for free, why not charge a service fee instead of interest to pay for credit check, collections, etc.  It can be done and is being done through Muslim sharia law.

Forget about banks for a moment. Even in an economy of individual actors, interest provides the incentive for the lender to forego spending money, and instead hand it over (at some risk of not being repaid) to a borrower who promises to pay it back later. Under the Islamic system, the lender's return is usually categorized as a return on equity, to avoid the prohibition on usury. But whether it's called interest or return on equity, an incentive is needed to induce lending. No one will give up hard-earned purchasing power and assume the risk of non-repayment without an incentive. This is equally true if they are lending gold, grub or guns rather than a currency.

Besides providing no incentives, Montagne assumes that valuation is a simple, straightforward issue. It isn't. In some areas, houses are selling for half the price in 2010 that they commanded in 2006. Which price is the 'correct' valuation? There is no objective answer. Also, what about unsecured lending, where there's no property to value? Montagne describes only secured lending.

Tapani is right that Montagne writes bizarrely. Like an overgrown child, he seems concerned with social status, with the approbation of long-ago teachers, with documenting his own early genius. Yet for all his harping on the necessity for mathematical proof, Montagne offers only rhetorical proofs. His childhood teachers' alleged amazement at his precocity may well exist only in his own overheated imagination. The man is a patently obsessed, mad-inventor blowhard. His tortured, stilted, faux-formal syntax conceals the tiny squirrel brain that generates it, huffing furiously on the diminutive hamster wheel squeaking inside Montange's oddly enlarged cranium.

What a shame that Montagne didn't devote all his 73 IQ points to solving the long-standing problem of perpetual motion. 'Free energy' would provide the necessary economic surplus to overcome the burden of ever-escalating interest charges on loaned-into-existence money.

BINGO! KA-CHING! THAT'S IT -- the mathemetically perfect economy, fueled by free energy! Remember folks, when I receive the Nobel Prize, that the glorious original insight happened right here, today, in this exalted thread.

* scratches head and stares thoughtfully at spinning hamster wheel *

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

Welcome to the Machine (head) -

Quite possibly the best post of the New Year.

You cynic you - and I hardly detected a note of sarcastic flaying anywhere in the post.

But can you source your assertion that Montagne has (had) 73 IQ points?

Keep 'em coming mh, great post.

Perhaps a name change to deus ex machina is in order - what with the perpetual motion hamster thingie and all????

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

Well I’m quite sure I’ll be stepping in it by chiming in, but here goes. I’m sure what was meant by egregious interest was the issue of banks, specifically central banks, creating money out of thin air and charging interest on this fabricated fiat currency.

To some extent this is also what happens at the regional level when banks take your deposits and loan out 900% more than they take in. I’m not sure the issue is begrudging a capitalist a fair ( or even unfair) return on his investment, if he has money to lend, he deserves a return. If he is fabricating out of thin air, I would not think this is the same case.

Regarding Montagne,  I was also intrigued to review his material, but like others, I found there does not seem to be enough substance to support the excitement. However, the premise that a systems engineering model can capture economic behavior, and predict results is quite valid.

Like all analytical models, the accuracy is only as good as the assumptions they are built on. And to be sure, wildly varying results (even contradictory results) can be seen depending on how the model is constructed. When a “inventor” masks his methods and claims proprietary means would be disclosed if he were to allow peer review, red flags go up.

I also suspect any analytical model that runs on a spreadsheet is a littlie underpowered. I would expect that a properly calibrated model would make extensive use of simultaneous differential equations, and not lend itself to a spreadsheet application. I would expect it to require a systems engineering application, with quite a bit more horsepower than a simple spreadsheet, as I believe that solving a economic model using static case studies is the root of many errors, as dynamics is likely needed to capture the non linear, constantly varying  behavior.

I’ve also seen Steve Keens’ work on this subject, and he seems to be addressing the very same approach that Montagne purports with a lot more transparency. The videos on his site go into more detail on the modeling methods, his equations are presented (briefly) in the video, and I believe you can download his models from his website.

It is interesting to note that his models do not come to the same conclusion that Montange does.

I wonder why.

http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2010/01/22/google-lower-bandwidth-ver...

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

Hello all,

First, I'll concede that Mike Montagne's website is jumbled as his message. 

My personal opinion is that Mike was early, probably the first, to model the mathematical certainty that we would collapse in interest debt.  He's a computer programmer by trade and built economic models that were sent to the Carter Administration (according to Mike Montagne, he certified receipt and content).

"...we can readily write a computer process to service debt and maintain any conceivable circulation, accounting furthermore for processes such as bankruptcy acting to diminish debt, until the costs of servicing debt exceed the circulation."  - link

Later he sent the models to the first Reagan administration in the early 1980s.  He says that "In substantial intercourse with the Reagan Administration, I offered and provided his staff with substantial material over his first term in office."  Mike claims that David Stockman; Director of the Office of Management and Budget (1981–1985), had a keen interest in his modeling projections.

"We ran a great breadth of numbers (interest, circulation growth, bankruptcy, etc.) through those models in the early 1980s. Given the double-digit interest and price inflation we suffered as Reagan took office, I was mildly surprised how far into the future it was possible to extend the lifespan by aggressive de-escalation of interest rates."  - link 

Here are some of the projections that were run over 30 years ago:

  1. The Reagan would triple the national debt in two terms.
  2. The adjusted maximum "possible" lifespan of our system at approximately 2015 A.D.
  3. The practical lifespan projected at 2010 AD.

Mike correctly identified "interest" as as a parasitic load (usury) that would starve the host, our economy.  And, he quantified the growth of interest debt.  He should be afforded some credibility now that his projections have been validated.

I don't agree with Mike's overall solution - eliminate all interest; though I think it is mathematically sound.  I think a gradual process needs employed whereby existing institutions have time to change their model.  Also, I think a better solution is mix some "debt free" with "interest free" money.           

machinehead wrote:

Forget about banks for a moment. Even in an economy of individual actors, interest provides the incentive for the lender to forego spending money, and instead hand it over (at some risk of not being repaid) to a borrower who promises to pay it back later.

No doubt, if I lend my personal money at risk and inconvenience, I deserve a return.  But you can't "forget" about banks because that is an entirely different, bigger, lending source.  

Banks are not lending "their" money, they are creating it on the spot for free.  The borrower initiates and backs up the new money by signing a promissory note and putting up collateral.  Why shouldn't banks be reimbursed by fees instead of interest charges?  Why should they seize collateral that they never paid for?

Another difference stems from the fact that when a bank creates money through debt, it is also extinguished it upon repayment.  When we lend our money, we neither create it nor extinguish it, we just transfer what is available.

machinehead wrote:

Also, what about unsecured lending, where there's no property to value? Montagne describes only secured lending.

I think I can accurately say that Montagne would have no legal unsecured lending.  Equity would be required to protect the system.

machinehead wrote:

Yet for all his harping on the necessity for mathematical proof, Montagne offers only rhetorical proofs.

Mike's modeling projections have been well documented - he's been right.  Disagree with his solutions if you will, but acknowledge his history.

goes211 wrote:

How did this become an thread about Ron Paul?

I didn't bring up Ron Paul, I was responding to drgizmo's post.  But since you bring it up, I think Montagne prooved Austrian and Kenysian economists to be wrong.  First, he measure inflation/deflation completely different and second, he brings the exponential growth of debt into the equation.  Since that time, many have verified the certainty that a debt based system like ours, cannot be sustained.  For more details, check out my earlier post "Austrian & Keynesian Theories Vs. Mathematical Facts."

Thanks for the interesting discussion,

Larry

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

tx,

Readers of our pages have asked me to respond to this thread.

Bill Still thoroughy plagiarizes my work in his purported "Money Masters" video; and it appears we only have more of the same in his preposterous "OZ" ditty. There are literally thousands of plagiarists of my work on the interenet now; the signs are all over most of this material; and in every case, their own inabilities to identify fundamental cause expose both the facts of plagiarism and the further inability to develop solution. My work formally demonstrated thirty years ago a) that any pretended economy subject to interest ultimately and inevitably terminates itself under fatal sums of artificial debt; and b) that there is one and one only integral solution to the categoric faults of these pretended economies, namely a) inflation and deflation; b) systemic manipulation of the cost or value of money or property; and c) inherent, irreversible, and therefore terminal multiplication of artificial indebtedness in proportion to capacity to service debt.

Thirty years ago in other words, I proved that the world's "economies" would inevitably fail; that there is one and one only solution of their categoric and even terminal faults; and I further prescribed a singular means for justly converting any such pretended economy into mathematically perfected economy™.

The questions are then, is there more than one solution to inflation and deflation; is there more than one solution to systemic manipulation of the cost or value of money or property; is there more than one solution to inherent, irreversible multiplication of artificial indebtedness?

If you could prove a single exception, you would be the first to do so in 40 years -- and believe me, many people have tried. You can find categoric invalidations of their attempts all over our pages.

You say for instance that Nate at "Economic Edge" has proposed a solution. Well in fact, tens of thousands of people are now proposing "solutions." But what makes any of them "solution?"

Nothing but proof of solution.

You quote Nate for instance, "It's not what backs the money, it's who controls the quantity."

How can that possibly be? Is solution just a cherry picking contest? We decide the flavor we like, and go with that, regardless the consequences? Why is it even necessary for someone to control the quantity? And what difference does it make, whoever might, when only an obligatory schedule of fulfillment of any and every promissory obligation can possibly fulfill that vital purpose?

How can the quantity of "the money" in fact not be consistent with whatever ostensibly backs the money, in any fact of solution? Moreover, how still is inconsistency between these two factors all that we suffer, and must solve?

Even if your friend Nate's solution somehow maintained a circulation which is equal at all times to whatever property it represents, nonetheless, if any of his circulation is subject to interest, and circumstances engener dependence upon that circulation so as it is necessary to maintain a vital such circulation by perpetually re-borrowing principal and interest as ever greater sums of artificial indebtedness... then ever more of the circulation is inherently dedicated to servicing debt, leaving ever less to sustain the industry which is obligated to do so.

So, as I demonstrated 30 years ago, it is not only the inconstent quantities of circulation which we have to contend with, but bias in the disposition of the currency, which dedicates ever more of every unit to servicing ever escalated artificial indebtedness, until of course we succumb to a terminal sum of debt.

Bill Still's "original" video steals terms from my work which are absolutely foreign and mutually exclusive to his concurrent presumption that interest is tolerable; that Ron Paul advocated solution; that G. Edward Griffin justified interest, and on and on and on and on.

Jacques Jaikaran ("Debt Virus") plagiarizes my work from the first page of his "Debt Virus," stealing my Parable of Perfect Economy -- a seeming account for historic events which never happened (thus, the Parable), and which explain what Ellen Hodgson Brown later calls the Pennsylvania Currency, in MY words, issued from Franklin's mouth. Brown makes the same mistakes, not showing us why she dedicates interest to taxation (to the ruin of actual solution), or why she claims "interest" (her obfuscation of taxation) must be introduced into circulation with the principal of a debt. She has claimed in online debates with me that interest is not the issue! She has borrowed from my article titles, declaring the cause of failure to be derivatives in, "It's the Derivatives, Stupid," trailing my article, which explains fundamental cause ("It's the INTEREST, Stupid") by ten years, and proving she hasn't identified fundamental cause in the process... because she attributes failure only to recent misdealings which were inevitable from the inception of such a system, because it destroys not only credit worthiness, but the very possibility of legitimate collateralization.

So thousands of people are proposing differing "solutions," long after the fact of a proof of singular solution. Bill Stills borrows directly from my pages when he claims he always says, "Follow the money." Well in fact, in the first initial years of the official internet, the quote under the signatures of my pages became popularly quoted. The whole of it of course reads, "To find the players in all the corruption of the world, 'Follow the money.' To find the captains of world corruption, follow the money all the way."

When he claims the Fed "is neither federal nor a reserve of anything," those very words come directly from my pages. I am the original author.

Not only do these pretended authors of solution do us no service then, they in fact have only divided and confused a prospective revolution, which might well have succeeded by now otherwise.

What do I have to do, take legal action against all of them? What ARE the actual "other solutions"?

There IS no other solution to inflation and deflation, tx, but to maintain a circulation which at all times is equal to the remaining value of all represented property. There IS no other solution to inherent, irreversible multiplication of artificial indebtedness by interest, but eradication of interest. And there IS no solution to systemic manipulation of the cost or value of money or property but the integral combination of these two solutions.

I formally proved that 30 years ago, and spoke about mathematically perfected economy™ for some ten years prior. I provided the Reagan Administration with computer models which projected the failure spot on, with seemingly phenomenal accuracy, because the underlying method simply accumulates further artificial indebtedness by the very process which a bank determines your next month's interest.

Now Bill Still didn't prove the consequences of interest; and in fact he supported Ron Paul, who advocated the preposterous notion that higher interest rates would benefity us; G. Edward Griffin merely asserts interest cannot damage us; and I dipsroved his assertions long ago on my pages (even decades before he made them, without qualification).

Where IS the other solution? And why aren't you promoting the ONLY solution?

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

Tapani wrote:

I found the site full of waffle, irrelevant pictures and quotes of US presidents -- but not a single equation.

Maybe I missed where he explains, models and proofs his theory?

You have never found a formal proof and theorem in the present pseudo science of  "economics," because not only are there none, there isn't even a guiding precept which would dipose the pseudo science even to be "economic."

But you obviously aren't a credible mathematician if you fail to perceive the explicit equations in the literal material a readership obviously desires, and any credible mathematician finds incredibly obvious. Is it really unobvious to you to read exacting explanations how inflation and deflation are solved only by eradication of interest and an obligatory schedule of payment at the rate of consumption or depreciation, and you fail to realize yet that:

current circulation = principal - consumption or depreciation = remaining value of all represented property

The words express the very thing you merely claim is not there.

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

DrKrbyLuv wrote:

I've been a big fan of Mike Montagne as he was the first to open my eyes to the inherent and terminal flaw of interest debt.  The problem is that virtually all of our money is created through debt, and it is extinguished as the principal is repaid; it ceases to exist.

To further clarify what Larry is saying here, the problem is not that money is created as a debt; the problem is that ordinarily, we would create/issue our own promissory obligations ("notes") in the fashion of all other contracts.

Detractors reply without comprehensive (fully accountable) qualification, "But who would loan us 'money,' if it were not subject to interest?"

The question fails to observe that what a central banking system actually does, is intervene on our authority to issue/contract in promissory obligations TO EACH OTHER. All new money under a central banking system (or any currency subject to interest), from the first false "dollar" onward, is merely CREATED as OUR OWN PROMISSORY OBLIGATIONS TO EACH OTHER.

Ordinarily, as we fulfill these obligations, fulfilled aspects of the promissory obligation are retired from circulation. As you pay $1,000 against a $100,000 debt, the remaining obligation is reduced by retirement of paid principal, which no longer tokenizes value. What you have then in a central banking system are two blatant crimes, with the consequences of the later crime being terminal failure.

I have explained these crimes for 40 years. We are now sponsoring global initiatives for mathematically perfected economy™; and if you would like to read ten paragraphs which summarize these two crimes (followed by further explanation of the faults of the present obfuscation), then point your browser at the following URL ("Nature of Monetization"):

http://www.perfecteconomy.org/pg-amendment.html#NatureOfMonetization

NOTE to all prospective plagiarists, this explanation is already copyright material.

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

goes211 wrote:

Larry,

Looking at that website and watching the first three videos brings me much closer to Tapani's point of view than yours.   The website is a mess.  It is very hard to read with links all over the place and the narrow paragraphs in two columns.  The video's seem to spend more time talking about how he has found the perfect economy than explaining just exactly what that is.  He slams Ron Paul's solutions to the problems we all face and mocks any comparision between Ron Paul and people like Jefferson, but then goes on and imply something like, "Jefferson would have agreed with me".  As far as I know Ron Paul has never compared himself to Jefferson, only his followers do.  Mr Montagne's videos and writings make him seem arrogant which is a bit of a turn off for me.   Maybe if I could find out what exactly MPE is, that arrogance may be justified.  Until then I am left with the impression, "Where's the beef?".

I know you are a smart guy and have fully thought through this stuff yourself.  Can you point at a quick summary or link to a video that actually explains what he is talking about?  I have probably spent an hour wandering around reading and waching videos but still don't know exactly what MPE is and how it will work.

Thanks,

Joel

Well Joel, where were you during the 2008 campaign, where Ron Paul's people constantly introduced him as a modern day Jefferson?

In fact the propositions of Mr. Paul and the so called Austrian "economists" are more analogous to Alexander Hamilton, who advocated a central bank, whereas Jefferson asserted that the system of banking was more dangerous to our republic than standing armies; that the American Revolution would be defeated when government fell into the hands of the banking system; that the banking system was destructive to every principle of our Constitution.

I don't just "slam" Ron Paul's solutions; I disprove them. There's a difference. When ANYONE advocates increasing the cause of failure as a purported solution, it is incumbent upon anyone who knows better to defend actual solution, to invalidated preposterous pretended solutions, or we will fail to save our country.

Despite your trivial claims, you couldn't have read much, because ON EVERY PAGE of that website is several definitions of mathematically perfected economy™ — right at the top of EVERY page (underneath the black bar at the top). How did you get past the link to a Synopsis right at the top of the site directory?

But you're quite wrong that Mr. Paul's people weren't comparing him to Jefferson; and so in fact, can you cite a single assertion of Mr. Jefferson which rather than complaining about the very nature of the banking system as Jefferson did, instead advocates competing banks and even higher rates of interest, as Mr. Paul and all the so called Austrian "economists" perpetually advocated — not only ostensibly benefitting us by even higher rates of interest, but even by less (if any) control on Mr. Paul's advocated, private banks?

In fact, F.A. Hayek tells us the purpose of these banking systems — that they are "an extremely profitable 'business.'"

You can't ask (credibly) where the beef is, when it's right under your nose. If you can prove there's an alternate solution to inflation and deflation, do it. Where is it? How about inherent multiplication of debt by interest? Every class of attempt to do so is already disproven on those pages.

Who are you to say my video doesn't actually explain what I am talking about?

OR is it the ONLY video which actually explains, in a fully accountable manner, what "it is talking about?"

It's the ONLY video which walks you thru the math; the process of failure; and the only solution.

What exactly is it you watched or you read, that you just don't get?

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

mike_montagne wrote:

NOTE to all prospective plagiarists, this explanation is already copyright material.

Damn, there goes my plan to get rich quick.Frown

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

DrKrbyLuv wrote:

Ron Paul has suggested that interest rates were too low and he would address the problem by raising them.  If you take the Crash Course, you will see the debt grows exponentially and cannot be sustained in our debt based system.  By raising the interest rate, we just accelerate the growth of interest debt.

Tell me how Ron Paul's suggestions help the economy?

Larry

Larry's interpretation is absolutely correct:

The reason the pretended economy fails (which reason has been plagiarized and mis-stated so often) is that all currency comes into circulation not strictly as a natural promissory note would obligate the debtor to repay just the principal, but as an obfuscation which comprises an artificial monetary obligation to pay principal and interest out of a general circulation which at most is comprised of only some remaining principal. Thus to persist in servicing just the initial obligations (or artificial indebtedness to mere intervening publishers of our promissory obligations), the unassenting subjects of this process are compelled to maintain a vital circulation by perpetually re-borrowing principal and interest paid out of the general circulation in the way of servicing every such initial artificial debt.

To the extent they are compelled to re-borrow principal, it is mathematially impossible to pay down the sum of debt, as new debt takes the place of former debt which otherwise would ostensibly be resolved by payments against principal.

To the extent that it is necessary to re-borrow interest then, the sum of debt therefore perpetually increases by so much as periodic interest on an ever greater and eventually terminal sum of debt.

Thus as interest is the agent of artificial multiplication of indebtedness into terminal debt, the higher rates of interes which Mr. Paul advocates (without comprehensive explanation) inherently escalate the rate of failure, imposing failure all the sooner.

The video walks you through the math. A second grader can do the math. So what's the problem? You can show that higher rates of interest won't multiply debt all the faster, so long as we succeed in maintaining a vital circulation; or, that in the alternate case, where we can no longer afford to maintain a vital circulation (which of course defines entry into the terminal phasses of failure), that we're going to survive terminal deflation of the circulation?

By the way, Mr. Paul furthermore claims circulatory inflation only by claiming the dramatic further introductions of currency which are vital to sustain a vital circulation under the deflationary process of the obfuscated currency and its inherent escalation of indebtedness.

Though I have corrected him on this idea for 20 years, how has he shown you we actually have the dramatic increases of currency we do not have, which or course is depleted just as I have just now explained, by servicing the ever escalating sum of debt?

NO ONE can rightly claim circulatory inflation just citing what must be introduced to a perpetually deflating circulation; and, of course, thus understanding how interest multiplies artificial debt into terminal failure, we know that ACTUAL circulatory inflation would be calculated instead by: resultant circulation = previous circulation - PERIODIC COSTS OF SERVICING DEBT + further circulation artificially borrowed into circulation.

If what is coming in is not greater than what is going out (which Mr. Paul even advocates to increase by increasing interest), how then is it POSSIBLE this results in our having more circulation, despite the greater rates of borrowing which are necessitated by the very rates of interest Mr. Paul advocates increasing?

If you're interested in the answer, why don't you have Mr. Paul debate solution with me?

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

John,

An accountable explanation is an accountable explanation.  What is it in the Synopsis which you just don't get?

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

JAG wrote:

mike_montagne wrote:

NOTE to all prospective plagiarists, this explanation is already copyright material.

Damn, there goes my plan to get rich quick.Frown

Did you have something relevant to say; or were you about to point out that nobody has gotten rich, without in fact authoring solution?

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Tapani wrote:

I found the site full of waffle, irrelevant pictures and quotes of US presidents -- but not a single equation.

Maybe I missed where he explains, models and proofs his theory?

Oh, so you're Tapani; and you've proven causative failure; solution; and transition to solution?

The fundamental cause of failure is NOT that the obfuscated currency inherently and irrreversibly multiplies artificial indebtedness into terminal failure?

You can get more fundamental than that? That's "waffle?"

A second grader can't do the math?

You can solve inflation and deflation or inherent multiplication of artificial indebtedness into terminal failure without eradicating interest?

Tell us how.

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

Hi Mike,

Welcome to the site and great to have a chance to throw some questions at you!

From your website: (http://www.perfecteconomy.com/pg-synopsis.html)

Thus by abiding by only the few relevant, incontrovertible principles, we have a singular prescription for true economy in which the value of money is preserved perpetually, in all cases, by maintaining a constant 1:1 relationship between the circulation and remaining value of the represented wealth. Only by this one explicit cycle of circulation does the value of the circulation always equal the remaining value of the wealth. Only by this one explicit cycle of circulation is all the circulation at all times redeemable in exactly the wealth it is intended to represent. Only by this one explicit cycle of circulation do we pay for each other's production with an equal measure of our own. Only by this one explicit cycle of circulation are further "monetary standards" or "reserves" wholly redundant, even as those purported monetary standards or reserves are wholly incapable of protecting us from inflation and deflation, systemic manipulation of the cost or value of money or property, and inherent, terminal multiplication of debt by interest.

And so — as opposed to the present exploitation, and in understanding the present magnitude of escalating, terminal oppression — we would universally understand that under mathematically perfected economy™ instead, in the case of a $100,000 home with a 100-year lifespan, we would pay for the home at the overall rate of $1,000 per year, or $83.33 per month, simply for eliminating exploitation and its accompanying irregularities from an imposed, falsified, and purposely destructive equation.

Can you expand on this a bit? Specifically the part, 'by maintaining a constant 1:1 relationship between the circulation and remaining value of the represented wealth'

Under the, 'remaining value of represented weath', what is the value of the $100,000 house after 20 or 50 or 100 years?

What happens as productivity and/or population expands and contracts? Is the money supply equally adjusted?

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

mike_montagne wrote:

goes211 wrote:

Larry,

Looking at that website and watching the first three videos brings me much closer to Tapani's point of view than yours.   The website is a mess.  It is very hard to read with links all over the place and the narrow paragraphs in two columns.  The video's seem to spend more time talking about how he has found the perfect economy than explaining just exactly what that is.  He slams Ron Paul's solutions to the problems we all face and mocks any comparision between Ron Paul and people like Jefferson, but then goes on and imply something like, "Jefferson would have agreed with me".  As far as I know Ron Paul has never compared himself to Jefferson, only his followers do.  Mr Montagne's videos and writings make him seem arrogant which is a bit of a turn off for me.   Maybe if I could find out what exactly MPE is, that arrogance may be justified.  Until then I am left with the impression, "Where's the beef?".

I know you are a smart guy and have fully thought through this stuff yourself.  Can you point at a quick summary or link to a video that actually explains what he is talking about?  I have probably spent an hour wandering around reading and waching videos but still don't know exactly what MPE is and how it will work.

Thanks,

Joel

Well Joel, where were you during the 2008 campaign, where Ron Paul's people constantly introduced him as a modern day Jefferson?

In fact the propositions of Mr. Paul and the so called Austrian "economists" are more analogous to Alexander Hamilton, who advocated a central bank, whereas Jefferson asserted that the system of banking was more dangerous to our republic than standing armies; that the American Revolution would be defeated when government fell into the hands of the banking system; that the banking system was destructive to every principle of our Constitution.

I don't just "slam" Ron Paul's solutions; I disprove them. There's a difference. When ANYONE advocates increasing the cause of failure as a purported solution, it is incumbent upon anyone who knows better to defend actual solution, to invalidated preposterous pretended solutions, or we will fail to save our country.

Despite your trivial claims, you couldn't have read much, because ON EVERY PAGE of that website is several definitions of mathematically perfected economy™ — right at the top of EVERY page (underneath the black bar at the top). How did you get past the link to a Synopsis right at the top of the site directory?

But you're quite wrong that Mr. Paul's people weren't comparing him to Jefferson; and so in fact, can you cite a single assertion of Mr. Jefferson which rather than complaining about the very nature of the banking system as Jefferson did, instead advocates competing banks and even higher rates of interest, as Mr. Paul and all the so called Austrian "economists" perpetually advocated — not only ostensibly benefitting us by even higher rates of interest, but even by less (if any) control on Mr. Paul's advocated, private banks?

In fact, F.A. Hayek tells us the purpose of these banking systems — that they are "an extremely profitable 'business.'"

You can't ask (credibly) where the beef is, when it's right under your nose. If you can prove there's an alternate solution to inflation and deflation, do it. Where is it? How about inherent multiplication of debt by interest? Every class of attempt to do so is already disproven on those pages.

Who are you to say my video doesn't actually explain what I am talking about?

OR is it the ONLY video which actually explains, in a fully accountable manner, what "it is talking about?"

It's the ONLY video which walks you thru the math; the process of failure; and the only solution.

What exactly is it you watched or you read, that you just don't get?

Mike,

I think your many responses today go a long way to proving my point.

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

Hi Joel,

I'm a fan of Mike Montagne but not of his website Wink

He was very early to mathematically document the fatal flaw of our monetary system (exponential growth of debt) and he was correct in identifying interest as a problem.  If you are looking for the "meat" you will find it in his spreadsheets and equations - not in his words.  

Larry, how can you fairly say this? I've explained how interest inherently multiplies indebtedness every way it can rightly be explained. Your claim this site here for instance is a great teacher of the same principle; does it even correcly state it? Absolutely not. Neither does it do so in fewer words.

His alternative, the Mathematically Perfected Economy, is only conceptually explained.  The program is his intellectual property and the equations and variables are guarded as a secret.  If you are looking for those, they aren't there or weren't the last time I looked.

"Only" conceptually explained? What further way explains anything?

"The equations and variables are guarded as a secret?"

ABSOLUTELY NOT! Since the early 1980s, the models I provided the Reagan Administration were available COMPLETE WITH SOURCE CODE. There isn't an iota of hidden logic; the theses are sufficiently documented; you can still plug in 1980s data and run the same projections, to determine the pretended economy would collapse approximately right now.

Not only so... my early material projected the necessary de-escalation of interest rates and all the basic methods of artificial sustention which are temporarily, unsustainably holding the pieces of Humpty Dumpty together for a short while. You and I have even discussed the rest of the hand they have to play. But there's never been any guarded secret. Anyone who knows how to work with a spreadsheet can download those spreadsheet models (which simplify the executable I provided Reagan). There's not a hidden formula in a single spreadsheet. Not one. Where's all the hiding? Every cell is a product of an exposed formula. Further sheets demonstrate the role of interest rates. How could the formulae be more exposed? It can't happen. Where'd you come up with this idea all of a sudden?

He seems to hold some resentment toward many held as monetary experts as they have had little interest or appreciation for his work.  He has also accused some of stealing his ideas.  For example, he got into a spat with Ellen Brown and Steve Zarlinga.

You bet. It's not "just" about stealing credit for my life's work. Zarlenga not only plagiarizes my work in terms of articles, claim modern "economics" is wholly bereft of formal proof and theorem... Zarlenga eventually proves he doesn't even understand the theses he plagiarized, by advocating his "Chicago Plan" as a solution -- which of course retains interest; and even higher rates of interest than we're currently suffering!

You can't claim to resurrect a "Lost Science of Money," dispensing with the one indispensable fact at the bottom of all the science! Zarlenga mistakenly wrote me asking me to help him promote his little ditty, stating we are of like mind. I asked why he thought I would want to promote his book if he knew I was of "like mind," as we would well know then that I advocated there is one and one only solution to the categoric faults of the pretended economies. Is there more than one solution of inflation/deflation, systemic manipulation of the cost or value of money or property, and inherent, irreversible, and therefore terminal multiplcation of artificial indebtedness in proportion to capacity to pay? Or did he publish my thesis as his?

He never answered.

But ho, the plot thickens. Why have Dennis Kucinich and Barack Obama never responded to mathematically perfected economy?

Quite simple; my work was forwarded to Zarlenga.

In fact during the most recent presidential campaign, I called the Ron Paul headquarters for my last time, to be told upon introducing myself that "everyone knows there's no such thing as mathematically perfected economy."

I asked Mr. Paul's respondent a patent question, "Do you mean to tell me then that if inflation and deflation are defined respectively as increases or decreases in circulation per goods and services, there is no mathematic solution then for inflation and deflation?"

Long pause. Then, "I can't debate that with you sir."

Half an hour later the Paul Campaign called me, pleading with me not to take the arguments of this respondent as the official Paul position. They claimed great interes in my web pages, and promised to watch carefully. Yeah, right.

I had already called the Kucinich Campaign in the interim, speaking to a Mr. David Bright, who intelligently listened to my explanation of MPE, means of transitioning to MPE, and so forth. He immediately asked me to send papers that he would personally deliver to their "Chicago People."

Guess who their Chicago People are?

Right. Stephen Zarlenga. Plagiarist, and advocate of a bogus solution involving interest. And right there on the same web pages, a video in which Kucinich claims to have learned everything he knows about monetary matters... from Zarlenga.

Do I have a problem with that? You bet I do. To the degree of ten-thousand homes a day still going into foreclosure; a neighbor who recently killed himself over it; friends losing their homes; a hundred and twenty-five-thousand children under the age of 12, homeless on the streets of Los Angeles.

Just trivia.

Ellen Hodgson Brown? You bet!

Where'd she get this idea you have to introduce the interest into the circulation with the principal? She shoot you some short-cut answer, because she can't even explain why in real terms. In fact, she too disclaimed the fundamental problem is really interest.

Do you know why all these plagiarists don't recognize my work? Because if they did, they couldn't claim it.

Meanwhile, after every controversy runs its course, and they're proven wrong time and time again, don't you think too it's a bit curious that "their solution" morphs, increment by increment, into mine? And they're still the author of solution?

There's a pattern of geunuine research you evidently don't care much for. That is, anyone who actually identifies problems and solution has to do something from the outset. That is, if circulatory inflation has to be distinguished from price inflation, where the prior art called both "inflation," a real analyst has to clean up the terms. They don't start out seeing you have to introduce interest with principal so that you can pay a purported debt comprised of both out of circulation. No sir.

Nor are you tempted, when you identify the inevitable consequences, to simply call it a "Ponzi scheme" -- negating everything you have to understand, to recognize what would be a solution.

Nor do you start out claiming the "Pennsylvania Currency" was the most brilliant banking model in our nation's history, actually thinking mike montagne's words were Benjamin Franklin's -- and not being able to explain yourself how the Pennsylvania Currency was "not inflationary" -- not even considering it might be good it might not be deflationary either!

So what did Ellen Hodgson Brown do when she found out "her research" related to an artificial event, an ACTUAL parable; not to history at all?

Oh, she revised her claim that this "banking model" (which was purty close to the actual prescription for mathematically perfected economy) -- she simply re-canted her claim of brilliance, and asserted instead that a Nebraska model was a fine solution.

How so? Does it eradicate interest?

Ellen claims it's not the interest you know.

You bet I have a problem with Ellen Hodgson Brown. It's big. And I do intend to hold her accountable for it.

As far as Ron Paul and Austrian economics, I agree with Mike, they are wrong when it comes to financial solutions and alternatives.  I really like Ron Paul's positions on many things but economics are not one.

You know, it's so pathetic that anyone is supporting Ron Paul through all this. Unless interest is not the problem, he's advocating exacerbating the problem. So prove interest is not the problem.

All this guy does is pretend he's advocating "honest money." As he ever defined it -- I mean, accountably, showing how we're going to be better off with reduced circulations subject to higher interest? You mean to tell me the housing crisis would never have occured if we were all paying 17 percent interest instead of 5? If so, it would only be because nobody could afford to own a home! The assets would be more toxic. We couldn't afford to sustain a fraction of the industry we are now; and that's only IF we could survive multiplication of debt by higher rates of interest so far.

Does anyone here know that Austrian "economists" routinely dismiss math, claiming obtusely that it cannot account for indeterminate human behaviour? What CAN you use then? And what would you claim solution by?

Well they don't claim solution; they don't even claim to conclusively analyze how "fiat" eventually fails -- even as the only fiat they can conceive of is subject to interest; even as interest is the cause; and even as THEY ADVOCATE INTEREST!

That's pretty interesting I think. Do you know why they think interest is fine (without applying any math)?

Read bom Baewerk. He spends practically half a dozen chapters developing an argument that the only historic disposition against interest is merely sentimental, originating in bogus religious material.

Well, what better can you think, if you refuse to determine the consequences of interest by the very DETERMINATE math which a bank uses to calculate your next month's interest?

I wish he would re-do his website as the message seems to be jumbled.  You have to work to find the important stuff and then, invariably, some details are missing.

I have been very busy. In fact, suddenly foreign governments have been showing interest in MPE as the only solution to monetary injustice and failure. Meanwhile, I've authored a constitutional amendment, and have been busily rewriting the site down to just 2 or 3 main pages, with the rest of the material remaining in reference sections.

But Larry, you're telling me you can find actual explanations of the problem, solution, and transformation into solution written by others? Likewise, as the folks here say, in some cases I've provided too much; in others too little?

You can't have it both ways. The pages of the existent site went up in answer to questions which often arise despite the fact you can find the answer in the way the material is already expressed. You don't find any unanswered questions. As to details missing?

Such as what? You mean somebody else out there has explained the actual problem, the fact of one solution, and carried solution forward to such detail?

WHERE?

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Re: Has Mike Montagne discovered the holy grail of ...

Ok, yes he is right... and the only way to perpetuate an economy is his way ... it would be a flat line on a graph ...no up cycles or down...just flat for 10,000 years...if we were computers or robots and lived perfect world... maybe...but we do not!  We live in a mean, unforgiving world of humans dealing with reality ...each and every day...!  And we want to better our selves...we want to progress this is a biological imperative...!!!

Here is where fantasy meets reality...here is where his system while is absolutely correct and irrefutable...will not work for biological systems.

MPE is not "flat." It's the only prescription which accomodates whatever circulation is necessary to sustain the intended activity of  "biological systems"; it's the only prescription which yet maintains a perpetual 1:1:1 relationship between remaining circulation, remaining promissory obligation, and remaining value of related, represented property. 

It readily grows to accomodate all intended industry, and without even any need for regulation, it automatically maintains an inflation and deflation free circulation, owing to its schedule of payment at the rate of consumption or depreciation of the related property.

You you have no basis whatever to make your preposterous claims.  HOW IN FACT, would a mathematically perfected economy fail to sustain the needs of "biological systems"?

Here is the final word... see the system we have now is too hot, will fail very soon,his system is too cold and may never fail... but Dr. Paul's system is just right for our desire to balance freedom and liberty with our desire to pursue the most happiness...for the longest time.

He is right... and his MPE will last 100,000 years ... but who wants to live like that!

I do not want to drink from his holy grail...it just cost me too much...but not in interest ...just life..

I'll bet ten bucks you can't even tell us what Dr. Paul's system is, much less how it can serve us better under the higher interest rates he advocates, ostensibly to stave excessive borrowing -- while those interest rates can only multiply debt all the faster, and necessitate further borrowing.

But thanks for the glimpse into the Austrian mind, and what satisfies its thirst for understanding.

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