Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

1005 posts / 0 new
Last post
stocks321's picture
stocks321
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Jul 12 2008
Posts: 91
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

Anyone who uses the word "denier" knows nothing of science and can be ignored.

In science, refuting an accepted belief is celebrated as an advance in knowledge; in religion it is condemned as heresy

"The improver of natural knowledge absolutely refuses to acknowledge authority, as such. For him, scepticism is the highest of duties; blind faith the one unpardonable sin."
 - Thomas H. Huxley

"To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact"                                        -- Charles Darwin

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts
Bertrand Russell
 
"Scientific knowledge is a body of statements of varying degrees of certainty—some most unsure, some nearly unsure, none absolutely certain."

— Richard Feynman

The one thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history:

 
 "Most men only care for science so far as they get a living by it, but they will worship error when it affords them a subsistence."
Goethe

"The human brain is not an organ of thinking but an organ of survival, .like claw and fangs. It is made in such a way as to make us accept as truth that which is only advantage."

— Albert Szent-Györgi

"To trace something unknown back to something known is alleviating, soothing, gratifying, and gives moreover a feeling of power. Danger, disquiet, anxiety attend the unknown - the first instinct is to eliminate these distressing states. First principle: any explanation is better than none... The cause-creating drive is thus conditioned and excited by the feeling of fear ...." 

Friedrich Nietzsche

There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture from such a trifling investment of fact."
Mark Twain

 

stocks321's picture
stocks321
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Jul 12 2008
Posts: 91
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

The Scientific Method

1. Observe a phenomenon carefully.

2. Develop a hypothesis that possibly explains the phenomenon.

3. Perform a test in an attempt to disprove or invalidate the hypothesis. If the hypothesis is disproven, return to steps 1 and 2.

4. A hypothesis that stubbornly refuses to be invalidated may be correct. Continue testing.

The Scientific Computer Modeling Method

1. Observe a phenomenon carefully.

2. Develop a computer model that mimics the behavior of the phenomenon.

3. Select observations that conform to the model predictions and dismiss observations as of inadequate quality that conflict with the computer model.

4. In instances where all of the observations conflict with the model, "refine" the model with fudge factors to give a better match with pesky facts. Assert that these factors reveal fundamental processes previously unknown in association with the phenomenon. Under no circumstances willingly reveal your complete data sets, methods, or computer codes.

5. Upon achieving a model of incomprehensible complexity that still somewhat resembles the phenomenon, begin to issue to the popular media dire predictions of catastrophe that will occur as far in the future as possible, at least beyond your professional lifetime.

6. Continue to "refine" the model in order to maximize funding and the awarding of Nobel Prizes.

7. Dismiss as unqualified, ignorant, and conspiracy theorists all who offer criticisms of the model.

Repeat steps 3 through 7 indefinitely.

Roy Tucker [gpobs@mindspring.com]

 

gregroberts's picture
gregroberts
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 6 2008
Posts: 1017
stocks321's picture
stocks321
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Jul 12 2008
Posts: 91
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

Professor Ian Plimer’s new book Heaven and Earth has gone into its fifth print run!

Rowman and Littlefield Publishing has acquired North American rights to In Heaven and Earth: Global Warming: The Missing Science, by leading Australian geologist Ian Plimer. In the book, Plimer makes the scientifically controversial argument that carbon dioxide has an insignificant role in affecting climate. Heaven and Earth was originally released in Australia in May by Connor Court Publishing and has already gone through five printings, after hitting local bestseller lists there. According to R&L, as of May 15, Plimer’s title was #1 on Bookdata, the Australian equivalent of BookScan.

R&L said Plimer refutes much of the science Al Gore presented in his bestselling primer on global warming, An Inconvenient Truth. In a statement from the publisher, Plimer said Gore’s book and documentary are rife with “misrepresentations” and that “trying to deal with these misrepresentations is somewhat like trying to argue with creationists, who misquote, concoct evidence, quote out of context, ignore contrary evidence, and create evidence ex nihilo.”

R&L, through its Taylor Trade imprint, is crashing the book for July 1 and expects the title to stir up debate. Jed Lyons, CEO of R&L, added that the book’s message is particularly urgent. “When our children are being taught that carbon dioxide—food for plants—is a pollutant, and that climate change is somehow unnatural, then clarifying views need to be heard.”
 

http://anhonestclimatedebate.wordpress.com/2009/06/13/professor-ian-plim...

Doug's picture
Doug
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 1 2008
Posts: 2461
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

gregroberts

Shame on you, haven't we been through this before?  I believe this has been discussed earlier in this thread.  At the risk or repeating myself, this so-called petition of so-called scientists is a sham put together by the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine (OISM), a sad little pretend research group tucked away in the mountains of Oregon with no real students or peer reviewed research. 

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Oregon_Institute_of_Science_and_Medicine

Quote:
Case Study: The Oregon Petition

The Oregon Petition, sponsored by the OISM, was circulated in April 1998 in a bulk mailing to tens of thousands of U.S. scientists. In addition to the petition, the mailing included what appeared to be a reprint of a scientific paper. Authored by OISM's Arthur B. Robinson, Sallie L. Baliunas, Willie Soon, and Zachary W. Robinson, the paper was titled "Environmental Effects of Increased Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide" and was printed in the same typeface and format as the official Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Also included was a reprint of a December 1997, Wall Street Journal editorial, "Science Has Spoken: Global Warming Is a Myth", by Arthur and Zachary Robinson. A cover note signed "Frederick Seitz/Past President, National Academy of Sciences, U.S.A./President Emeritus, Rockefeller University", may have given some persons the impression that Robinson's paper was an official publication of the academy's peer-reviewed journal. The blatant editorializing in the pseudopaper, however, was uncharacteristic of scientific papers.

Robinson's paper claimed to show that pumping carbon dioxide into the atmosphere is actually a good thing. "As atmospheric CO2 increases," it stated, "plant growth rates increase. Also, leaves lose less water as CO2 increases, so that plants are able to grow under drier conditions. Animal life, which depends upon plant life for food, increases proportionally." As a result, Robinson concluded, industrial activities can be counted on to encourage greater species biodiversity and a greener planet:

As coal, oil, and natural gas are used to feed and lift from poverty vast numbers of people across the globe, more CO2 will be released into the atmosphere. This will help to maintain and improve the health, longevity, prosperity, and productivity of all people.
Human activities are believed to be responsible for the rise in CO2 level of the atmosphere. Mankind is moving the carbon in coal, oil, and natural gas from below ground to the atmosphere and surface, where it is available for conversion into living things. We are living in an increasingly lush environment of plants and animals as a result of the CO2 increase. Our children will enjoy an Earth with far more plant and animal life as [sic] that with which we now are blessed. This is a wonderful and unexpected gift from the Industrial Revolution.

In reality, neither Robinson's paper nor OISM's petition drive had anything to do with the National Academy of Sciences, which first heard about the petition when its members began calling to ask if the NAS had taken a stand against the Kyoto treaty. Robinson was not even a climate scientist. He was a biochemist with no published research in the field of climatology, and his paper had never been subjected to peer review by anyone with training in the field. In fact, the paper had never been accepted for publication anywhere, let alone in the NAS Proceedings. It was self-published by Robinson, who did the typesetting himself on his own computer. (It was subsequently published as a "review" in Climate Research, which contributed to an editorial scandal at that publication.)

None of the coauthors of "Environmental Effects of Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide" had any more standing than Robinson himself as a climate change researcher. They included Robinson's 22-year-old son, Zachary, along with astrophysicists Sallie L. Baliunas and Willie Soon. Both Baliunas and Soon worked with Frederick Seitz at the George C. Marshall Institute, a Washington, D.C., think tank where Seitz served as executive director. Funded by a number of right-wing foundations, including Scaife and Bradley, the George C. Marshall Institute does not conduct any original research. It is a conservative think tank that was initially founded during the years of the Reagan administration to advocate funding for Reagan's Strategic Defense Initiative--the "Star Wars" weapons program. Today, the Marshall Institute is still a big fan of high-tech weapons. In 1999, its website gave prominent placement to an essay by Col. Simon P. Worden titled "Why We Need the Air-Borne Laser," along with an essay titled "Missile Defense for Populations--What Does It Take? Why Are We Not Doing It?" Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, however, the Marshall Institute has adapted to the times by devoting much of its firepower to the war against environmentalism, and in particular against the "scaremongers" who raise warnings about global warming.

"The mailing is clearly designed to be deceptive by giving people the impression that the article, which is full of half-truths, is a reprint and has passed peer review," complained Raymond Pierrehumbert, a meteorlogist at the University of Chicago. NAS foreign secretary F. Sherwood Rowland, an atmospheric chemist, said researchers "are wondering if someone is trying to hoodwink them." NAS council member Ralph J. Cicerone, dean of the School of Physical Sciences at the University of California at Irvine, was particularly offended that Seitz described himself in the cover letter as a "past president" of the NAS. Although Seitz had indeed held that title in the 1960s, Cicerone hoped that scientists who received the petition mailing would not be misled into believing that he "still has a role in governing the organization."

The NAS issued an unusually blunt formal response to the petition drive. "The NAS Council would like to make it clear that this petition has nothing to do with the National Academy of Sciences and that the manuscript was not published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences or in any other peer-reviewed journal," it stated in a news release. "The petition does not reflect the conclusions of expert reports of the Academy." In fact, it pointed out, its own prior published study had shown that "even given the considerable uncertainties in our knowledge of the relevant phenomena, greenhouse warming poses a potential threat sufficient to merit prompt responses. Investment in mitigation measures acts as insurance protection against the great uncertainties and the possibility of dramatic surprises."

Notwithstanding this rebuke, the Oregon Petition managed to garner 15,000 signatures within a month's time. S. Fred Singer called the petition "the latest and largest effort by rank-and-file scientists to express their opposition to schemes that subvert science for the sake of a political agenda."

Nebraska senator Chuck Hagel called it an "extraordinary response" and cited it as his basis for continuing to oppose a global warming treaty. "Nearly all of these 15,000 scientists have technical training suitable for evaluating climate research data," Hagel said. Columns citing the Seitz petition and the Robinson paper as credible sources of scientific expertise on the global warming issue have appeared in publications ranging from Newsday', the Los Angeles Times and Washington Post to the Austin-American Statesman, Denver Post, and Wyoming Tribune-Eagle.

In addition to the bulk mailing, OISM's website enables people to add their names to the petition over the Internet, and by June 2000 it claimed to have recruited more than 19,000 scientists. The institute is so lax about screening names, however, that virtually anyone can sign, including for example Al Caruba, a pesticide-industry PR man and conservative ideologue who runs his own website called the "National Anxiety Center." Caruba has no scientific credentials whatsoever, but in addition to signing the Oregon Petition he has editorialized on his own website against the science of global warming, calling it the "biggest hoax of the decade," a "genocidal" campaign by environmentalists who believe that "humanity must be destroyed to 'Save the Earth.' . . . There is no global warming, but there is a global political agenda, comparable to the failed Soviet Union experiment with Communism, being orchestrated by the United Nations, supported by its many Green NGOs, to impose international treaties of every description that would turn the institution into a global government, superceding the sovereignty of every nation in the world."

When questioned in 1998, OISM's Arthur Robinson admitted that only 2,100 signers of the Oregon Petition had identified themselves as physicists, geophysicists, climatologists, or meteorologists, "and of those the greatest number are physicists." This grouping of fields concealed the fact that only a few dozen, at most, of the signatories were drawn from the core disciplines of climate science - such as meteorology, oceanography, and glaciology - and almost none were climate specialists. The names of the signers are available on the OISM's website, but without listing any institutional affiliations or even city of residence, making it very difficult to determine their credentials or even whether they exist at all. When the Oregon Petition first circulated, in fact, environmental activists successfully added the names of several fictional characters and celebrities to the list, including John Grisham, Michael J. Fox, Drs. Frank Burns, B. J. Honeycutt, and Benjamin Pierce (from the TV show M*A*S*H), an individual by the name of "Dr. Red Wine," and Geraldine Halliwell, formerly known as pop singer Ginger Spice of the Spice Girls. Halliwell's field of scientific specialization was listed as "biology." Even in 2003, the list was loaded with misspellings, duplications, name and title fragments, and names of non-persons, such as company names.

OISM has refused to release info on the number of mailings it made. From comments in Nature:

"Virtually every scientist in every field got it," says Robert Park, a professor of physics at the University of Maryland at College Park and spokesman for the American Physical Society. "That's a big mailing." According to the National Science Foundation, there are more than half a million science or engineering PhDs in the United States, and ten million individuals with first degrees in science or engineering.
Arthur Robinson, president of the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, the small, privately funded institute that circulated the petition, declines to say how many copies were sent out. "We're not willing to have our opponents attack us with that number, and say that the rest of the recipients are against us," he says, adding that the response was "outstanding" for a direct mail shot. [3]

Is there a scientific basis for Robinson's claim that increased carbon dioxide levels will contribute to increased growth of some plants? Some research has gone into investigating this possibility, but the evidence does not point to the type of reassurance that the OISM is peddling. Fakhri Bazzaz, a plant physiologist at Harvard, has found that carbon dioxide-enriched air accelerates short-term plant growth, but his studies were carried out under controlled greenhouse conditions and are difficult to translate to a larger scale. Plant growth in natural systems may be constrained by a shortage of soil nutrients despite the greater availability of carbon dioxide. Moreover, Bazzaz's experiments involved carbon dioxide concentrations at levels 100% greater than those now existing in our atmosphere, whereas the greenhouse warming we are experiencing right now results from only a 20% increase in world carbon dioxide levels. Clearly, it is irresponsible to predict "benefits" from increased carbon dioxide in the atmosphere when such "benefits" may only appear after we suffer the consequences of a five-fold increase over current anthropogenic emissions of greenhouse gases. Finally, Bazzaz found that different plant species vary dramatically in their response to increased carbon dioxide. Plants such as sugar cane and corn were not improved, but weeds were stimulated. There is not much real benefit in warming the planet by several degrees just so we can maybe make it easier for weeds to grow.

Notwithstanding the shortcomings in Robinson's theory, the oil and coal industries have sponsored several organizations to promote the idea that increasing the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is "good for earth" because it will encourage greater plant growth. The Greening Earth Society, a front group of the Western Fuels Association, has produced a video, titled "The Greening of the Planet Earth Continues," publishes a newsletter called the World Climate Report, and works closely with a group called the Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change.

As of the Fall of 2007, OISM continued to mail petition cards along with a reprint of "Environmental Effects of Increased Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide," now cited as having been published in the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons (2007) 12, 79-90, with Arthur B. Robinson, Noah E. Robinson, and Willie Soon listed as the authors. The journal is published by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeonswhose director is Jane Orient (see above), a professor at the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine. Also included in the mailing is a copy of a Wall Street Journal Op-Ed article entitled "Global Warming is 300-Year-Old News" authored by Arthur and Noah Robinson and dated January 18, 2000.

So, if you've ever wanted to be a scientist, you too can go to OISM's website, sign the peition and be touted by right wing organizations everywhere as a living, breathing, petition signing scientist.  OTOH, if you're interested in real science, I again suggest http://realclimate.org or the IPCC report itself.  http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/wg1-report.html

A. M.'s picture
A. M.
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 22 2008
Posts: 2171
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

Doug,

You're complaining about the opposite side of your own mentality.

OISM is no more right wing fringe than IPCC is globalist fringe propaganda. UCAR and the AMS are inextricably linked to IPCC. So you're siting multiple sources, but their information is derived from one camp.

I've read some of OISM's material; specifically on the anatomy of nuclear blasts, and the realities behind nuclear war. Certainly well grounded in science. If the "peer reviewers" are just a bunch of nattering groupthinkers, what's the use of the report?

Further, the exact same thing has been done on behalf of the IPCC in terms of "signing petitons". Anyone with some college can sign their petition as a "scientist" proving global warming is going to wipe us all out.

Fear is a weapon, and I have no doubt that fear of Global Warming (Or Climate change - which is appropriately more ambigious) is part of an elaborate global agenda to coerce cooperation with UN accords. They've made no qualms about it, and I wouldn't trust the UN if they told me the sky was blue.

Cheers,

Aaron

Doug's picture
Doug
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 1 2008
Posts: 2461
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

Aaron

I was going to respond to your last in detail, but now recognize the futility of such.  I will continue to post science, you can continue to post discredited information put out in the right wing blogosphere.

A. M.'s picture
A. M.
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 22 2008
Posts: 2171
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

Doug,

Look - buddy - if you want to insult me, at least leave politics out of it.
I am not, nor have I ever been influenced by any "blogosphere", nor do I subscribe to the noxious bile spewed by folks like Bill O'Reilly.

You are the one presenting information bastardized by political objectives. Pretty please, with sugar on top, stop blaming anyone who doesn't agree with you as a "right wing, flat earther". The IPCC is not an unbiased source. This is tantamount to asking RJ Reynolds if Tobacco is dangerous and then saying:
"See! Science says it's ok to smoke! And why would they lie? If you're dead, you can't smoke."

You're dismissing any other opinion as "right wing fringe propaganda" without considering that your own data could be the same. This discussion has become hipocritical source slander and character defamation rather than an objective analysis of the informations presented.

Why would you tout the peer review, and then fail to review the documents yourself.

Futility is certainly not the word to use on me parder. I can be persuaded, but your data simply does not indicate that humans are causing rapid, irreversible heating.
So, what's your point? What are you trying to get across here?

Aaron

stocks321's picture
stocks321
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Jul 12 2008
Posts: 91
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

 The `Hockey Stick':
A New Low in Climate Science

It is now clear that the climate history of the northern hemisphere and the globe as a whole bears no similarity whatever to that portrayed by Mann's `Hockey Stick'. It is inconceivable that two major climatic events of the last millennium, the Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice Age, could be observed at the same points in time in such varied locations and with such a variety of proxies, around the world and yet be missed by Mann's study. One possible explanation for this discrepancy is that tree rings are inappropriate as temperature proxies, something most dendrochronologists are reluctant to acknowledge.

The question must then be asked, why do people who claim scientific credentials in the field cling so tenaciously to a characterization of past climate that is so patently false? Why was there so little challenge to the Mann theory among his peers? Why is there collective denial about the role of the sun when published and peer-reviewed evidence from solar scientists demonstrates a clear relationship between solar change and climate change?

A common failing of scientists, particularly those engaged in research which may have impacts upon the public, is to reject any input from the public in the conduct of their work. The peer review process provides an effective barrier to public scrutiny of a science, as is the tendency to regard the public as people to `be educated' instead of being learned from. The resulting intellectual arrogance has the effect of making scientists into a sort of medieval priesthood, keepers of secret and exclusive knowledge, and to be kept away from prying public eyes. Such an attitude, common with many scientists, is unpardonable given that most research is paid for by public money. This however, does not prevent such scientists from adopting a proprietorial view of their research results. The NAS booklet cautions -

"In fulfilling these responsibilities scientists must take the time to relate scientific knowledge to society in such a way that members of the public can make an informed decision about the relevance of research. Sometimes researchers reserve this right to themselves, considering non-experts unqualified to make such judgments. But science offers only one window on human experience. While upholding the honor of their profession, scientists must seek to avoid putting scientific knowledge on a pedestal above knowledge obtained through other means."

This is a direct criticism of `scientism', a belief held by many scientists that knowledge not acquired by professional scientists is knowledge not worth having. Scientism is an affront to free people everywhere as it denies the right of the public to judge the work of science, even where this work is funded from taxpayer's money. It is a formula that holds scientists above criticism, and unaccountable to anyone but their own peers. It is an anti-democratic view of the world and is clearly opposed by the National Academy. 

Yet in the climate sciences, we have numerous examples of public criticism and concern being dismissed with gratuitous statistics and spurious appeals to academic authority.

http://www.john-daly.com/hockey/hockey.htm

 

stocks321's picture
stocks321
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Jul 12 2008
Posts: 91
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

In 1928 Trofim Lysenko, a self-taught geneticist, promised to turn Russian wasteland into a grain-laden Garden of Eden.

Today, Lysenko is a byword for fraud but in Stalin’s Russia his ideas became law. They reveal a world of science distorted by ideology, where ideas were literally a matter of life and death. To disagree with Lysenko risked the gulag and yet he damaged, perhaps irreparably, the Soviet Union’s capacity to fight and win the Cold War.

In summary, the comparisons between Lysenkoism and ‘Global Warming’ can be rehearsed as follows:

1. Work first through political organisations;

2. Claim that the science is settled. There is nothing to debate;

3. Disregard, or deny, all the accumulating evidence that the predictions might be wrong;

4. Demonise the opposition (Mendelian geneticists; ‘Global Warming’ Deniers);

5. Victimise the opposition (execution and exile; loss of jobs or research funds, public and media humiliation);

6. Relate to a current ideology (Stalinism; Environmentalism);

7. Support a vast propaganda machine; and,

8. Create a huge bureaucracy where many people have careers dependent upon ‘the ruling concept’.

The parallel can be seen perfectly in a work by Helena Sheehan(1), who wrote of Lysenkoism: 

“What went wrong was that the proper procedures for coming to terms with such complex issues were short-circuited by grasping for easy slogans and simplistic solutions and imposing them by administrative fiat.”

Lysenkoism was eventually replaced by real science. The same will happen to ‘Global Warming’, because real science will not go away

http://web.mac.com/sinfonia1/Global_Warmin...sm_and_GW_.html

 

jpitre's picture
jpitre
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Mar 3 2009
Posts: 362
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

I'm not completely convinced as to the exact causes of   Global Warming, except to say that from personal experience over the past 45 years I have been on many glaciers and ice fields including Alaska, Greenland and Antarctica and have seen many them in the process of melting away.  Our official US Government report just issued and presented to the President and Congress it very clear about its conclusions:

1. Global warming is unequivocal and primarily human-induced.

Global temperature has increased over the past 50 years. This observed increase is due primarily to human induced emissions of heat-trapping gases. 

2. Climate changes are underway in the United States and are projected to grow.

Climate-related changes are already observed in the United States and its coastal waters. These include increases in heavy downpours, rising temperature and sea level, rapidly retreating glaciers, thawing permafrost, lengthening growing seasons, lengthening ice-free seasons in the ocean and on lakes and rivers, earlier snowmelt, and alterations in river flows. These changes are projected to grow. 

3. Widespread climate-related impacts are occurring now and are expected to increase.

Climate changes are already affecting water, energy, transportation, agriculture, ecosystems, and health. These impacts are different from region to region and will grow under projected climate change.  

4. Climate change will stress water resources.

Water is an issue in every region, but the nature of the potential impacts varies. Drought, related to reduced precipitation, increased evaporation, and increased water loss from plants, is an important issue in many regions, especially in the West. Floods and water quality problems are likely to be amplified by climate change in most regions. Declines in mountain snowpack are important in the West and Alaska where snowpack provides vital

natural water storage. 

5. Crop and livestock production will be increasingly challenged.

Many crops show positive responses to elevated carbon dioxide and low levels of warming, but higher levels of warming often negatively affect growth and yields. Increased pests, water stress, diseases, and weather extremes will pose adaptation challenges for crop and livestock production. 

6. Coastal areas are at increasing risk from sea-level rise and storm surge.

Sea-level rise and storm surge place many U.S. coastal areas at increasing risk of erosion and flooding, especially along the Atlantic and Gulf Coasts, Pacific Islands, and parts of Alaska. Energy and transportation infrastructure and other property in coastal areas are very likely to be adversely affected.  

7. Risks to human health will increase.

Harmful health impacts of climate change are related to increasing heat stress, waterborne diseases, poor air quality, extreme weather events, and diseases transmitted by insects and rodents. Reduced cold stress provides some benefits. Robust public health infrastructure can reduce the potential for negative impacts.  

8. Climate change will interact with many social and environmental stresses.

Climate change will combine with pollution, population growth, overuse of resources, urbanization, and other social, economic, and environmental stresses to create larger impacts than from any of these factors alone. 

9. Thresholds will be crossed, leading to large changes in climate and ecosystems.

There are a variety of thresholds in the climate system and ecosystems. These thresholds determine, for example, the presence of sea ice and permafrost, and the survival of species, from fish to insect pests, with implications for society. With further climate change, the crossing of additional thresholds is expected. 

10. Future climate change and its impacts depend on choices made today.

The amount and rate of future climate change depend primarily on current and future human-caused emissions of heat-trapping gases and airborne particles. Responses involve reducing emissions to limit future warming, and adapting to the changes that are unavoidable. 

The entire report is available at:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Streaming-Now-Climate-Change-Impacts-Across-America-Renewed-Focus-for-Decisions/

A. M.'s picture
A. M.
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 22 2008
Posts: 2171
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

This language makes me apprehensive.

Quote:
Global warming is unequivocal and primarily human-induced.

This is a fallacy, and quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.
in order to even be fair with this claim, we'd assume that the Sun is not the sole proprietor of surface heaing - which it is.

Quote:

2. Climate changes are underway in the United States and are projected to grow.

Climate-related changes are already observed in the United States and its coastal waters. These include increases in heavy downpours, rising temperature and sea level, rapidly retreating glaciers, thawing permafrost, lengthening growing seasons, lengthening ice-free seasons in the ocean and on lakes and rivers, earlier snowmelt, and alterations in river flows. These changes are projected to grow. 

This is extremely subjective in both verbage and context. Increases in heavy downpours?
Explain - how much of an increase? What constitutes a heavy downpour? We have criteria for these things - they're not arbitrary terms for political use. Heavy rainfall is a specific event and it has, and does occur regularly. Getting people scared that it's going to "increase" is only going to increase their perception of something that's always been there.

What are these changes projected by? Models? Linear Extrapolation? Best guesses? Pin the tail on the disaster?

Furthermore, every other "problem" outline is not so much a problem of "global warming" as it is overpopulation and population density. To include livestock.

It concerns me some that people are touting these official sources when they're clearly pressing an agenda.
Making very bold claims with minimal scientific backing and scare tactics doesn't make something true.

I sincerely hope that people think about this strongly before committing themselves to a particular side.
I'll be sitting on the fence until more data reveals itself. Quite frankly, I think this is a sham.

Aaron

gyrogearloose's picture
gyrogearloose
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 8 2008
Posts: 414
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

Hi stocks321.

Very interesting link there "debunking the "hocky stick graph".

A well written article well refferenced.

Regards Hamish

P.S.  Doug, any comments?

Doug's picture
Doug
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 1 2008
Posts: 2461
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

I don't have much time to devote to Mr. Daly.  But, his contributions to the science are discussed elsewhere.

href=/comment/60340#comment-60340

Quote:
The late John Daly maintained a crackpot anti-global-warming-science site called “Still Waiting for Greenhouse.” He died last year (2004), I believe, and his relatives keep the site up, and post a lot of articles that seem scientific (e.g. they often use equations or charts), but aren’t accurate. For a nice overall rebuttal, google for the site “What’s Wrong with Still Waiting for Greenhouse.”

The article stocks321 linked came out after AR2, meaning two subsequent IPCC reports have been issued.  At best, his information is dated, at worst cooked.  But, that doesn't stop the denialosphere from continually bringing it up.

Doug's picture
Doug
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 1 2008
Posts: 2461
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

FWIW, I stumbled across the following post at realclimate.org.  I think the distinctions between skeptic and denialist that the author makes are relevant and his extensive efforts to examine the science from a non-climate scientist pov are impressive.  I don't have the time, energy or, for that matter, the expertise that he does to thoroughly examine the primary source science.  But, starting out as a genuine skeptic, I spent a couple years reading the work of people like him and the scientists who do the original research and have reached essentially the same conclusions that he does.  The piece is lengthy, but I think worthwhile in setting a framework for how one approaches climate science, or, indeed, any science. (emphasis mine)

href=/comment/30607#comment-30607

Quote:
John Mashey Says:

re: #289:
“And what’s with quotes on “skeptic”?”

The problem is some fuzziness in the use of English:

1) SKEPTIC: To me, the terms “skeptic” and “skeptical thinking” have usually meant someone takes nothing on blind faith, examines alternate viewpoints carefully, weighs evidence, and changes their mind when new data arrives. I think those are good things. Of course, if you look it up in various dictionaries, you find various meanings.

I’ve known lots of good scientists, and they generally work this way, and are mostly perfectly happy with real skeptics. I’m always happy to have a few well-informed skeptics poking at mainline theories, since sometimes advances come from studying inconsistencies. Occasionally, really wacko-sounding ideas work out.

2)CERTAINTY: However, some people have been 100% sure (often in temporal order) that:
- there is no warming, temperatures jiggle naturally anyway, and scientists don’t understand any of this
- well, satellites disagree with with ground stations
- well, maybe there is warming, but it’s not caused by humans
- well, if some of the warming is caused by humans, we don’t know how much
- well, if there is warming, it’s caused by {changes in Sun, cosmic rays, etc},and besides the Mars polar cap is melting, so it’s nothing to do with humans.
- well, we can propose mechanisms that might cancel the warming.
- well, even if there is AGW, we can’t do anything about it, so we shouldn’t try, people should just migrate away from the coasts.
- well, we aren’t 100% certain, so we should study it more.
- well, under no circumstances should we damage our economy by conserving energy [i.e., we should never be so silly as to act like California, which is relatively energy efficient, and whose economy must therefore be just awful. (The Wall Street Journal editorial page regularly mocks CA for such activities, even as the news sections applaud CA business. :-)]

The problem is, such a view is “skeptical” of AGW, but many people have trouble according it the positives of the classical skeptic in 1), and hence write “skeptic” or sometimes *denialist*. In my experience, good climate scientists are happy to answer questions from real skeptics [RC is a fine example], but rightfully get weary of denialists.

3) SKEPTICAL THINKING For instance, a *real* skeptical thinker might want to do the following: do as I did in 2002-2003, averaging an hour a day across several years. It would take much less time now, because there’s a lot more data, and some of the annoying inconsistencies have evaporated, and some of the lingering questions now have plausible hypotheses to help explain them, and there are good websites like RC. Here’s what I did then (and for background, my undergrad work was math+physics, followed by MS/PhD in computer science, and I’m a AAAS member, so I’m fairly comfortable looking at primary research articles when needed. I’m certainly not part of any climate-science establishment, although I used to help design supercomputers used by such people.)

a) Read books by mainstream scientists, such as the IPCC books, several of Stephen Schneider’s, John Houghton’s “Global Warming”, Mackay et al “Global Change in the Holocene”, Krauskopf & Bird, “Introduction to Geochemistry”, etc. If someone were starting now, Ruddiman’s Plows, Plagues, and Petroleum” is my favorite, especially if one doesn’t have a technical background.

Read Science (or Nature) every week.
Join the AGU for a while to see what else the professionals are doing.

b) Get a few alarmist books, like Berger’s “Beating the Heat” (which irked me by lamenting the future disappearance of penguins from the Arctic.)

c) On the other side, read Lomborg’s “Skeptical Environmentalist”; Fred Singer’s “Hot talk Cold Science”, Essex & McKitrick’s “Taken by Storm”, etc.

d) Follow ongoing discussions, websites, Look at NOAA, USHCN, etc to understand measurements. I also watched John Daly’s website, and CO2science, and GreeningEarthSociety, etc, etc. I followed the McIntyre & McKitrick papers, and later (2006) studied the Wegman Report.

e) Keep a list of outstanding objections to AGW. When appropriate, backtrack references to primary research papers. Watch how the list changes with time,and how it relates to ongoing research.

f) When possible, interact with real climate scientists. I had the fun of being the “skeptical discussant” for a (very good) Stephen Schneider seminar at Stanford: I brought in my current stack of booksd, asked a few tough questions, and asked what else I should look at. He explicitly had no problem with someone questioning AGW, if they were doing it rationally, rather than reflexively. His talk carefully discussed degrees of uncertainty, and if he was upset at anyone, it was at those were 100% sure that AGW didn’t exist, not at those who approached AGW as classical skeptics.

g) MOST IMPORTANT, and the reason one can’t do this overnight: to understand the science and (necessarily) politics of a theory like AGW, you need to track it for several years, especially to calibrate the players. If you study history of science:

- a new hypothesis appears, which of course must at least be consistent with existing data, and preferably makes further predictions that can be tested, and preferably, is as simple as possible, but no more.

- as new data arrives, the hypothesis might be rapidly disconfirmed, or it might need to be adjusted (Ruddiman gives a good example in PPP: Chapter 11).

- there is *always* ambiguous or contradictory or missing data.

For a hypothesis to become a well-accepted theory:
+ new data tends to confirm it
+ ambiguities tend to get narrowed
+ contradictions tend to get resolved

BUT, you have to watch it for a while to see that happening.

Over time, better theories tend to be better approximations of reality, but even great theories (like Relativity or Quantum Mechanics) don’t explain *everything* - legions of physicists have labored mightily for decades to create a theory that subsumes both of them, but in the meantime, GPS satellites work and so do transistors, even in the absence of an all-encompassing theory.

Scientists, being human, sometimes defend their data and hypotheses like a lioness defends her cubs, but most are careful to calibrate the quality of data and areas of uncertainty, with numerous caveats, and most change their minds as data accumulates. This puts them at great debating disadvantage with people who have always been 100% sure that AGW doesn’t exist, especially in a sound-byte era.

4) AGW After watching all this for a few years, my opinion got increasingly firm:

- In the early 1990s, there had been plenty of room for uncertainty about AGW (not about the basic physics, of course), but there were more loose ends, temperature jiggles for which the explanations were more uncertain. It seemed to me that there were alarmist views that were premature, but:

- Over time, data piled up overpoweringly, contradictions (like satellites vs ground stations) got resolved… etc. I’m used to science: there are always measurement errors, and one would always like more data, and yes, clouds and aerosols are not perfectly understood, but That’s Life.

- This left very little room for doubt of the basic AGW theory, if one actually studied the science, and especially if one had even modest technical background. I was pretty clear that mainline scientists were not being alarmists, but had pretty good reasons for saying what they were saying.

- Occasionally, I was uncomfortable with the ways summarization happened, and data presented graphically. Specifically MBH98+MBH99 (well-caveated) -> IPCC TAR main report -> IPCC TAR TS -> IPCC SPM
(whose specific hockey-stick chart with gray error zone had to be unconsciously misleading for the intended audience, which I’d guess is unlikely to think much about error bars and uncertainty.) I was sensitive to this because of long-running similar issues in my own discipline (computer science, especially performance characterization, which often tries to be overly precise to make things simple.)

I always thought that was an unfortunate evolution, which started with studies heroically trying to extract signal from difficult historical data, with appropriate caveats, but emerged looking like everyone was really sure of one line, even though that certainty was clearly not true when one back-tracked through the eventual layers of proper caveats. It’s too bad IPCC didn’t think of a better way to present that data, but I sympathize with people who do understand uncertainty arguing with people who are always 100% sure.

I thought that it really didn’t matter whether the current temperature was slightly above or slightly below the peak of the MWP. What mattered to me was that the temperature was going up fast, that the lag time effects meant it would keep going up for many decades, no matter what, and that there were at least 10X more people on the planet now. Having grown up on a small farm, I heard about “carrying capacity” before I was 10.

5) “SKEPTICS” It also became clear was that there existed a relatively small number of vocal people and organizations, who were not acting like classic skeptics, but had the clear point of view described in 2), apparently arising mostly from other-than-scientific concerns:
- specific political or ideological beliefs
- economics
“It’s hard to convince someone if their livelihood depends on not believing.”

Certain tactics became apparent, a lot like those used to obfuscate research on smoking-cancer link (unsurprising: some of the same people/organizations, but funded by ExxonMobil rather than RJ Reynolds Tobacco).

-Arguments were made via whitepapers, web pages, OpEd pieces, not peer-reviewed research.

-Old, long-debunked claims were cited over and over.

-New data was ignored.

-Completely irrelevant claims were thrown up (Mars!)

-Sham polls were produced. [I might be interested in a real poll by AGU or AAAS of their members who are practicing climate scientists. “Polls” like OSMI’s: no way.]

-Claims of major scientific controversy, based almost always on the opinions (but not usually peer-reviewed) of a minuscule handful of scientists, of whom only a few were actually climate scientists. Scientists are always always arguing about details, but I sure couldn’t find major controversy, just normal observational science in progress.

-Claims that some paper contradicted AGW, but when I’d go read the primary research journal, it wasn’t true.

-There was constant cherry-picking of data [like saying the Wegman Report was a refutation of AGW (it wasn’t), like picking a few weather stations showing downward trends, like saying there was no sea-level rise by citing Stockholm’s sea-level records. A random layperson might be forgiven Stockholm, but not a professional oceanic meteorologist, who couldn’t possibly be unaware of Post Glacial Rebound (PGR).]

-In general, the arguments seemed directed to keep the public confused, as opposed to contributing to science. That is, it would be plausible for someone to propose a testable, alternate hypothesis that explained the existing data, but this wasn’t that, this was “anything but AGW”. The closest I could find that looked like a serious hypothesis was Lindzen’s IRIS hypothesis, which remains up in the air, at best, and in any case, is more of a claim of a mechanism that could automatically ameliorate AGW.

It is quite easy for people who haven’t studied this in detail to pick up denialist ideas, because they are usually packaged as simple sound-bytes that are easy to remember. There may be masses of real science that refutes them, but the latter do not lend themselves to quick simplicity. I’m actually surprised that climate scientists are as patient as many are, giventhat they’ve had to deal with this for years.

Anyway, over time (and it takes a while, because a snapshot at any onetime doesn’t capture the dynamic behavior), it became clear that the underlying position:

(”under no circumstances conserve fossil fuels or regulate CO2″)

was the constant, and that there were a continuing (but ever-changing) series of ideas thrown up against AGW, not with the idea of improving scientific models to better approximate reality, but in support of particular political/economic views, using tactics to keep the public as confused as long as possible. (And it’s OK with me to promote one’s views … but I’d rather it be done by being upfront, not by obfuscating science.) Such tactics can work fairly well, as they did for RJ Reynolds (it took a long time to restrict smoking, didn’t it?) It is totally unsurprising that trying to mitigate AGW (especially by conservations) is simply not in the short-term interests of some companies, just as restricting smoking is not in RJR’s.

6) CONCLUSION So, I started from a classical skeptic viewpoint, studied the problem in fair depth (for a non-climate scientist), and got convinced that the AGW science was quite solid, notwithstanding some occasional problems in graphics/statistics presentation akin to ones I’ve seen in my own discipline).

I also got convinced that there was a small, but vocal group who were *not* skeptics, but “skeptics” or denialists. I don’t think that real climate scientists have a problem with classical skeptics, just with 100%-sure denialists calling themselves skeptics.

stocks321's picture
stocks321
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Jul 12 2008
Posts: 91
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

1. The new scare report issued by the Obama administration refers (reference list) to the work of Stephen H. Schneider six times. You will recall that Schneider is infamous for telling Discover magazine (October, 1989, p. 45-48) that "we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have...each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest."

2. There has been no sea level rise for the past three years.

3. Hurricane, typhoon, and tropical cyclone activity is at a 30-year low.

4. The satellite data (UAH MSU) currently show that mean global temperature is about the same as it was in June of 1979...no, if anything, it is LOWER.

5. Mean global sea ice is at the 20-year mean level, and the same as it was in 1979 when monitoring began.

6. Global "warming" is based almost entirely on the record from meteorological stations. Anthony Watt's survey of 1221 weather stations is now 70 percent complete, and shows that an astonishing 69 percent of these stations are likely to have serious errors, due to their being located near heat sources such as asphalt paving, air conditioning vents, etc.

After following this subject now since the mid 1980s, I become more skeptical every year. I am now beginning to conclude that global warming simply does not exist.
 

David Deming, Geophysicist

U of Oklahoma

http://climatedepot.com/a/1434/Geologist-rips-Obamas-new-scare-report-I-...

Doug's picture
Doug
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 1 2008
Posts: 2461
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

stocks321

Doing a little googling on Dr. Deming revealed that he is a well known and somewhat colorful right wing apologist for the hydrocarbon industry.  He is willing to defend most right wing causes, with the single laudatory exception of intelligent design, for which he found no scientific basis.  (btw, I found it particularly bizarre that he analogized gun control and a woman's vagina.  He apparently got in some hot water over that one)

http://www.progressivepuppy.com/the_progressive_puppy/2009/01/david-deming-the-mad-scientist.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Deming

Although he has published a number of commentaries on climate change, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of peer reviewed articles on the issue.  He characterized his specialty as scientific history.  I could be wrong, so if you find something peer reviewed, I'd be interested in taking a look.  The article you linked is just a contrarian opinion piece on a contrarian website, and is too recent to have received much response.  I'll reserve judgment for now.

gyrogearloose's picture
gyrogearloose
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 8 2008
Posts: 414
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

Doug

Followed your link.

Despite it starting out looking like a personal attack I read on

There were valid criticisms over the accuracy of his work, but seemed to essentially ignore the issue about his criticism of the accuracy of "the other side" ( a rough overview perspective only )

But back to the article I posted about http://www.john-daly.com/hockey/hockey.htm

No doubt there are some errors in there, but it on the face of it it looks like it brings Micheal Mann's "hockey stick" temperature graph into serious question.

Would you care to actually read it and then comment on it.

Cheers Hamish

Doug's picture
Doug
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 1 2008
Posts: 2461
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

Here is a link to the site mentioned in the RC quote in comment #194 above.  It is a site devoted to debunking the website that Daly created, but is now maintained by others.

http://www.members.iinet.net.au/~johnroberthunter/www-swg/home.html#new4

I don't have time to go through every bit of data Mr. Daly wrote in his piece on the hockey stick, so I tend to rely on the peer reviewed science and the scientists who do it.

Below is an explanation of the 'hockey stick' graph and the context in which it exists.  The important thing is that the theory of AGW does not rise and fall on its validity.  It is one bit of info in vast quantities of data.  Nonetheless, it is valid.

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science_and_impacts/science/past-present-and-future.html

Quote:
3. What is the "hockey stick" graph?

This graph, created by a group of climate researchers in the late 1990s, reflects average Northern Hemisphere temperature changes over the past several centuries. It was the first comprehensive study combining data from many different archives of temperature including tree rings, ice cores, and coral reefs. It demonstrated that Northern Hemisphere temperatures rose sharply during the late 20th century, in marked contrast to the relatively small temperature fluctuations during the previous six centuries. The graph got its name because its shape resembles a hockey stick, with the blade end representing the sharp temperature rise over recent years.

4. Is there legitimate scientific debate about the accuracy of the hockey stick graph?

Yes, but mainly about the details, not the essential point. Temperature fluctuations that predate written records are preserved in natural archives (e.g., tree rings, ice cores, boreholes) with various time periods (e.g., seasonal, annual, decadal). The scientific discussion has focused on the best statistical method for combining these various records to accurately capture temperature fluctuations for the Northern Hemisphere. As is typical of the scientific process, independent teams of researchers have worked to reproduce the results of the "hockey stick" by using their own approaches and even by using slightly different data. These studies sometimes produce slightly higher temperature fluctuations in the past compared with the initial study. But despite their differences, they still yield the same essential conclusion: the past 10- to 20-year period was likely the warmest of the past millennium.

5. How much does our understanding of global warming depend on the hockey stick graph?

The short answer is "very little." The hockey stick graph constitutes only one among literally thousands of pieces of evidence that have contributed to the present scientific consensus on the human influence on global warming. In 2001, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) concluded in its authoritative third assessment report that "there is new and stronger evidence that most of the warming observed over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities." As one climate expert observed: The IPCC report Climate Change 2001: The Scientific Basis is 881 pages in length. It weighs 5.5 pounds and contains over 200 figures and 80 tables. It would be absurd to think that the weight of its conclusions rests on any one figure or table; rather it paints a convincing picture in the totality of its science, as noted succinctly in its title."¹

We are now observing real changes due to higher temperatures. Here are some examples:

  • The Mt. Kilimanjaro glacier, which has survived the past 11,000 years, is currently at risk of disappearing by 2020 if present rates of melting continue;

     

  • Enormous tracts of Siberian peatlands, with vast stores of carbon, are beginning to thaw and release carbon dioxide and methane into the atmosphere;

     

  • The Larsen B ice shelf in Antarctica has lost volume as large chunks (some as large as the state of Rhode Island) have recently broken free and melted;
  • The annual surface area of Arctic sea ice has declined eight percent over the past several decades;
  • Large-scale increases in ocean temperatures have been detected over the past 45 years; and
  • Plants and animals are changing their habitation ranges, sometimes dramatically, such as robins and mosquitoes in the Arctic that were previously unknown there.

Antarctic ice core records vividly illustrate that atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2) levels today are higher than levels recorded over the past 650,000 years (see figure below).  Atmospheric CO2 levels have risen 30 percent in the last 150 years, with half of that rise occurring only in the last three decades. It is a well-established scientific fact that CO2 (and other gases emitted from industrial and agricultural sources) traps heat in the atmosphere, so it is no surprise that we are now witnessing a dramatic increase in temperature.

Compared with other factors that influence climate (including solar variation, volcanic eruptions, and pollutant emissions such as sulfur dioxide), human activities-primarily burning fossil fuels and deforestation-have been a major contributor to climate change over the last 50 years.


 

Atmospheric carbon dioxide record data sources: Keeling and Whorf (2004),
Petit et al. (1999), IPCC (2001), Ahn et al. (2004).
Art credits: astronaut, pyramid: (c) photos.com; car, mammoth: (c) clipart.com.

6. What evidence demonstrates that the recent increase in global temperature is unprecedented?

The National Climate Data Center (NCDC) has maintained global average monthly and annual records of combined land and ocean surface temperatures since 1880, the earliest year for which reliable instrumental records were available worldwide. Based on NCDC data, nine of the top 10 warmest years globally have occurred since 1995. Adding to the evidence of direct temperature measurements, multiple studies by independent teams of researchers indicate that, across the Northern Hemisphere, the 1990s were likely the warmest decade of the past millennium-and possibly the past 2,000 years.

7. How do past climate trends help us understand future temperature?

Reconstructions of past climates help us build accurate projections of how future climates will be affected by global warming. Much as the Air Force builds computer programs to simulate aircraft flight under different conditions, climate scientists build computer programs to help simulate global climate under different conditions. These computer programs, called General Circulation Models (GCMs), use various assumptions about physical, chemical, and biological processes that occur within Earth's atmosphere and oceans and on its land surfaces. To ensure accuracy, each model is checked to see if it generates results that correctly reproduce the past and current climate. Once accuracy is established, the computer program can then be used to explore the likely future climate if, for example, we double the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide.

stocks321's picture
stocks321
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Jul 12 2008
Posts: 91
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

 Talking Climate Change with Anthony Watts

Anyone who regularly tunes into WattsUpWithThat.com, the popular climate-science blog operated by Anthony Watts, will never make fun of TV weathermen again. Watts - who was a TV meteorologist for 25 years - provides a steady diet of smart, always interesting and sometimes deeply complex scientific information and opinion about global climate change.

Q: Is a period of global cooling coming? And if so, what would you point to as evidence of that? 

A: Well, there is a post on my blog today (April 16) about the computer models (of future global average temperatures) starting to diverge from the climate reality. This is something that is really kind of unexpected. The models continue to go up in (global temperature) but the climate reality and the current (global temperature) measurement starts to go down. They are diverging and have been diverging since 2006. There are a number of things that have aligned that make me think that perhaps we are in for a cooling period. The Pacific Decadal Oscillation, for example, has shifted from its warm regime to its cold regime last year. NASA JPL certified this. The last time it switched -- in 1978 -- it switched from a cool regime to a warm regime. We've been riding that warm period all the way since then. 

Q: Is there a quick way to explain what the Pacific Decadal Oscillation is? 

A: It has a larger influence that either El Nina or El Nino. It is a broad swath of water that extends from the Equator up into Alaska that changes the character of the surface temperatures of the Pacific over that broad swath of water. It was discovered by looking into changes in fishery stock by the University of Washington. The fishing stocks were changing and they had no explanation for it. They starting looking for it and they discovered it was linked to the food supply. And the food supply - krill and phytoplankton and all that sort of stuff - was linked to the changes in the temperature of the water. So they discovered this pattern. So it's a broad, wholesale change in the structure of the surface temperature of the Pacific. 

Q: That has obvious influences over the whole climate for years afterwards. 

A: Particularly the United States, because the weather flows from west to east. And particularly California. California had a fairly cool climate prior to 1978. And during the warmer period from 1978 to last year, agriculture boomed in California. Grapes began to be grown in places they haven't been grown before. The wine industry expanded. Agricultural expanded. And it expanded under a warmer climatic regime. Now that warmer climatic regime is in danger of shrinking again. So we may find growing seasons and growing places reduced back to areas that they were historically at in 1978. 

Q: What is the most important, irrefutable truth about the climate of Earth that you wish every schoolchild and every elected official in Washington understood? 

A: That the climate has always changed. It has never been static. In the past it has seen extremes hotter and colder than what we experience today. So change is normal. 

Q: Since you are a meteorologist, I'll put you on the spot. Ten years from now what will we be talking about, global warming or global cooling? 

A: I believe it will be global cooling, based on the fact that there are several things aligning - like the Pacific Decadal Oscillation and the solar patterns and so forth -- to make it appear that we might be in for a period of global cooling. However, I am also prepared to say that I may be completely wrong.

http://townhall.com/columnists/BillSteiger...p;comments=true

 

stocks321's picture
stocks321
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Jul 12 2008
Posts: 91
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

BAD SITING    temperature record

Anthony Watts has clearly shown increasingly bad siting can lead to warm bias.

“During the past few years a team of more than 650 volunteers visually inspected and photographically documented more than 860 of these temperature stations. We were shocked by what we found. We found stations located next to the exhaust fans of air conditioning units, surrounded by asphalt parking lots and roads, on blistering-hot rooftops, and near sidewalks and buildings that absorb and radiate heat. We found 68 stations located at wastewater treatment plants, where the process of waste digestion causes temperatures to be higher than in surrounding areas.
In fact, we found that 89 percent of the stations - nearly 9 of every 10- fail to meet the National Weather Service’s own siting requirements that stations must be 30 meters (about 100 feet) or more away from an artificial heating or radiating/reflecting heat source. In other words, 9 of every 10 stations are likely reporting higher or rising temperatures because they are badly sited.”

The conclusion is inescapable: The U.S. temperature record is unreliable. The errors in the record exceed by a wide margin the purported rise in temperature of 0.7C (about 1.2F) during the twentieth century.

http://icecap.us/images/uploads/NOAAMAY.pdf

What is the purpose of this website?

This website was created in response to the realization that very little physical site survey data exists for the entire United States Historical Climatological Network (USHCN) and Global Historical Climatological Network (GHCN) surface station records worldwide. This realization came about from a discussion of a paper and some new information that occurred on Dr. Roger Pielke Sr. Research Group Weblog.

Why are you doing this? Isn't this the responsibility of our government agency NOAA?

Yes NOAA is responsible for the operation, documentation and upkeep of the USHCN set of weather stations. In fact in 1997 there were concerns expressed by a National Research Council panel about the state of the climate measuring network. 

In 1999, a U.S. National Research Council panel was commissioned to study the state of the U.S. climate observing systems and issued a report entitled: “Adequacy of Climate Observing Systems. National Academy Press”, online here The panel was chaired by Dr. Tom Karl, director of the National Climatic Center, and Dr. James Hansen, lead climate researcher at NASA GISS. That panel concluded:

"The 1997 Conference on the World Climate Research Programme to the Third Conference of the Parties of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change concluded that the ability to monitor the global climate was inadequate and deteriorating."

Yet, ten years later, even the most basic beginning of a recovery program has not been started. No online photographic database existed of the USHCN stations, and despite repeated requests from Dr. Robert A. Peilke Senior at CIRES the project has not been undertaken. Given the lack of movement on the part of NOAA and NCDC, Dr. Peilke also made requests of state climatologists to perform photographic site surveys. A couple responded, such as Roger Taylor in Oregon, and Dev Nyogi in Indiana, but many cited "costs" of such work to thier meager budgets as a reason not to perform surveys.

Given such a massive failure of bureaucracy to perform something so simple as taking some photographs and making some measurements and notes of a few to a few dozen weather stations in each state, it seemed that a grass roots network of volunteers could easily accomplish this task.
 

http://www.surfacestations.org/about.htm 

stocks321's picture
stocks321
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Jul 12 2008
Posts: 91
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

Interview with Freeman Dyson

 Benny Peiser: Britain's leading cosmologists seem to be particularly gloomy about the future of civilisation and humankind. The so-called Doomsday Argument seems to have had a significant influence on many Cambridge-based scientists. It has induced among them a conviction that global catastrophe is almost imminent. Martin Rees, for instance, estimates that there is a 50% chance of human extinction during the next 100 years. How do you explain this apocalyptic mood among leading cosmologists in Britain and the almost desperate tone of their pronouncements?

Freeman Dyson
: My view of the prevalence of doom-and-gloom in Cambridge is that it is a result of the English class system. In England there were always two sharply opposed middle classes, the academic middle class and the commercial middle class. In the nineteenth century, the academic middle class won the battle for power and status. As a child of the academic middle class, I learned to look on the commercial middle class with loathing and contempt. Then came the triumph of Margaret Thatcher, which was also the revenge of the commercial middle class. The academics lost their power and prestige and the business people took over. The academics never forgave Thatcher and have been gloomy ever since.

Benny Peiser
: Your sociological reading raises the question whether the current fashion of issuing doomsday predictions could be interpreted as the revenge by leading academics against the business community? After all, their very activities, success and societal role are blamed for impending catastrophe. Could it be that the scientific prophets of doom are trying to regain some of their lost influence by portraying themselves as saviours who, at the same time, provide governments with strong incentives for increased state power and intervention?

Freeman Dyson
: I agree with your diagnosis of the academic disease. The academics are suffering from business envy, in the USA as well as in Britain.

http://www.staff.livjm.ac.uk/spsbpeis/Freeman-Dyson.htm

 

stocks321's picture
stocks321
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Jul 12 2008
Posts: 91
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

Reason clouded by carbon obsession

ALTHOUGH there are many doubters of man-made climate change, I am not yet one of them. But I remain unconvinced that carbon dioxide is the sole bete noire. Two decades ago, I pored over the spectral properties of the infra-red radiation of this gas, which is essential to plant life, and found that it was almost completely overshadowed by the radiative properties of water vapour, which is vital to all forms of life on earth.

Repeatedly in science we are reminded that happenings in nature can rarely be ascribed to a single phenomenon. For example, sea levels on our coasts are dependent on winds and astronomical forces as well as atmospheric pressure and, on a different time scale, the temperature profile of the ocean. Now, with complete abandon, a vociferous body of claimants is insisting that CO2 alone is the root of climatic evil. 

I fear that many supporters of this view have become carried away by the euphoria of mass or dominant group psyche. Scientists are no more immune from being swayed by the pressure of collective enthusiasm than any other member of the human race. I do not believe for one moment that undisciplined burning of fossil fuels is harmless, but the most awful consequence of the burning of carboniferous fuels is not the release of CO2 but the large-scale injection ofminute particulate pollutants into the atmosphere. 

Detailed studies led by internationally acclaimed cloud physicist Daniel Rosenfeld of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem have revealed that the minute water vapour droplets that form around some carbon particles are so small as to be almost incapable of being subsequently coalesced into larger precipitable drops. In short, the particulates prevent rainfall. 

Rosenfeld's research group has shown that humans are changing the climate in a much more direct way than through the release of CO2. Rather, pollution is seriously inhibiting rain over mountains in semi-arid regions, a phenomenon with dire consequences for water resources in the Middle East and many other parts of the world, including China and Australia.

If Rosenfeld's scientific interpretations are correct, then southern Australia would greatly benefit from the application of his discoveries. At the very least, Rosenfeld's conclusions should be accorded appropriate evaluation and testing by an unprejudiced panel of peers. 

Yet his work so far has been ignored in Australia because it does not fit in with the dominant paradigm that holds CO2 responsible for reduced rainfall in semi-arid regions. 

Scientists, like all other people, need to remain open to competing views and avoid the danger of being locked into tunnel vision through group obsession, which is what global warming seems to have become. 

Peter Schwerdtfeger is emeritus professor of meteorology at Flinders University in Adelaide.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25673679-7583,00.html

 

stocks321's picture
stocks321
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Jul 12 2008
Posts: 91
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

stocks321 wrote:

Professor Ian Plimer’s new book Heaven and Earth has gone into its fifth print run! 

Rowman and Littlefield Publishing has acquired North American rights to In Heaven and Earth: Global Warming: The Missing Science, by leading Australian geologist Ian Plimer. In the book, Plimer makes the scientifically controversial argument that carbon dioxide has an insignificant role in affecting climate. Heaven and Earth was originally released in Australia in May by Connor Court Publishing and has already gone through five printings, after hitting local bestseller lists there. According to R&L, as of May 15, Plimer’s title was #1 on Bookdata, the Australian equivalent of BookScan.

R&L said Plimer refutes much of the science Al Gore presented in his bestselling primer on global warming, An Inconvenient Truth. In a statement from the publisher, Plimer said Gore’s book and documentary are rife with “misrepresentations” and that “trying to deal with these misrepresentations is somewhat like trying to argue with creationists, who misquote, concoct evidence, quote out of context, ignore contrary evidence, and create evidence ex nihilo.”

R&L, through its Taylor Trade imprint, is crashing the book for July 1 and expects the title to stir up debate. Jed Lyons, CEO of R&L, added that the book’s message is particularly urgent. “When our children are being taught that carbon dioxide—food for plants—is a pollutant, and that climate change is somehow unnatural, then clarifying views need to be heard.” 

http://anhonestclimatedebate.wordpress.com/2009/06/13/professor-ian-plim...

One of the most remarkable changes occurred on April 13, when leading global warming hysteric Paul Sheehan—who writes for the main Sydney newspaper, the Sydney Morning Herald, which has done as much to hype the threat of global warming as any Australian newspaper—reviewed Plimer's book and admitted he was taken aback. He describes Plimer, correctly, as "one of Australia's foremost Earth scientists," and praised the book as "brilliantly argued" and "the product of 40 years' research and breadth of scholarship."

What does Plimer's book say? Here is Sheehan's summary:

Much of what we have read about climate change, [Plimer] argues, is rubbish, especially the computer modeling on which much current scientific opinion is based, which he describes as "primitive."…

The Earth's climate is driven by the receipt and redistribution of solar energy. Despite this crucial relationship, the sun tends to be brushed aside as the most important driver of climate. Calculations on supercomputers are primitive compared with the complex dynamism of the Earth's climate and ignore the crucial relationship between climate and solar energy.

To reduce modern climate change to one variable, CO2, or a small proportion of one variable—human-induced CO2—is not science. To try to predict the future based on just one variable (CO2) in extraordinarily complex natural systems is folly.

In response, this is Sheehan's conclusion: "Heaven and Earth is an evidence-based attack on conformity and orthodoxy, including my own, and a reminder to respect informed dissent and beware of ideology subverting evidence." This cannot be interpreted as anything but a capitulation. It cedes to the global warming rejectionists the high ground of being "evidence-based," and it accepts the characterization of the global warming promoters as dogmatic conformists.
 

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/06/24/could_australia_blo...

stocks321's picture
stocks321
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Jul 12 2008
Posts: 91
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

 VIDEO: Professor Ian Plimer Launches Heaven and Earth; A Book About the Hot Air Surrounding Climate Change

VIDEO: Australia's best known Geologist, Ian Plimer, Professor of Mining Geology at The University of Adelaide and Emeritus Professor of Earth Sciences at The University of Melbourne, has just published his seventh book titled "Heaven and Earth, Global Warming: The Missing Science".

http://abnnewswire.net/multimedia/en/60659...ssor-Ian-Plimer

 

Doug's picture
Doug
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 1 2008
Posts: 2461
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

Prof. Plimer's book was not published in a scientific journal (and is not peer reviewed as far as I can tell), but has been reviewed by some credible and worthy sources.  Real Climate took note of the book in a recent article:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/06/groundhog-day-2/

Quote:
The same nonsense, the same logical fallacies, the same confusions - all seem to be endlessly repeated. The same strawmen are being constructed and demolished as if they were part of a make-work scheme for the building industry attached to the stimulus proposal. Indeed, the enthusiastic recycling of talking points long thought to have been dead and buried has been given a huge boost by the publication of a new book by Ian Plimer who seems to have been collecting them for years. Given the number of simply made-up 'facts' in that tome, one soon realises that the concept of an objective reality against which one should measure claims and judge arguments is not something that is universally shared. This is troubling - and although there is certainly a role for some to point out the incoherence of such arguments (which in that case Tim Lambert and Ian Enting are doing very well), it isn't something that requires much in the way of physical understanding or scientific background.

Here is a point by point refutation of Plimer's book by Prof. Ian Enting of the University of Melbourne mentioned in the Real Climate piece:

http://www.complex.org.au/tiki-download_file.php?fileId=91

I don't seem to be able to block and copy material from the article, but it is a very good read if you have the time.  This link presents the latest version of the article as it is being updated as Prof. Enting acquires more information. 

Here is a critical piece on the book by Steve Clarke of Oxford University from an ethical perspective:

http://www.practicalethicsnews.com/practicalethics/2009/05/ian-plimers-climate-change-skepticism.html

Quote:
This is not the place to review the book. What I want to do here is examine at an argument that is advertised as being made in the book in a puff piece written by Vaclav Klaus on the Connorcourt website (Klaus is a former EU president and a well know climate change skeptic). The argument, which Plimer has made before, strikes me as fallacious. In saying this I do not mean to imply that climate change skeptics have no arguments that might be worth considering. They might well. But if they do then it would be a good idea to focus on those arguments and avoid presenting fallacious arguments, which can only damage the case for climate change skepticism, at least amongst attentive readers. The argument of Plimer’s that I want to examine is the claim that we should not worry about changing temperatures because the changes that are under consideration are very minor compared to the large changes that have taken place in the past.

Although the book is being ballyhooed by those in the denialist community, it appears to be just more of the same widely discredited pseudo-science.

stocks321's picture
stocks321
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
Joined: Jul 12 2008
Posts: 91
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

  EPA May Have Suppressed Report Skeptical Of Global Warming
 

Alan Carlin, the primary author of the 98-page EPA report, told CBSNews.com in a telephone interview on Friday that his boss, McGartland, was being pressured himself. "It was his view that he either lost his job or he got me working on something else," Carlin said. "That was obviously coming from higher levels."

Carlin has an undergraduate degree in physics from CalTech and a PhD in economics from MIT. His Web site lists papers about the environment and public policy dating back to 1964, spanning topics from pollution control to environmentally-responsible energy pricing. 

After reviewing the scientific literature that the EPA is relying on, Carlin said, he concluded that it was at least three years out of date and did not reflect the latest research. "My personal view is that there is not currently any reason to regulate (carbon dioxide)," he said. "There may be in the future. But global temperatures are roughly where they were in the mid-20th century. They're not going up, and if anything they're going down." 

Carlin's report listed a number of recent developments he said the EPA did not consider, including that global temperatures have declined for 11 years; that new research predicts Atlantic hurricanes will be unaffected; that there's "little evidence" that Greenland is shedding ice at expected levels; and that solar radiation has the largest single effect on the earth's temperature.
 

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06/26/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry...

Doug's picture
Doug
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 1 2008
Posts: 2461
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/06/bubkes/#more-691

Quote:
First off the authors of the submission; Alan Carlin is an economist and John Davidson is an ex-member of the Carter administration Council of Environmental Quality. Neither are climate scientists. That's not necessarily a problem - perhaps they have mastered multiple fields? - but it is likely an indication that the analysis is not going to be very technical (and so it will prove). Curiously, while the authors work for the NCEE (National Center for Environmental Economics), part of the EPA, they appear to have rather closely collaborated with one Ken Gregory (his inline comments appear at multiple points in the draft). Ken Gregory if you don't know is a leading light of the Friends of Science - a astroturf anti-climate science lobbying group based in Alberta. Indeed, parts of the Carlin and Davidson report appear to be lifted directly from Ken's rambling magnum opus on the FoS site. However, despite this odd pedigree, the scientific points could still be valid.

Quote:
One can see a number of basic flaws here; the complete lack of appreciation of the importance of natural variability on short time scales, the common but erroneous belief that any attribution of past climate change to solar or other forcing means that CO2 has no radiative effect, and a hopeless lack of familiarity of the basic science of detection and attribution.

Quote:
They don't even notice the contradictions in their own cites. For instance, they show a figure that demonstrates that galactic cosmic ray and solar trends are non-existent from 1957 on, and yet cheerfully quote Scafetta and West who claim that almost all of the recent trend is solar driven! They claim that climate sensitivity is very small while failing to realise that this implies that solar variability can't have any effect either. They claim that GCM simulations produced trends over the twentieth century of 1.6 to 3.74ºC - which is simply (and bizarrely) wrong (though with all due respect, that one seems to come directly from Mr. Gregory). Even more curious, Carlin appears to be a big fan of geo-engineering, but how this squares with his apparent belief that we know nothing about what drives climate, is puzzling. A sine qua non of geo-engineering is that we need models to be able to predict what is likely to happen, and if you think they are all wrong, how could you have any faith that you could effectively manage a geo-engineering approach?

Finally, they end up with the oddest claim in the submission: That because human welfare has increased over the twentieth century at a time when CO2 was increasing, this somehow implies that no amount of CO2 increases can ever cause a danger to human society. This is just boneheadly stupid.

So in summary, what we have is a ragbag collection of un-peer reviewed web pages, an unhealthy dose of sunstroke, a dash of astrology and more cherries than you can poke a cocktail stick at. Seriously, if that's the best they can do, the EPA's ruling is on pretty safe ground.

If I were the authors, I'd suppress this myself, and then go for a long hike on the Appalachian Trail….

stocks321

I appreciate your dilemma.  It's just so difficult to find denialist literature that stands up to scientific scrutiny.

Doug's picture
Doug
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 1 2008
Posts: 2461
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

Over on the Controversial Topics thread http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/your-input-requested-how-should-controversial-topics-be-handled/21373 the topic of climate change was brought up as an example of the kinds of subjects that are controversial.  I submitted the following post using climate change to make the case as to why I thought the current level of oversight was appropriate and why I didn't think restructuring the site would be helpful.

Quote:
dtm
Quote:

Global Warming controversial?  Only in America guys.......

Mike

Exactly.  Much of this thread I am filtering through my own experience on this site on the subject of climate change.  There are 3 distinct ways this topic could be viewed. 

1. The first, science, is my pov as it is objective and subject to verification.

2. Political - In the US, as Mike points out, this subject is politically controversial.  The talking heads routinely parrot misinformed interest group propaganda and the populace routinely repeats these assertions as if they have merit.  The blogosphere has hugely magnified the influence of those who spread misinformation.

3. Conspiracy theories - Both sides, I suppose, view their opponents as either part of or sadly misinformed by the conspirators.

My point is that this one topic can lead to heated arguments (not debate as that word implies some sort of boundaries within which fact and rules of order are important).  If I had my preferences I would prefer scientific discussions, because they are fact based and subject to further scientific evidence.  In the case of climate change, the science is clear, although incomplete.  There is, indeed, general consensus in the scientific community on at least the broad outlines of the science, but there are those who claim the scientific community is, itself, a conspiracy.  Who is going to be the arbiter to decide who is making fallacious, uninformed, dishonest, political or otherwise biased comments on the subject, and then consign them to the appropriate thread or section of the site?  I'm not sure any of us could adequately perform that function because we are all subject to bias.

Instead, as in science, I guess I prefer to let everyone make his or her contribution and let the truth sort itself out.  The only restriction I would approve is one of common decency, and I think the moderators have done a fine job of sanctioning those who cross the lines.

Aaron Moyer then posted the following, not in response to me, but to another poster:

Quote:
All the links ever provided on Global Warming were from subjective sources that I can personally verify "skew" data.
At least two other people who are scientists on this forum have refuted the IPCC claims.

I took personal offense at this remark as I am probably the most vocal on this thread and the "Wrenching Transformation" thread in trying to emphasize science in these discussions.  I then posted this:

Quote:
In my case this is blatantly untrue, and I resent the implication.  My posts have been of two types.  First, I post links to the actual research and scientists who do it, or to writings about them.  Second, I refute assertions by the denialists who post clearly and easily disproven pseudoscience that is repeated endlessly all over the blogosphere.  I wish those who post such nonsense in the first place would do the minimal bit of research necessary to demonstrate the lack of veracity of many of their proclamations.

Aaron then responded:

Quote:
Doug,

Thank you for proving my point. Dogmatic, and clearly both conjectural and controversial.

The IPCC is absolutely NOT an unbiased source. Any panel created to do anything on tax-payer funds must find that their necessary, or by default that entity becomes vestigial, and loses its funding. Climate is not the only area where nebulous findings equal sustained fiscal support; the Salmon of the Columbia River have been slowly dying off so that biologists can run tests on how to sustain their population.

After 21 years, they are alive only because the hatcheries haven't stopped spawning them. Humans have essentially eliminated the habitat and stock of wild fish. Climate is, and will be the exact same. Nebulous results with ominous implications. Solutions? Never! It'd mean WORK rather than RHETORIC.

Any claims counter to what you accept on the good faith of others is lambasted as "blogosphere pseudoscience".
Quite clearly, several of us, trained as scientists have found the IPCC report lacking and wanting in the area of evidence to support their claim.

Those of us who have done the "minimal bit of research", and have some background in the subject have found it inconclusive, and as such conjectural. Reviewing some of the threads, I noted two atmospheric physicists who came to the same conclusion as I. Don't take it as an attack, it simply is what it is.

Your assertions are not fact checked either - simply cross referenced with people who believe what you believe.
I truly hope you see the wisdom in divorcing yourself from such doxology and taking a less biased view of the issue.

It truly is not "proven", and again, as a atmospheric scientist, I do not see any evidence that leads me to believe it is irrefutably a human phenomonon, nor a runaway train to oblivion.

I attempted to post a response but it disappeared.  I don't know if a moderator pulled it or if it was just one of those occasional glitches that happen, but nonetheless I'm going to make another effort to respond.  I think, however, that this exchange is more appropriate to this thread as we have a history here and the "Controversial Topic" thread should be reserved for that subject.  I don't have time to respond at the moment so will do it later. 

A. M.'s picture
A. M.
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Oct 22 2008
Posts: 2171
Re: Global Climate Change: is it worth brushing off?

Doug,

Sorry if it looks as if I'm attacking you. I'm really not. We've had good exchanges in the past, and I am always drawn to your posts... if only to bicker a bit.

That said, my deliema is with the source of information, and the inconsistencies therein.
Not that it'll do much good, but I just want to re-assure you that any thoughts I share on the matter are indeed my own, and I spend VERY little time considering this subject outside the course of my daily involvement.
In general, the IPCC omits information where convenient, presents information that is irrelavant to the topic at hand, and cites arbitrary figures that have no real context.

Perhaps I'm not honed to the same scientific edge that they are - that is certainly possible.
That said, I just can't believe some of the very rudimentary problems in their case. Even if it is correct.

Again, I've argued against people who "dismiss" global warming, because I think it is something worth watching and studying.
The "talking heads" who just regurge information won't find an ally in me.

My main hope is that people will remain objective and considerate about this concept, but be cautious not to buy into dogma.

It's literally alarming how strongly people believe in this with such crude evidence.
The only thing I can compare it to is religion.

Cheers,

Aaron

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Login or Register to post comments