The Definitive Firearms Thread

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Sam. We know who is the boss in the house.

Hell, I am not even married (yet) and I already know the answer. 

She's sleeping in bed next to me as a type.  Surprised

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

MGhandi wrote:
Optics. What's your take on putting a wideview low magnification scope on the .30-30? I'm thinking that's an extra 20-30 boxes of 12 Ga shells. Most .30-30 shots are at under 100 yards.

For me, it's acquisition speed. If you've never used a red dot, it's a bit difficult to describe.

Spin to your 180 with iron vs. red dot, and I bet I'll beat you 80% of the time to target. It's not perfect, and is one more point of failure, so to each his own. PS, I can make 20 boxes of shells in a couple hours for very little $, so that's not a determining factor for me. Send me your address and promise to send the hulls back, and I'll send you a box to play with in your new gun. I am currently se up for trap at 2 3/4" 8 shot maximum loads. Weather is perfect for trap or skeet right now, no better way to learn the new shotgun handling.

The .30-30 wouldn't look right with anything other than iron sites!

 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

R_Eddy wrote:
SamLinder wrote:

As for your final paragraph: Let's see wife or gun, wife or gun, hmmmmmm.........................  Wink

Sam, I'm guessing your wife doesn't frequent the gun shops or CM.com!

Rog

HA - lucky guess!  Wink

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

MGhandi wrote:

Sam. We know who is the boss in the house.

Hell, I am not even married (yet) and I already know the answer. 

She's sleeping in bed next to me as a type.  Surprised

MGhandi,

Well, let's be realistic here - which is nicer to sleep next to - gun or wife?

Only those who remember Jack Benny will get this: "I'm thinking, I'm thinking!" Wink

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Hi Sam,

Being 49, I remember Jack Benny and his appearances on the tonight show n the early 1970s and, I think, a TV show he had around the same time? I always liked him and was sad when he died back in the 70s. I am too young to remember his older material that I did not run across in some movie or re-reun but you mentioning his name brought back nostalgic memories including the caricature on a Warner Brothers cartoon from the mid 1940s!!

Firearms:

Should be picking up a Saiga 12 gauge AR style shot gum tomorow Picked up a Remington 870 a little over 2 weeks ago.

Excelsior!

Septimus 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Interesting how this thread has increased in traffic since the Fed started buying treasuries, beginning of the end?

I thought I'd repost this video in case anyone has missed it,

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Thanks for the video Greg, I missed it and I'm glad I got to see it...Jeff

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Jarhett,

Sorry for the delay - mondo headache last night.

H&K make a good pistol, but it's a mechanical device that can fail, just like any other.
They have excellent marketing, and a price that says "luxury". Like most things German, they tout their superior engineering and pioneering ways, but hidden in the weeds are some ugly facts:

1. H&K pistols don't have any features or abilities that other modern, quality pistols do not - including reliability, durability or accuracy.

2. H&K Pistols are made to be "service pistols"; they are wide, bulky and engineered to be such. They're not good pistols for concealed carry with a slim profile and rounded edges (like the Sig or Glock).

3. H&K has a vigorous campaign to disallow sales to citizens. Companies like SIG and FN sell their rifles to US civilian markets in Semi-auto configurations, but H&K? No siree. They have to be "sporterized", use propriatary magazines and cost 2-3 times what a decent quality rifle should.

Point three has more to do with their general philosophy than their quality, but to make this brief, when you buy an H&K, you're paying for a name.

No different than buying a BMW. It looks nice, it has a reputation, it's insanely expensive to fix, and really no more mechanically sound than anything else.

I like analogies, so continuing on with that, a pistol for me is a lot like a vehicle. You have to choose one that suits your lifestyle.
A good carry gun should be like a Toyota Pickup. Fuel efficient (Good capacity, doesn't require oddball ammo), Robust (Good finish, reputation for hard work) and comfortable (easy to carry). There are several of these pistols; the M&P, the Glock 19/23, the Walther (I'm still scared of hinged triggers - to include the M&P).

Then there are full sized trucks - hearty, rough vehicles that suck fuel, are heavy and if left alone, they'll run a good long time. I think the 1911 falls into this catagory, and to a lesser degree, the Beretta M9.

Then there are cars Like the BMW. They sits in the garage under a tarp. You show your buddies and they ask "Wow, how much did that cost?" H&K's are safe queens - they're too nice to use hard, and too expensive to repair.

Anyway - this is HEAVILY opinionated - so take it with a grain of salt. Other users may have different experiences, but because of my build, I can't carry "thick" pistols like the H&K. I do like some of their features, and would have absolutely no qualms about carrying on "open" for duty - but for a daily driver, I'll take the Toyota truck =)

Cheers!

Aaron

(PS - any of you H&K owners feel free to chime in with dissent! I know they have a loyal following)

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Ha ha thanks for the analogies Aaron, that really does help clear things up. I definately do not want to be no fancy pants gun diva.  

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Aaron and or others with experiance...

What do you like for a holster ?? I have a Glock 19 and would like to find a way to have it on me and accessable. My current state will never allow a CCW but I may (probably) not stay here ......

Thanks in advance...

Kaisdad

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Jarhett,

Glad to help brother!
Don't get me wrong, the H&K isn't a diva gun - it's more of a lawyer gun that sits in a drawer and only occasionally gets driven to the range ;)
 
Now a tiger stripped Desert Eagle - that's a Diva gun!

Kaisdad,

The holster is probably the single most important accessory you can buy for your pistol. In fact, it could probably be a whole thread, in and of itself! 
A holster will make the difference between carrying it and not, in most cases, so there are many things to consider

A few questions to help determine your needs:
1. Will you be carrying every day?
2. Will you be taking the holster off frequently? (1-2 times per day? More?)
3. What is your general climate? Warm, cold, seasonal?
4. What is your style of dress? Casual (Jeans and a T-shirt?) Formal (Suit?) or somewhere inbetween?
5. What is your Physical build? Are you tall or short, thick or thin?
6. Do you want to carry inside the waistband, or outside? 
7. Do you want Kydex (composite plastic) or Leather?
8. Lastly, and possibly most important - what type of pistol will you be carrying (G19, in your case)

A person of large build who is not obese can have an easier time carrying a large pistol. I'm average height and weight, and have a very hard time wearing a full frame pistol. However, they may have a hard time carrying "inside the waistband, where as a person who is thin may find it much easier.
I have to "dress" around a full sized pistol - which makes it uncomfortable in the summer, so I typically carry IWB with a medium sized gun.

It's also generally mild where I live (PNW) and I can often wear a hooded sweatshirt (which is excellent for CCW) or a light jacket. However, this presents the problem of "deep concealment" whereas one must "dig" for the pistol a little more than a guy just wearing a button up shirt and khakis.

Answer some of those questions, and we can start working to find a good setup specifically for you!

For what it's worth, I've been through various holsters; Blade techs, uncle mikes, blackhawk, and various others, and the clear "winner" has been the Comp-Tac C.T.A.C. for my G19.
It's not cheap, but I literally wear it every day, and it's held up like a champ, holds the pistol low, and secure, and conceals it well.
http://www.comp-tac.com/product_info.php?products_id=61

Cheers, and I hope this helps!

Aaron

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Double post.
Cheers!

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Aaron,

Just back in country and I was shocked to see your post on HK weapons.

 I completely disagree with your breakdown of HK weaponry......did one let you down in a tough spot?

I own and use a number of HK products- rifles and pistols- extremely accurate and very reliable.

The HK P7M8 is probably one of the best carry guns ever designed, safe to carry with one in the pipe and blazing fast to put rounds on target, and a lot easier on the waist (or anywhere else) than anything made by glock.

I have abused the various HK subguns in a many ways without a major problem.

The HK 91/93 family are also excellent rifles (once you figure out how to take the bolt apart) hard to find nowdays because of import restrictions..

The USP full size forty five, I have used in hunting and competition with excellent results.

The HK's recent offerings I am not very familiar with, but I would purchase one with no hesitation, and perhaps I will to give a futher review on the newest lines..

However, they are expensive, the older ones are hard to find and are even more expensive. But they offer a quality weapon...

I think my HK's would get a good laugh if they heard someone call them a lawyer's gun.....they would probably drop a mag...

I also have a toyota four wheel drive...

 Also:

For holsters....don't forget GALCO, great leather holsters, made in USA, they support the troops, and make some excellent polymer holsters in the Matrix line... for about 30 and change

Larry

 

 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Larry,

I don't own, and have never owned an H&K pistol - as I said - they're fine, but what you pay for is not in line with what you get.
That said, all the ones I've fired have been "good", and I've fired quite a few of their products. 
They're good. Not great, not phoenomonal, but good.

With regards to the MP5 - we're talking a apples to pumpkins comparison.
The MP5 is an excellent weapon, but again, FN offers its P90, why is there not a Civilian sale MP5?
H&K's reluctance to sell "ordinary" people weapons, which is my chief complaint against them, and the reason I won't buy their products.

I could liken their pistols to AR's as well; I've fired Colts, FN's Bushmasters, Armalites, Full autos, semiautos and 3rb models - and beyond some of the cost, a Colt is not $600 better than a Bushmaster.
They're good, but they're not that good.

A pistol that will perform every bit as well, is every bit as accurate and will serve for every bit as long can be had for literally hundreds of dollars less.
The magazines cost half the amount, and they are easier to find spare parts for.
...and they have no heartburn recognizing citizens are legitimate gun owners - unlike H&K.

As for the "lawyers gun" comment - it was tongue in cheek...
Most of the civilian shooters I see with LMT's, LaRue tacticals or Colt 6's are guys with a lot of money, who never really shoot.

Anyhow, my experience with H&K has left me with a "Crowd goes mild" approach, their customer service (lack thereof) and disdain of citizens as gun owners is enough to talk me out of spending my money with them.

Again - opinions only. Others may have different experiences.

Cheers!

Aaron

PS - it's worth mentioning that I immediately assumed that the "H&K Pistol" in question was a USP.
Not a P series VP7 or anything else. My experience with H&K pistols has been entirely with the USP series and the USP compact.

 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Aaron -

If you get a chance you should shoot the HK45 and 45C.  Just a touch smaller than the USP - I like the 'feel' a lot better.  Still has a blocky profile, but I left side carry in a shoulder holster anyway so it's mitigated a bit when wearing a jacket.  Once the weather warms up that will likely pose a challenge since I started carrying concealed routinely last fall. 

May have to rethink my stance on the "matchbox" Glocks.............Cool

Just curious - I understand your protest against the H&K civilian sales policy (I still won't buy anything Toshiba because of the national security compromise they abetted in back in the early 80s), but if cost isn't an object, and quality isn't in question, well, why? 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

This is a general comment for the "what's the dang problem with all you Gun People?" portion of the thread:

(Setting aside the idea that we all have to fight like heck to accomplish the things we feel make the world a better place, either in politics or personal life...i.e., just 'cause I'm live-and-let-live doesn't mean I'm a passive sort overall...I grind a few axes.) 

I've always been an optimist and a believer in the best in people.  That's cost me some over the years, as not everyone I want to trust is worthy of such.  But all in all, my general stance is to give folks the benefit of the doubt.

But in the last 8 or so years, IMO the world has changed a lot.  In pre-911 America I believed that in general things were always getting a little better all the time.  Maybe not fast enough for a progressive type like myself, but hell, the world's a big place, people usually choose to learn the hard way (often several times before a lesson sticks), and as long as I felt we were moving up the chain of consciousness I was generally content to live-and-let-live.  

Someone in this thread said that in an ideal world we wouldn't need guns.  

Well, it ain't an ideal world.  And it's fallen down so far recently that even I, who was never anti-gun but never in my strangest dreams would've thought I'd buy one, am now the owner of a firearm.  (relatively plain, if solid quality, shotgun) 

Somebody in the thread said they've been to a gun shop several times but sort of freak out and have to bail w/out making a purchase.  That was me, brother.  In the store, having a rather intense experience of how surreal it was.  If I hadn't brought a hunting/shooting enthusiast buddy along (to buck me up and to make sure I didn't make a stupid buy), I can't say I'd have made it through.  Sweaty palms, racing heart, sorta mild tunnel-vision.  In the world of fight-or-flight, my brain was screaming "FLIGHT!"

But:  we picked out the piece.  Selected a variety of ammo (from the rather slim pickings).  Did the background check (another surreal moment for certain).  Purchased the lot.  

Now, I'm signing up for a safety course.  Joining a local shooting range.  Putting in the paperwork for a pistol carry permit.  And convincing the wife I'm not off the deep end.  

It still hasn't really sunk in.  And I'm frankly still intimidated by the thought of shooting the thing.  But one step at a time.  Within a month I should have a greenhorn's familiarity with it (i.e., not a danger to myself or the peeps around me).  And assuming I have six months or so pre-SHTF, I guess I'll be ready enough if some desperate/wicked folks try something desperate or wicked.  

I'm a gentle, thoughtful dude.  But I'll also take care of me'n'mine.  If I must.

Thanks (belatedly) to all the informative folks (I guess Aaron & DIAP come immediately to mind, but there are a number of others) who put up helpful info on this subject.  It made my decision easier and smarter when the time came.

VIVA -- Sager 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Aaron,

In looking at the Glock web site, I found the following information:

Model                         Total length      Barrel length     Magazine Capacity       Weight (unloaded)     Style
Number  Cartridge   (mm)     (in)      (mm)     (in)     Standard    Optional        (g)        (oz)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
19, 19C   9x19mm    174     6.85     102     4.01         15     10, 17, 19, 33           595     21               Compact

26           9x19mm     160     6.30       88      3.46         10     12, 15, 17, 19, 33     560     19.8            Subcompact

* Glock pistols designated by "C" after the model number are equipped with ported barrels and slides to compensate for muzzle rise.

What is the difference between the 19 and the 26? For CCW, it would appear the 26 would be preferable.

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Sager,

Thanks for the comment and compliment... it's amazing how relavant that experience is, and how intimidating a gun shop can be to someone who isn't "comfortable" with that mentality.
I tried to get a cousin into shooting one time, took him to the Bullseye in Tacoma, and he freaked. Told me he wanted to leave because "you could cut the paranoia in here with a knife".
Not true of course, but perception is, more often than not, an individual reality.
Thank you for sharing your experience.

Dogs,

I got thinking about it after reading Larry's post - and I'm not sure how I said the H&K was anything other than a decent product, just not ideal for me. I'd love to spend some time behind some of their newer designs, and I *do* believe they're quality - just not significantly better than some of the other options on the market.
I'll have to get some trigger time behind them.

Larry

I have a tendancy to be a bit "narrow minded" in my replies sometimes; I answered generally, and should have taken more time to examine the pros and cons more objectively.
The G21, for example, I have no interest in. I'd prefer a HK USP .45.
Answers vary with situations, I'll try and be more considerate of situation in my future replies.

Sam,

Funny you should ask, I actually have a comparison handy that I did some time back...
Unfortunately, it's the G17 and G26 - but the main points will stand:
G17/G26

Notice on the G26 (bottom pistol) that the magazine has a finger groove. Without that, you will not be able to fit your pinky on the grip. This makes it difficult to grip without the "base plate" with the finger groove. The G19 is directly inbetween the size of the pistol above.
In fact, the grip on the G19 is just about the same size as the G26 with the finger groove, so if you intend to use one, the G19 may be a better option - as it has a longer barrel, which means longer sight radius, which roughly translates to better accuracy.

Having both, I can say with certaintly I like the G19 much better. The G26 is an excellent pistol, and is very accurate for its size - but it's more difficult to get a good grip on it, fast reloads may result in a pinched hand, and it holds 5 less rounds.

The G17 is not desirable for CCW in my opinion. It's long, and the grip protrudes badly - making it hard to dress around.

 The weight between the two is almost negligable; the biggest difference is actually the loaded magazines.
The Length; the G19 is about a half inch longer, which in my opinion is a good compromise between ultra concealable and accurate.

So, a quick recap:
G19: little heavier, Little longer, little taller, holds 5 rounds more than the 26 and can be equipped with a light.
G26: Lighter, smaller and holds fewer rounds, but easier to conceal.

Hope this helps!
Cheers,

Aaron

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Aaron Moyer wrote:

Sager,

Thanks for the comment and compliment... it's amazing how relavant that experience is, and how intimidating a gun shop can be to someone who isn't "comfortable" with that mentality.
I tried to get a cousin into shooting one time, took him to the Bullseye in Tacoma, and he freaked. Told me he wanted to leave because "you could cut the paranoia in here with a knife".
Not true of course, but perception is, more often than not, an individual reality.
Thank you for sharing your experience.

Hmmm..."you could cut the paranoia in here with a knife."  Sounds like a little projection.  Not that I'm not sympathetic for certain.  [smile]

Viva,  Sager 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Aaron Moyer wrote:

Sam,

Funny you should ask, I actually have a comparison handy that I did some time back...
Unfortunately, it's the G17 and G26 - but the main points will stand:
G17/G26

Notice on the G26 (bottom pistol) that the magazine has a finger groove. Without that, you will not be able to fit your pinky on the grip. This makes it difficult to grip without the "base plate" with the finger groove. The G19 is directly inbetween the size of the pistol above.
In fact, the grip on the G19 is just about the same size as the G26 with the finger groove, so if you intend to use one, the G19 may be a better option - as it has a longer barrel, which means longer sight radius, which roughly translates to better accuracy.

Having both, I can say with certaintly I like the G19 much better. The G26 is an excellent pistol, and is very accurate for its size - but it's more difficult to get a good grip on it, fast reloads may result in a pinched hand, and it holds 5 less rounds.

The G17 is not desirable for CCW in my opinion. It's long, and the grip protrudes badly - making it hard to dress around.

The weight between the two is almost negligable; the biggest difference is actually the loaded magazines.
The Length; the G19 is about a half inch longer, which in my opinion is a good compromise between ultra concealable and accurate.

So, a quick recap:
G19: little heavier, Little longer, little taller, holds 5 rounds more than the 26 and can be equipped with a light.
G26: Lighter, smaller and holds fewer rounds, but easier to conceal.

Hope this helps!
Cheers,

Aaron

Aaron - great reply!  The picture helped tremendously and the description was clear as a bell.

One thing I like about the 19C is that it is "equipped with ported barrels and slides to compensate for muzzle rise." That should help with accuracy as well.

Thanks for sharing! Smile

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Ehrm...re my post #289.  If it's not painfully apparent, this supposedly tech-savvy d00d has not quite mastered the "quote" function, and only the first paragraph belongs to Aaron.

And oh yes -- further credit for illumination in the firearms department:  Joe2baba and JWR & cohort over at survivalblog.

 

Viva -- Sager 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Sam,

Jesus wept, I'm glad you brought that up! I kept meaning to address the issue of porting and compensation, but forgot.

OK - now this may be:
1. REAL important - if you intend to fight with your firearm
2. Marginally important - if you're buying a gun to keep in the house in the event of an Emergency
3. Not really important at all - if you're buying a gun just to have, and rarely, if ever shoot.

Porting on a firearm accomplishes one major task, and that task is dampening recoil. It does that by diverting gases upward, generally through "ports" that channel it symetrically.
This can help stabilize the weapon (sometimes it doesn't do that well, depending on if it's a rotating bolt, which channels energy in a "clockwise" motion".

Now, there are several "unintentional" side effects that come along with it:
1. First and foremost - if you fire at night, in low light or in total darkness, it will BLOW your nightvision.
The "average" for humans eyes to adjust (or re-adjust) at night is about 20 seconds. For those of us with older eyes or astigmatism, it can be longer.

2. If your firing from a retention position, (picture below for reference) to maintain control of your weapon in extreme close quarters, the fire may actually ignite your clothing, or burn your skin.
Guarded Sul:

 

High Guarded Sul:

So if you're in a situation where someone is trying to take the weapon, and it's very near your body, Porting can cause injury that is otherwise avoidable.

It's up to the individual to decide whether or not this sacrifice is worth it.
Personally, I don't believe so.

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Wow - glad I mentioned it. It seemed like a great feature until you pointed out the inherent hazards.

OK - now this may be:

1. REAL important - if you intend to fight with your firearm
2. Marginally important - if you're buying a gun to keep in the house in the event of an Emergency
3. Not really important at all - if you're buying a gun just to have, and rarely, if ever shoot.

I'm looking at all three. I hope I never have to shoot (#3), however, in the event of an Emergency (#2) I may have to in which case I fully intend to fight with my firearm (#1).  Back to the G19.

Thanks, Aaron - as usual great info!  Laughing

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Sam,

Glad to help you my friend!
If you're interested, I'd be happy to go to the range with you and go through some TTP's (Tactics, Techniques and Procedures)

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Sam: I am a recent G19 owner and while I can't hope to follow up with the information that Aaron has, but I've put about 1500 rds. through mine so far and it has worked flawlessly. Further, I found that it is a good size and weight that feels good in my hand save for one thing: the grip itself. Like Aaron, I initially did not like the grip at all. It's not devastating, it just isn't as ergonomic as some of the other pistols I've shot. It's not a big deal to adapt around it.Finally, as a relatively new gun owner, I found the G19 to be easy to clean and maintain. Also, the 15 round magazine seems to be an appropriate size when compared to the other options.

I strongly recommend it and if you have any second thoughts on a Glock, check out post #183 to see just how much abuse a Glock can (apparently) take. Stupid experiment and very dangerous for that person, but it only makes me feel better about mine!

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Aaron,

No sweat on the HK comments, just thought they were a bit too one sided for an informational reply...everyone here knows you are a glock man..and I agree Glocks are great guns, I use them sometimes and have a good selection to choose from...

I would imagine that if you every shot one- you would appreciate the HKP7M8 squeeze cocker for an excellent carry piece, much more concealable than the blocky, thick glocks, but at around 1500 or so not really a choice for everyone.

As far as the HK USP, the design team included Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn two gun guys to say the least.. and I like it, but it is designed to be a service weapon, but I can conceal it effectively except in the hottest months of the year..

 What ever works for the individual is the proper choice- hand size, strength, experience, carry aspects, price -all factor into deciding on what works for each specific individual.If all a person can afford is a second hand Lorcin- it's better than throwing rocks and a step in the right direction. Politics and company policy aside- if that is the weapon you are best with- buy it and use it..

I do enjoy reading your posts as you are walking a first time gun owner/buyer though the process..excellent job. The more armed citizens the better...

 

Sam,

in response to an earlier post, it is best if no one knows you carry a concealed weapon...even your wife, properly concealed she would not even have to know.

G19 is a good choice, I agree with aaron, and would not choose a ported weapon for carry... Porting may help you shave some time in competitions but really does nothing for the 9mm except make big flames out of the barrel at night...just practice as much as possible and incorporate some movement and postion variation in your practice routine...better yet go to a local school for an " entry level handgun class'. and put some lead downrange.

 

Larry

Morpheus's picture
Morpheus
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 27 2008
Posts: 1154
Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Sam. How many firearms do you own?

Ohh guys. I changed my username. That's probably the only time that I'll change it as it can become annoying.

(This is Ghandi)

capesurvivor's picture
capesurvivor
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 12 2008
Posts: 943
Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

I have HK P7M8; fine weapon. Squeezecocker is excellent and practical safety. Excellent pointability and sights for near dark.

Would probably shoot cigar butts without feed ramp modification, IMHO.

It was a lot cheaper when I got it. No longer in production. (I think).

I don't like the Glocks, plastic pistols.

SG

Jarhett's picture
Jarhett
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Nov 21 2008
Posts: 132
Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

I showed my brother Aaron's post and I thought you guys might be interested in his response.  What do you guys think about his claim on the caliber of weapon one should carry?

I know that I have carried the Glock 19, Glock 22, Beretta 92F, and
the HK.  The HK has been the finest so far.  It handles all ammo
without problem.  Others jam and stovepipe with cheap ammo.  I know
that my life has and will again depend on me carrying a high quality
firearm.  I have confidence in the HK, and have confidence in the
Springfield Armory XD. 

 
The round is also important.  the 9MM is used by many, but too
many people do not stop when hit with it.  Some people have to be hit
several times for the desired effect to be realized.  The 40 is better,
but still has the same problem.  The 45 has a much higher incident of
one shot stops. 
 
I was at a Dept shoot one time.  They had a 73 Lincoln Town Car
down range and targets set up behind and in it.  The 9MM would dent the
car, but would not penetrate the body with any degree of consistency. 
The 40 would penetrate one side of the body and stop.  The 45 would
penetrate one door and the other door as well.  The round would still
hit the target.  That sold me on the 45 and to a lesser degree the 40
capesurvivor's picture
capesurvivor
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Sep 12 2008
Posts: 943
Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

That's my only regret about the P7..9MM.

I've put a 9mm through an engine block, though. I guess they really made those old Lincolns well.

Penetration and stopping power...two different entities, though. They have some pretty good 9 mm rounds.

SG

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