The Definitive Firearms Thread

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

does anyone know what a good price is for a new AR-15? I was thinking even for investment purposes it would beat keeping cash, right?

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Paranoid,

Absolutely right it will. In fact, guns (especially "black rifles") are without a doubt in my mind, destined to skyrocket in value.

The reason is I can't imagine that Obama won't choose to ban these weapons at some point in time; and, there are too many to collect... which equals "grandfathering". Which means the guys who have them can keep them, transfer them and so on and so fourth. When this happened with Machineguns in 1986, the prices of a New model, fully automatic Colt M16 was about $500-600. A semi-automatic of that vintage is going for $1200 now, and the full autos are in the neighborhood of $15,000. If you can find someone willing to part with it.

Right now, in our market, a Good price would be right around $950. Keep in mind, there are several manufactures that are cheaper, and of much lower quality. Steer clear of Hesse and Blackthorne.

A Stag, CMMG, Bushmaster or Rock River arms at that price would be a bargain. The upper end price will be more along the lines of $1,100. Which is still not "terrible".

For an "upper end" AR - Colt, LMT, Wilson etc, be ready to spend about $1,600-1,800.
In my opinion, these are not really worth the extra price. You're paying for a slightly better product, but most of that money goes to "bragging rights" because you bought a big name.

Your best bet is the CMMG in my opinion. I've been continually impressed by their level of quality, and reasonable price. I've owned quite a few AR's, and I would not hesitate to make my next one a CMMG.

That said, I'm also experimenting with a couple cheaper kits to see if the "quality" is there. They're Del-Ton kits, and I'll be building them myself. I'll post up a report once I've had a chance to inspect and put them through the drop test, a few magazines of bad ammo and some crappy conditions.

I'll let you all know how they do. They're currently 12-16 weeks backordered.

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Aaron thanks so much - this is your thread and a definitave source for these issues! I appreciate your feedback! It is a Stag, so a fair price it seems.

 Whats a good price/source for the shells?  local or online?

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Good luck Pete!  We'll keep a good thought...

Viva -- Sager 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Pete In Florida wrote:

See all of you in a few days. Check into the hospital at 5:30, surgery at 7:30, out of surgery by 10 am or so. Getting a  disk removed, possible fusion too. 

I'll be out for a few days unless I am feeling well enough to kill inpatient time surfing on the 3G phone. But "morphine drip" was mentioned so I have my doubts.

Better living through chemistry.

Good luck Pete - hurry back.

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Aaron Moyer wrote:

Hey all,

I really hate to do this, but I preach political activism, so here goes...
Obama has nominated Cass Sunstein for the post of "Regulatory Czar", who is a total fruit loop. He's suggested that animals should be able to sue humans, and has repeatedly argued for banning both guns and hunting outright.

Since this is a thread devoted to discussion of the responsible use of arms, I feel it's very important that we take steps to keep guys like this from "ascending" to power. I know this website looks a bit "sensation", but I urge you to take the time, look it over, and act if you feel it represents your feelings, interest and our nations ideals of civil liberties:

http://www.stopsunstein.com/
And if you do, please sign the petition.

Thanks for looking, and lets hope they don't make criminals out of us through no fault or wrongdoing on our part.
8-\

Aaron

Hi Aaron,

I signed the petition and sent it on. Unfortunately, my senators are Feinstein and Boxer. One is more left than the other.

Ken

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

KenC,

*wince* They probably won't listen. Thank you for trying anyway.

Paranoid,

For 5.56 rounds, there are several types to consider:
- Training
* Wolf
* Silver Bear/Brown Bear
* Winchester White Box (generally pistol)

- "Fighting"
* M193 (And XM193 - the slightly lower quality civilian variant)
* M855 (Iron Core Penetrator [Green tip])
* "Match Grade" or "Tactical" ammo (TAP, etc)

Insofar as the difference, it's important to note that the good "training" ammos are less desirable for several reasons;
- Lower accuracy
- Dirty powder (produces a visible signature, and causes a big *poof* of smoke) 
- Steel or nickel cased (brittle in the heat or cold; the case rims will snap off, cartridges will expand in the throat causing failures to extract... particularly bad in tandem)

As you'd expect, the "fighting" quality ammo is cleaner burning so you're harder to locate if you're firing, produces better accuracy, has more reliable penetration and fragmentation characteristics.

I generally buy in bulk, so as to cut costs.
I've seen XM193 going for $8.99 - $11.89/ box. Which roughly works out to being about $400/1k - $500/1k.
Training ammunition is typically going for about $6.00 +/-... or about $290/1k.

Ammunition has gone through the roof; but if you can find it... I suggest buying it. With taxes being leveled against nearly everything, it won't be long before ammunition becomes unaffordable under the tax burden. 

I hope this helps!

Cheers

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Good info Aaron - I guess only shoot the steel or nickel case in temperate weather then. Any accessories you think are a must have for this rifle? After reading much of your posts - I assume a good scope, and maybe something for night abilities too.

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Paranoid,

I'm a fan of good quality optics (I've been failed by several of the "cheap" brands) and a flashlight on a carbine.

Beyond that, the Badger Tac-Latch is a functional improvement that can be had for about $20.
http://www.botachtactical.com/tacticallatch.html

If you use the "training" grade ammo just for plinking/practice, it'd be fine in any climate really, just make sure you know your stoppage drills.
Here they are:

Type 1 - Failure to fire: Upon pulling the trigger, you hear "click". Indicates either an empty chamber, or a round that has a bad primer.

Remedy: "Tap, Rack, Bang" Tap your magazine, rack the bolt, realign sights and fire.

Type Two - Failure to Feed, Failure to Eject: Upon pulling the trigger, the hammer falls short, and a light "click" is heard, indicating that the bolt is not fully in battery and there is an obstruction in the chamber.

Remedy: "Tap, Tug, Rack, Flip" Tap your magazine and pull it downward to make sure it's well seated. Pull your charging handle all the way to the rear, and flip your rifle sideways, with the ejection port facing the ground, effect dumping the chamber obstruction. Let the bolt return to the locked position, reaquire target and fire.

Type Three: Stove Pipe: Similar feel to a "type two"; upon inspection, the chamber has a spent cartridge in the throat, and the bolt has a second round lodged into the primer of the first.

Remedy: Remove magazine, Rack the bolt three times, allowing to return to the locked positon at full speed/force, and insert fresh magazine, and rack a fourth time. Reaquire target and fire.

I hope this helps, if there is interest, I can do either a pictorial or a video presentation on the types of malfunctions.
These are the industry standard for the AR platform. With any platform of rifle, the drills remain largely the same, though some are easier or more difficult to remedy.

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Aaron Moyer wrote:

Remedy: "Tap, Rack, Bang" Tap your magazine, rack the bolt, realign sights and fire.

Damn, that brings me back to my Army days! I can't imagine what it was like for the sergeant at the firing range have to deal with a couple of dozen doctors pretending they were Rambo for the day! 

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Aaron Moyer wrote:

...just make sure you know your stoppage drills.

Good stuff to know. I'd be very interested in the variation for hand guns (e.g. Glock 17).

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Very helpful Aaron, I appreciate your sharing your expertise on here. The dealer was telling me he got a M16 auto  for $5k and thought it was a rip off - a few years back, and now its going for $15k! So you're right on the investment idea!

Aaron Moyer wrote:

Paranoid,

I'm a fan of good quality optics (I've been failed by several of the "cheap" brands) and a flashlight on a carbine.

Beyond that, the Badger Tac-Latch is a functional improvement that can be had for about $20.
http://www.botachtactical.com/tacticallatch.html

If you use the "training" grade ammo just for plinking/practice, it'd be fine in any climate really, just make sure you know your stoppage drills.
Here they are:

Type 1 - Failure to fire: Upon pulling the trigger, you hear "click". Indicates either an empty chamber, or a round that has a bad primer.

Remedy: "Tap, Rack, Bang" Tap your magazine, rack the bolt, realign sights and fire.

Type Two - Failure to Feed, Failure to Eject: Upon pulling the trigger, the hammer falls short, and a light "click" is heard, indicating that the bolt is not fully in battery and there is an obstruction in the chamber.

Remedy: "Tap, Tug, Rack, Flip" Tap your magazine and pull it downward to make sure it's well seated. Pull your charging handle all the way to the rear, and flip your rifle sideways, with the ejection port facing the ground, effect dumping the chamber obstruction. Let the bolt return to the locked position, reaquire target and fire.

Type Three: Stove Pipe: Similar feel to a "type two"; upon inspection, the chamber has a spent cartridge in the throat, and the bolt has a second round lodged into the primer of the first.

Remedy: Remove magazine, Rack the bolt three times, allowing to return to the locked positon at full speed/force, and insert fresh magazine, and rack a fourth time. Reaquire target and fire.

I hope this helps, if there is interest, I can do either a pictorial or a video presentation on the types of malfunctions.
These are the industry standard for the AR platform. With any platform of rifle, the drills remain largely the same, though some are easier or more difficult to remedy.

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

Aaron

I vote a big loud *yes* for problem clearing vids on the ar15.   I'm also interested to know where you're finding such good prices on ammo (and on AR rifles, but I've already got one, so the ammo is more pertinent).  Don't know if it's verboten to give a commercial plug but I feel also like the internet is awash in sellers, especially for firearms stuff, that I'm not sure if I should be trusting.  I always prefer to buy local, but given that I spend 2/3 of my time a couple of hundred miles from my guns (and the local shops), it's convenient to be able to place an order online.

I appreciate all the good info here.  Wish I could participate more but I work on contract and when I'm working, well, I get very little time to browse/write.  Always checking in, though.

Thanks again.

Daniel

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Re: Sam's gun saga

Just to update folks on my attempts to buy a gun without having to divorce my wife:

After much discussion, I wore down my wife enough to agree she wouldn't divorce me if I bought a gun. So, yesterday I went to a gun store and purchased a Glock 17 and a box of metal jacketed ammunition (no hollow-point available).

I then transported it directly to my son-in-laws house where it was stashed in his gun safe. That was the point of agreement that allowed the gun purchase. The gun cannot live in my house right now.

My wife also wants to know every time I take the gun out of the safe. I told her that I will need to do that when I locate and take a gun class as well as when I go to a range to practice. In the interests of peace and harmony, I will comply with her request.

As for concealed carry - forget about it! That's still imminent divorce time. (Besides, the Glock 17 is too big for concealed carry.)

So, for now, we have a truce.

As the old saying goes, "One step at a time!"

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Re: Sam's gun saga

SamLinder wrote:

Just to update folks on my attempts to buy a gun without having to divorce my wife:

After much discussion, I wore down my wife enough to agree she wouldn't divorce me if I bought a gun. So, yesterday I went to a gun store and purchased a Glock 17 and a box of metal jacketed ammunition (no hollow-point available).

I then transported it directly to my son-in-laws house where it was stashed in his gun safe. That was the point of agreement that allowed the gun purchase. The gun cannot live in my house right now.

My wife also wants to know every time I take the gun out of the safe. I told her that I will need to do that when I locate and take a gun class as well as when I go to a range to practice. In the interests of peace and harmony, I will comply with her request.

As for concealed carry - forget about it! That's still imminent divorce time. (Besides, the Glock 17 is too big for concealed carry.)

So, for now, we have a truce.

As the old saying goes, "One step at a time!"

Seems you have a mistress named Glock. . .  Just when I was feeling sorry for myself, with all the stuff I have to do to prepare, you make me appreciate the fact that at least all the people who live, and will live (in the future) in my house, are fully on board.

Seriously, Sam, I was once in your wife's camp . . . no more . . . My husband is delighted . .  after having given up on having his way years ago, he unexpectedly won this battle without firing a shot (pun intended).  He still hasn't stopped grinning.  So, you see? . . . another silver lining to the collapse of civilization. . .

 

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Re: Sam's gun saga

c1oudfire wrote:

Seems you have a mistress named Glock. . .  Just when I was feeling sorry for myself, with all the stuff I have to do to prepare, you make me appreciate the fact that at least all the people who live, and will live (in the future) in my house, are fully on board.

Seriously, Sam, I was once in your wife's camp . . . no more . . . My husband is delighted . .  after having given up on having his way years ago, he unexpectedly won this battle without firing a shot (pun intended).  He still hasn't stopped grinning.  So, you see? . . . another silver lining to the collapse of civilization. . .

During our discussion, my wife threw out "you've decided a gun is more important than me". Sigh..... Try to get past that one!

The only other concession she has made (besides allowing the gun) is that it can live at our house if she decides it's getting sufficiently dangerous in the neighborhood. Double sigh...............

What turned you around?

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Re: Sam's gun saga

The obvious observation that we're soon to be living in a world that has neither abundance nor reliable security nor moral constraint.  For the first time in my life, I feel that self defense within the confines of my home is an absolute necessity.  Also, I'm just too darned old to learn jujitsu.  Seriously, for me it was just a simple, sensible, rational decision, based on the changing conditions around me . . . no different than buying a down parka before moving to Alaska.  Unlike many of the posters on this forum, I have no innate love of firearms . . . in fact, I used to have a strong aversion to them . . .  but like anything, there's beauty in utility, and, well, they're tools like any other. 

It's surprising, really, how easily I've let go of some of my old habits and ideas.  Another silver lining . . . I just can't afford to be rigid in a world that's changing so rapidly. 

Thanks, Sam, for sharing your saga.  Well, you've secured the goods . . . now maybe it'll just be a matter of time before the necessity is obvious to your other half. 

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Re: Sam's gun saga

SamLinder wrote:

Just to update folks on my attempts to buy a gun without having to divorce my wife:

After much discussion, I wore down my wife enough to agree she wouldn't divorce me if I bought a gun. So, yesterday I went to a gun store and purchased a Glock 17 and a box of metal jacketed ammunition (no hollow-point available).

I then transported it directly to my son-in-laws house where it was stashed in his gun safe. That was the point of agreement that allowed the gun purchase. The gun cannot live in my house right now.

My wife also wants to know every time I take the gun out of the safe. I told her that I will need to do that when I locate and take a gun class as well as when I go to a range to practice. In the interests of peace and harmony, I will comply with her request.

As for concealed carry - forget about it! That's still imminent divorce time. (Besides, the Glock 17 is too big for concealed carry.)

So, for now, we have a truce.

As the old saying goes, "One step at a time!"

Nice Sam -

Truces are good.  Now take baby steps as you walk in with a case of ammo in each hand. 

I guess I'm lucky - Mrs. Dogs goes to TN for two weeks and comes home with a rifle.  Maybe 3 weeks next time and I get a Martin D-28 guitar??

Keep us posted when you take it out and shoot with it.

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Re: Sam's gun saga

Try this one, Sam:  "I need the gun because you ARE more important to me than anything".  Trust me, Sam, I'm a woman; I know how we think.  Tell her that you'd never forgive yourself if you were unable to protect your family in their moment of need.  I'm sure that's true, and it'll put you both in the same, instead of opposite corners.  If all else fails, tell her you'd rather have her miffed at you now, than to live with the knowledge that you had failed to protect her.  Even women who don't consciously think they need protection can't help but be touched by genuine protective instincts in men.  Also, it puts the issue into the realm of fulfilling a moral responsibility, which is, I believe, where it rightly belongs.

Like it or not, one of the changes that will be going along with the return to a more primitve way of life, is that men will need to resume their traditional protective roles.  It is naive to pretend that this isn't so.  Given the future we face, I wouldn't give two cents for a man who didn't have an inborn instinct to protect his family.

Thanks for sharing your saga, Sam. . .  Good luck, and keep us posted.

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Re: Sam's gun saga

"Maybe 3 weeks next time and I get a Martin D-28 guitar??"

Veronica has one and a 1962 Strat.

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Re: Sam's gun saga

gregroberts wrote:

"Maybe 3 weeks next time and I get a Martin D-28 guitar??"

Veronica has one and a 1962 Strat.

How many bottles of Tillie's and/or scotch do want in trade for the CF Martin?

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

"SYDNEY (AP) - A woman was convicted Wednesday of fatally stabbing a neighbor who complained about her barking dog in Australia's biggest city. "

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D979N1NO0&show_article=1

I guess they'll have to confiscate all the knives in Australia next or maybe start by registering them.

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Weapons that need confiscating

gregroberts wrote:

"SYDNEY (AP) - A woman was convicted Wednesday of fatally stabbing a neighbor who complained about her barking dog in Australia's biggest city. "

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D979N1NO0&show_article=1

I guess they'll have to confiscate all the knives in Australia next or maybe start by registering them.

Since rape is an extremely common crime, perhaps we should confiscate all of those weapons, too.  Might help with the population problem, too. 

Wink

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Re: Sam's gun saga

Hi Sam,

Good luck with your Glock!

"you've decided a gun is more important than me ". Wow, I wish my wife would say "you've decided food is more important than me", LOL.

Dogs,  000-18 here.

SG

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Re: Sam's gun saga

capesurvivor wrote:

Dogs,  000-18 here.

SG

Sniff. Cry

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Re: Sam's gun saga

You'd really cry if you heard me play.

SG

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

SG -

What year?  Don't tell me it's a '37 Sunburst or I'll be on the next plane over to steal it.

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Re: The Definitive Firearms Thread

I sold an older (not prewar) D-18 to buy a Browning, and a violin to buy a Colt Government .45 ACP  years ago. The violin was an auction purchase and good deal for me; the D-18 was a real working guitar, came with songs taped to side but action was not very good so..9 MM time.

I think my 000-18 is from 1961. I'm pretty rusty, used to like the New Lost City Ramblers and old-timey music.

SG

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Tonight's the Night

Congrats Sam on the Glock and the slight thaw in your wife's attitude. 

Tonight, I'm presenting the shotgun I bought last month to the wife as a fait accompli.  I think she's ready.  It'll still freak her out a tad, but it's been sitting on the top shelf of the guest room closet for weeks and it's time to go live.  Not to mention I'm in a firearms safety course in a fortnight and at that point the gun'll be out in the open.  And I can't keep the ammo I've been buying outtasight forever (been purchasing about $60/week for awhile now)...  Might as well go for it.

Wish me luck...[wry grin].

Viva -- Sager 

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Re: Sam's gun saga

c1oudfire wrote:

Try this one, Sam:  "I need the gun because you ARE more important to me than anything".  Trust me, Sam, I'm a woman; I know how we think. 

Wait, isn't giving this level of insight of the feminine mind to male schleps like us the rough equivalent of giving high-level classified information to the Iranians?  Are the WIB's (Women In Black) going to haul you away for revealing state secrets? Laughing

- Nickbert

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