A definitive thread should have some balanced discussion and dissent.
Don't shoot me down, but I am reading that you need bigger and better guns to feel safe from all the other people who have guns, but 'they' have theirs for violent purposes.The arms race seems to be alive and popping in the US.
BTW we are farmers and own a licensed rifle .22 , haven't had a fox problem for a few years now so it is safely locked away, probably needs maintenance.
I didn't like much about our last PM but gun regulation is a wonderful thing. My child goes to school without the fear, we walk the streets and sleep in our beds without the fear that I read in these posts.
I don't see the folks who have posted to this thread so far as being the type to shoot you down (pun intended?) Collectively, folks like Aaron, Dogs, Greg, and really everyone are the more level headed ones on this board. If I didn't think that, I wouldn't be asking their advice.
You probably read in my post that I do not feel threatened, and therefore do not typically carry although I am legally licensed to do so. I find it hard to imagine a situation where I would be even be confronted, but if I was where I could not escape without needing a gun. I live in a civil place right now.
That said, I also believe that times are ready to change drastically. Maybe you disagree, or feel you will still be safe, and I hope you are right. I have tried to do the things and prepare myself so that I minimize the risk that would require the use of a weapon, however do not think there is 0% possibility I will need one, so I prepare.
I think Aaron is correct in that the training aspect is probably the most important part of gun ownership. For me, it is an insurance policy I hope never to cash in on. At the same time, my house, truck, life, etc. has insurance policies too. Truth is my first line of defense will likely be my pair of 100# dogs, but the firearm has the potential to solve problems that I cannot flee and my dogs cannot defend.
I wonder if the T square cat advocates is the right insurance policy for you...
I have a membership at Superior. I just bought a Glock 19 a couple months ago. We can go to the range anytime.
Make no mistake, guns are for violent purposes en masse, no matter who owns them or what they're shooting.
I'm not saying that an arms race is needed - we can't keep up with the Mexican drug lords... I promise.
I'm advocating proficiency and consideration.
The Attitude of "bigger better guns" doesn't even factor in. In many cases, the guns I'd suggest are smaller and more utilitarian.
Feel free to dissent if you'd like, and I titled the thread before there were any responses - so you can't hold me accountable for how difinitive it becomes beyond the basics I etched out.
I'm glad you've found it useful! I'm not entirely sure about the Canadian experience, however I do know this:
The G19 in it's "natural form" has a 4" barrel, and in canada, you must buy one with at least a 5" barrel in order for it to be legal. This is probably not that big of a deal, and I'm sure they're available.
Also, my wife was born and spent her formative years overseas as well - so she was in much the same position when we met. She realized - as most people do - that shooting is extremely gratifying as it satasfies a variety of natural inclinations that we have as humans; overcoming difficult tasks where skill is required, being able to defend yourself, meshing hand and eye coordination, to name a few.
I hope you have a similar experience, and please share what you find out for our Canadian neighbors!
(PS - I'm in WA State)
Thanks for your posts!
Here’s a twist. This author suggests investing in firearms.
He thinks the price will rise due to inflation, increased crime, and increasing gun control laws. He specifically recommends the Mosin Nagant and M1A’s. The Mosin Nagant is supposed to very accurate, reliable, and powerful and sells for $70. At that price, it seems hard to go wrong. I know Aaron says that cheap is usually not good, but does that apply here?
Thank you for your time and effort for putting together a superb article. I've been in the market for an M1A but have been having difficulty locating one at any kind of reasonable price. Springfield Armory seems to be on an indefinite backorder. I've also been looking for a couple of cheap AKs. They are likewise almost impossible to find now. In fact, I just read an article where even in Pakiston, they're going for $1,000 apiece now. Can't find the Bushmaster I want now either. I realize that most of these shortages are due to the fear of President Obama confiscating firearms. Any suggestions as to where the best places are to find these types of firearms at a non-inflated prices. Thanks for any help.
Dogs: My sister is presently a senior at VT and she was shocked to say the least by April 16th. Fortunately, she did not lose any close friends in the incident. One item that is probably under reported is that there was (for a time at least) a group of students pushing hard to allow guns on campus for the purpose of preventing the incident. Do you know any more on this? The more I reflect on this tragedy, the more I realize just how tragic it was that not a single professor (or student) had any means of defense. 30+ police officers with a huge collective arsenal were not able to intervene in any reasonable amount of time. If April 16th is not a reason for carrying concealed, then what is?
I randomly finally got into a concealed class tonight and got a certificate. I celebrated our discussion with an S&W 40 at the range.
Also, who's in northern Virginia that wants to go shooting sometime?
Last I heard the interest died out and it never got much past some thinly attended discussion groups. If I'm not mistaken, the discussions actually took place before 4/16. I imagine there would be much wider attendance now.
I had also heard that in a gruesome irony one of the discussions was chaired by the gun shop owner who sold some equipment to Seung-Hui Cho over the internet - magazines I think - but I can't confirm that.
Did you get the Smith and Wesson M&P .40? Mrs Dogs can shoot the daylights out of that weapon.
nah I just shot the 40 for the class. I've only got a Glock 19 and a Ruger 10/22 right now. Next I figure I'll go for a 12 gauge and then possibly a .308. After that, I figure I've got the bases covered reasonably well...And then I'll have a lot of training to do.
Any recommendations on an economical and reliable pump 12 gauge? A friend recommended a Remington 870, but I've also got recommendations for a Mossberg 500...
Also, a question on shotguns: On shotguns in general, and the ones mentioned above specifically: I take it the best choke for self defense is probably cylinder? Is it easy to swap the chokes out? Are they expensive? If I had only one choke to use for hunting, which would be the best? Can most shotguns handle 2 3/4" and 3" shells?
I like the 870 but the Mossberg is a nice shotgun. I have a semi-automatic Remington 1100 with an integral modified full choke in a 38" goose barrel - very nice pattern containment for hunting and it's long. I have killed ducks and geese at 75 yards (and for the PETA folks out there I have eaten everything I shot except for the first duck I took - my Dad had it mounted). Changing the choke isn't hard. I haven't priced a choke in years but I can't imagine they are too expensive.
Be careful with shell sizes - my 1100 has a 3" chamber and can shoot 3" or 2 3/4" shells - but a 2 3/4" chambered gun can only shoot 2 3/4" shells. I'd go with the 3" because you can shoot either.
One other thing to consider is what you are hunting. My 1100 is well suited for sitting in a tree stand hunting deer or turkey or in a waterfront or pit blind hunting ducks and geese. I have used it hunting upland game (quail, dove, pheasant, grouse, etc.) and after lugging it around for a few hours you can get tired. If you are going after the smaller birds - consider getting a considerably lighter and more wieldy 20 or 16 gauge. I prefer semis over pumps but have and use both.
Or you could get a 10 gauge and go sky busting.............
For a "cheap" and "reliable" shotgun - you just can't beat the Remington 870.
I"ve owned 2 Mossbergs, broke a Winchester 1200 and have found the "best" shotgun is a 18" 870 with Rifle Sights.
A shotgun isn't a combat weapon, so it doesn't need all the gimmicky crap - nothing but a flashlight will actually help you shoot it with greater proficiency.
The Mosin is a fine rifle. It's not the most accurate when compared to some other rifles of its vintage, but it'll still outshoot most shooters. Keep in mind it doesn't have a flash suppressor (like most of its era) and will absolutely blind you if you're firing in low light. As for the M1A...
They are extremely "Hit or miss" with regards to quality. They're made to only shoot military ammunition, and most guys never bother reading it, but the instruction manual (last I saw) said that firing anything other than NATO 7.62mm would void the warranty. That's obviously not good in a "survival" situation, where you may have to barter or scavenge.
I would personally go for an M4 Carbine and never look back. If you're looking for a "hunting friendly" fighting rifle, the FN FAL is bar none the most "usable" out there - but the quality has really dropped since CAI started importing them and the DSArms are very expensive.
Stay dilligent - I've seen Bushmasters trickling back into the shops as of late - I think you'll see them become "available" again within this first quarter of FY09. THere are several releases planned for other platforms that have a lot of "shooters" excited, and like any other consumer, they drool over the "latest greatest". The Masada/ACR and FN Scar are planning civilian legal rifles here very soon, both of which look to be improvements, but not substantial enough for me.
Interesting, I never realized that the Glock 19 was so popular! It was my second gun purchase, and while I've always been very satisfied with it I've never personally known anyone else who also had one. I ended up getting it initially because I liked the feel of it and the 9mm ammunition is cheap (I was on a tight budget back then), but over time I've also come to appreciate how it handles and the compact size. I never bought it for purposes of concealed carry, but as I'm seriously considering becoming a permit holder I admit it's nice that it's so well suited for that purpose...
Personally, most of the firearms I own have been chosen in part because the ammunition they use is cheap and widely available. 9mm, 5.56/.223, and .22 for the most part, and even though I have more discretionary income in recent years I still make ammunition a key consideration for any future purchase. I've owned guns primarily for fun and plinking with my friends in the summer, and cost of ammunition was usually important. Self defense was a consideration but was usually secondary in my mind (at least until recently). And if you are interested in a gun for self defense, cost may not be as much of an issue but it still makes some sense to have an inexpensive (yet still effective) round so you can practice as much as possible without denting your wallet. And inexpensive doesn't always mean ineffective, as Aaron has already covered in the first post regarding 9mm. And lastly, I'm sure someone else here has probably said it before but it isn't wise to own a gun for protection unless you've had plenty of practice with it.
Pretty much the only gun I've considered getting that uses relatively expensive ammunition was a .44, and that would only be for hiking/camping trips in areas where brown bears (or any bears for that matter) are known to roam. Since moving to Colorado it's not been as much of an issue, but I'd still like to get one at some point :^)
Hit me with an e mail when you get the chance.
Does the Mosin use readily available ammo? At $70 it seems like a bargain if the ammo is available and cheap. Thanks
The Mosin uses The Old 7.62x54 Russian cartridge - which is very inexpensive and common.
There are things to keep in mind, however. The ammunition hasn't been produced for anything except Dragunovs (Russian Sniper Rifles) and PKM Machineguns in quite a while. Much of the surplus on the market is very old, and therefore corrosive.
The "heavy" 180gr stuff is sketchy with regards to accuracy. Some range reports from guys I know with the PSL's (Romanian Dragunovs: http://www.snipercountrypx.com/showproduct.aspx?productid=1774) has been fairly poor, and the rounds that the Russians use, they do not export. The light ball rounds (147gr according to this link) however has been satasfactory. http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/7_62x54R.html
$150/800 rounds - which is absolutely stellar in todays market.
Mosins also make a great hunting rifle, and they're extremely robust - these rifles you're seeing now killed German troops on the Russian Front more likely than not. Chances are, they'll still outlive us.
I glanced through the thread and as far as I could tell I saw no mention of the combination of rifle pistol etc
Some time ago I standardized to .357 magnum to ensure that most of the bulk ammo I keep would work in a hand gun and a rifle. So I have one of each (along with other weapons in varying calibers).
I also recommend having a 12guage shotgun you can buy one that takes 3" shells but you really don’t need more than 2.75 make sure you keep a mix of rounds in both 357 and 12, i.e. in 357 you want JHP for home defense but not for hunting. Same with the shotgun, some bid shot will do for home defense but you want 00buck and perhaps single slug for hunting.I hate myself for this but I turned down the chance to buy an AK47 for $250 in 2007 the price of these has risen significantly and will likely continue to do so. Ammo has gone up at least 30% in the last year. This trend is likely to continue for some time.Oh don’t forget to buy toilet paper too
Good timing, no jobs to be had, more crime.
Releasing prisoers doesn't exactly thrill me, but the US has the highest prison population on earth, which strikes me as cause for concern, one way or another. People should be held accountable for their crimes, but I'd like to think there are other ways than imprisonment for such a great number of relatively non-threatening crimes. I think the imprisonment should tend to be reserved for those that are a threat to society or a last resort rather than simply those that ticked off the IRS. Perhaps it's idealistic, but I'd like to think we could try to punish some of these criminals in other ways. The reality is that We The Taxpayers get shafted when people get imprisoned in massive quantities (prison a wonderful form of social welfare and might be the one sector of our economy that is actually less productive than the government...). Ideally, having the prisoners produce things would be the rule, and not the exception. Instilling a work ethic can be a very healthy thing, in my opinion. Perhaps we could deploy some of our prisoners to work on select infrastructure or labor intensive jobs as we try to accomplish this great economic stimulation...
I don't know of perfect solutions, but I do know this trend will continue. It is going to get increasingly difficult to maintain 1-2% of our adult population in prison as the economy tanks. Typical prison situations remove potentially productive members from our society and also consume resources in the forms of land, buildings, guards, etc. Again, I do not support amnesty, but we are going to have to do something to deal with this problem head on.
Comments are welcome.
OK, how 'bout this?
Put them to work. Think 1930s chain-gangs. Prison farms. License plates.
In short, no more coddling criminals, turning our prisons into Crime U., complete with TV in the dorms and top notch athletic facilities...
Yeah, getting social welfare for crime angers me. Chain gangs should be the norm, especially if we are going to be on an infrastructure rebuild project. Of course, if our focus is to "recapitalize the banks" and re-instate the consumption "industry" in America, it is going to be a little harder to get criminals in as burger microwavers in McDonalds.
I think rehabilitation comes from work ethic, pride in work, etc. Some will remain truly incorrigible, but I'd like to think that at least some prisoners would be helped by having a legitimate occupation for their time. Lifting weights and watching tv doesn't seem to be cutting it for whatever the reason. The results are horrendous. I'd like to see statistics on how many people make repeat visits to prison.
Checked this at Snopes
There is intelligent life on this planet ,
SHERIFF JOE IS AT IT AGAIN!�
> > �
> > Oh, there's MUCH more to know about Sheriff
> > Maricopa� County�was spending approx. $18 million
> dollars a year on stray animals, like cats and dogs. Sheriff
> Joe offered to take the department over, and the County
> Supervisors said okay.�
> > The animal shelters are now all staffed and operated
> by prisoners. They feed and care for the strays. Every
> animal in his care is taken out and walked twice daily. He
> now has prisoners who are experts in animal nutrition and
> behavior. They give great classes for anyone who'd like
> to adopt an animal. He has literally taken stray dogs off
> the street, given them to the care of prisoners, and had
> them place in dog shows.�
> > The best part? His budget for the entire department is
> now under $3 million. Teresa and I adopted a Weimaraner from
> a Maricopa County shelter two years ago. He was neutered,
> and current on all shots, in great health, and even had a
> microchip inserted the day we got him. Cost us $78.�
> > The prisoners get the benefit of about $0.28 an hour
> for working, but most would work for free, just to be out of
> their cells for the day. Most of his budget is for
> utilities, building maintenance, etc. He pays the prisoners
> out of the fees collected for adopted animals.�
> > I have long wondered when the rest of the country
> would take a look at the way he runs the jail system, and
> copy some of his ideas. He has a huge farm, donated to the
> county years ago, where inmates can work, and they grow most
> of their own fresh vegetables and food, doing all the work
> and harvesting by hand.�
> > He has a pretty good sized hog farm, which provides
> meat, and fertilizer. It fertilizes the Christmas tree
> nursery, where prisoners work, and you can buy a living
> Christmas tree for $6 - $8 for the Holidays, and plant it
> later. We have six trees in our yard from the Prison.�
> > Yup, he was reelected last year with 83% of the
> > Now he's in trouble with the ACLU again. He
> painted all his buses and vehicles with a mural, that has a
> special hotline phone number painted on it, where you can
> call and report suspected illegal aliens. Immigrations and
> Customs Enforcement wasn't doing enough in his eyes, so
> he had 40 deputies trained specifically for enforcing
> immigration laws, started up his hotline, and bought 4 new
> buses just for hauling folks back to the border He's
> kind of a 'Git-R Dun' kind of Sheriff.�
> > TO THOSE OF YOU NOT FAMILIAR WITH JOE ARPAIO�
> > HE IS THE MARICOPA ARIZONA COUNTY SHERIFF�
> > AND HE KEEPS GETTING ELECTED OVER AND OVER�
> > THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY:�
> > Sheriff Joe Arpaio (In Arizona ) who created the '
> Tent City Jail':�
> > He has jail meals down to 40 cents a serving and
> charges the inmates for them.�
> > He stopped smoking and porno magazines in the jails.
> Took away their weights Cut off all but 'G'
> > He started chain gangs so the inmates could do free
> work on county and city projects.�
> > Then He Started Chain Gangs For Women So He
> Wouldn't Get�
> > Sued For Discrimination.�
> > He took away cable TV Until he found out there was A
> Federal Court Order that Required Cable TV For Jails So He
> Hooked Up The Cable TV Again Only Let In The Disney Channel
> And The Weather Channel.�
> > When asked why the weather channel He Replied, So They
> Will Know How Hot It's Gonna Be While They Are
> > ON My Chain Gangs.�
> > He Cut Off Coffee Since It Has Zero Nutritional
> > When the inmates complained, he told them, 'This
> Isn't The Ritz/Carlton......If You Don't Like It,
> Don't Come Back.'�
> > More On The Arizona Sheriff:�
> > With Temperatures Being Even Hotter Than Usual In
> Phoenix (116 Degrees Just Set A New Record), the Associated
> Press Reports:�
> > About 2,000 Inmates Living In A Barbed-Wire-Surrounded
> Tent Encampment At The Maricopa County Jail Have Been Given
> Permission To Strip Down To Their Government-Issued�
> > Pink Boxer Shorts.�
> > On Wednesday, hundreds of men wearing boxers were
> either curled up on their bunk beds or chatted in the tents,
> which reached�
> > 138 Degrees Inside The Week Before.�
> > Many Were Also Swathed In Wet, Pink Towels As Sweat
> Collected On Their Chests And Dripped Down To Their PINK
> > 'It Feels Like We Are In A Furnace,' Said
> James Zanzot, An Inmate Who Has Lived In The TENTS for 1
> year. 'It's Inhumane.'�
> > Joe Arpaio, the tough-guy sheriff who created the tent
> city and long ago started making his prisoners wear pink,
> and eat bologna sandwiches, is not one bit sympathetic. He
> said Wednesday that he told all of the inmates:
> 'It's 120 Degrees In Iraq And Our Soldiers Are
> Living In Tents Too, And They Have To Wear Full Battle
> > But They Didn't Commit Any Crimes,So Shut Your
> > Way To Go, Sheriff!�
> > Maybe if all prisons were like this one there would be
> a lot less crime and/or repeat offenders. Criminals should
> be punished for their crimes - not live in luxury until
> it's time for their parole, only to go out and commit
> another crime so they can get back in to live on taxpayers
> money and enjoy things taxpayers can't afford to have
> for themselves.�
That would be contrary to solidifying the nanny state "We the People" seem to be bent on achieving.
Great post, Greg. When you've got a prison system that is a huge consumer of resources, there's really only one way to go. It's a good feeling for me and perhaps a better feeling for prisoners to see them contribute in one way or another. I would like to think that any skills or work ethic they acquire would tend to improve the odds that they will become contributing members of society once they are released. If not, then they can go back to prison where they will (hopefully) be compelled to contribute in some way.
I am in the market for my first gun, and I was wondering what you recommend. I was thinking about buying a benelli 12 gauge semi automatic shotgun. What do you think? Also what rifle do you recommend, and do you think everyone should have a hand gun?
excellent choice on the benelli, quality product. great for hunting or protection. If one is purchasing a rifle for home defense an AR-15 in .223 cal with at least 5 hi-cap mags is a good combo. The AR platform is avail in heavier calibers(.308) for hunting but the .223 will take a deer with proper shot placement. Also everyone should have a hand gun. A small 5-shot revolver is ideal for concealed carry and self defense, easy to conceal and simple to operate. Smith and Wesson makes the best ones. For auto pistols, the glock is probably the best overall for new shooters- a dependable low maintainance weapon for a reasonable price, and again easy to operate.
For a first time gun owner- practice as much as you can afford to. Perhaps take a class to familarize yourself with your chosen weapons and practice some more. Join the NRA and your local range. Obama's plan (on whitehouse.gov) is to restrict all citizens gun rights, and make it more difficult for all Americans to protect themselves.
My $.02 - take a look at the Sig Sauer line. A bit more expensive than S&W and Glock, but a superbly crafted gun. They are double action and the trigger pull on subsequent shots is considerable less than a revolver. For what it's worth, the Sig 226 Navy is what US Navy SEAL teams carry during shipboard takedown. Rugged and very resistant to sea water and salt accumulation. It's hard to muck up the action.
Glocks have a contained hammer so are real good in a dirt and dust environment, and as larry said, low maintenance and a good handgun to cut your teeth on.
Kimber, Heckler and Koch and Springfield Armory all make very nice handguns so what it comes down to is personal preference.
As far as a rifle, I second the AR-15 larry talks about. I have a Bushmaster M4 and it is all the long gun I need (although I wouldn't say no to a Barrett M95 .50 sniper rifle - just in case I have to make a 3000 yard shot). Also have Remington 870 and 1100 shotguns.
Welcome to the CM site.
DIAP you better get that Barrett, 'cause it's at the top of the new leader's ban list....
Over the years I have found that a small revolver makes the ideal carry gun for summer and winter. I prefer a 1911 but it will tear up your jackets, body, shirts and is not very comfortable at all, and hard to conceal in summer. My thinking is that five shots is better than a pocketknife although I usually have one for back up too. (Cold steel makes great knives for a decent price.) Some of the new MP models by S&W are very light and pack a punch- my carry gun is a snubby .357 and it is comfortable...and can reach out and touch if necessary..
Anything HK is well made and reliable, but the bottom line is practice as much as possible with whatever you choose or can afford. IDPA or USPSA matches are a lot of fun and provide a medium for testing your skills and improving in all aspects of shooting- on the move, multiple targets, moving targets etc. Also allows one to connect with other shooters and get inside info- who's selling what etc... If someone is interested look up IDPA( more practical) or USPSA(more shooting) on the web and they have a locator to find local clubs that hold the matches.
Aaron- great topic- I have not been here lately and I am glad to see this started with excellent information.
larry - good to see you here.
I always carry a pocket knife too. A SOG, flash assisted open, tanto, with 1/3 serrated edge and a Microtech LE switchblade (70 pound spring open and 6 pound retract). I am an apprentice instructor in Pekiti Tersia and Eskrima Kali - Filipino Martial Arts that lean heavily on the knife and empty hand.
My problem with concealed carry is my hand size. I can't get my pinkie on the grip of a sub and can barely get it on a compact. Very uncomfortable grip and tenuous shooting as a result.
The Barrett is up to $8500 - $8999 in local shops. Mrs. Dogs said no.
Jarhett - I'm a recent new owner. I defer to the other posters on this thread for their expertise, but I can tell you my experience.
I got a Glock 19 (9mm compact) and have been nothing but happy with it. It is simple, easy to use, and rugged. It is also easy to clean. The size of the gun is perfect for me. The ammunition is economically priced relative to other calibers.
I've also got a Ruger 10/22. Nothing too fancy, but it has worked flawlessly for me.
Next, I'm looking at a 12 gauge, maybe a 1911 (0.45) and maybe a .308 - depending on where this all leaves me financially...
I fully agree with the other posters on a few items: Training is probably more important than the type of gun. Do it, do it often, do it with an instructor once in a while. Whatever gun you get, make sure you can shoot it a lot. Also, guns only go so far - martial arts, knives, dogs, perimeter lighting are all other considerations for personal security that you must evaluate.
One million rounds a minute, The projectiles are stacked in-line in the barrel--nose to tail--so
there are no magazines, no shell casings, and no mechanical components.Thought this would interest you.
You said, itemized for ease of answering:
Question 1 - First Gun:
Personally, I'd recommend a Glock 19 in 9mm.
At present, people do not carry long arms, and most crimes occur at random, and in predictable locations. Get your concealed weapons permit, attend a training class or two, and carry a pistol. The Glock 19 is my choice for a number of reasons:
1. Caliber - 9mm is cheap (comparitively) and effective. This allows me to train more often.
2. Reliability - Glocks are - bar none - the most reliable pistols on the market today.
3. Capacity - 15 rounds magazines fall in line with my mantra "Better to be looking at it than looking for it". Especially when rounds are incoming, should that sad day occur.
4. Commonality - Glocks are very common, and replacement parts, magazines, lights and holsters are readily available.
Question 2 - Benelli/Shotguns:Shotguns in general are the subject of a lot of mythology. Go into any gunstore and you'll hear bubbas talk about how "you don't even have to aim" or "It'll knock 'em back 12 feet".
Truth is, unfortunate laws of physics and motion stand in the way of these things being true.
To look into this further, I think it's necessary to understand the flawed concept of "Knockdown Power", sometimes refered to as stopping power.
Newtons 3rd law of motion states in common speech that "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction."
If you've ever fired a gun before, you know it didn't knock you on your butt. In order for such an impact to occur on a target, downrage, after the projectiles have suffered velocity loss - the shooter would have to have felt recoil strong enough to know *him* down.
This alone debunks the idea that any bullet is going to send anyone flying. Even .50 caliber BMGs.
That said, what does account for stopping power?
Simply put... Accuracy. Which means skill.
Shotguns are further limited by several factors:
1. Shot Pattern
2. Lack of Range
3. Bulk of Ammo
1. The shot pattern can be a benefit... but only if there are no friendlies downrange. In the confusion of a gunfight, that's highly unlikely.
2. Shotshells also only reliably take down ducks at 50m or so. I personally wouldn't hedge my bets that it'd stop an angry biker on PCP.
3. Lastly, 1 box of 25 shotshells takes up roughly the same space as 3, loaded 30 round 5.56 magazines, or 3 loaded 20 round .308 magazines.
So that's 90 or 60 rounds respectively that have maximum range in the hundreds of yards, rather than tens of yards. In addition, we can add another equation to our "Stopping power" discussion: "Force = Mass x Acceleration".
The velocity plays as much a part as mass, so long as proportion is maintained. A 5.56mm round travels at about 3200 feet per second from the muzzle. The muzzle velocity of the fastest, hottest buckshot out there is 1600 feet per second.
Keep in mind that Hydrostatic shock damage occurs on biological organisms at or above speeds of 2200 feet per second.
With shotguns, you're relying on what the Geneva Convention refers to as "creating a jagged wound".
Lastly, if you *do* choose to buy a shotgun for home defense, get a pump. In a prolongued SHTF situation, you may be relying on some "home spun" shotshells jimmied together by a crazy neighbor. If your Benelli won't cycle them, you've got an expensive single shot that you haven't trained for.
Question 3 - which Rifle?Rifles break into several catagories in my mind; manual, carbine and battle.
Manual would be like a bolt, or lever, while a carbine is a smaller caliber semi-automatic that takes magazines.
The battle rifle is the "large" caliber semi-auto that generally runs off 20 round magazines.
-My personal take is that the "Carbine" types (AK's, M4's) are the best "all around" fit between utility, capacity, accuracy (Yes, the AK is accurate. Don't listen to the gunstore cowboys, they're just crappy shots) and ergonomics. It may not seem important now, but the speed with which you can clear stoppages, reload your weapon and perform maintenance on it is extremely important. Typically, carbines fill roles from CQB (Close Quarters Battle) to Squad Designated Marksmen - who use M4's with ACOGs often.
-Bolts are limited in their capacity, and again - it's better to be looking at it than looking for it. However, by in large, they're extremely robust, and require little or no extra parts. IF you get a bolt GET IRON SIGHTS. Dot not rely solely on a scope!
-Battle Rifles are heavy, and outdated for the style of gunfights we see today - but they're still worth a look if you're at a homestead with a lot of open country around you. Typically chambered in .308, they're slower to reload, and lack some of the modern design improvements, but are used for a "distance" envelope.
The AR is "America's" rifle, and it's used with great effect around the globe. Ideally, I think this is the most useful overall carbine available today, though the AK is an acceptable choice as well.
Both are utterly reliable, durable, parts, ammunition and magazines are available and common.
There are a lot of questions that surround "selecting a good rifle", but caliber should not be one of them.
Think of your needs, potential situations you might find yourself in, and how would you find parts and magazines if you needed them.
When selecting a carbine, make sure the barrel is chrome lined!It will reduce accuracy slightly, but it will prevent rust from forming and pitting the lands and grooves in the barrel. If that happens, your rifles accuracy will go to hell, and you'll have to replace the barrel.
Question 4 - Everyone owning a pistol?Yes - It's my belief that anyone who hasn't been convicted of a felony involving a violent crime, drug or gang related crime should be able to own and carry a handgun without interference. In fact, I see it as an obligation that grown men have to their fellow citizens to intervene if someone tries to inflict deaths on our people.
The pistol is the most reliable method of "self defense" because it's easy to carry.
Unless things get so bad that we're all carrying rifles again, I think it's prudent for people to own, train with, and carry handguns.
-Carry your gun! Having it on your nightstand in a lockbox isn't going to do you any good when the next "Cho" shows up to do violence.
-Avoid Accessories - put money into magazines and ammo. A good light and good quality optics on a carbine are about the only worthwhile investments.
I'm not sure putting prisoners to work is a great idea... where will all that stimulous money go?
Cheers brothers (and sisters), and thanks for making this thread great!
Marty me with each breath
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