Chris Martenson's Past

Ruhh,

I think it's really impressive that you've taken the time to "stick up" for Chris and the facts. But honestly, I agree with nickbert. This Joshua guy sounds like a complete moron. Probably one of those "Corporations suck, man!" types who is incapable of differentiating between some legitimately sleazy actions of some corporations and the ridiculous notion that all corporations are inherently evil.

I think you and Laura have already made your point well enough that anyone with a rational brain will be able to come to the right conclusion. If this guy insists on making an ass of himself, that's his problem. There's so much for society to gain by spreading the word about the Crash Course far and wide. Guys like Joshua just aren't worth anyone's time or energy and IMHO are best ignored.

Erik

Ditto what nickbert and Erik said.

It seems to me like Joshua is seriously narrowing down the pool of people available to fight for change in the system if he isn't willing to accept people who were previously a part of that system (or still are, as many of us are who still need to make a living). 

Quite frankly, I don't have a problem with questioning and examining people's motives.  But I just don't see where Chris is benefitting financially from his work on the Crash Course (CC) (to the degree he was benefiting financially as a Fortune 500 VP).  And I certainly do not see where "the system" is benefiting from Chris's work on the CC, where Chris is educating people about the true nature of, and flaws in, that system!  I.e., so where's the motivation or pay-off?  It's as nickbert says, "guilt by association" is an extremely broad, non-discriminating and (IMHO) inaccurate measure of an individual in and of itself.  It is a "cheap shot" intellectually if not substantiated by more than the accusation and insinuation itself.

I would also ask Joshua what his background is (not really; not worth the time/effort)?  I think that a "guilt by association" argument could be made about just about anyone, given as broad a brush as he is using.

Finally, and I'm not trying to get religious here, but "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".  Does Joshua really feel so morally pure, given every action he has ever taken in his past, and every relationship he has participated in with other people and organizations, that he has the right to judge others so harshly, without providing a sound basis for those accusations? 

But again, I agree with Nickbert and Eric; you've done enough to expose the flaws in his argument.  Past that, it isn't worth your time/effort to engage with someone who is not going to participate in a rationale debate.

-pinecarr

I responded to his seathing remark about my being a "cheerleader" for the movie.

Ruhh,

I truly appreciate your efforts here to explain and defend.  While I have zero interest or energy in trying to explain anything to 'Joshua', there's a larger lesson wrapped up in that dialog that concerns how I engage with people who present themselves in this manner.

Given what little I can read in Joshua's statements, I personally would not spend any time at all trying to convince them of anything as they are very clearly stating, in no uncertain terms, that they are not interested in open inquiry.  Perhaps they are not yet ready to hear the material, or may never be, and that's okay.  They are just defending themselves from having to confront challenging material that would be painful to ingest.

Or perhaps they have backed themselves into an intellecutal corner of helplessness where the world is entirely composed of evil actors with sinister associations and too much power.  Having run into more than a few of these folks over the years, I have come to the conclusion that their objections have less to do with ascertaining the truth than defending their own inability to get out and work for positive change.  The helplessness that accompanies the conspiracy-under-every-rock mindset (for some people, not all) is perversely comforting to them; it absolves them of the need to engage, show up, and be accountable to the world.  My clues for detecting these folks are seemingly perpetual anger but few (if any) concrete actions taken against the alleged targets of their anger.

Or it could be any number of other things that has sunk their worldview down a narrow shaft of thought.  For what its worth, the way I read the above comments, I think its a waste of time to try and shift Joshua's views by countering the individual objections ("he can't be trusted....was a war profiteer..."  etc) because the objections are just providing cover for a deeper set of beliefs.  My psych 101 reading of the above is that the root cause is a learned comfort in feeling powerless.  The relatively simplistic framework of "victim vs. victimizer" creates anger stemming from a perceived lack of power but also absolution from having to do anything.  After all, if "they" have all the power, and you have none, nothing can be done, so why bother? 

Of course, I could be way off base, but that's how it came across when I read it.

In the silver lining department, let me also take this opportunity to expand on my own personal story.  When I quit my job as VP of SAIC in July of 2005 to dedicate myself full time to developing the story that became the Crash Course, I had been working in a newly formed life sciences division on the commcercial side of the company (not government contracting and not defense...it's a 40,000 person company with hundreds of divisions), I was 42 years old and was earning over $250k per year.  I then spent four years blogging, giving free seminars and creating the Crash Course without ever earning a single dime from the endeavor.  We lived off of savings during those years - luckily we're savers, so we could.

Looked at this way, you could say I sank a million dollars into creating the Crash Course -  a product I felt was too important to sell, so I gave it away for free.  There's a very good chance I'll never see a return on that investment. 

I'm not asking for any sympathy here because I was actually extremely fortunate to have sufficient savings to be able to follow my passion, a wife and family that supported an indefensible career move,  and I got to pursue a path that is full of meaning for me.  Not everybody gets to do that, so I am grateful and I do not ever fret over the investment.

It's just so patently obvious that I did not "do this" for money that I think its instructive when people accuse me of being in this for the money, somehow.  At the very least they reveal themselves to have low powers of observation and possibly reveal their membership in the Psyche 101 club I outlined above.

More importantly I have lived my life as an open book and there is plenty of confirmatory evidence that I am exactly what I present myself to be that is freely available via Google to anyone who is interested.  Everything I've ever said about my background is true and easily verified.  I don't have any secret mansions or jets hidden away that will someday trip up my image.  I am what I am:  A concerned father and citizen of the world who's trying to create a world worth inheriting.  Life is short so let's spend it in association with people who are fun, dynamic, creative, and accountable.  Tearing down is easy, building is hard.  The former is a miserable pursuit, the latter is satisfying.

So thanks for the back-up and the opportunity to round out my story a little more, I appreciate both. 

So let's focus on the positive aspects of this unusual thread.

It sounds to me like Laura j. had seen the Crash Course, but had not yet found her way here to the forums. This nonsense provoked by Joshua was the catalyst that brought her here. If statistical norms mean anything, then there are at least one or two "lurkers" who also followed Laura here but who have yet to post a message to introduce themselves.

So, Laura, Welcome! I really hope you'll stick around and participate in these forums. There is a core community of people here who "know" one another through this amazing website, and there is also a huge community of newcomers who have recently joined us. You sound like a very smart, positive energy lady. I think you'll find that this site will offer you the opportunity to share ideas with other like-minded people.

And to you lurkers out there, please feel welcome too. Introduce yourself if you like, or run silent if that's your M.O. This is site is probably the best learning asset on the 'net, and the Crash Course is just the beginning.

Last but not least, Joshua, if by chance you're reading this, I hope we'll sway you over to our way of thinking. Many of us here have an immense respect for Chris and what he's accomplished, and for that reason folks like my good friend Davos are labeling you as a "F_______ Moron". But if you should see the light and want to participate on the constructive side of this discussion, we'll welcome you with open arms. This material causes people to react in different ways, and if your inclination to brand Chris as a bad guy is just a temporary phase you're going through or something you need to do in order to sort out your own issues, I for one promise not to hold that against you if and when you decide to come join the community here that is focused on the positive aspects of learning and preparation.

Erik

Laura, I'm so glad you've found us and joined the community.

You know, this got me to thinking... This site really needs a Welcoming Roadmap. Because Chris is very low-key and not much of an opportunist, there is no hard-sell for enrolled membership. I think it's really great that "the management" doesn't push anything on anyone. But the downside is that I am convinced that many people here don't even realize that the really good content is found in the Martenson Reports and Martenson Insider blog that are available to enrolled (paid) members.

For Chris to push it harder would just detract from the awesome vibe of the site. But a group of long-time site regulars could easily collaborate on a "welcome kit" for newcomers that shows them the ropes, so to speak. For example, I bet there are plenty of [newer] paid subscribers who don't even know that The Four Horsemen  was a seminal Martenson Report that has timeless value and that everyone should read.

I have this vision in my head. It's an e-mail that starts with "Dear newcomer, this is not from Chris Martenson or even from his staff. This is a site that is so special and which has such a strong sense of community that even the paying customers take pride in the place and want to welcome newcomers to finding everything the site has to offer. So a group of long-time subscribers got together and wrote up a road map to help you get the most from this site. It all starts with the Crash Course, but that's only the very beginning. From there your path will depend on your own interests, but we'd like to help put you on the right path, so here are some suggestions on where to start..."

I don't even have a firm idea on where it goes from there, but I think there's a lot of opportunity. Those of us who have been regulars here for a year or more know that the Crash Course is just the introduction that gives you the background to start to learn. But I think a lot of people think it's all there is. I think a roadmap that gives people a path through the timeless works such as The Four Horsemen would be a really good learning asset. But more importantly, I think that a warm welcome to newcomers that's truly from the community here as opposed to from Chris himself would really be cool. Anybody want to collaborate on this? Some of the "best stuff" I'm thinking of to include in the roadmap comes from the paid enrolled member side of the site, but I bet we could persuade Chris to let us include it in a newbie's welcome kit if we asked nicely... :-)

Erik

Hi Laura!

Welcome!

Chris I read your bio on Wiki. It is awfully benign. Its not spicy enough. No intrigue, no sex. C'mon. Charge it up a bit. Get arrested or something.

"You did then what you knew how to do and when you knew better, you did better"

Maya Angelou

Now if more humans would simply act on what they know is "better" (like CM does) then we'd no doubt have a better world now wouldn't we ?

Erik,

I like your idea, and would be happy to participate. I'm not terribly active in the forums these days, lurking more than writing, but still think your approach would be useful.

Laura,

Another warm welcome!

Chris,

I'd have less suspicion about your background if you would stop flying your black helicopters over my house!

What Chris said in the recent TwoBeers with Steve podcast about not trying to convince people who aren't ready to shift mentally and focusing instead on helping people who already are open to a shift to move further in that direction has really stuck with me. And I'm sorry to see two threads on the board today (EmperorNero's and this one) where he's had to spend time explaining himself in regards to people not even remotely close to making that shift. I'm sure Chris' clarification is helpful to those of us listening with open minds, but I find myself wanting him to go out and plant garden beds (or do something enjoyable and self-sufficency oriented) instead!

I could contribute some work on a "welcome and orientation" video that we could then post to youtube and cite hear in the forums. We could use screen capture video to show how to navigate around the site and point to some of the more useful threads. Youtube used to allow clickable links directly in the video, and I'm pretty sure it still does in some form or another.

But I wouldn't be comfortable narrating the video myself, so someone else would need to step up to the plate for that.

Also, we would need a site administrator to enable the video to be displayed here in a high enough resolution (720p) to be useful for screen captures and links.

We could begin the video with Dr.M's own version of his bio as well.

What other type of content would be useful for orientation?

I can do most of the grunt work, but I need a narrator and content ideas to work with.

Jeff,

I love the video idea, and would be happy to narrate if that's helpful. I was originally thinking of a written welcome guide, but hey, why not do both?

This has clearly drifted off the original thread's topic, so I created a new thread for Project Welcome Mat. Let's continue the discussion about how to organize a welcome message and what it should say there.

Laura and Ruhh, I hope you'll let Joshua know that his baseless attack on Dr. Martenson's character actually had the result of motivating some of his loyal readers to help grow his community!

Erik

Sounds a lot like surgeons and surgical assistants. Some get it, some don't. Those that don't, rarely ever will.

Also, welcome to the forums!

The troll isn't a moron, he is a F _ _ _ _ _ _ moron.

Now Davos, didn't your mother ever tell you not to call people Fathead?