Alternatives to a Gun Arsenal in Post Peak America

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A. M.'s picture
A. M.
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Re: Alternatives to a Gun Arsenal in Post Peak America

Rosemary,

Quote:
Who with any common sense at all whose thinking differs even slightly from the gun sheeple would dare post in a thread like this?   I sure won't anymore, and it was my thread!

That's too bad. Because I'd say you got some good suggestions out of it.

No need to get sharp about it.
In fact, until someone comes out swinging, making wild accusations and bizzare, unintelligble rhetoric, (like Straight) every comment on here has had something interesting to say, and a good majority of it was fleshing out a good foundation on which to build a conversation.

Might want to just take the reigns, understand there is only so far it ca ngo, and not get too down on those guys who were trying to help you.

Aaron

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Re: Alternatives to a Gun Arsenal in Post Peak America

Hey, I am a practical guy, and I am following this thread to see if there is a better idea.  Anyone? 

I consider myself a "common sense" thinker, not a "macho line in the sand guy", but it seems like you are asking for something that doesn't exist yet in the available, affordable, and useable, public realm.

As I said before, I think the next best thing to owning a gun is having the BP think you own a gun.  Heck I dont carry my gun on me, in fact its locked away in a safe...

Lets take the natural world, there are snakes that look like they are poisonous, but are not, their coloring is close to that of common poisonous snakes.

Camouflage?  Ok, then I suggest a NRA sticker and some redneck gun-toting t-shirts will tell anyone considering you as an easy target to probably seek harm on someone else instead.

Sorry about the cryptic song lyrics, thats in the blood... "goin where the winds dont blow so strange...."

 

A. M.'s picture
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Re: Alternatives to a Gun Arsenal in Post Peak America

Plantguy,

Quote:

Hey, I am a practical guy, and I am following this thread to see if there is a better idea.  Anyone? 

I consider myself a "common sense" thinker, not a "macho line in the sand guy", but it seems like you are asking for something that doesn't exist yet in the available, affordable, and useable, public realm.

+1. I don't think anyone has come across as a "macho" type who's looking to push people around.
If anything, the only people who've gotten bent out of sorts are the ones who are violently opposed to gun ownership.

We've talked over several such solutions - but there is a big difference between a "tactical" plan (use of any sort of force as an individual or small group) and a strategic plan - widescale defense.

Light creates a "wall" in the darkness - so it's a great "strategic" plan if you can keep the lights powered.
Other "non-lethal" ideas, like dogs are brilliant, others aren't quite as workable.

A lot of conversation was devoted to discussing moral justification, which situations were appropriate and which were not, and a lot of discussion about the restraint of violence. Some other solutions tread into moral and legal uncertainty, like snares or traps.

I can't see how this thread was anything other than a success...?

Sorry for my part in 'damaging' your thread, Rosemary.

Aaron

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Re: Alternatives to a Gun Arsenal in Post Peak America

I don't think if someone starts a thread that it belongs to them, any more than a conversation with other people belongs to you just because you made the first comment.  It is to start all people talking.  The information belongs to those that read it and contribute.

I think Rosemary started this thread hoping to find some more peaceful solutions than guns and is frustrated because there is not a lot.  But the mere fact that she wanted to compare other solutions to a gun (weapon) in the first place - results in discussion about weapons.  Some of us brainstormed, but the reality is that nobody came up with many alternatives to guns.

I agree with Aaron - some brilliant information and inightful points of view have been put forward by all.  Plant guy, great point, guns are another tool, and if it wasn't guns, it would be something else.

I would like us to all feel free to speak our mind without feeling like we shouldn't dare to post in a thread like this.  Crikey, if it is a peaceful world Rosemary wants then surely freedom of speech comes first !

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Re: Alternatives to a Gun Arsenal in Post Peak America

Amanda -

I have to cover your forum picture up when I read your posts now.  You evidently have the perfect balance of humor and seriousness - but the picture kills me evry time.

Once I stop snickering I'll get around to saying good points in your post above - especially the opening paragraph. 

The picture is awesome - you certainly are exercising your freedom of expression rights.

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Re: Alternatives to a Gun Arsenal in Post Peak America

Thanks Dogs!

Maybe somebody could start a thread entitled " Peaceful solutions and Remedies in post peak america " in Rosemary's honour.  With one rule that nobody is allowed to say the G word.

I just don't know how many people would have much to say.  I think there is a general consensus that it won't be a very peaceful time.

 

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Re: Alternatives to a Gun Arsenal in Post Peak America

An alternative to guns?  How about your mind.  Find your enemy's weak spot and exploit it.  Are they hungry?  Offer some food - an unexpected reaction to threat might be enough to allow you the chance to incapacitate or disarm them 'peacefully'.  Of course, then you still have the problem of what to do with them and if they have a friend who is bent on hurting you you've played your hand.

My point is, though, that once you've drawn a weapon you've illustrated that every other option you can think of has been exhausted and I tend to believe that most of the time it doesn't have to come to that.  In an end of the world and many other possible scenarios it may (and you'll be well served to be armed and trained in your weapon's use), but understanding your enemy and being quick to think will solve many more problems than a gun will.

That said, I find it interesting that so many of the arguments have to do with an idea of roving bands of criminals or desperate starving people.  This may someday be an issue but if history has anything to teach us, it is more likely that our right to bear arms will need to be used to combat the tyrrany of a government (like any organism, it will lash out and fight to stave off its own death, irrespective of the inconveneience it causes you and I) before we have to combat our neighbors.

I lived in NYC through the Sept. 11 attacks as well as a 24hr (plus or minus) power blackout a few months later.  In both cases I can honestly say that I have never experienced such feelings of comraderie with my neighbors.  Good will and peacefulness abounded, people were freer to open their doors and donate what they had for others in need.  Granted, this was only for a three month period or so and the supply lines were never totally cut off, but I tend to have faith that people will try at least to communicate and cooperate in hard circumstances.  Sure, if real starvation persists, we'll tend to turn on each other but the probabilities of what happens then are a bit too wide for me to imagine I can really plan for it right now.

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Re: Alternatives to a Gun Arsenal in Post Peak America

capesurvivor wrote:

I have no quarrels with the home entry scenario you suggest; any reasonable person would do as you would.

Still, you might find "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob helpful. He is a working cop, martial arts teacher, testifies (usually for cops) as an expert witness, and runs Lethal Force Institute in NH.  He has carried a small roll of bills with him as a civvie to toss to potentially menacing street folks, saying "guys, go have a beer on me" (while armed) knowing, as he says that the second worst thing to being shot is to shoot someone. Even in self defense situations, you may be sued by relatives, hassled by DA's, and generally suffer bad times even when you were "right." While he is certainly a proponent of armed self defense, he is also committed to avoiding confrontation whenever possible.

In my friend's scenario, picture what you would have said to a DA if the crackers in the car had had a few minors or an infant in the car with them and he had fired directly into the car and killed them. The first rule of firearms is don't shoot at what you don't see. Folks up in NE get killed by hunters every year, once for wearing white mittens ("thought it was a deer)" in their backyard while hanging up clothes.

The law still says use the force necessary to meet the threat.

Maybe we should tackle an easier topic here..how about abortion?

Well, Rosemary, you probably got more than you asked for.

SG

Good point Cape. Although I am certain as I can be without actually having ever had an encounter that I would use lethal force to protect my fiancee and myself I must honestly admit that I think it would be psychologically devastating to experience the taking of a human life. 

To be honest, I would rather not. I have to wonder, with my sanctity for human life so strong, if it would screw me up mentally for life. But I do know that witnessing my fiancee harmed or myself taking a dirt nap would be far worse. First, I hope that I would never have to do it, and, barring a complete collapse the odds are thankfully in favor of my never having to do so, and second, if God forbid I ever did have to take a life in self-defense, I'll give the psychologist a chance rather than an undertaker. 

You know, guns to me have been about hunting and target sports, sans some crazy typical machismo in my younger years. But after meeting my sweetie I added self-defense to the list of reasons for having them. 

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Re: Alternatives to a Gun Arsenal in Post Peak America

Aaron Moyer wrote:

Reminds me of a saying:

Quote:
Dulce bellum inexpertise

"War is sweet for the inexperienced"

The young are allured with the notion of honor and glory, and they should be. I don't believe that it's necessary to go to war, or to take wars to the level we've taken them, but young men especially need something to believe in.

To quote one of my favorite movies...

Quote:
"Just because something isn't exactly true doesn't mean you can't believe in it... Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love… true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in.”

Robert Duvall in "Second Hand Lions"
Quite possibly one of the most moving movies ever made - funny too.

Cheers!

Aaron

I haven't followed this thread for awhile. Wow, nearly as contentious as the Religion and Politics thread, and that is saying something!

Just chiming in to second "Second Hand Lions". We watched it for the first time with our three sons just a week ago. The boys weren't too interested in seeing it, but once it started, they couldn't take their eyes off the screen! I think they wished they had a couple of eccentric, old uncles, instead of just their mother and father. Anyway, highly recommended! 

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Re: Alternatives to a Gun Arsenal in Post Peak America

Straight.

Your using the perjorative that gun advocates for self-defense purposes are "deluded" certainly doesn't help with dialogue as my response to you is a polite "whether I choose to own a firearm or not is really none of your business".

Second. I worked in the heart of an urban trauma center for 4 years and have seen literally hundreds of gun violence incidents after the fact. So, it is distastefully presumptious of you to assume that no one here knows what they are talking about in this respect. Furthermore, one does not need the experience that I have seen to understand the implications. 

And one last thing. Those gun trauma incidents that I witnessed, and helped in many cases to attempt to revive? Just another damn good reason to own a firearm. Because I witnessed more than a few dead innocents "snuffed out" in a heartbeat by people that aren't exactly the nicest folks in the city. 

I find your tone highly offensive. 

A. M.'s picture
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Re: Alternatives to a Gun Arsenal in Post Peak America

Doc Peters,

Thank you for the compliment!
"Second Hand Lions" is absolutely one of my favorites. Mainly because I *did* have two crazy old coots like that bossing me around throughout my formative years.

I attribute most of my good qualities to them, and I think it's extremely important for young men especially to have mentorship from rough-hewn old bastards who don't baby them. It grows a strong sense of independence and self-reliance, as well as respect for your elders.
Unfortunately, I think a father can only teach "so much" before the pushing out of the nest process begins, and the boys begin challenging the father for authority.

At least, that's been my experience.

As has been mentioned, the best "weapon" is your mind.
Ivoryjackal, thanks for posting that. You're absolutely right. More often than not, the problem with kids who turn predatory is poor influence and lack of guidance.

If you look at gang formation and recruitment, it's almost always an older guy who presents an image of power coercing a younger man into doing something he naturally has moral objections to.

All our social programs and we still can't figure out why these prissy old white guys in ties aren't having any effect on inner city kids who've never respected anything but power.

Cheers!

Aaron

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Re: Alternatives to a Gun Arsenal in Post Peak America

Rosemary

Quote:
Ok, this is a bleeding capillary from a thread where guns came up once
again as the primary way to protect oneself and ones family when shtf. 
I am truly shocked that little has been said in this most erudite forum
about other means of doing that other than shooting a gun at somebody. 
So I think it is time to talk about the wily ways  human beings have of
protecting themselves, their families and their properties in the midst
of the possible chaos that confronts us today. 

I think the reason for this (since I'm armed) is that it makes logical sense. I grew up in the UK moved to the US in 2001, I'm currently naturalizing. So I understand where you're coming from as far as society is concerned, although I have to say that I disagreed with the legislation that followed both Dunblane, and Hungerford. 

The issue that I see is this, we have a culture, both in the US and the UK, and that society has certain specializations that are required for the society to function. There is also a sub-society, the criminal element, that does not follow the currently established society, therefore does not have the restrictions, specializations and comforts that the overlying society does.

If Society falls, and I think we all suspect that it will. Then the impact to the majority society is catastrophic, it breaks down, once the specializations (law enforcement, military) opt to survive rather than serve the dead society, this will not impact the criminal society in any way, the Mafia still operated out of Sicily during German occupation.during WWII. These people are armed, and experienced in the use of those arms. Relying on others for your safety will no longer be an option, unless you rely on the mercy of the criminal society. I have a deep faith in human nature, that results in me believing that underneath everything we're just a smarter form of ape, without a cultural imperative we will revert to small scale tribes, and like all of these some will be generally peaceful, and some will not. 

As Thomas Jefferson said, "The price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance"

As George Orwell said "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Those of us who are armed, and trained in the use and maintenance of our weaponry are prepared to show Vigilance, and we do not rely on Rough Men ready to do violence on our behalf.

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