The legal case for drone strikes on Americans

Travlin
By Travlin on Sun, Feb 17, 2013 - 7:56pm

 “A confidential Justice Department memo concludes that the U.S. government can order the killing of American citizens if they are believed to be “senior operational leaders” of al-Qaida or “an associated force” -- even if there is no intelligence indicating they are engaged in an active plot to attack the U.S.”

Read the full article here.

On the face of it that doesn’t sound too bad.  They’re al-Qaida after all and we know what they did to us.  And there not “real” Americans if they’re over there in the Middle East running around with those guys, right?  But the more you look into this the murkier and more ominous it gets.

These are after all American citizens being killed by the direct order of the President of the United States.  The bases for this is a “white paper” issued by President Obama’s own lawyers; not even a formal legal brief.  This was only released grudgingly after strong pressure from Congress.  The wording is broad and flexible.  So far as we know it is only being applied outside the US.  For now.  But what protects us from a “re-interpretation” later?  Not much apparently.

US Judge Coleen McMahon is overseeing a lawsuit on this matter.  "McMahon, describing herself as being caught in a “veritable Catch-22,”  said she was unable to order the release of the documents given “the thicket of laws and precedents that effectively allow the executive branch of our government to proclaim as perfectly lawful certain actions that seem on their face incompatible with our Constitution and laws while keeping the reasons for the conclusion a secret.”

"In her ruling, McMahon noted that administration officials “had engaged in public discussion of the legality of targeted killing, even of citizens.” But, she wrote, they have done so “in cryptic and imprecise ways, generally without citing … any statute or court decision that justifies its conclusions.”

While it may be possible to make a valid legal case for killing American citizens by the President of the United States in certain circumstances – that process must be open to public debate, agreement, and Congressional sanction.  Otherwise we are back to the King saying, “off with his head”.  This was founded as a nation of laws, not of men.  That was one of our fundamental distinctions.  Without it, no one is safe.

Read the white paper here.

Travlin

Previous posts -- Please alert me of any previous posts on this topic and I will link to them.

Note: If you're reading this and are not yet a member of Peak Prosperity's Civil Liberties Group, please consider joining it now. It's where our active community discusses changes being made to our personal freedoms  - as doing so will help us understand what is happening, and how we want to deal with them. Simply go here and click the "Join Today" button.

64 Comments

MarkM's picture
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Good topic

Travlin,

I believe this topic is important to this group of people. They are awake to varying degrees and looking for more information to shape their views.

The "Three E's" are of great importance. However, I see the potential for the tightening noose of the federal government to have a greater impact in the short term than any of those. I also feel that the erosion of civil liberties will be accelerated by the impact of these three influences as the central powers fight to maintain control of the situation.

My first concern with your initial post is that it always seems to be the "thin end of the wedge" when government enacts laws. They seem to be expanded and reinforced as time passes. Who would have thought ten years ago that the President would openly talk about assassinating American citizens? Even if the current administration does not expand on the specifics of the policy, the tool is now in the box and can certainly be used more heinously by future administrations. The language of these things seems to always be ambiguous.

The government has told so many lies to this point that there credibility is, rightly, in shambles and therefore all of their actions are to be viewed through the lens of their past transgressions.

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ao
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tremendous opportunities

Not much time to post lately but here's a good job opportunity for those who are so inclined.

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=166efd9e4bc8250834424288d7f33067&tab=core&_cview=1

Heard on the radio that bidding just went up today for the first of the 30,000 planned drones ... part of RAPS (the Robotic Aircraft for Public Safety project).  What a great sounding program!  I'm very optimistic about what this means.  Nothing's more American than aviation.  Plus we'll all be safe.  And it'll provide jobs.  Just think of the opportunities.  Good stuff.  No one can dissuade me that this is a wonderful example of American technology leading the way to new and better things.  Me and My Adored One will sit out on the back deck, sipping hot chocolate, watching these things happily buzzing overhead.  It'll be better than bird watching ... not even any bird poop to worry about.  And remember, it's for our safety ... and for our children.  It's the wave of the future ... yes, indeedy.  It'll be my ticket to prosperity and fun at the same time in the days ahead.  I can earn Drone-O-Bucks while at the same time, indulging my hobby of remote control aircraft.  Woohoo!  Go Packers.  

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You said it

MarkM wrote:

The "Three E's" are of great importance. However, I see the potential for the tightening noose of the federal government to have a greater impact in the short term than any of those. I also feel that the erosion of civil liberties will be accelerated by the impact of these three influences as the central powers fight to maintain control of the situation.

Hi Mark

Your comment above says it all.  Ao is the one who first made me aware of this, and events have convinced me he is right.  This is a clear and present danger.  There are many posts scattered around the site on these issues.  I think it’s time we brought them to a central location to build awareness.  I hope everyone feels free to help copy and link old posts, and add new ones.

Travlin

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Here you go Ao

Hi Ao

Anticipating domestic boom, colleges rev up drone piloting programs
http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/29/16726198-anticipating-domestic-boom-colleges-rev-up-drone-piloting-programs?lite

While most jobs flying drones currently are military-related, universities and colleges expect that to change by 2015, when the Federal Aviation Administration is due to release regulations for unmanned aircraft in domestic airspace. Once those regulations are in place, the FAA predicts that 10,000 commercial drones will be operating in the U.S. within five years.

Although just three schools currently offer degrees in piloting unmanned aircraft, many others – including community colleges – offer training for remote pilots. And those numbers figure are set to increase, with some aviation industry analysts predicting drones will eventually come to dominate the U.S. skies in terms of jobs.   At the moment, 358 public institutions – including 14 universities and colleges – have permits from the FAA to fly unmanned aircraft.

Thanks for opening my eyes to the bigger issue.

Travlin

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Perspective Folks, I recommend challenging your assumptions...

,,,and normalcy biases. Drones, like so many things and tactics that the police state have tried since the beginning of our Republic has been a challenge. This Drone thing is just such an example. I imagine the Supreme Court will hear this case some day.

Drones are an invasion on our privacy if used to invade our privacy, and will be removed from the sky's if this is their intent. I have the faith.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-19/just-say-no-seattle-residents-kill-city%E2%80%99s-drone-program

No comments are necessary, just my opinion and that as they say is that.

BOB

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Faith

Love your faith Bob, don't ever stop.

RJE wrote:

,,,and normalcy biases. Drones, like so many things and tactics that the police state have tried since the beginning of our Republic has been a challenge. This Drone thing is just such an example. I imagine the Supreme Court will hear this case some day.

Drones are an invasion on our privacy if used to invade our privacy, and will be removed from the sky's if this is their intent. I have the faith.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-19/just-say-no-seattle-residents-kill-city%E2%80%99s-drone-program

No comments are necessary, just my opinion and that as they say is that.

BOB

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Escalation

First the drones will be used for surveillance, then for transport of goods, then for transporting people. I'd imagine that some day, they may even be used to demolish large buildings in crowded cities ...

Grover

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on Faith

In the words of Mark Twain:  "Being a man of Faith allows him to believe as true, things that he knows just ain't so".  Aloha, Steve

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Twain also said:

"Twiddly sticks" and "Hogwash" and "Never give up the Faith my Boys"...

Well he did! Everybody did back in the day, it was their slang, dudes. 

Contexts my good Folks, context.

What I have always loved about Mark Twain was that he used the system to bankrupt his debt away, as many here may still. Then he paid all his creditors back when he made good again (or so the story goes).

A short story: "Twain was friends with many Presidents, and is probably responsible for what is happening today as they may have set out to destroy this country before even the Jekyll Island conspiracy, and as patient men they have finally come to the day when patience has finally paid off."

End of story.

I write these words as Tom Sawyer might have, and is what he did, entertained with the printed word, it's how he made his cash. He used Fear, Sex, Adventure, and everything at his disposal including his tongue while speaking to particular audiences to tell them what they wanted to hear, not necessary what he believed, to sell copy (books). It's called business.

"There is nothing to fear but fear itself"!!!.

I know it wasn't Twain but Roosevelt. Sheesh.

I just woke from a nap and are rather perky, don't you think.

LOL

OK, music then:

Tearful. I would stand with Canadians, Australian's, Russians, Japanese, Chinese, and anyone person who wishes the most basic desire to be free. I just would. You know what, as a melting pot we all have stood together, and is uniquely American.

BOB

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Can there be prosperity without civil liberties?

"While it may be possible to make a valid legal case for killing American citizens by the President of the United States in certain circumstances – that process must be open to public debate, agreement, and Congressional sanction.  Otherwise we are back to the King saying, “off with his head”.  This was founded as a nation of laws, not of men.  That was one of our fundamental distinctions.  Without it, no one is safe."

Nor can anyone enjoy true prosperity except those in the King's circle. 

With the president asserting that he has assumed the right to assasinate anyone, anywhere, and for any suspicion he deems to be valid, we have never been so unsafe.  And, with his Justice Department's determination that some citizens and instituitons are untouchable by the rule of law, there is no safety and prosperity within the reach of ordinary citizens.

Thank you for initiating this group.  The importance of this topic transcends all of the discussions on this site relating to preparing for "peak prosperity."

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Good for you Kathy

As far as I know our President has not ever made this decision, and I would argue that when made it BETTER BE a serious threat to our Constitution. The President will NOT give this order, and to think he will is unfair and putting the cart before the horse. Because of history is why many places are banning drones use. It's a peoples thing not government.

I understand in our past things have been done, and hopefully we have learned from our mistakes. We have, and will continue to have these discussions however, and thankfully we have the rights too. I have argued all along that it will be the Folks like Kathy here who will "Stand Up" and not let this happen. It will be because we have a few hundred million people who WILL NOT let things get so out of hand.

Yes, so great to have this discussion. It isn't what's happened that matters, it's stopping them from happening again. My God, just having this discussion is what we have fought for, what we care about above everything else. Do you actually think NO ONE cares, and are so complacent, and to call out past example of Fascism as our fate? Paleeeease, give me a break. Quite the stretch I think.

Are we ever going to have a Podcast with Mark Cochrane or not? I think climate is more interesting than this stuff frankly. I just wish I would get an answer one way or the other. I'm older and things bug me. It's bad for the heart you know, stressing out about things. How hard is this simple courtesy to do, to answer a Man's simple question? Maybe I missed the memo, and have been answered, I just don't know.

Cheerios then, their good for the heart.

Respectfully Given

BOB

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American citizens

This is not to debate whether or not these killings should have occurred, merely to point out that they have occurred on the order of the current President.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/05/16856963-american-drone-deaths-highlight-controversy?lite

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Horse Has Already Left the Barn

MarkM,

Thank you for the link.  I was looking for one from a mainstream source.  As much as I'd like to share Bob's optimism, I'm afraid we're already in up to our necks.

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Saw my first live drone landing....

As I passed Beale AFB a few nights ago I saw my first US based drone landing and it did give me an uneasy feeling.  Especially since this was right after it was said that drones were to be used in the man hunt for Dorner.  I had not realized that a base of operations for the drone army was so close to my home.  It makes me wonder about what level of survaliance data is being collected in even the most remote rural areas. They see all. 

DARPA's new 1.8-gigapixel camera is a super high-resolution eye in the sky

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Fear

"A simple and useful definition of fear is:

An anxious feeling, caused by our anticipation
of some imagined event or experience."

Hey Folks before I get started on whatever it is I am going to write, I want you all to know that I know Fear. When my Dad used to get upset, it usually happened with two of my Brothers. We were close in age (a year apart) so my Dad knocked out three stones with one angry episode. He would have me so scared that he would just fake he was going to hit me, and I would pee my pants, and when I looked at my brothers they both had pinched off their package too as they had pee'd also. Yeah, really funny! LOL.

If I were fearful of a governmental plot and someone comes along and tells me a hoot of a story then I would think my "already heightened fear" would be even more fearful. Is there any more reason to be more fearful especially if for a fact you have no idea if what was told to you actually happened. NO! 

It wouldn't matter either, you heard your primal message based on your wiring, as what is most often feared is sought out by other like minded fearful people, thus strengthening your fear.. Yes?

For instance: I am telling you that you have no idea for certain that a drone has fired on an American citizen in the United States yet your fears have already imagined this as a reality. You are supported by other Folks with similar fear responses, and together what a tale could be imagined. Now, I come along and say, "hey, wait just a minute. How about we let this play out, let the other good Folks have their say and see if we can't change things here. I say no F-ing way this is going down, and God forbid it ever does". I get seriously abused as a lunatic, unrealistic, in denial, and 5 stages of grief haven't even been contemplated. What a loser.

I say, Hogwash.

Fear is of the mind and unless it has happened to you, and you have witnessed it then why Fear it?

Still, why Fear it? The acts are usually random.

I understand things happen to us that are profound and the wiring in the brain takes a lot of re-wiring after traumatic events, and time lessons these Fears. 

I Feared Death growing up but strangely I do not now. I know it is reality, and I also know that however I go it doesn't really matter now does it. I'm Dead so why fear it. I move on either as minerals to the earth or my soul is separated to some wonder or not. I do hope it's quick though.

I have known Fear but that's not living in Fear of what might happen. I think that's a big distinction.

This economy has me fearful. What happens after a serious world wide crash? You Buy Gold and Silver as insurance against this, and hope that's enough. There now, Fear is gone and is why I hold these physical metals because it makes me happy, less fearful.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brainsnacks/201203/the-only-five-basic-fears-we-all-live

I do love you all Folks, I really do.

Boo!!!LOL

BOB

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RJE wrote: As far as I know

RJE wrote:

As far as I know our President has not ever made this decision, and I would argue that when made it BETTER BE a serious threat to our Constitution. The President will NOT give this order, and to think he will is unfair and putting the cart before the horse. Because of history is why many places are banning drones use. It's a peoples thing not government.

I understand in our past things have been done, and hopefully we have learned from our mistakes.

We simply can't know beyond a doubt that the president hasn't made this decision in the past.

Given the sins of commission and omission the government and Fed have recently committed it is most definitely NOT unfair to consider the possibility that the president might indeed give such an order, if he hasn't already.  Our government is not acting in a lawful manner or abiding by the constitution.

I see no evidence that we have learned from our past, quite the opposite.  We are currently making horrendous mistakes that have repeatedly proven unwise historically.

Les

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They see all

Jason,

The street view on Google earth really tells a big part of the story. I figure that what ever they allow the public to use is only a fraction of their capabilities.

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The sum of the parts

MarkM,

Marcus Aurelius penned in his stoic philosophy:
"Of each particular thing, ask, what is it in itself, in it's own construction?"

This applies here in spades. What is a Drone?
What does it do? How does it do it?
Where? 

All things raveled can be unraveled by asking such questions.

People - write your representatives! Tell them you do not feel safe with such things in the sky. 
Please tell them that the potential for abuse outweighs the short term gains in "security".

I truly wish we'd never come to this state in human history. 
The energy we've devoted to overwhelming our fears has spawned nightmares in excess of our initial worries.
Aaron

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Edited for content

Edited for content

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Les,

all of what you say is impacting you, and is I presume causing you to comment. You comment not out of Fear of a drone attack, you comment to stop the use of drones from attacking you. That is my argument. You have this right, freedom of speech, and are willing to put this right into action by writing your words. I assume then you do not Fear anything, and are willing to speak up as I say we all will, and if we do then government will stand down.

What happens in these type conversations is all Fears are now placed on the table, and we are talking about drones. It ends up taking on a totally different conspiratorial theme. 

I really hope you Folks are understanding me. I say the President better have a serious argument for the use of drones, and it better not be State side as this will not end well with the people of the United States..

What happens in other countries with our drones I am not privy to and am not aware of the REAL truth. I have, however, observed in my lifetime that people who hang with bad guys, are innocent, are sometimes collateral damage.That sounds harsh but is reality in every city USA on a daily basis, and has no conspiratorial theme at all. Often it is set aside by racial profiling. Meaning: Just another Brother blowing away another Brother because of drugs. No Fear, why, you won't ever go there, to their neighborhood. Problem solved.

Lastly, I do not believe anyone here cares about collateral damage to Folks in Pakistan when a drone blows away our trade center bombers or perceived enemy, and that someone innocent dies. I feel their deaths sure, like you do but it's time for Bonanza now. Why? Desensitized. That will not be the case if a drone fires on an American citizen, and I guarantee you that.

Regards

BOB

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Me either Aaron,

...and is why we write our congressman and protest even if we Fear being profiled at a rally. Look, just protest and be less Fearful is the message. If a drone fires on you then all drones go bye bye. The people will NOT stand for this, they just won't.

BOB

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A.M. I will write

People - write your representatives! Tell them you do not feel safe with such things in the sky. 
Please tell them that the potential for abuse outweighs the short term gains in "security".

I truly wish we'd never come to this state in human history. 
The energy we've devoted to overwhelming our fears has spawned nightmares in excess of our initial worries.
Aaron

Whether you want a reset or not, it's important to let your voice be heard. I've sat through too many town hall meetings and public forums wondering...where is everyone?

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Aaron

A. M. wrote:

MarkM,

Marcus Aurelius penned in his stoic philosophy:
"Of each particular thing, ask, what is it in itself, in it's own construction?"

This applies here in spades. What is a Drone?
What does it do? How does it do it?
Where? 

All things raveled can be unraveled by asking such questions.

People - write your representatives! Tell them you do not feel safe with such things in the sky. 
Please tell them that the potential for abuse outweighs the short term gains in "security".

I truly wish we'd never come to this state in human history. 
The energy we've devoted to overwhelming our fears has spawned nightmares in excess of our initial worries.
Aaron

A tool. Whatever it is instructed to do by it's operator, wherever it is instructed to do it.

I take it that you believe our representatives truly represent. I spend plenty (too much) of my time writing and calling my elected officials. I get plenty of canned responses. I wrote to them of my feelings about TARP, as well, and you see what their response was to the voice of the electorate. I am thinking of going to their local offices to personally speak to their staff.

We have not been vigilant in keeping the beast of our federal government in check and I feel the redirection of them will not be easy or pretty. They have exhausted their goodwill with me and every thing they do is viewed through the lens of well earned scepticism.

Please elaborate on your last statement.

It would be great if we could all have this discussion around a roaring fire with a beverage or two of choice in hand.

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Come to Rowe

Mark -

Come to our seminar at Rowe next month and you can.

cheers,

A

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Exactly as it should be

MarkM,
That's exactly how this conversation should be done.
No, I don't believe we're being represented. But it checks the box. Its something to say "we tried" when more educated, scholarly and legally bestowed men declare "enough!" and draft legal grievances.

So, yes, drones are a tool. They fly. They use cameras. They require fuel and operators.
Without those things, they are nothing.
My last statement was just lamentations on how near we are to our feudal roots. How we have tried, as best as our kind will allow, to break free of slavery, oppression, grant rights and give the populace a voice.
But here we are, at the twilight of this American experiment, looking at the most awesome and devastating machines of destruction ever amassed, with no "real" enemies but ourselves and mother nature.
It just seems so sardonic.

The vast majority of people are two things:
1. Basically Good
2. Self serving

The combination is a recipe for social apathy and that's what we have.
So, what can we do?
Wait for populations to wake up? To fight back? To protest?
No matter what we do, there are too many of us, and that issue is rapidly escaping our human sphere of influence. The logical outflow is conflict. Violent, nasty conflict... And drones are just one more part of that.

This is worse, to me, than the threat of terrorism, which could be addressed if we weren't do married to political correctness. Without getting too contentious, some sociopolitical ideologies just cannot coexist.
Instead of make that determination, we have decided to make "everything" into a potential terrorist or tool of terrorism.

This is less organized than I'd like it to be, but my computer is broke and I have to reply with my phone.
Ahhhh first world problems.

Aaron

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Aaron, you are a throw back, and I like very much...

...your spirit. I wish I could assure you that everything will be fine but I cannot. I do know however that we will live out our natural lives. It is how you live that matters, and not that you lived. Decide what your fundamental person is, and stay true. My best advice and hope for you.

Regards

BOB

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Mark,

a roaring fire sounds good to me. I would really like to sit in that situation with all of you Folks. Have a beer, Crown and Sprite, and who knows. That sounds great.

I wish you all well.

BOB

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Aaron,

...check this out and picture millions just like you, I'm like you, and truly, when you open your mouth we will back you. I promise. You will live a rewarding and beautiful life, I am sure of this.

Bob

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But will they hear...

Bob,

I just love that movie! Would TPTB hear our cries or would they hear this?:

I'm still going to write the letter because I believe A.M. is right.

Peace

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Anyone help?

Bob,

have you seen the end of that picture?

Anyway, I wrote and posted what's written below about 12 hours ago, and then decided to delete it and think a little more.

I've thought a little more and decided to re-post.

I've been trying to figure something out and hoped this community could help. Yesterday I clicked on the embedded link in Travins opening post here, where he wrote:

Read the full article here.

Anyway, there I found a piece from NBC news from - "Michael Isokoff in our D.C news room for us tonight". I found another copy of the news piece on You Tube that I could embed to help refresh memory:

So, for some reason I got to thinking, who owns NBC. Maybe a stupid question I know, but I googled and found out that Comcast owns 51% of NBC Universal, and GE owns 49%.

So, who are GE?

Well GE stands for General Electric, and General Electric has a subdivision called GE Aviation. They supply a whole host of moving parts and complete engines for Lockheed Martin. Lockheed Martin build drones.

I know it seems weak to connect up a slim line of dots between the 6th largest, and 14th most profitable corporation in the United States and a subsiduary news program that it owns. Particularly, as they appeared to "break" the news on this show that would prove negative to GE. But, the man who "broke" the news about drones - Michael Isokoff of Newsweek/The Daily Beast - and also a subsiduary organization connected to GE through IAC/InterActiveCorp - well, I kind of got to thinking that all of these talking heads on the clip all work for the same group that's putting drones above our heads.

So, why would they be using this kind of negative bias against their paymasters unless there were some flipside that in the longrun was beneficial to GE?

I've been thinking maybe that it takes more than creating positive spin to make public relations work. Maybe they also need negative spin too - and what better than using your own news broadcasting company to do that?

Next, imagine how many politicians and such around the country - in every state - need to keep their employment figures looking rosey that build all of the parts for these drones. Who's going to go on camera against building drones if it'll help keep jobs?

I think the debate is really just about to begin

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Hilarious

...I just laughed Gillbilly.

I know we are talking about a very serious topic hear, and I fully understand what is going on out there as most of you do. I fully understand also that it is in the process of keeping the powers that be on their toes, and we not be so complacent that we allow them to so dominate. It's in fighting for every inch that miles aren't taken, and that is the game. It is. I do not care one bit if I have a file on me 4 inches thick, I will NOT shut up. That simple.

I am no hero now either so no false bravado. If at a rally, and the situation gets silly then I am out of there. I do not wish to be front and center to mace, a back end of a rifle or any such non-sense. I will however, return to my little square in the grass tomorrow and protest these issues again.

Everyone thinks these times are different but in my most formative years I seen Kennedy get shot in the back of his limousine moments after it happened. I watched John, John solute his Pops casket as it passed by. I seen what the Blacks protest in the South achieved, and they were hosed and attacked by vicious Men and dogs. I seen King get shot on that balcony, and Bobby shot in California, allof these within moments of happening. I lived through Watergate, Nixon and Agnew. The inflation of Carter. and Reagan getting shot. Clinton and the soiled blue dress as Arafat waited in the hallway. This is just the world we live in, and we just be weary of those who want it all and stop them. All of this today is challenging but we will get through this, we just will.

I have traveled to many places in the world, and many of the States here in the United States. The world still looks at the US as the beacon of hope. We really do have it so much better than anywhere else, and it is hard to see sometimes. It has been because of the good Folks like you and me who have maintained the foundations of life, and will still. That being Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. It isn't about the dollar or any such thing, it's about Freedom, and everything else settles in its place once the necessities are accomplished. Like Food, Water, Clothing, and Shelter.

Martin Luther King had a dream, and to this day that speech makes my hair raise on my arm as it did when I first heard it LIVE on TV. Tears are hard to hold back, even today. We have to dream, and sometimes some super human comes along and gives his life for a cause greater than himself. I'd say then that one person can make a difference, and it may have just been a quiet Man on some college campus who inspired a King, and had no idea he did or perhaps it was his Pops. Who knows but these figures come at the most appropriate time. I think here in America we find our Lincolns, Jefferson's, Kings, and know very well what to do with the Hitler types.

Why are all of us at Chris Martenson's blog site even talking about this stuff? Why did Adam join the partnership? We are so diverse yet we are all here at the same time. I find that an amazing coincidence frankly. Young, Old, loud, quiet, concerned, confused, happy, and trying to figure things out. This is happening everywhere as my group of friends, neighbors and family members think just as we do or are stirring a bit. It's who we are, scattered all over the place. Arthur, why the hell is he here? Cochrane, why is he here? Amazing stuff I think. I think too for a greater cause than just ourselves. That is what motivates me every day of my life. I live my life for someone else, and I happen to think that is the greatest calling.

Respectfully given to ALL

BOB

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RJE
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Posts: 1369
fionnhbarr, I did and you did a helluva job following up,

...and I appreciated this very much. It does make the hair on the back of your neck stand up for sure.

Now, please consider however that stories like this have been the norm since our arms dealers sold weapons to the Indians for trinkets of Gold that were then used to kill our babies. The Indians babies. We still persevered. Although, I am deeply saddened that this had ever occurred, the complete and total destruction of the Indians.

In World War ll we had so many bazaar things happen from our businesses actually suing our government for bombing factories in Germany that were used to build weapons to fight against our troops. Again, we are a system of laws and challenges and have been since our revolution, since the dawn of Man really, and we are ever evolving. I say we still are.

I am happy that the hard fought rights to be human has been in some small measure built here in the United States, and it is an imperative that we continue this yet completed goal set and continue resisting.

We have given the world the Internet, and this will pay dividends as we go forward. Maybe the greatest invention ever.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/gm.html

There is no mystery to today as it has all happened before, and it was the good Folks in the world who still will fight against their oppressors, they always have.

An American citizen who conspires with a known enemy with logistics or propaganda that causes the death of another American citizen, are guilty of that crime by association, and is collateral damage to a counter measure is unfortunate, and is his issue, and he took the known risks. No different to me than a get away driver getting shot as the robbers of a bank get into the car.

Lastly, to add to this conspiracy of GE. I do believe that GE is the brain child of JP Morgan, and consolidated back in the day by his owning Edison and all patents, and just one little piece of the House of Morgan. Now lets add JP Morgan Bank and all that bullshit. This beast goes way back, and has been fought for over a century, and will continue to be fought for another century by the good Folks like us.

BOB

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gillbilly
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Posts: 377
Good, it was meant to be funny...

This is a very serious topic, but if we can't laugh at times, we will go crazy. 

Best

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A. M.
Status: Diamond Member (Online)
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Posts: 2297
America may be F***'d... but... (humorous)

...Not as bad as this...

Cheers,

Aaron

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ao
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Posts: 2220
America's tranceformation and desensitization
Drones are simply a small part of the total mosaic that any reasonably sentient, aware, and intelligent individual sees forming in this country.  Taken by themselves, in isolation, they are of no great immediate concern.  They are largely overgrown remote control toys.  It is who controls them and to what purposes they are being put and will be put in the future that is important.  But let's pull back a bit to gain perspective and provide context. 
 
One must have rule of law to have a just and free country.  After all, "without rules, there is chaos".  Where is the rule of law for prosecuting connected Jon Corzine?  Where is the rule of law for prosecuting Tim Geithner for income tax evasion?  Where is the rule of law for prosecuting Eric Holder for the Fast and Furious debacle (or at least firing him)?  Where is the rule of law addressing responsibility in the Benghazi incident?  Where is the rule of law when the Constitution is violated with the Patriot Act and the NDAA?  Where is the rule of law when executive power bypasses and trumps legislative power with executive orders and judicial power bypasses and trumps legislative power with judicial rulings?  Where is the rule of law when our legislative branch fails to fulfill its mandate to its constituents?
 
Why are our representatives no longer responsive to us?  Calling them or writing them is largely an exercise in futility and a waste of time.  To a person, with the apparent except of Ron Paul and perhaps, Dennis Kucinich, they are all bought-and-paid for and corrupted, blackmailed, or otherwise coerced into compliance.  Remember, how many listened to us about the bail-outs?  How about the fiasco where a whole host of them first supported Ron Paul's Audit the Fed bill and then, abruptly betrayed and deserted the cause when their strings were pulled?
 
Why do we kill Osama Bin Laden when SEAL teams such as this specialize in capturing enemies alive for interrogation and intelligence purposes?  And this man would be one of the best intelligence sources of all time, if what they say about him is true.  And why was his body so quickly disposed?  There is much,much more about this subject.     
 
Why is there no investigation as to how a Boeing 757 with a 125 foot wingspan coming in at an angle to the Pentagon (meaning that an area even wider than that would be impacted) only caused damage extending for a width of perhaps 50 feet across, at most?  Study all the other numerous aspects of this crash, and see what has been purged, altered, edited, deleted, etc., to see how it goes unexplained by the 9/11 Commission Report.  There is much, much more about this subject.
 
Why is there no investigation as to how WTC Building 7 can collapse neatly, uniformly, symmetrically,and completely in its footprint at freefall speed (with a neat little crimp in the center of the building) to a pulverized heap with no direct aircraft impact and limited fire when no steel structure building in history has ever collapsed from fire and there was not even jet fuel in that building to produce a fire such as occurred with WTC (fuel which, by the way, produces a fire of a temperature significantly below that which would cause structural weakening of steel)?  There is much, much more about this subject.
 
Why is there no investigation of why we attacked Iraq and commenced what could be called, "The March Through the Middle East", as described by General Wesley Clark with Syria now the present target of attention?  Why have we now deployed approximately 100 separate military units to operations in Africa?  Why do we now have so many mercenaries, uh "contractors" that can be bought instead of the citizen armies that served our republic so well in the past?
 
How do we wind up with a President where the most influential people in his life have been communists, anarchists, extremists, etc.?  Yet he would appear to have been pulled from central casting as he is the theoretically perfect candidate.  He's white, he's black, he's a minority, he's Christian, he's Muslim, he's socialist, he's communist, he's capitalist, he has African connections through his father, he has Indonesian and Muslim connections through his stepfather, he has communist connections through his mentor, he had radical/extremist connections through his friends, he has sex appeal with women, he has a sonorous and soothing voice, he speaks in white dialect, he speaks in black dialect, he's young, he's a family man, etc.  In short, a more perfect candidate could not be designed for appealing to and gaining acceptance with the broadest demographic possible.  How does he come from nowhere to become POTUS? 
 
Why is the middle class in the USA and Europe being decimated economically?  Why is the middle class in China and India rising?  Why do people ignore such books as Tragedy and Hope written by a world class historian who describes unequivocally the planned for and now being executed "leveling of the playing field globally" which is taking down the West while elevating the East?  Why would anyone want to "level the playing field"?  Why were nuclear secrets leaked to China?  Why was nuclear sub quiet propeller technology allowed to escape to China?  Why are Western industries providing China with access to so many of our technologies (including alloys, composites, electronics, computers, etc.) via industries that have gone over there for manufacturing and production purposes?  Why is Obama promoting nuclear disarmament when the Russians and Chinese are revamping their nuclear weapons and delivery systems?    
 
Why is American being dumbed down, via by our educational system, our entertainment system, our electronic entrainment system (i.e. TV and videos), and our food/medicine/chemical systems?  Why are we producing endless massage therapists, personal trainers, and life coaches while academic proficiency in math and science and practical skills in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics are languishing and declioning?  Why are we addicted to professional sports, reality TV, and scandalous news while being clueless about how to properly use our bodies, minds, and spirts to their optimum potential? 
 
Why are there social role reversals in which modern TV and movies depict a family in which the father is presented as an idiot devoid of intelligence and wisdom, the mother is presented as a somewhat lesser idiot but still a witless twit and an antagonist to, rather than partner with, her husband, the older child is smarter and wiser than both dim witted parents but dumber than the youngest child who is presented as the smartest of them all?  Why, in so many families, do both parents have to work to support their family (with the result that their children are less and less under their guidance and supervision)?  Why are there so many single moms in the country?  Why are so many single men failing to take responsibility for the children they father? 
 
Why is what is right being presented as wrong and what is wrong is being accepted as what is right?  Why has political correctness become king when, in fact, its origins are from the German Marxist movement of the 1930s, designed to de-stabilize societies just as the above noted social role depictions are just part of many actions designed to de-stabilize the family? 
 
Why is wealth increasingly flowing largely to the top creating the greatest income inequality in history?  Why are small businesses being regulated out of competitiveness and profitability?  Why
 
Why are the SEC and CFTC failing to bring any criminal prosecutions of significance against any firms or individuals of highly connected standing but only levy civil fines that are but a fraction of the profits made by those firms or individuals, thereby creating no incentive to prevent the repetition and proliferation of such behavior.
 
Why has there been no audit of the gold in Fort Knox or West Point?  Why are we given the impression that the Federal Reserve is under the control of the government when the president picks the chairperson of the Fed from a slate of candidates presented by ... the Fed (somewhat akin to the German people having a choice between Hitler, Himmler, Goering, Goebbels, and Borman)?
 
Why did we have Obamacare thrust upon us?  Why are there 2,000 pages to the document that include numerous subjects having little to do with healthcare but much to do with increased control and regulation and wealth extraction from the populace?  Why did we have to pass it before we learned what was in it?  And why are individuals who couldn't afford insurance in the first place (or just didn't want to buy it), now being forced to or forced to pay a fine instead?  And why is the IRS enforcing these laws but these expenses and fines are not considered a tax?  Why can we afford thousands of new IRS agents but it's hard to get money for education or other needed services?  
 
Why do we have HIPAA, allegedly for health record privacy, when those records were previously locked securely in a health care practitioners office, but now, with mandatory electronic medical records, can be accessed by anyone with a computer, from your government to a hacker?  Why do we have electronic medical records that your government wants access to and will be able to access, without your consent?  And why are you asked on your medical records whether you have a gun in your house?
 
Why are tactical semi-automatic rifles and large capacity magazines a particular problem?  An AR-15 can put 30 projectiles down range in about 10 secs but a 9 round semi-automatic shotgun with #4 buckshot can put 189 projectiles downrange in about 3 seconds?  Shouldn't we ban shotguns?  And shouldn't we ban 10 round magazines since they can be swapped out quickly enough to closely match a 30 round magazine in firepower?  What about bolt action centerfire rifles?  Aren't they "high powered" and accurate?  Aren't they a sniper rifle?  Don't we want to ban them too?
 
Why is DHS planning on putting up 30,000 drones?  Why are they buying over a billion rounds of civilian caliber, non-target (i.e. hollowpoint), handgun rounds?  Why are they buying bullet resistant checkpoint booths?  Why are checkpoints along roads being set up many miles from the borders?  Why are VIPER teams being deployed at railroad stations, bus stations, ferries, car tunnels, ports, subways, truck weight stations, rest, areas, special events, etc?  Why is posse comitatus being violated with an Army brigade trained in domestic operations and practicing encircling a town and doing house-to-house searches?  Why are military drills being held in cities all around the country which include firing blank rounds in the presence of large congregations of people?  Is it to desensitize the populace to an internal military presence as an unnamed military source within the DHS states?  Why were law abiding citizens disarmed during Hurricane Katrina?  Why were victims of SuperStorm Sandy required to evacuate their homes under threat of prosecution even when their homes were intact (such as happened to my sister)?
 
Why have we shifted emphasis from foreign to so-called "domestic" terrorists?  Why is a veteran or military serviceperson, who speaks of freedom and liberty, who owns firearms, who owns constitutional money in the form of gold and silver, etc., considered a potential domestic terrorist threat when such individuals used to be called "patriots"? 
 
Why are Google searches and Facebook personal information and social networks being tracked and stored, in perpetuity?  Why are your phone calls, text messages, and e-mails being monitored, read, and stored without your consent or court order?  Why are law abiding citizens increasingly under surveillance from satellites, Google earth, intrusive census takers, security cameras, red light cameras, etc?
 
What are so many on anti-depressant medications? Why is it so important that we not experience negative emotions that are entirely appropriate to a negative situation?   Why must we be optimistic rather than realistic?  Why is there such an imperative to put a positive spin on such things as the economy that are overtly negative?  Why is it so important to squelch disagreement with an agenda of political correctness with terms like "hater", "racist", "fear-monger", etc., terms which have lost all meaning because of being applied to everything and anything that may create dissent with the desired direction towards which public perception is being steered.  Why is anger eschewed and linked with fear?  Could it be that TPTB fear justifiable righteous anger which is not based on fear but on the desire for opportunity, prosperity, justice, truth, and liberty?
 
Are these circumstances just coincidences or is there a pattern here?  Is it just an illusion that every sign points to a growing imperialist, neo-feudalistic, inverted totalarianism developing in this country with a breakdown of the moral, social, political, and economic fabric of this nation but it all is presented as business as normal? 
 
Is it because the majority of the population is uninformed, ignorant, lazy, overwhelmed, uninterested, too busy, complacent, or just plain stupid?  Certainly, we see many examples of each of these.  Or is it because they are hypnotized?  
Who knows?  But before you poo poo it, do you understand the difference between trance induced hypnosis and conversation induced hypnosis?  I do.  And I've seen the latter in action at a national seminar.  The amazing thing was, only myself and one other person even recognized that it was occurring.  It was one of the most amazing things I've ever witnessed and if I hadn't seen it myself, I would have been a serious skeptic.  And it's very interesting that those who think they are most resistant to this influence are often those who are most under its spell. 
 
As a bonus, here are the latest DHS posters for firearms training.  Desensitization anyone?
 
No-More-Hesitation-Little-Boy-Real-Gun.j
 
No-More-Hesitation-Older-Man-Shotgun.jpg
 
DHS posters
 
No-More-Hesitation-Pregnant-Woman.jpg
 
No-More-Hesitation-Young-Mother-Playgrou
Montana Native's picture
Montana Native
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Mar 17 2009
Posts: 142
Coming to America

I think it’s great that the USA uses drones both foreign and domestically. We must be absolutely safe at all times. Here is a great old article from Kucinich.... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-dennis-kucinich/drones-direct-hit-upon-ru_b_929203.html The second paragraph is absolutely paramount! This horse shit is just getting started. Predator drones have already been used domestically at the request of local Barney Fifes. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2073248/Local-cops-used-Predator-drone-arrest-North-Dakota-farm-family-stealing-6-cows.html This increasing militarization of our local police is likely more dangerous than almost anyone would suspect.

Oh, there is finally a little mass media drone coverage because Obama is trying to nominate a new CIA chief. CIA runs the drone program, not the military. There won’t be any real coverage or any tough questions in the Corporate Media though. Just ask Cenk Uyger....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSXpjfzFCnM .Remember Cenk had to leave MSNBC because he wasn’t an ass kissing sycophant. http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/22/rejecting_lucrative_offer_cenk_uygur_leaves  Anyone with a decent pair of cojones is jettisoned from primetime pronto. Classic case.....http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/02/the-5-minute-speech-which-got-judge-napolitano-fired-from-fox-news.html 

That old lunatic Ron Paul had a great little ditty on the Drones this week. http://original.antiwar.com/paul/2013/02/18/the-drone-threat/  Note that the new CIA nominee Brennan won’t rule out the use of drone strikes for US Citizens on US soil. http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/02/19/pers-f19.html The whole thing is Orwellian and in all honesty makes me increasingly wonder how prescient Lucas was with his story of a democratic republic that becomes an empire. Perhaps, historically that is just the nature of the beast, the natural progression of things.

 There are going to be all kinds of drones everywhere in just a matter of years. http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/03/unmanned-flight/horgan-text Maybe Orwell’s prophetic words will be realized one day... It was terribly dangerous to let your thoughts wander when you were in any public place or within range of a telescreen. The smallest thing could give you away. A nervous tic, an unconscious look of anxiety, a habit of muttering to yourself—anything that carried with it the suggestion of abnormality, of having something to hide. In any case, to wear an improper expression on your face ... was itself a punishable offense. There was even a word for it in Newspeak: facecrime ...”. 

But then again, we are at war right? I’m pretty sure the final battle is going to be the destruction of personal liberty and privacy for American citizens. There is some hope out there though...http://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo/2013/02/08/washington-state-residents-say-no-to-police-surveillance-drones/ . It’s all fun and games as long as we are surveilling and bombing brown people in mud huts. http://www.salon.com/2012/07/10/bravery_and_drone_pilots/ Not so sure it will be as fun when it’s coming to America. Grab a drink and enjoy this classic....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IYJoOcWIMM 

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Grover
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Posts: 507
Formations of trances

ao,

I read your missive last night just before going to bed - big mistake on my part. I've wondered about many of those questions myself. You brought up several things I hadn't considered. While staring at the ceiling in the dark, I tried to answer your basic question - WHY. When thoughts bothers me like this, I try to let my mind wander. It usually ends up back at the same problem, but it allows me to approach it from another vantage point. It is hard to pin the beginning down to a particular time or event. It seems that every event always has some twist on a prior event.

As an analogy, the country used to contain untouched, broad, fruited plains. We discovered the riches and cut the trees for lumber to build dwellings. We cleared other vegetation to grow cash crops that stripped the native fertility from the soil. When the exhausted soil would no longer produce, we left the barren landscape to slash another virgin area.

Without the protective plant cover, rain would turn the lifeless soil to mud and carry it downhill. Small rills would get deeper and collect more flowing mud to form gullies and then ravines. All the while, more wasting occurs with each rainstorm. Eventually, the fruited plain becomes a ravaged bad lands. It can still be reclaimed, but at higher cost as time progresses.

Using this analogy, it is easy to see the near constant erosion of values and responsibilities punctuated by isolated intense mass wasting (landslides.) The big events that you focused upon are the ones that are forged in our memories, but it is the mostly unnoticed daily events that set the stage.

I see the formation of the federal reserve as the major modern event that catapulted our society into the morass. Before that, government was limited by honest money. After that, the consequences of government spending (taxes) could be delayed. Moneyed interests quickly learned that they could "invest" in politicians and receive bounteous legislative rewards (loopholes.) Legislators learned that they could easily buy elections by dispersing unpaid economic rewards on voters. The voters learned that someone else is always there to pick up the tab for their lucre.

Politicians who win under this guise are rightfully paranoid of being discovered. Innovations in electronics have allowed them to track increasing levels of details and have it quickly analyzed. As you noted, all electronic communications are captured, analyzed, and digitally kept in perpetuity. (This thread will likely be recorded hundreds of times.) They identify problem areas and maneuver to take advantage of the knowledge.

As long as they give the people bread and circuses, the masses remain compliant. We're fed an unending diet of sports and entertainment (as if any of that really matters) to keep us from focusing on important events. We're constantly told that we're #1 and deserve the rest of the world's tribute. We've migrated obtusely opposite of what made this country great.

Dishonest money set the stage and the unscrupulous took advantage. I used to think there was a way to fix the system. Until paper money's highest-and-best-use is for cleaning up naturally soiled rear ends, the system cannot be fixed.

Grover

PS You should be very careful about mentioning problems with the offishul logging of events that occurred between 9/10/2001 and 9/12/2001 (noninclusive) or you will be branded as a wacko conspiracy theorist. There are plenty of websites that focus on the inconsistencies for those so inclined to investigate. The hypnotized masses who actually believe the offishul story are trained to cast you and all your arguments into intellectual purgatory. (Just a word of warning from one of purgatory's inhabitants.)

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Grover
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Posts: 507
Tips from the real experts for avoiding drones

Here is a listing of 22 ways to avoid drones. The list was discovered in Mali in an abandoned building once occupied by Islamists.

Grover

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/9886673/Al-Qaedas-22-tips-for-dodging-drone-attacks-the-list-in-full.html

ao's picture
ao
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Posts: 2220
i couldn't agree more

Grover wrote:

ao,

I read your missive last night just before going to bed - big mistake on my part. I've wondered about many of those questions myself. You brought up several things I hadn't considered. While staring at the ceiling in the dark, I tried to answer your basic question - WHY. When thoughts bothers me like this, I try to let my mind wander. It usually ends up back at the same problem, but it allows me to approach it from another vantage point. It is hard to pin the beginning down to a particular time or event. It seems that every event always has some twist on a prior event.

As an analogy, the country used to contain untouched, broad, fruited plains. We discovered the riches and cut the trees for lumber to build dwellings. We cleared other vegetation to grow cash crops that stripped the native fertility from the soil. When the exhausted soil would no longer produce, we left the barren landscape to slash another virgin area.

Without the protective plant cover, rain would turn the lifeless soil to mud and carry it downhill. Small rills would get deeper and collect more flowing mud to form gullies and then ravines. All the while, more wasting occurs with each rainstorm. Eventually, the fruited plain becomes a ravaged bad lands. It can still be reclaimed, but at higher cost as time progresses.

Using this analogy, it is easy to see the near constant erosion of values and responsibilities punctuated by isolated intense mass wasting (landslides.) The big events that you focused upon are the ones that are forged in our memories, but it is the mostly unnoticed daily events that set the stage.

I see the formation of the federal reserve as the major modern event that catapulted our society into the morass. Before that, government was limited by honest money. After that, the consequences of government spending (taxes) could be delayed. Moneyed interests quickly learned that they could "invest" in politicians and receive bounteous legislative rewards (loopholes.) Legislators learned that they could easily buy elections by dispersing unpaid economic rewards on voters. The voters learned that someone else is always there to pick up the tab for their lucre.

Politicians who win under this guise are rightfully paranoid of being discovered. Innovations in electronics have allowed them to track increasing levels of details and have it quickly analyzed. As you noted, all electronic communications are captured, analyzed, and digitally kept in perpetuity. (This thread will likely be recorded hundreds of times.) They identify problem areas and maneuver to take advantage of the knowledge.

As long as they give the people bread and circuses, the masses remain compliant. We're fed an unending diet of sports and entertainment (as if any of that really matters) to keep us from focusing on important events. We're constantly told that we're #1 and deserve the rest of the world's tribute. We've migrated obtusely opposite of what made this country great.

Dishonest money set the stage and the unscrupulous took advantage. I used to think there was a way to fix the system. Until paper money's highest-and-best-use is for cleaning up naturally soiled rear ends, the system cannot be fixed.

Grover

PS You should be very careful about mentioning problems with the offishul logging of events that occurred between 9/10/2001 and 9/12/2001 (noninclusive) or you will be branded as a wacko conspiracy theorist. There are plenty of websites that focus on the inconsistencies for those so inclined to investigate. The hypnotized masses who actually believe the offishul story are trained to cast you and all your arguments into intellectual purgatory. (Just a word of warning from one of purgatory's inhabitants.)

Grover,

Sorry to keep you up at night, lol.  I experience the same thing myself.  My wife says, "ao, go to bed".  It's not worry that keeps me up but the stimulation of my mind from the intense interest in what is unfolding.  This is history in the making of an unprecedented global magnitude.

I agree with you about the formation of the Fed.  There have always been problems of this nature but for this country, that particular event would appear to be one of the most important, if not THE most important.  And your analogy and description of our situation is, for me at least, right on.  

Regarding your P.S., you forgot batsh*t crazy, tin foil hat wearing, wacko conspiracy theorist, lol.  I appreciate your concern and the warning but for me, knowing and regularly observing how the whole disinformation/misinformation gambit works, that title would almost be a badge of honor.  It is fascinating to see that process in operation and then realize, in talking to folks in person, how few perceive it.  We are truly programmed, indoctrinated, conditioned, hypnotized, or whatever else one would want to call it.  Thre is the "blindness" of stupidity (about which not a lot can be done), the "blindness" of ignorance (which can be overcome with education), the "blindness" of this programming (which can be overcome with awareness), and spiritual "blindness" as well (which goes beyond the bounds of acceptable discussion here).  But to paraphrase G. Edward Griffin, there's hardly a significant or pivotal adverse event in history that wasn't a conspiracy, at least according to Webster's definition.  Nevertheless, I always remain open to assessing new information and new evidence and reserve the right to change my mind and perceptual framework based on what I learn, IF someone can provide me with facts that are compelling enough.  That's happened to me before and it will most likely happen again.  Strabes, for example, whose work Logan's Run brought to the forefront, is one such person who opened my eyes.  DrKrbyLuv was another.  And at the other end of the spectrum, although we had our disagreements, I'd even give credit to Vanity Fox as well for enlightening me in certain areas, even though we vigorously disagreed in other areas. 

P.S. Have folks noticed that posters like Dogs and JAG are no longer around?  Two more good folks who have moved on to other pastures.  I miss them.

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ao
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Posts: 2220
upon request

Stories that deserve to be known.

tumblr_mbahdi4WWP1qeu6ilo1_400.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Scholl

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer

Thoughts Are Free

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Gedanken_sind_frei

Die Gedanken sind frei, wer kann sie erraten,
sie fliegen vorbei wie nächtliche Schatten.
Kein Mensch kann sie wissen, kein Jäger erschießen
mit Pulver und Blei: Die Gedanken sind frei!

Ich denke was ich will und was mich beglücket,
doch alles in der Still', und wie es sich schicket.
Mein Wunsch und Begehren kann niemand verwehren,
es bleibet dabei: Die Gedanken sind frei!

Und sperrt man mich ein im finsteren Kerker,
das alles sind rein vergebliche Werke.
Denn meine Gedanken zerreißen die Schranken
und Mauern entzwei: Die Gedanken sind frei!

Drum will ich auf immer den Sorgen absagen
und will mich auch nimmer mit Grillen mehr plagen.
Man kann ja im Herzen stets lachen und scherzen
und denken dabei: Die Gedanken sind frei!

Ich liebe den Wein, mein Mädchen vor allen,
sie tut mir allein am besten gefallen.
Ich sitz nicht alleine bei einem Glas Weine,
mein Mädchen dabei: Die Gedanken sind frei!

     

Thoughts are free, who can guess them?
They flee by like nocturnal shadows.
No man can know them, no hunter can shoot them
with powder and lead: Thoughts are free!

I think what I want, and what delights me,
still always reticent, and as it is suitable.
My wish and desire, no one can deny me
and so it will always be: Thoughts are free!

And if I am thrown into the darkest dungeon,
all this would be futile work,
because my thoughts tear all gates
and walls apart: Thoughts are free!

So I will renounce my sorrows forever,
and never again will torture myself with whimsies.
In one's heart, one can always laugh and joke
and think at the same time: Thoughts are free!

I love wine, and my girl even more,
Only her I like best of all.
I'm not alone with my glass of wine,
my girl is with me: Thoughts are free!

Or the English version variant.

ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 4 2009
Posts: 2220
hacker attacks and truth

In addition to recent hacker attacks on Chris Duane's site, SGTReport, and King World News, Greg Hunter's USA Watchdog site has also recently been attacked.

http://usawatchdog.com/usawatchdog-com-is-back/

Given the nature of the content of each of these sites, it's obvious that TPTB do not like to see the exercise of the First Amendment and the proclamation of the truth. 

Keep spreading the word.  There is power in numbers and in truth. 

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KathyP
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Posts: 79
Heavy Burden

ao,

Thank you for reposting.  The knowledge and understandings expressed by this group's members constitute a heavy burden indeed.  Little wonder many of us share interrupted sleep.

“The real damage is done by those millions who want to 'get by.'   The ordinary men who just want to be left in peace. Those who don’t want their lives disturbed by anything bigger than themselves. Those with no sides and no causes. Those who won’t take measure of their own strength, for fear of antagonizing their own weakness. Those who don’t like to make waves—or enemies.

This quote especially haunts me as I conduct my own resilience building. My conscience is in an uproar.

I have a "prepper" neighbor (self-described ardent Libertarian) who expresses the "get by" sentiment overtly.  I always feel slightly nauseated when he does so.  But, am I covertly subscribing this this as well?  Another neighbor expressed approval of some police brutality he and his wife witnessed when they were traveling in Arizona.  The recipient of the brutal treatment was an Hispanic man.  His wife actually said that the incident made her feel safe.  Dear Jesus, is this what we've become?

Jesse posted on Sophie Scholl today, too.  http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2013/02/on-anniversary-of-death...

I keep going back to my first comment on this thread, to the question, can there be peak prosperity in the context of the destruction of civil liberties?  We are all engaged in preparing for a "different" future.  I wonder how many of us have considered how "different" that future may be.

Kathy

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John Lemieux
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Posts: 223
Nausea and Heavy Burdens

Thank you to the persons who posted writings of Sophie Scholl. And for the related links. I had never heard of this very special and couragous person.

And when I hear her words and the words of people like Chris Hedges, I also begin to "wonder how many of us have considered how "different" that future may be."

It is these kinds of people that promt me to think more deeply about doing what I believe is the right thing for the right reason. Especially if our current systems do fail and I see a lot of injustices and suffering around me. This is what I mostly think about rather than positioning myself smartly for a new era of "Peak Prosperity". Or by putting my resources and efforts into becoming a "prepper".

Although I do wonder if I would  be thinking more in terms of personal prosperity and safety if I had a family to care for and to try and protect. Or even if I lived in the US.

But I certainly do think it is only wise to become more informed about how we can make changes in our lives to attempt to become less vunerable to possible financial and other hardship. And personal harm.

But I now hesitate to recommending this site. Not because of the content here (although we do seem to be overly focused on PM's and financial matters in IMO), but because the first impression people get coming here is that it is about  capitalizing on the crises. Or about guns and prepping. I have tried several times to steer some young folks to PP because I was aware of what I believe to be valid concerns about thier future. And that to them "things seem to be getting scary".

But none have explored the site. And instead they sometimes choose to stop discussing their concerns for the future after I suggest PP. I think that's unfortunate. But I can't blame them as I would have gotten the same first impression had I not discovered this site just before the name change.

So from now on I just recommend the Crash Course book. And I suggest they read a broad range of other books.  I often mention Chris Hedges and Paul Chefurska to get a broader explanation of our social, political and environmental issues.

Grover's picture
Grover
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Joined: Feb 16 2011
Posts: 507
Your diatribe was inspiring

ao wrote:

Sorry to keep you up at night, lol.  I experience the same thing myself.  My wife says, "ao, go to bed".  It's not worry that keeps me up but the stimulation of my mind from the intense interest in what is unfolding.  This is history in the making of an unprecedented global magnitude.

<... snip ...>

Regarding your P.S., you forgot batsh*t crazy, tin foil hat wearing, wacko conspiracy theorist, lol.  I appreciate your concern and the warning but for me, knowing and regularly observing how the whole disinformation/misinformation gambit works, that title would almost be a badge of honor.

I agree. Your intellectual stimulation is very welcome. I'm always intrigued when someone can phrase things I know in a way that makes me think. You did very well. Thankyou! I finally was able to sleep after I put your prose into my terms and visuals. I felt compelled to share.

I can't agree more with your assessment that the events are historical on a global basis. When I tried to talk of these things with my friends and coworkers, they would participate and engage until I crossed one of their sacred lines. In general, the hypnosis and its text that you described has become the script of official belief. Whenever I purposefully crossed these lines, I could see a change in attitude. My friends would withdraw from conversation.

Now, that drones are in the public limelight, I can once again talk about drones being piloted from afar. I ask friends if this technology advanced out of nowhere in the last dozen years or if a nascent version would have been available in 2001. Who has the most advanced technology now? - The US government via the military. If it were available in 2001, who likely would have had the most advanced technology? Likely, the US government.

I read (somewhere) that the 9/11 conspiracy theories can be boiled down to 4 levels:

Level 0 - no conspiracy. The hijackers coincidentally showed up at different airports and spontaneously decided to hijack 4 separate airliners and fly them into 4 separate targets. (I'm sure some can see this occurring.)

Level 1 - The hijackers were able to conspire for over a year on US soil to do the dastardly deeds without any notice from the US government. (Why did we bother spending $trillions over the years to fund various spy agencies if they end up being this incompetent?)

Level 2 - The hijackers were able to conspire and plan, but several agencies had collected information. One agency knew who was involved, but not what they were doing. One knew when it was to happen, but didn't know where or how. One knew how, but not when ... (This is the tact the US government has settled on supporting. Our agencies needed to coordinate in order to share information; therefore, we're saddled with the most intrusive agency to date - homeland security.)

Level 3 - The hijackers were able to plan and conspire for over a year. Our agencies captured the information and appropriately funneled the information to the very top - Dick Cheney. He knew that America would be incensed at the act and would respond by insisting that we address the perpetrators. Rather than stop the carnage, he would allow it to occur and then be prepared to prosecute a war. (He would have a clear public conscience and still be able to reward his buddies at Halliburton, Lockheed, Boeing, etc. It would be good for the economy and instill a self-righteous indignation for America.)

Level 4 - Information was poring from all spy agencies that the hijackers were planning to fly planes into targets in September, 2001. From various reports, the pilots couldn't land a Cessna airplane. How could they fly multi-engine jets at extremely high speeds into very narrow targets? (Cheney decided that our economy needed the boost that war provides. He knew these idiots couldn't accomplish their intended mission so he made sure they would be able to and get full credit for accomplishing said tasks. He had remote control (drone piloting) equipment installed on the airliners that had confirmed pre-purchased tickets from alleged hijackers. He set up training scenarios for the DOD where an errant plane flew into a high rise building in NY on that day. [What are the odds????] He had the buildings wired so they would spectacularly collapse within their footprints. And then he had W. follow through on all the "war on terror" government take overs.) [I'm taking liberties with scenarios here. These things DID happen.]

The story that most Americans believe is that we were duped because we were too good (Level 2.) "We need to wake up and accept our god ordained role." We need to patrol the seas and the skies to keep evil from getting a foothold. It has been spectaculary successful for the "terror industries." It has allowed us to spend nearly half the world's military expenses. Given all the other problems, what other reason can we use to explain such extravagances? It justifies QE∞.

Most of all, I'm amazed at the compliance. Ask an average American - "What is the best country in the world?" and they'll respond that America is. (It will probably sound like "Murka!") They can't tell you who is #2. They carry cell phones that can be tracked legally without court permission and contribute to facebook where their social maps are actively tracked. They continue the debt game and think that media has their best interests in mind. They are actually comfortable that the gummint has drones patrolling. What fools.

I can't see any positive outcome to our situation. We are a land of the sheeple. It will continue to get worse until it can't.

Grover

PS - I expect this posting to be flagged and removed due to its provocative content. I'm saving it on my computer and will send it via PM if it is removed. I hope everyone can derisively laugh at me after reading this PS because I'm so paranoid. If it hadn't happened before on this site, I wouldn't append this addendum. I know the rules, but this is important. Please do not flag it.

ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Feb 4 2009
Posts: 2220
Grover, Thanks for your

Grover,

Thanks for your reply.  I, for one, am not laughing at yours.  I don't know precisely what the truth is but I agree with you that the official story is not the truth just as the Warren Commission report on the JFK assassination was not the truth (a point of view that was later vindicated although we still don't know the whole truth of that matter either).  I do know that I love this country and what it is supposed to stand for but I don't like what it is becoming and where it is going.  And I will speak out about it (as you have) whenever and whenever people will listen.  We owe it to those who came before us and those who will come after. 

P.S. I'm going to include a (modified by me) quote that a friend just sent that speaks to our situation.

"We now live in a nation where (some, to some extent, and by some of their actions) doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the press destroys information, religion destroys morals, and the banks destroy our economy.

It's interesting that just before I came on to PP today, I was listening to this ... over and over.

ao's picture
ao
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
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Posts: 2220
purely theoretical

Let me express two other potential concerns regarding drones.

First is the possibility of a foreign power, via cyber warfare, taking control of our own drone structure and using it against us.  This action would be impossible with piloted aircraft but not with drones.

Second is the possibility of our own government using them against us in an attack role if insurrection would arise, possibly with control outsourced either to mercenaries or another nation's military who would not be as reluctant as our own military or police to act against the citizenry.

Far fetched and improbable, yes.  Impossible, no.

Thirteen years ago I would have called what is happening now far fetched and improbable, if not impossible.

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gillbilly
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Joined: Oct 22 2012
Posts: 377
A.M., Drone Letter first draft...

Aaron, is there anything I should add?

Dear                  ,

I am writing to you in regard to the U.S. government’s use of domestic drones. It is of great concern to me that our government is moving in the direction of allowing the widespread use of drones within U.S. airspace.  A ban on the use of military drones abroad has already been suggested by members of congress, and I would like to reiterate the sentiments of the letter that those 26 members of congress sent to President Obama:

“The implications of the use of drones for our national security are profound. They are faceless ambassadors that cause civilian deaths, and are frequently the only direct contact with Americans that the targeted communities have. They can generate powerful and enduring anti-American sentiment.”

I share these concerns and would like to encourage you to call for a ban on the use of domestic drones as well. If a ban does not look like it would be politically feasible, then I would agree with the ACLU’s recommendations as an alternative:

USAGE LIMITS: Drones should be deployed by law enforcement only with a warrant, in an emergency, or when there are specific and articulable grounds to believe that the drone will collect evidence relating to a specific criminal act.

DATA RETENTION: Images should be retained only when there is reasonable suspicion that they contain evidence of a crime or are relevant to an ongoing investigation or trial.

POLICY: Usage policy on domestic drones should be decided by the public’s representatives, not by police departments, and the policies should be clear, written, and open to the public.

ABUSE PREVENTION & ACCOUNTABILITY: Use of domestic drones should be subject to open audits and proper oversight to prevent misuse.

WEAPONS: Domestic drones should not be equipped with lethal or non-lethal weapons.

Please act now since the use of this technology will significantly move this country in the direction of a total “surveillance society.” 

Thank you for your immediate attention in this matter.

A. M.'s picture
A. M.
Status: Diamond Member (Online)
Joined: Oct 22 2008
Posts: 2297
Draft Letter

Gillbilly,

That's very well written - I haven't any suggestions to improve upon it. 
Drones are offensive aircraft, regardless of what anyone says, and should be relegated to the same status as F15's or B26's. There's no reason to apply such invasive technology against a citizen populace with a legal system designed to address criminal offense. 

Thank you for taking this step! I really hope that you receive some favorable responses.
Cheers,

Aaron

Jim H's picture
Jim H
Status: Diamond Member (Online)
Joined: Jun 8 2009
Posts: 1464
AO

You said,

Second is the possibility of our own government using them against us in an attack role if insurrection would arise,

This is a very real concern.  In case anyone has not been following the articles about huge DHS ammo orders, and now this;

http://sgtreport.com/2013/02/how-much-more-evidence-do-you-need-dhs-trai...

I offer you a small but very important anecdotal;  I had dinner with a friend who is an accountant over the weekend.  One of his clients is a police officer.. and the officer told my friend that he was being trained to shoot civilians.  My friend said that the officer seemed like he wanted to get this off his chest.. that he stated his desire to retire as soon as he could and get away from this.  

My friend, who I have been talking to for years about the endgame.. has finally been awakened fully.  He is mad as hell, and scared as hell.  And this is how it happens.. .virally.  There is no other way.  You can't shove this stuff down someone's throat. 

A. M.'s picture
A. M.
Status: Diamond Member (Online)
Joined: Oct 22 2008
Posts: 2297
Regarding the "endgame"

I'd like to remind people that the 'government' is citizens with the exception of a very limited number of agents, elected officials and military leaders. 

An attack against the U.S. Citizenry would put an irreparable rift in our military, as it would constitute (at minimum) an order in conflict with Congressional mandates and the UCMJ. America is extremely well armed, has 10 years worth of hardened combat veterans, many of which have extremely strong beliefs in our bill of rights and liberty, and who're similarly tired of being labeled as terrorists for questioning authority that demands we betray our oath.

The elements driving our political and economic world right now have been trying and failing for a long time to reign in their perfect society, but I have a feeling that they've already gotten as close as possible with the American experiment, and now its time is nearing an end.

Spend time being concerned, but not worried. 
Behind those drones are people. Have faith, and don't succumb to the "us and them" mentality with our nations soldiers and law enforcement. We're on the same side, and the local LE across the nation's outcry against Obama's draconian policies as of late should validate that.

Cheers,

Aaron

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