"Best" combat rifle recommendations

sand_puppy
By sand_puppy on Wed, Dec 19, 2012 - 2:18pm

Prior to the closure of the buying opportunity for combat rifles, I wanted to ask this group for their specific recommendations for a high capacity, semi-automatic, not-too-heavy, reliable combat rifle and scope.  Please avoid "jargon" (phrases and abbreviations known to people in the gun scene that are unintelligible to those of us who are not).  Price for rifle needs to be < $2,000 with $1,200 or less much more palatable. A model with good availability of ammo, magazines, case, sling.  What scope would you put on this rifle for rapid target aquisition (a red dot sight has been recommended already)?

I find the hundreds of choices to be overwhelming and I need to narrow to a couple of specific models.  Please be very specific in recommendations, avoid technical jargon, custom products, rare models, and "general principles of buying a gun" type of advice.

Thanks for your help.

sand_puppy 

23 Comments

Doug's picture
Doug
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AR

I'm not making a recommendation of the "best" combat rifle, only describing a little of what I know about.  Windham Arms produces a number of configurations on the basic AR type gun, many designed to be compliant with various state requirements.  Windham is reputed to be a good manufacturer.  Lifetime warranty that goes with the rifle if you sell it.

http://www.windhamweaponry.com/content_rifles.asp

Among the features that I find interesting is an optional kit to convert to .22 LR.  The ammo is much cheaper and differences in performance for most range purposes is negligible.  It comes with a two point sling.  Scopes are dependent on personal preferences and cost.  I know of a $200 red spot scope.  MSRP is around $1,100 for stripped down model and you can add other features as budget allows.  High capacity mags are dependent on state laws.

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AR

I would second Doug's recommendation of Windham.. they are a small outfit in Maine made up mostly folks that used to make the Bushmaster rifles before that company was bought and consolidated elsewhere.  I am on a waiting list at my local FFL to get the next one he receives, which I hope will happen before Congress does whatever they are going to do in their efforts to unconstitutionally disarm us.  Although I have and heartily recommend HiPoint pistol caliber carbines in both 9mm and .45, I still feel the need to own a weapon that is more proficient beyond, say, 100 yards, and the pistol rounds are just not designed for this... hence my desire for the .223.  The Windham is just over $1000 for the model I want.

A second great choice is the S&W M&P 15 sport ... and it's super cheap.  Here is the Nutnfancy review;

A friend of mine who is a gun expert bought one in Nov. and he swears by it... $650!!!!   My local FFL has both Windhams and these S&W's on order... and I may just take whatever comes in first since I am that worried about being frozen out.  The other issue is ammo... it is getting very hard to find .223   I have bought many times from Bulkammo.com... they are out of stock on .223    Even though I don't have the rifle yet, I have started accruing some .223.. have some pretty expensive Hornady Zombie max on order since it was one of the few I could find.  Good luck Sandpuppy

A. M.'s picture
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Recommendation Hierarchy

All,

When looking for a fighting rifle, it's important to make a semi-prioritized list of needs:
1. What is the rifle's intended purpose?
2. Who will be using the rifle, and what is their level of fitness, physical limitations or experience with firearms?
3. Do any of the rifles I'm considering chamber a caliber that I already have? If not, how expensive are rounds for the rifles I'm considering? How available are they?

These are the most cursory questions, and the first you should ask yourself. Don't let someone sell you on a specific rifle, an idea, or accessory until you've analyzed these questions for yourself.

The next thing you want to do is create a short list of what recommendations 'fit' your criteria above. 
In this case, you're looking for a rifle built for fighting, so we know it's intended purpose. Next, if you've got any outlaying factors, start thinking on them.

Things such as:
- My friends all have _______ [rifle] in _______ [caliber]; commonality might be beneficial
- I've used _____ extensively and am comfortable with it.
- I have a hard time getting around, so something heavy is going to slow me down, and it will be harder to control, or conversely, I run several miles a day and am in good shape, so weight is less of an issue.
- I live in heavily wooded terrain/sparsely vegitated desert, so I have limited/extended ranges that I need to consider.
- I live in an urban environment where over-penetration of bullets is a concern (remember - you fire it, you're responsible for it).

Once you've given thought to the above, it's time to look at the criteria laid out in the Definitive Firearms Thread:

1. Reliability - will the weapon function reliably? If so, in what conditions?

2. Durability - Does this weapon have a reputation for being "tough"?

3. Availability - Are there magazines, spare parts and ammo available for the weapon?

4. Commonality - Does this weapon share common parts or ammo with my other weapons?

5. Ergonomics - Is this weapon easy to use, or do you have to work against it to get it to function?

Reliability, Durability and Ergonomics.
The most common recommendations (for good reason) are the AR-15 and the AK variant rifle.

The AR-15 is a 'catch all' phrase, similar to 'truck'. There are many makes and models of trucks, with different engines and purposes. The most common offering is the "Carbine" or M4, in 5.56mm, and if you consider an AR-15, this is, in my opinion, the most versitile offering. I'd feel comfortable with a Colt, Smith and Wesson, Bushmaster, BCM, Lewis Machine and Tool, or Daniel Defense rifle. 

The AK is similarly a "family" of rifles that are comprised of a variety of calibers and configurations. I recommend the AK103 variant (commonly sold as the SLR107F, through Arsenal, Inc.)
The 7.62x39 cartridge is more common and has more domestic support in the U.S. than the 5.45x39, and the 5.56mm AK's require the receivers to be changed. Also, the taper on the 5.56mm is makes the cartridges more difficult to extract. In short, your reliability will be lessened in an AK firing a 5.56mm.

There are more decent choices; the FN-FAL and the M1A, most notably, but the AR and AK are the "gold standard" in rifles across the world. 

Please train responsibly and keep positive control over your firearms. 
Cheers,
Aaron
 

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Windham, definitely...

...my absolute preference as the all purpose weapon however is 12GA. pump action Mossberg ($350 ish). Point and Kaboom, clears a hallway and everyone in it should it come to that. Recoil is non-existent so from the shoulder to your hips, drop down or through your legs it's a can't miss. Blows a nice hole through a wall and that must be factored in a home invasion. Case is $45 bucks. Then ammo and that isn't pricey. 

Hunting: Point and shoot (slug) and no deer stands from 50/100 yards and frankly that's enough in any take down. Rarely do you have to get the long shot off. Bird hunting and you have the perfect weapon for sport and protection. Squeeze a round off (freebee) and most crooks will drop a load as they flee your home. Win, Win

Personally (non-hunting), aim and shoot don't work for me, I just want my weapon to do its business, and I don't want to sight anything in as I need to bear some serious power down line and quick. Shot gun is the very best weapon in most all situations.

At your price range you get the shot gun ($350-$450) and a nice Colt 45cal steel, don't get composite as it feels better in your hand and no recoil ($750-$950). You have all you need plus all the bells and whistles. Don't get a laser scope for the 45cal as I think it's a waste of money. If you need to use your weapon you want a tick, tick, tick firing rhythm are my thoughts, and not worry about whether the laser is on target. Just practice by renting at the range, most ranges will rent (10 bucks to rent a 45, 357 plus ammo $25-$35) and you figure it all out, and a nice stock of ammunition's again for your price range. My guess you will never have to fire your weapon on another human being. Some here probably don't agree with me but I'm right so consider practicality, and practice to know your weapon. It's fun. 

My $.02 cents for what it's worth, and probably more information than you wanted.

BOB

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shotguns...

Hi Bob... I agree with you.. although I did not state it in my earlier post, I do own Mossbergs in 12G and 20G.. the idea behind the 20G being that the girls are more comfortable with it.  Although my guns are double locked down all of the time now, in a SHTF situation, it is my Mossberg 12G Thunder Ranch edition that I will have under the bed, at the ready.  The thing I like about the Thunder Ranch is the short runs of picatinny rail on the pump, which allows for a good flashlight to be mounted - with a flick of my finger I can either turn it on, or flash it on momentarily, using the spring loaded toggle on end of the flashlight - very natural with a little training.               

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Windham Weaponry's AR-15 links

I'm guessing that I'm not the only person considering purchasing some firepower as the world is seems to drift towards instability.  Here are the links to some of the armament recommended by PP users.    Here is a loose and very brief summary of what I have been learning.  The major families of rifles are the ARs and the AKs.

 

1.  The Windham Weaponry's AR-15 M4 Carbine (Thanks Doug):

http://www.windhamweaponry.com/pdf/UpdatedTechSheets/CDI%2011-9-12%20MSRP.pdf

This is their top-of-the-line AR-15 type rifle model and a cool sight to go on it.

http://www.windhamweaponry.com/shopexd.asp?id=239

In general, the AR-15 type guns are more expensive than the AKs ($1,200 - $2,400) and fire the 5.56 cartridge which is lighter, plentiful in the US, less noisy, less recoil, and more accurate at longer distances (300 - 400 yards).  AR-15s must be cleaned very well and regularly to function reliably. 

2.   The AK47-type of rifle that Aaron recommends as his "first choice" fighting rifle for an emergency.  His favorite model is made by Arsenal Arms (in 7.62x39 cartridge) called the SLR-107F.  This powerful cartridge (the 7.62x39) will penetrate concrete and bricks and can be used for hunting game.  This cartridge is inexpensive, heavier to carry in quantity, but readily available.  Accuracy is very good under 100 - 200 yards (typical of urban, suburban and wooded settings.)  AKs cost $600 - $1,400.  Are very reliable even when not cleaned well.  Can be cleaned with rag soaked in gasoline and lubed with motor oil in a pinch.

http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/SLR-107F.html

 

3.  Here is the "Thunder Ranch Edition" of the Mossberg 12 gauge pump-action shotgun mentioned by Jim H (and Bob).  The "Thunder Ranch Edition" is slightly shortened version to make it easier to maneuver in a home and has rails to attach a flash light.  A shotgun is a powerful short-range weapon (for inside your house and yard).  "A shotgun is the ultimate weapon inside 50 yards."  For smaller people, a 20 gauge shotgun is available with less noise and recoil.

http://www.thunderranchinc.com/A_trguns.html

 

4.  And a Glock-like plastic pistol (called a SIRT) that "shoots" a laser light burst so that you can practice with a handgun at home in your pajamas shooting at little targets, (such as beany babies), lined up on the fireplace mantel (thanks joesxm2011): http://nextleveltraining.com/product_list 

 

Appreciate all of your help finding these resources and having a community of people who understand why this might become important in the days to come.  And a special thanks to Aaron who answered my detailed emails.

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Fulton Armory

I've had excellent luck with Fulton Armory when it comes to rifles in both 7.62 x 51 (.308) and 5.56mm.  Their fit and finish are the best I've come across (I own a lot of weapons!), and their accuracty out of the box is great.  

As Aaron pointed out, you really need to know the environment that you'll be dealing with while fighting.  If it's long range, I go with my .308 (or really long range one of my Weatherby's/300 or .338).  While if I'm dealing with wooded, nasty environment, your 7.62 x 39 is an excellent choice (as is a shotgun/easy to clean).

Bottom line, go with what you can shoot the best, and follow Aaron's advice...he knows what he's talking about better than anyone on this forum (in regards to weapons and fighting).

Good luck!

BTW:  Fulton Armory is closed for the holidays...always do this, so it's not because of the alleged massacre.

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LR

On what action is the .340 weatherby built? I've one on a BAT, I'm a former IBS shooter, action but am considering a repeater, 700 long action rem to duplicate a more efficient .338 lapua.

thanks, robie

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large capacity mags flying off the shelves

You better get some high capacity magazines quickly, if you haven't done so yet.  Interestingly enough, a few weeks ago, I decided to "top off" on high capacity mags for everything I own, including rifles and handguns.  I just had a strong feeling that I should do that.  Turns out, it was prescient.  Trust your intuiton.

Today, out of curiosity, I checked and hardly a 30 round AK mag can be found online.  Ditto with the AKs themselves.    

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some other thoughts

Gee, it's nice to be unspanked.  I can post again ...

With regards to the above comments, I agree with LR.  Aaron knows his cookies and gives some of the best advice out there on this subject.  I'd go with what he says.  He even converted me into adopting AKs into my armament fold and that's saying something.  BTW, thank you Aaron. 

I'd respetfully disagree with Jim and Bob about the Thunder Ranch shotgun.  It's overpriced for what you get.  Mossberg makes good, reliable pumps but you can pick up a simple used police model 500 for less than half that price with the same basic features or a better military grade one like the 590A1 with a larger capacity if you're interested in that price range.  If I'd spend more money, I'd get a semi-auto shotgun.  They're used in the military now, virtually as reliable as the pumps, can't be short stroked by accident, have less recoil for the ladies  (Bob, I don't know what Mossberg pump you're firing but mine still kick) without resorting to a 20 gauge (with ammo harder to find, no cheaper, and adds additional, unnecessary complexity to the equation), and can be operated with one hand (rapidly) if necessary (without the slower Sarah Connor one handed theatrics).  I use the FN SLPs (but I picked mine up before they became outrageously expensive) but a friend is pleased with his (later edition) Mossberg 930 (but from what I understand, some of the earlier 930s had problems).

If you choose an AR, I'd use a quality holographic sight like a nnight vision compatible EoTech with back-up flip-up iron (or heavy duty polymer) sights and, if you want, you can even add a flip-up magnifier.  That set-up is rugged, reliable, and has useful redundancy.  If have my ARs set-up that way.  With the AKs, I've kept them basic with the stock iron sights.  They're my pack 'em in cosmoline and bury 'em back-ups, if it ever comes to that.  With the ARs, I have both .308 (7.62x51 mm.) and 5.56 mm.  The guys get the .308s, the gals get the 5.56 mm.  I prefer the .308 (7.62x51) for its power, range, and legality if I want to hunt larger game like deer with it (but you'll need a small capacity 5 round magazine for legal hunting).  There's a reason many special ops groups used the M-14 (7.62x51) in Iraq and Afghanistan. It'll punch through masonry, steel, and other cover better when used at closer range and reach out farther for longer range.  But then again, I don't live in a densely populated area where such ballistic properties may work against you from a legal risk perpsective.   

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.223 ammo availability

I noticed after noon that BulkAmmo.com had .223 in again...1000 rounds (brass) for $585.  They showed 35 cases ready to ship when I first noticed this... I noodled around a bit doing other things.. checked back, and they had 24 cases left.  Although I don't even have a rifle yet..am first in queue with my local FFL for either a Windham or S&W.. I figured I should jump on this.  By the time I got my order in, there were 8 cases left.  Amazing.        

Doug's picture
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Jim H wrote:I noticed after

Jim H wrote:

I noticed after noon that BulkAmmo.com had .223 in again...1000 rounds (brass) for $585.  They showed 35 cases ready to ship when I first noticed this... I noodled around a bit doing other things.. checked back, and they had 24 cases left.  Although I don't even have a rifle yet..am first in queue with my local FFL for either a Windham or S&W.. I figured I should jump on this.  By the time I got my order in, there were 8 cases left.  Amazing.        

I must have looked at the site a bit before you because they had 50 round boxes for sale at cheaper prices than the 1000 round lots.  They disappeared in a hurry.

Doug

Oops, now the 1000 round lots are gone. 

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ao, you are out of detention! You deserved it. Without rules...

...chaos! Better than peeling potatoes for tonights chow. LOL

AO, I have a 308 and is sufficient and my choice for hunting deer. It is scoped too and a good choice also. For hunting.

My whole feelings and why I recommended what I did was the responsibility factor. There are a slew of better choices depending on price range. Personally, used, has no interest for me especially a weapon that has seen repeated firings.

As someone who doesn't anticipate the 2nd Civil War eruption as some here, I do believe that knowing where you fire your weapon is more important than what weapon you own. It is one thing to fire on an intruder and quite another to kill your neighbor with an errant shot using a weapon of mass destruction.. So life imprison with an over KILL SHOT is NOT what I expect from the future.

I should have mentioned that I make my own ammo with a unit some family and friends own collectively in my Son's Man room, and shot gun shells are less powder for me for home invasion. Same results, less velocity, and if I miss it won't penetrate my neighbors home across the street (I hope).  Less powder, less kick. Anyways, I don't find the kick in a Mossberg significant, and that could be because adrenaline is always present when I'm firing my weapon. Seldom do I raise my shot gun to my shoulders, and my hands must be strong enough that I find no hindrance to pumping, firing, and moving my mean streak down line.

Anyways, I felt it necessary to give a little more color so that this gentleman could make an informed decision. It really is dependent on his point of view. Is he buying for a military application or self preservation? That would have to be answered by him. Honestly, give me a shot gun any day to any weapon. Well, I have fallen in love with my carry 45ca. because I take with me my piece of mind without the bulk.

Respectfully Given

BOB

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Thoughts on priorities

I'd forego shotguns and 1911 for right now.
They may end up being the most logical choices soon, though, as it will be pretty tough to ban those.
Right now, get things you will not have access to if there is a ban.

The rifle itself.
Magazines.
Ammunition.

And for the love of all that's decent, be responsible with them!
A more rigorous buying process is a minimum we can expect, and for all my vitriol, i actually can see that as a sensible solution. Extra training and security are necessary with the additional capability of a military pattern rifle. I expect another magazine restriction and laws regarding the sales of new rifles. If you're mil or leo, expect supplies to be available. All others, get your supplies if you are so inclined. There is a serious change on sentiment in the politics of firearms right now, and it will probably be permanent.

Cheers,
Aaron

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Bought one of the last rifles to be found

Update:  I appreciate all of the suggestions I found here at PP as to a good combat rifle.  Thank you all.  I studied your suggestions carefully.  (I hope that they serve as a resource for other newbies, too.)

Then this morning, I called my local dealer and tried to make a purchase.   He advised that ALL of the military style rifles were sold out, their distributors were sold out and they would not take any orders for any rifles!  Holy cow.

So I found a terribly overpriced Sig Sauer M400 rifle in .223 Remington on gunsamerica.com and bought it.  Why that model?  (To paraphrase Mallory's quote on why he climbed Mt Everest)  "Because it was there" (and nothing else could be found.)

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/m400-enhanced-od-green.aspx

Just talked to the seller and it was the second to the last that he has and he will be sold out of everything too.  I think that I paid about $1,000 - $1,200 over the MSRP, and came away feeling lucky to have purchased anything.

Any suggestions on magazines and recommendations on sights?

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6. Economics. Ideally you

6. Economics. Ideally you should buy the one that you can afford, and practice with. It may be more practical to own more than one. One that is very cheap to practice with and another that provides you the distance and stopping power. Besure to check out the availability of ammo and ammo pricing. 

7. Your options may be limited. As with the recent buying spree, don't expect to get the one that you want. You may have to settle for what is available, or wait a year or more before the model you want become available. Assuming that federal regulations do not block it in the future. Its better settle for the one that is available than wait for the one you want. The perfect rifle may be the one that is available, simply because its not on a 2 year backorder.

8. Not all ammo is equal. The cheap stuff today is laquered steel which can jam your rifle. Cheaper ammo also uses dirty/corrosive powder, which can be a problem with some rifles or cause problems in the future. Check online to see if the rifle you want has problems with the ammo you wan to buy.

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Gun ban PR blitz in full swing

I jog on a treadmill each morning at the gym with my wife.  This morning, during the 45 minutes of my run, 5 of the 6 TV stations on the wall had "news" reports on "the gun control debate."  One had a report of the widow of a slain police officer who was scheduled to "discuss gun control" with VP Biden later today.  Another, interviews with a survivor of the Virginia Tech shooting who was meeting with the Virginia governor to discuss "increasing gun safety."  And of course, school officials from CT opining that "something must be done to protect the children."  The dog and pony show continued unrelentingly.  An entirely one sided discussion of a complex and nuanced topic.

My assumption is that the elites have decided that NOW is the time to restrict gun availability.  This media blitz is the process by which the "sheeple" are lead to hold the correct attitudes and beliefs. (It is wonderful what you can do when your group owns ALL the major media.)  The decision has been made.  Public opinion and policy will be brought into line soon.

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Nice Choice

Nice rifle; I have a Sig 556 and didn't know Sig was making a M4 variant.  Great products from the Swiss.  I wouldn't worry too much about the overpayment, soon enough that rifle will be priceless, and the cash you used to buy it will be worthless.  I look at these rifles as alternative investments and there is NO substitute for a tool like this in the event you need one.  

Rector

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shotguns

Aaron, hi. You said:

I'd forego shotguns and 1911 for right now.
They may end up being the most logical choices soon, though, as it will be pretty tough to ban those.

That was pretty much what I thought, too, when I got our shotgun. Our next step will be to get reloading equipment for shotgun shells. Any recommendations, folks? 

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Observations On Best Combat Rifles

Good morning all,

There is an old saying, 'Beware the man with only one gun!'  The reasoning is simple.  If that individual has only one gun, they know how to use it properly and they know how much they depend on it.  For the longest of time, I had one firearm.  It was an Ithaca Model 37 12 gauge pump shotgun.  Shotguns have been used in the front lines of every war and revolution going back hundreds of years.  I used it to hunt deer, small game (pheasants, rabbits, and such), for trap and skeet, and for home defense.  I did not use buchshot for home defense as I am intimately aware of the damage a shotgun can do at close range.  I did not with to endanger my neighbors.  I used bird shot instead.  I've been known to go 25 for 25 on the trap range. Many a man with an expensive double barrel trap gun has shot trap against me only to lose to that old Ithaca.  I've had that pump shotgun since I was 16!  Beware the man with only one gun!

For men, I recommend a 12 gauge pump and for women I recommend a 20 gauge pump shotgun.  There is no scarier sound in the night than hearing a round being chambered into a pump shotgun.  There are many really good tactical shotguns out there.  The mechanicals of making a reliable shotgun have been known for ages.  Have a look at what is still available and purchase one.  

For safety, purchase a suitable lock or lockable gun case please.  I now have two pump shotguns even one that is a single shot break-action antique.  Loads of fun to shoot.  When I don't use my shotguns, I have been known to remove the barrels and hide them in my home separate from the action/pump/stock.  The unltimate in firearms safety.  

Due to the recent media and political blitz around gun control, I recommend that you purchase a shotgun from a US-based manufacturer.  The easiest thing for the Obama administration to do is create an Executive Order to ban the import of any firearm they deem dangerous to our health.  That is likely to include shotguns.

The M4/AR15 variants out there in 5.56/.223 are the best battle rifle out there at this point in time.  They can be customized to meet the needs of any and all citizens.  They can be modified in barrel, forearm grip, stock, optics, caliber and more!  I cannot recall any other firearm that is this customizable, except maybe the Ruger 10/22.  My entire family are comfortable with the 5.56 M4/AR15.  The recoil is negligable and allows a rifleman to stay on target.  

Due to the recent controversy on gun control, prices have risen significantly for these rifles.  I am lucky enough to have worked my way through college working in a machine shop.  I build my rifles from the lower receiver on up.  This isn't hard if you have the right tools and are willing to learn from a video or friend.  Right now it doesn't even matter.  The USA inventory of lower receiver and upper receiver parts and accessories have been stripped from everyone's shelves for the moment.  As some items are imported in order to meet deman, we may be in for a hard time while inventories are returned to normal levels.

In my humble opinion of course....

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Welcome

Hello GM_Man

Welcome to the forums, and thanks for your informative post.

Travlin

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You should have seen the line waiting for the gun shop to open..

this morning in NY, Dutchess County, post Lord Cuomo's fire and brimstone, "who needs 10 bullets to shoot a deer" speech yesterday.  My Lord, you would have thought it was Black Friday and they were selling iPads at 1/2 off.  After 1 hour in line with a great group of guys...felt like I was attending an Oath Keepers meeting... I walked out with one of the last assembled weapons they had that shoots .223..a Ruger Mini-14 (Tactical) for under MSRP!  I gave up on trying to get an AR after I saw the last few at another store earlier in the week going for $1500 OVER MSRP... choke, gasp.  Now we wait and see what changes in the law shake out of all the Bills in play, State and Federal.   

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boom guns

Bob... I agree and I have an additional .02 (so that's double the free advice!)

Imagine the purpose for the weapons... close defense and home protection WHILE using weapons that put out as much OUCH as possible with least amount of aim and effort - that's the priority IMO.  If a real distance firefight breaks out, you best be fit as a fiddle, with the temperment to match.  Plus the ammo and tactics.  If not, Plan B... RUN!!

My fav is a Rem 870 12 gauge (with buck or even slugs, aiming need not be as delicate).  For distance (well,  50 yards maybe) a Taurus Circuit judge shooting a .45 long colt.  For close support a Taurus Judge pistol 410.  Those will clear out close intrusions... and hopefully send the enemy to easier prey!  All of them in the $400 to $600 range.  Ammo is plentiful and out of the spotlight!!!!

The 410s are easy for women and kids.  Even the 12 gauges can be managed by the amateur with little training.   AND you oughta see Grandma with a bandoleer of .45 and 410s.... Ma Barker!!

Pray that we never need them!

Tricky

PS  Shotguns are a lot better at hunting fowl too... should that be necessary!

PPS   Don't forget to stock up on EAR PLUGS!

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