Preppers will die, Without Rule of Law

A. M.
By A. M. on Thu, Sep 6, 2012 - 8:08pm

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/bi6DBnQ_tUo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Saw this on another forum and thought it was worth a lot.
Got a lot of raised eyebrows from me. 

I'm interested in hearing folks' here speak on this.
Especially interested in contrasting how the veterans and citizens compare and contrast...

Discuss?

Cheers,

Aaron

54 Comments

A. M.'s picture
A. M.
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Video Link

Not sure why that didn't embed... Link above.

Cheers,

Aaron

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rocketgirl2
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I needed to hear that.

I needed to hear that.  Everyone needs to hear that.  He's exactly right and I respect what he knows.

Thanks Aaron

Jim H's picture
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From one who never touched a gun before last year...

I will comment since I just brought my fifth long gun (A HiPoint .45 carbine) home today.  I love the 9mm versions... so far my impression of the .45 is that it does not feed or eject as cleanly (maybe just new) and the charging lever is more like the clutch on a Corvette ZR1 vs. the 9mm carbines, which have lighter controls like my Honda Accord 5spd. manual.   

A.  I don't even have a pistol... getting the license in my state is a pain.. I plan to do it, but it has not been my priority.  Long guns will rule for home and neighborhood defense.  I don't plan on going out much once the "lights are out" other than in the service of organized neighborhood defense.    

B.  I think the points on training are right on.  Somebody like me needs to hit the range as much as possible and do the kind of drills described.  

That being said... I think the poster overestimates the degree to which our neighborhoods will turn in to war zones... I personally think that a strong, visible neighborhood defense/militia, with maybe a few manned roadblocks, would cause troublemakers to move on elsewhere.  To that end, the second most important item behind the weapons themselves is, I believe, communications in the form of GMRS band (NOT CB) radios and plenty of batteries;

  http://www.amazon.com/Midland-GXT1000VP4-36-Mile-50-Channel-Two-Way/dp/B001WMFYH4/ref=pd_cp_e_0       

There seems to be growing chatter along the lines of this post as we get closer to the moment of truth;

http://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2012/09/04/barnhardt-on-bracke...

http://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2012/09/03/bracken-when-the-mu...

How bad do others think it might get? 

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joesxm2011
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practicing is good, professional training is better

Aaron,

That is a sobering video.  Thanks for putting it up.  The more training I get the more I realize that I have so much farther to go.

What I have found is that getting off on the right foot with some good professional training with your basic marksmanship is really helpful.  Just shooting at the range leaves you at the point of not knowing what you do not know.

Recently I have come to realize that having led a really sheltered life the same applies to knowing what it is like to be on the receiving end of thug/criminal violence or actual combat.  I have decided that I need to seek training beyond how to shoot from people who have actually experienced this stuff.

To be honest, I find the situation described in the video to be disheartening.  If you add up gangs, criminals, a tiny percentage of combat veterans (or heaven forbid an intersection of these groups) you have a large number of skilled predators.  If things ever get bad enough that these people go on the march, people like us here on this forum will have a major problem on their hands.

You can get training, but how does a couple weekends a year stack up against a lifetime of violence or multiple years in a war zone?  Even then, what can one or few do against many?

Trying to get back to the upbeat theme of this site, I think that one step is to become part of a community that can help take care of each other.  That might help to solve the one versus many problem.

If we in the flock start getting some training, we probably cannot train up to the point of actually protecting ourselves, but we might be able to get to the point where we can be a useful recruit for the community defense.  If the community has experienced veterans and law enforcement officers that can organize the defensive efforts and provide additional training maybe there is hope.

Thank you for the thought provoking video. 

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Wendy S. Delmater
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Please forgive me, but I

Please forgive me, but I could not watch the whole thing. The sore or blister inside the guy's lower lip kept distracting me. I caught the first third so that is all I am commenting on here.

To answer your question, Aaron - a citizen, not a soldier here. I like to think of myself as somewhat hardened--I've been called a "tough broad" by some of the meanest dudes in NYC construction, but I am only one person and lack military training. What this video did for me was to remind me to go out and get more range practice, stay as healthy and fit as I can, and drag my family out to range practice. And get the neighborhood watch going - I now know who the trustworthy and former military types are.

Want to know what this made me think of? A tourist memory. I've been directly inside a bloody riot, with rocks and bottles thrown and tear gas and battons in response - at an unexpected demontration at the coronation of Queen Julianna of Holland, to be exact. It's as close as I ever came to war. This was not my fight, so once we were out of danger I sat it out in a pub until there was more tear gas inside than outside - and observed. I saw three classes of people: those who were non-combatants who ran and hid and shook and cried, those who were non-combatants who were ready to deal with any threats (some individuals and one group), and those who enganged who they were conviced were the enemy.

If widespread looting and home invasions happen, we can't run and hide. I suspect we will have to switch from defensive to offensive as the situation warrants. I worry that too many of us will try to run when we should turn and fight. I worry many of us will be too isolated and not give a comunity response which will make us easy marks for predators who travel in large groups. Worry is good, as long as it leads to action.

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A much-needed perspective

Excellent Video, Aaron!

For me, this whole topic, the points he's making, have felt like a big blind spot here (and in my own preps).  -Not enough focused discussions (or actions) based on taking a hard look at this perspective: that we could be in some serious sh%t if things go down, and we lose the rule of law.  Being able to grow veggies and preserve a harvest is one thing, and it is important.  But I have had this nagging voice in the back of my head wondering if all that's a mute point if we can't survive an initial hard crash, if that's what it comes to. 

I keep telling my son that the best way to solve a problem is to avoid it in the first place.  But I can't figure out how to avoid this one, and I certainly do not feel adequately prepared to deal with it.

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Oops!

Oops; I meant "moot" point, not "mute"!blush

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Lost a post

I had a fairly long post that suddenly disappeared into the ether and am not going to duplicate it now. In my opinion Jim made the best point so far in this thread: 

Quote:
... I think the poster overestimates the degree to which our neighborhoods will turn in to war zones...

We should all be preparing for what we think is the worst case scenario.  Remember, trust yourself.  I certainly don't  believe we are headed for Mad Max.  More likely, the worst any of us will face is home invasion or confronting thieves near our homes.  We won't need rifles that are accurate up to 200 yards.  Pistols or shotguns will be quite adequate, particularly if you live in a forested region where you can't see much of anything 200 yards away.  I have heard it said that the best weapon for home protection is the one you can get to in a hurry.  In my case, that would be a handgun.  If you are worried about self defense away from home, a concealed carry handgun is the obvious choice. Carrying around long guns would be ill advised in most American towns and cities.

I've thought a bit about what I would have to do to prepare for a real shtf situation which I consider a very long shot.  The defensive measures I would feel compelled to take are way beyond anything I consider prudent.  That would require a real bunker mentality and lifestyle that we are just not willing to undertake.  That's why the real survivalists are holed up in the mountains of Idaho or Montana.  They don't live in my neighborhood.

However, my neighborhood is pretty well armed and has more than a few vets.  It could probably turn out a reasonable fighting force with a little training and preparation, but neither of those actions are happening or are likely to happen in the absence of a common perceived threat like roving bands of hooligans or a wave of violent thefts or home invasions.  The perps in those kinds of actions are generally themselves poorly prepared for serious self defense, but may be willing to take sudden violent actions to get what they want.

Short of building your bunker, I would suggest preparing to defend against your average bad guy, not a well trained army.  You aren't going to beat them anyway.

Doug

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Excellent clip

Though I'm always amazed how guys like this assume preppers are looking forward to the end of days - I guess a few youtube posts by thrill seeking loser wannabes is enough to generalize with.  Still very surprised how the military guys don't take into account proximity to sources of welfare, like that zombie map thing - typically but not necessarily large metro areas.  Matt Bracken posted an excellent piece offering another terrifying breakdown scenario  - titled when the music stops, How Americas cities may explode in violence.  Check it out if you haven't already - ESPECIALLY IF YOU THINK YOUR PART OF A LARGE METRO AREA IS JUST DIFFERENT AND FULL OF REASONABLE PEOPLE.  I think the closer you live to people living of govt, the more you have to be concerned with.  The animals out there have spent years living, training, breeding, beating, stealing, killing, drugging, etc - its their way of life.  They've "prepped" for whats coming the way they choose to live.....the ultimate preppers so to speak.

For a band within the spectrum of whats to come the video is dead on.  Its "bandwidth" will vary from here to there, but every locale has at least a ribbon of terror to live through. 

So Aaron, there you go - Treemagnets .02  Keep 'em comin, I enjoyed the video and the takeaway very much.

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Counterpoints

Thank you all for the responses - when I watched this video, some very familiar topics came up, and I felt it was very important to share them with the community here. First off - I think you all honed in on the points he made that were very valid. That's great, and a hearty round of kudos to everyone for that.

But the real point I want to make with this is this:
This video does an excellent job of describing war, but does not adaquately define a collapse.

So, from the perspective of offering advice to soldiers, this man has a lot to offer - he's clearly intelligent, experienced and his heart is in the right place... but...

Being in a warzone as a soldier is a tremendous departure from living in abject poverty as a citizen of a failed state - which is of critical importance. While this is unfortunate, I had the priviledge of seeing a warzone and failed state at the same time, as did the author of the video, but I believe we took away two entirely seperate points of view, and I want to frame a discussion that doesn't put his point of view down, but rather 'optimizes' it for the situation we're likely to face:

PT I: War

As many can attest, war is exactly as described in the video. Days upon days pass with relative quiet and boredom and then quick bursts of pretty terrible junk.
A rifle is every soldier's "primary" weapon - it serves as a means to attack and defend, and it's perfectly normal to see soldiers with rifles, as in a war zone, you're at war. The rifle is a fighting man's tool, and where there are fighting men, there are rifles. Pretty simple. 

My take on rifles is this: If you're expecting your enemy to be > you in terms of training, technology and tactical proficiency, you can't limit your thinking to your adversary as an individual - this is the type of thinking that translates to the street, but not to a war. In a war, your adversary is augmented by all sorts of terrible devices - IED's, Mortars, Armor, ISR (Surveillance drones, armed or not), attack aircraft and soldiers like Snipers and JTACs who fight using specialized tools.

These things are all "force multiplies" in wars. They take the power of one soldier, and make them significantly more capable to take on a significant number of opposing soldiers.

So, having a weapon that glows on white-hot Infrared is not such a big deal, when you're surrounded by other soldiers who are also producing a visible signature. Because of this, you aren't likely a target. Your unit is. 

This is not the case for the technologically unsophisticated troop. The unsophisticated troop (insurgent, militia, irregular, guerrilla etc) is absolutely going to stand out. SO - now, you're up against the opposing soldiers and their force multipliers... with a weapon that indicates you, beyond a doubt, as a armed combatant, legally armed or not.

So, your rifle is a target indicator.
In war, this is acceptable, though we see very few attempts of insurgents fighting with rifles - because they know it's a death sentence against a better trained, equipped and more advanced fighting force. After a TIC (Troops in contact) there will most likey be ISR assets with eyes on the 'enemy'.
Being caught with a rifle is not a great thing in this situation...

PT II: Social Collapse

We have a few examples of social collapse in the first world, and my favorite is Hurricane Katrina. 
This event was the closest thing we've seen in the U.S. to a total social breakdown. Now, some of this will be subjective and contentious, but, from my perspective, here is what did and did not happen:

What did not happen:
1. An all out, intrapopulation war
2. Protracted rifle battles (protracted being hours-days)
3. A pseudo-Darwinian struggle for survival where only the leanest and meanest of 'rattlers made it out.
4. Citizens forced to patrol to contact, and provide fire superiority for one another while they maneuver. 

I know there were instances of people using rifles for self and community defense. I remember listening to police scanners and hearing about a fire station where a firefighter used an SKS to drive back some looters, and stories about police who had spent 32 hours on duty clearing wreckage while taking sporadic fire. All of these are very serious, but they do not constitute a war.

What did happen:
1. Firearms confiscation - again, we see the rifle is, inequivocably, a target indicator - even if you're not in a warzone. So, a 'visible' firearm is a confiscated firearm.
2. Resource depletion and subsequent looting, including citizen-on-citizen violence 
3. Skirmishes between gangs (looters and otherwise) between police and citizens
4. A breakdown of the emergency management system on all levels for several days
5. An environment that favored those who were adaptable and cautious

So, what we see in this situation is, in my mind, a lack of clearly defined 'battle lines'. 
There is no cogent assessment of which people and distrcits are "hostile" and "friendly". There's no definition of who is looting - if you're out on the street, you're suspect. Period.

What can we infer from this?
That people are driven to shelter in incidences like this. People see looters on the street, and they go to ground. They don't stick around to match force with some unknown adversary, who has some unknown level of combat effectiveness. As SouthNarc says, "they're not interested in a martial contest". We all know this, but few people say it: It's more important to survive, than it is to defeat your adversary.

People get inside, keep their heads down, and defend their turf, on their terms... and, in this venue, a long-gun is perfectly acceptable. 

But, if you're forced to move, will you be brandishing your M4? 
I personally wouldn't risk it. Anyone who sees you will immediately identify you as a potential threat, and  you're going to be sending hackles up like crazy. Unless you've got the force multipliers to back that posture up, it could potentially kill you

Is the handgun the answer?
Well, that depends on the question, but no - in general, this situation didn't create a class of super bad-asses who were the toughest "1 Percenters" in NOLA. Most people kept their heads down and rode it out.
The ones who went out to brawl either survived or died and became a statistic outlier. Not the new median. I think the video overlooks just how long it takes to 'breed' that kind of toughness, and overlooks the average person's will to survive.

Because of this, I think the ability to be seen as either "neutral" (No weapons visable) or not seen at all. The larger party you're traveling with, the harder the second on is, but what we're looking to do in any case is to steal, and maintain iniative. We want people acting off our cues, we do not want to react to others. If there is a fight, make them come to you, and do not allow them to suspect you're armed.

There are situations (Selco's account of collapse in Croatia) in which citizens were targeted randomly and killed by adversaries with rifles for simply being out. In this case, a rifle is not going to help you. You've never had iniative, and you are on the enemy's terms as soon as you leave shelter.


PT III: Training, Equipment and the "Bugging out" falacy

So, if you're forced to travel, will you do so as a cohesive military unit during MOUT? With your family?
Through streets filled with toxic water and dead bodies ripening in the August sun? How are you going to cook, purify water and pull security for however many days it takes to get out of the city?

Where will you hide your children? How will your family take care of necessary hygienic tasks? 

Will the contents of your 'bug out bag' bridge these gaps in security, health and mobility?
Will a rifle?

My submission is - no. In all cases, no. Skills will. Excellent planning will help. 

There is not much to substantiate the video's supposition that roving packs of apex predators who have honed their skills in battle will be coming for you... this is a military tactic, and without the discussed force multipliers - this is extremely risky for the offensive unit. The attrition is so high that those who rely on this method will extinct themselves rapidly.

If allowed to fester for generations, then yes, the gang mentality that is discussed could certainly happen. Even a prima facia glance at the Taliban will reveal that to be their "MO" and origin. So it's important to have a community defense plan, and be able to fight - and under those conditions, I agree with the video.

However, the vast majority of our interactions will be almost normal. You'll speak to people, engage in commerce, have a family to tend, be preoccupied with food, water and medical concerns and so on. Your children will want to get married. Your parents will pass away. 

Life will not change that much. It will just be more difficult. 
For those reasons, it's my belief that you should spend as much time developing skills to deal with urban escape and evasion, and fight off multiple attackers with your bare hands, edged weapons and handguns, rather than devote hours upon hours to your carbine or rifle. 

Anything you can learn to do with your rifle, you can do with your sidearm. The inverse is not true. 
If you're forced off the street with your wife/husband and X number of children into a building that's pitch black, and sodden - what will you do?
How about if you're being pursued? 
Can you clear enough of that building to hold up? Can you identify ingress and egress points and access them? Can anyone help you? Have you tried this with children or unarmed dependants?

These are all methods of thought that will favor the individuals who have a broad pallette of tools at their disposal - not those who are hyper-proficient at one specific task. 

Your community will still be your community, and you'll still have to conduct yourself accordingly. The odds are against a full-scale, free for all in which you, in the last of the V8 interceptors, are speeding across the desert looking for gas and shotshells. 

These are my thoughts on the matter.
Cheers,

Aaron

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Rector
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I must be way ahead of the crowd?

Lots of combat vets out there these days.  Not a bad collection of truisms, however, I didn't hear anything new here.  I agree with him that the average "prepper" isn't ready for combat at any intensity level, however, I believe that the "enemy" is even more lazy, stupid, and unprepared for combat.  Ambush tactics executed against unsuspecting people will always work, even if the folks that are being ambushed are SEALS.  It's tough to defend against a long range shooter, or an ambush.  Period.

However, the well-organized criminal gangs will have to roll the dice again and again as they try to collect resources from the unsuspecting and weak.  There will be attrition.  Once in awhile they will run up against some really capable folks who will thin their ranks significantly and reduce the motivation of the remaining predators.  Robbing and stealing is tough work because the WROL environment works both ways.  Sheeple will wake up and potentially overreact or take offensive action when they feel threatened.  We are Americans; we love violence.  Some of us are good at it too. 

Likewise, don't downplay the force multiplier effect of motivation.  People who are pressed by circumstances and fear for their lives or the lives of their loved ones can be formidable.

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Aaron’s right

Aaron Moyer wrote:

This video does an excellent job of describing war, but does not adaquately define a collapse.

Aaron

You hit the nail on the head.  I think it is much more useful to read FerFAL about how events played out in Argentina.

Web site  http://ferfal.blogspot.com/

Book   http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Survival-Manual-Surviving-Economic/dp/9870563457/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347055975&sr=1-1&keywords=ferfal

I want to make clear that everyone’s guns were illegally confiscated in New Orleans.  They conducted house to house searches to find them.  This account also has some great stories of how people coped.  http://www.amazon.com/Great-New-Orleans-Gun-Grab/dp/0970981333/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347056128&sr=1-1&keywords=the+great+new+orleans+gun+grab

Frail old lady slammed against the wall 

Official attempts to drive people from their homes 

Travlin

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I never knew that guns were

I never knew that guns were confiscated after Katrina !

It seems to me that since the last presidential election that citizens have become more trained and armed.

I wonder if with organizations like this one  frontsight.com for example, some of you may be under estimating the general public.  I know for a fact that membership (not including temporary training) has increased year over year at this particular place.

This is where I personally got my training and I trained along side returning military and law enforcement personnel.  The ratio was about 80/20 with 20% being civilian.

Just a thought. 

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meh, not for me

I'm glad Aaron made some further useful comments and clarifications including the difference between a combat zone and a zone of civil insurrection or societal decay or similar scenario.  I think most of Aaron's comments were spot on.  The video made some good points (although many of them were obvious) but other aspects of it were simply not very good.  The presenter appears to be depressed and suffering from PTSD which has distorted his perception and outlook.  He is also perhaps a little too full of his combat time (i.e. which was one type of theater with one type of combat experience).  He also seems to have watched a few too many bad movies or videos and tends toward overly dramatic, apocalyptic thinking.  When the lights go out, the murderous rampages start and hapless preppers get slaughtered like sheep?  Let's get real.  He just doesn't seem very cognizant of human history.  Also, his perspective seems to be very conventional and his thinking very predictable.  Kind of reminded me of the inside-the-box modern version of redcoats facing rebels ... he's still thinking of the way the last war was fought.  I can think of a number of ways of taking out, disabling, or discouraging an enemy without using firearms where there'd be no overt appearance of a threat and little or no obvious tracing evidence (to someone of his orientation) but I will not discuss those things here for obvious reasons.  Physical training and skills are important but so are instinct, intuition, innovation, intention, mental/psychological preparation and disclpline, and a spiritual sense of self and the situation.  Although it's old school, it's no coincidence that the Alvin Yorks, John R. McKinneys, Simo Hayhas, etc. were country boys and woodsmen with a background of hunting, consummate marksmanship skills, and the ability to tolerate hardship yet remain upbeat and optimistic.  The gloom-and-doom, defensive living attitude is one of defeat.  Just like I favor contrarian investing, I also favor contrarian living, a cooperative attitude, and embracing life rather than a fearful, scarcity based, bunker mentality based on fear, strife, and competition.  Some folks get so focused on survival, they forget about living.  I'd rather have my physical body die than experience a living death of the spirit.       

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Satan's Rules

Run away and live to run away another day. 

If you are not in control of the ambush or situation, Run. (Just slip out the back, Jack.)

Empathy is an asset. Become a friend .Then you can set him up to be the fall guy. 

Speaking of which, always try to bring along the designated patsy, someone to draw the enemies fire. Tell her that if she breaks cover and lives she is free. (Does somebody want to say that that is not fair?)

Use women and kids. Your enemy will have a soft spot for kids. (It is amazing how much women will tell you if you slit one of her kids throats.)

Never threaten.

Learn to invent at least 4 layers of lies. You will be broken by interrogation. (See the bit about Run, above)

Always make yourself a warm, dry, comfy bed and never sleep in it. 

Protect your hearing. You never know when you might need it. Learn to eat vermin.

War makes a virtue of every vice. It is when Satan Rules. Dont get involved. No excuses  accepted.

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Sad

Watching these two videos makes me sick.

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JBarney, Why? Rocketgirl, Ke

JBarney,

Why?

Rocketgirl,

Keep in mind that's a shooting school - not a fighting school. This is anecdotal, but from my experience, a lot of great shooters are too focused to be good fighters. Plus, I'd venture to say even with training on the rise, a lot of folks will stop before they reach a level of competency. 

Though, as Rector already said - I think the crooks are already outpaced in a lot of regards. Even the "1%'s" are relying on a very special trait to get by - escalation of force. Most of the time, fights are won by the person most willing to do violence - not by the most skilled. Being motivated, and 'right' help, but that's just my belief. =)

AO,

I'm glad to hear your feedback.
I think you and I are on the same page. This sounds bad, but I *instantly* felt for this guy when I started watching his video. CAPOC cap, downcast eyes (even when he wasn't reading), tired tone - dude is fatigued. He's found a routine and he's probably damn good at it, but it's hard to invision that routine "changing".

Anyway, that's neither here nor there, but I agree entirely. Within the first couple sentences, when he said "when the lights go out" - I nearly lost interest and quit watching. These kinds of cliche catchalls generally are meant to disguise a lack of planning. As if things will get so bad that a plan will be a waste, so you better grab a rifle and prepare to be overrun. 

As I watched, I got the vibe that the author did believe that was the way things would go, but he also made his points in a very concise and sincere manner, so I figured it warranted some discussion.

Regardless of how any of us see this stuff personally, a lot of veterans see all emergencies of all types as 'combat oriented'. It's very tough to change that once a person has it engrained. Sorry bro. I'm rambling.

Arthur Robey,

I hate your posts on these topics, often as not.
I'm sure you understand why this isn't an insult. 
Your perspectives always make me think twice about talking.

Rector,

Couldn't agree more about attrition. It's almost mathematically predictable. The cycle of emboldenment, cockiness and cutting through the butter until you hit steel. That surprise is a jolt that in many cases is as surprising as an ambush. And man oh man, you might have hit the jackpot with "attrition works both ways". This is probably the single most important point that the video misses

Travlin,

FerFAL actually posted on the thread I took this video from.
His main points were basically the same as mine - this video is superimposing one scenario, but the two are too different to reconcile. I like FerFAL but I don't generally follow him because on most topics, I already have an idea what he'll say. 

So, all of this begs the question: What is WROL to you?
What is your feared situation? How are you trapped in your thinking?
How likely is it, and how much time do you have devoted to planning for it?

What are your needs, problems and solutions? 
How to do you prepare and train to overcome them?

Thank you all for an interesting discussion - this is really thought provoking, and I really hope it continues.
Cheers,

Aaron

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RNcarl
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I'm Toast!

Well,

I am old, fat and out of shape.

I have not been in any kind of "$h!t" for over twenty years and even then I wasn't shot at. I only came close once when a punk I was trying to help with a broken collar bone from a car crash pulled a small pistol on me because he thought I was going to steal his pot.

My wife is convinced that nothing is going to happen.

My teenagers are, well, teenagers.

So, I do my modest "prepping" quietly, out of sight, out of mind.

My biggest hurdle is my lack of physical conditioning. I have no excuse. I am not disabled in any way,  nor do I have an illness that would preclude me from exercise. I am my biggest obstacle.

C.

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Doug
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RNCarl

I hear you.  I'm not in terrific shape either but am working on that.  But, no matter, at 65 I'm not going to be able to stand up to a 25yo who is in good shape and has malice aforethought without help.  I think today's podcast with Matt Stein is much more relevant to people in our circumstances.  My two kids are in college and are basically tolerant of my preps and belief system.  Nonetheless, they go along with planning how to get home or make contact in the event of some black swan event.  That gives me some peace of mind.

Doug

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I think you are correct in

I think you are correct in the points that you touch on however this topic is slmost too complex to give concrete points.  Certainly on this side of things being orderly.  Great point BTW in the difference between trained to defend and trained to fight.  I honestly didn't look at it that way.

IMO, so much of what happens in 'that moment' depends on what is naturally inside of you (fight or flight), what you have trained for previously and if your training will over ride your fight or flight natural tendencies.

I really appreciated the video for several reasons but one that stood out for me is mirrored by what I learned in training and that is the need to train repetatively in order to develope the memory muscle.  I was taught that you lose too much of your ability to reason and respond if you don't have the neuro connections already in place.  These connections are somewhat lost if you don't continue to practice.

I also appreciated how candid he was.  He's seen and been through some stuff and he looked like he knows what people are capable of.  I see his offering as valuable to a civilian like myself because I believe we need to be reminded of how bad things can get and that spurs us into action.

You Aaron (I'm going to assume here) are either in military on going or you have finished but you have a military background so, at any rate, your perspective is as someone who can now navigate both civilian and military and perhaps you see how the man in the video leans more toward his war experience and is lacking in the failed state/civilian experience.  I find value in where he's at right now (I know you do too so I'm not saying you don't) , perhaps a little PTSD, but he's still feeling some pretty raw emotions and that's important to remember because we could find ourselves in that place of being.

I'm going to remember his face, his sorry demeaner, his sincere desire to speak and the story in his eyes and I'm going to take that as a warning to start cleaning out the corners of my life, so I know I've done everything I could if I see someone I love suffer like I now know that man has seen.

That's the story I saw when I watched the video.  Not so technical but then again I guess it depends on what you saw. 

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long guns make targets

Aaron, the biggest takeaway for me so far was your suggestion that openly carrying long guns (rifles, shotguns) in public make you a target. I'd sort of instinctively known this but you really laid it out starkly. Our long guns are for home defense; as for the long emergency (or short term emergencies) we intend to shelter in place. Should we have to bug out the long guns would go with us but not be visible. Oh, thanks and for letting some of the newbies know that a 'visible' firearm is a confiscated firearm in a situation like Katrina

My other takeaway was that yes, social collapse is not war. You've been in war so you understand the difference. The whole idea of a Mad Max/Escape From New York scenario has never rung true to me (despite my "escaping" from the NY metro area. It just involved a moving truck *grin*.)  Our way of handling resource depletion and subsequent looting was to move to an area with less population and more resources and people less likely to loot (Bible Belt). There still may be instances of citizen-on-citizen violence or skirmishes between gangs or looters coming out of our nearby capitol city, but the city is small and people tend to pull together here. I'm not even too concerend about more than problems between police and citizens: the police here have a well-armed citizenry and any bad eggs will have to think twice before pulling any random acts of violence. Nevretheless, there are only so many of them and a breakdown EMS could easily happen in a dire emergency: they'd be overwhelmed.

But in a Long Emergency, I agree: life will basically be the same, just more difficult.

 

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Aaron You are incorrect about

Aaron

You are incorrect about Frontsight.  They also offer Martial Arts Training (empty hand defense, edged weapons and advanced martial arts).  Also, family safety courses for both adults and children and Defensive Driving courses.

I wasn't aware of these offerings myself but I found them on their site in about 30 seconds.

Just saying.

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Martial arts versus Martialism

Rocketgirl,

I'm smiling as I start in on this because after our discussion the other day, I hope you know a couple things:
1. I wouldn't talk about something if I didn't some first hand, and;
2. I absolutely mean no offense

So, a here are some things to think about.

1. Martial arts are not equal

This isn't a qualitative evaluation, but a quantatitve one.

You could be trained in Silat, P'kal, Krav Maga edged techniques - Front sight edged weapons - whatever school you want to discuss, and there are a few things that need to be accounted for. 
These schools are all teaching "knife fighting". But they're all different styles, developed for different situations. 

So what, right?
They're all knife fighting schools.
Well, no. Not really...

Just like not all schools are the same, knives vary greatly as well - they have different heft, haft, length, blade orientation, blade geometry and thrust physics. They can be point driven methods or edge driven methods. They can be edge up, edge down, edge forward or reverse edged. 

With all this complexity - how can one decide how to teach?
Well, the answer is martial arts. Martial arts are not for fighting. Tae Kwon Do, for example is a formalized martial art, just like Karate, Ju Jitsu or Wang Chun. But they are all different in origin and context. Because of that, martial arts are provided to people in order to develop some extremely basic martial prowess (each defined by its respective context) and some physical fitness. These arts, in other words, are to be practiced far more than preached. In short, they become little pockets of knowledge, where techniques devised by a martial art are to address threats found within that martial art.

2. Not all Martial arts are for fighting

Many martial arts these days are not for fighting at all - they're for competitive sport, and when placed "outside" that context, they instantly lose their ability to negotiate "street" problems. They can even be matched against other 'arts', but when it comes to fighting in broken glass on a bar room floor, what makes a difference is very different than what "wins points" in a competition.

For example, one of the things that occurs often when firearms or blades are introduced into a ground fight for practicioners of Ju Jitsu is to try and lock in a solid arm bar. 
You can see this technique here. The problem with this, and you'll have to visualize, is that if that hand had a firearm in it, it's now pointing right at Mr. Brown Belt's face.

This is not a outlaying oddity - it's a fairly consistent aspect of the weapons based environment. Guys with some martial "arts" training perform competitive techniques that in the world of "Martialism" will get you killed - even if they have some "martial arts training" in dealing with weapons.

Now, I'm going to lean heavily on Craig Douglas for a minute - and in truth, a lot of this knowledge has been imparted by him - but these are three constants in his practicum:
1. The myth of proportional armament
2. The myth of proportional iniative 
3. Posture, Positional Dominance and Properly timed IFWA (In Fight Weapons Access).

I'm going to see if I can find a video of my first ECQC iteration, in which I did what almost every firearms based student there does - and I draw when I am lacking positional dominance. 

I'd been "trained", to include Front Sight. So, what went wrong?
The schools I was studying with were not "fighting" schools - they were "shooting" schools. 

In the same way, Martial Arts are not "fighting schools". They're martial arts studios or dojos. 

So, please take thiese things into consideration - in order to be 'contextual', our training in firearms, edged weapons and hand-to-hand need to be:
1. Integrative, which means all avenues must be available to the student. 
2. Reality based, meaning no proportional armament or iniative, in so much as that can be accomplished.
3. Force on Force, which means you must be fighting a living, breathing human being. 

There are other important qualities but I think it's really important that they're learned, not taught.
*shrug* 

Anyhow, thanks for bearing with me. I hope this helps clear up what I mean.
Cheers,

Aaron

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Aaron,You've explained that

Aaron,

You've explained that very well, thank you.  I was just commenting on your statement that Frontsight is a shooting school not a fighting school.  After your explanation that seems to still be the case.  If so then I stand corrected.  I do know that they do not train for competition (although an individual can use their knowledge for such) so I think your explanation there is incorrect.  

What kind of training (ie; training facility, etc.) do you recommend and where can someone like myself get such training?

* see, that was nice. "  it's nice to be nice to the nice" (M*A*S*H - Frank Burns)

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RBTE

Rocketgirl,

Keep in mind that even if they're not training for competition, they're not training for actual gunfights, as evidenced by at no time in the course is someone firing at you. They're developing marksmanship skills. A quick (I promise) example:
You can be given an M4 and a target, and taught how to quickly engage that target. Fire from various "fighting" firing positions, take cover behind various bits of cover and be accurate.

You've just trained for a fight. That's true.
But... You're not incorporating the previous 2 hours of patrolling you did, or the 50 yards you just sprinted under 50lbs of equipment, the sweat that's worked its way into your goggles, or the pain in your knee when you based it taking cover behind what turned out to be concealment. As the bullets hiss pass your head, your fire your weapon, roll and push yourself up out of the dirt and sprint for the next bit of cover while your buddy shouts "Covering!" 

Now you're sprinting again, trying to make out a target, in the direction you hear the gunfire, or see dirt being kicked up off the ground, but you can't be sure - all you know is that the bursts sound like an automatic weapon, and you had better hit the ground before they cut you in half. You drop, and rounds hiss, snap and ping around you once again, so you fire as best you can, so your buddy can move.

Now, you're fighting.
Your marksmanship is probably 1-5% of that altercation, so when you were training those fundementals, you wouldn't have a lack of familiarity working against you. Fighting is 50% tactics, 40% Fitness 5% raw aggression and 5% marksmanship. If your training doesn't reflect that, you can claim you're a "4 gun combat master" when the reality is you just spent the last 24 years developing a skill that accounts for ~5% of an actual fight, with weapons that only one of which you're likely to carry of use.
...Never mind having never been in "combat".

Anyhow, I could give you a few similar experiences from a non-military point of view from other altercations but the point is the same. 

So, if you're serious about training, the single best thing you can do is start a regular physical fitness regimen. As far as schools, all I can say is if they have SIM/FX and Force on Force - go for it. 

The results won't lie. You'll know real fast if you've trained to shoot, or trained to fight. If you're not shooting at people who're capable of shooting at you - you're training to shoot. 
Cheers,

Aaron

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Your explanation is exactly

Your explanation is exactly why I asked for your recommendation for a training facility.  Because Aaron, if you don't have any recommendations outside of military combat or consistent real life experiences out on the street, then it seems to me that my mention of Front Sight is the best someone like myself can do.

You have shown, very well I might add, the reason why a place like Front Sight and the training you can receive will fall short in a real world, person to person, scenario.  I really do appreciate the doses of reality that you've presented.  I've already learned some important information.

Describing the type of training isn't enough for someone like myself.  I don't even know what SIM/FX is.  Can it fit in a bread box?  Does it come with a matching bag?  Will it go with my heels? (sorry, feeling a bit silly)

You get my point.

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I'll poach.  Target Focus

I'll poach.  Target Focus Training.  http://www.targetfocustraining.com/

I have been doing TFT since January.  Hands down the most effective personal training I have ever been through.  So what....what's my endorsement worth?  Okay fine - TFT is also taught to ALL of the Navy SEAL Teams, East and West Coast.  Including SPECWARDEVGRU 10.  If that isn't good enough for you, stop reading.

I went in to my first weekend TFT seminar with an Instructor Certification in Muay Thai, and Apprentice Instructor Certification in Pekiti Tersia (Filipino Knife Fighting), Apprentice Instructor Cert in Eskrima Kali, Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do and Mahapalindo Silat under Guro Dan Inosanto, a Brown Belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu under Pedro Sauer, a Hapkido Brown Belt and a Tae Kwon Do Black Belt.

I came out understanding the limitations (all mental) of all of the arts I had practicing.  All of them were great tools and had very effective applications.  TFT training was the brand new tool kit to put my past martial arts training in - alongside some pretty devastating new tools.

TFT is real, it is effective and it is ugly.

I'd recommend registering on the site and reading the newsletters Tim Larkin puts out.  Poke around the site, register and watch some of the free videos.  Get "How to Survive the Most Critical 5 Seconds of Your Life”  It's only 29 bucks.

Chances are, you'll never need to use any of it, but if you find yourself in a situation where it's warranted, you'll know what to do (Hint - you already know what to do).

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SIM/FX training

RocketGirl,

There are schools around the country that provide SIM/FX training with scenarios designed for civilians, although I am not sure if any are local to your area.

A friend of mine took a one day class with 10 scenarios at Sig Sauer Academy in NH.

Another friend recommended a place in PA that provides good training.

John Farnam provides scenario training.

I suppose there are places out there that provide bad or less effective training as well.

I have started training with a guy who recently left active duty with 3rd Special Forces.  He has started a company in Southern New England that focuses on SIM/FX training for civilians and is also planning to offer some non-gun training for people like stay at home moms that need some help but do not want to take the full plunge into guns.

Having taken quite a bit of marksmanship training, what I am lacking is common sense tactics, exposure to stress and exposure to violent situations.  Half of my training is just discussion and movement with solid plastic "blue guns".  The other half is force on force SIM/FX.

I have had two sessions so far and have been really impressed with the potential for SIM/FX training.  Seeing muzzle flashes coming in your direction in the dark is quite an experience.

Despite his military background he seems to be making a good transition to civilian situations.  So far my two scenarios (coming home to a dark house) could have been handled without any shooting.  His main focus for me is "surviving in one piece".  Compared to some civilian instructors with no real-life gunfight experience, he seems less inclined to thump his chest and say "shoot'em in the eye".  I suspect that having experienced the after effects of combat he is more aware of what I would have to go through if I (heaven forbid) every were involved in a self defense incident.

Based on some offline conversations I have had with Aaron, I suspect that he is much less military-centric than you are making him out to be.  I think he his just trying to point out that if we ever have to defend ourselves it will be much more intense of a situation than we probably realize.

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joesxm2011
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what is SIM/FX

In short, SIM/FX is like paintball but using real guns.

The Simunitions system has been used extensively to train police and military, but only recently has been made available to select civilian instructors.

The benefit is that it allows you to train in an environment where you can be shot at and shoot back without getting killed.  This sort of training can also be done with Air Soft BB guns, but it is less realistic.

When you do the force on force training you wear a helmet and mask and possibly padded clothing and gloves, although I just wear the mask.

SIM/FX takes a real gun and replaces the barrel and slide with one that is physically incapable of firing a live bullet in standard calibers.  It can only fit a SIM/FX cartridge.

The SIM/FX cartridge has a case, primer and powder like a real cartridge, but it has a plastic bullet that can be filled with a paint/soap mixture so that it marks what it hits.  The bullet speed is something like 300 fps compared to 1100 fps for 9mm.  It is not loud so you do not need ear protection.

http://simunition.com/en

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joesxm2011
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What is Force on Force Training

There are two types of force on force training.

The first type is like sparring in martial arts.  You can use the SIM/FX guns to practice your shooting and any techniques like stepping to the side, dropping to kneeling, shooting while moving etc. with a live partner so you can figure out what works and what does not work in a closer to real-life situation.

The second type is designed more to give you experience in decision making processes.  This could also be done without SIM/FX, say with inert blue training guns, but when combined with SIM/FX it blends decision making in a realistic scenario with dynamic action as necessary in the scenario.

Since avoidance and deescalation should be our primary goals, many scenarios do not involve shooting.  When the scenario dictates you might have to shoot, just as is the case in real life.

When shooting with SIM/FX in force on force training a good trainer will only run the scenario to the place where the learning point is made and it should not degrade into a paintball war.

With scenario based training the quality of the scenarios and the quality of the role players is key to it being a good scenario or a waste of time.  The good scenarios usually have dedicated actors rather then having the other students fill in as role players.

The down side is that the SIM/FX cartridges are expensive as is the cost of having mulitiple actors helping out with the class.

A good scenario class will include after scenario discussion among the student and rest of the class to go over what was done, why it was done and what could have been done differently.

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Aah, very good !  Thanks Dogs

Aah, very good !  Thanks Dogs and joe and you too Aaron as I know you would have probably gotten to this info. soon.

Now I just have to decide when and how much.

Again, much thanks.

RG

*Just went to Dogs link and discovered Tim Larkin banned in the UK because of his skills (without reading the article so sorry if incorrect) ?  I suddenly feel like I'm in the rabbit hole with this subject. Is this the world we live in? This makes me even more excited to get more skills.  Hell yeah !

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rocketgirl2 wrote: Aah, very

rocketgirl2 wrote:

Aah, very good !  Thanks Dogs and joe and you too Aaron as I know you would have probably gotten to this info. soon.

Now I just have to decide when and how much.

Again, much thanks.

RG

*Just went to Dogs link and discovered Tim Larkin banned in the UK because of his skills (without reading the article so sorry if incorrect) ?  I suddenly feel like I'm in the rabbit hole with this subject. Is this the world we live in? This makes me even more excited to get more skills.  Hell yeah !

RG -

This is the world we have lived in for many more years than you know.  TFT will give you a skillset to face a situation where your only choice is to act and respond violently or to not act and be a victim.  It is not a "How to respond to the loud mouthed drunk at the bar who thinks you stole his chair".  It's for the quiet guy in the corner who has decided he is going to follow you out of the bar when you leave and hit you in the back of the head with a brick.

It took me two full seminars to figure out if my past martial arts training was a help or a hindrance.  What I concluded was the physical application was a help, but the mental instruction in almost all of the martial arts styles I studied and practiced was a hindrance.  Even though they were combative and competitive, they were still constrained by a rule set that was generally acceptable in social norms.

The guy in the bar with the chunk of brick in his coat pocket is under no such constraints.

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trained to be polite

What I have found from my recent training is the biggest problem people like us have is that we are used to being polite and afraid of looking paranoid or acting stupid.

There is a good book by Rory Miller called Facing Violence that covers some of this stuff such as the different types of predators and how to recognize them and distinguish between the different kinds.

http://www.amazon.com/Facing-Violence-Unexpected-Rory-Miller/dp/1594392137/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347206149&sr=1-1&keywords=facing+violence

When we are approached by someone it is not polite to suddenly tell them to stay back etc.  Criminals use this to get close enough to gain control before we can react.  The line between prudent and paranoid is certainly a fine one.

When I trained with Craig Douglas earlier this year it was a real eye opening experience.  I had never realized how fast bad things can happen to you, even when you think you have things under control.

Many shooting schools present the "Tueller Drill", which shows that a guy with a knife 21 feet (or so) away can run and stab befoe the average person can draw from the holster.  This leads to the idea that you will make sure to keep all criminals farther than 21 feet away at all times.  The problem is that you cannot identify the criminal until he is right on top of you.

Craig runs a mini course at the start of his classes called "Managing Unknown Contacts".  This is available on his DVD called "Practical Unarmed Combat".  It contains some good information. http://www.ccdefense.com/index.php?categoryID=3

Craig explains what he calls the criminal assault paradigm and then gives a strategy for keeping the unknown contact at a distance by first asking "hey buddy - can you hold it there", then escalating to "stay back", getting more forceful each time.  What this is doing is running the contact through a filter that a normal person would comply with.  As the unknown contact continues to encroach you are able to determine that he is up to no good.  Craig does a much better job of explaining this than me, so you should seek out the information from him.

Craig worked for two years as an undercover narcotics officer in Mississippi, so he is very well acquainted with how bad people do bad things, having been on the receiving end for most of his learning period.  He goes by the Internet handle of SouthNarc, since before he retired he needed to keep a low profile. 

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Will and Motivation

Rocketgirl,

I am not intentionally being dismissive, but it's important that some things you do for yourself.
You have the "tools" to start looking for a good training fit for you, and I don't like making 'endorements' for what worked for me because they may fail you. For that reason, I try and steer clear of recommending any specific school or instructor because that tends to lead people into a couple different modes:
1. They become fixated on that particular school or instructor, or;
2. They decide that now that they "know" what the don't know, they can just research it for themselves.

Both of these methods are pretty flawed, and I honestly don't think there are many classes or instructors who are good enough to train you twice. Dogs suggestion is probably an exception. I believe SouthNarc is as well. Venues like Vickers, TigerSwan and Joe's suggestion for King33 are also probable exceptions.

That said, there are some notorious industry professionals who claim that they're teaching an integretive paradigm but are teaching from teaching - rather than experience. If your instructor makes a lot of claims - avoid them. The true-blue guys will mention relevant experiences when they're examples that can be learned from. The guys who talk about their gunfighting experience on their websites are suspect. View every trainer like you would a TV Infomercial. They're all suspect, and you should select only things that are particularly well thought through.

Also, if you want some suggestions, please either list the classes you've taken and your general geographic location, or PM one of us with the information. We can try and give you more specific opportunities.

Cheers,

Aaron

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Shivworks

If you have a chance, Craig's class for me was a real awakening and a paradigm shift in my training.  His course (especially MUC portion) will do more to awaken situational awareness and how to handle being caught off guard than any other I know of.  I've used the techniques twice now in situations that I went to condition Orange on and his escalating approach worked well.

Pistol shooting...  Bill Roger's Shooting School  

Those two would be on the top.  There are many others, but I'd take either more than once.

Aaron Moyer

I'm glad I followed you here from TPI.  I had not read your stuff before and you are very articulative and well versed.  I expect to learn much here.

Having "well thought out plans" is why I'm here after reading your (Practical Survival Skills 101 – Understanding Emergencies Updated).  

I've got some skill sets and resources and even some ideas of what to expect, but no definitive plans.  Having looked around the site for only a few hours, I can see the quality of the people posting will help in this area I'm lacking and am glad to have found the site thanks to you.  Thanks!

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Welcome!

DVCPrepper,

Thanks for the kind words my friend, and welcome!

I hope you find a lot of useful material here, and I'm looking forward to hearing your experiences. I think you'll continue to find that there is a lot of really solid, hands on knowledge around here, and the approach people take to both planning, and more importantly, taking action is really helpful and easy to integrate.

Also, we have a good composite of military, LE and civilian shooters, as well as a few ECQC Alumni here (4 now, IIRC), so you'll find that a lot of the discussion around self defense is by guys with less ego, and a lot more practical understanding. A lot like TPI with a deeper well of scenarios to choose to discuss.

Anyway, welcome again!

Aaron

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Surviving

Aaron thanks for taking the time to create the video, it was thought provoking. My motto is acquire skills and everything in moderation. Gun classes and range practice are now part of our schedule. We have become Master Gardeners and are working on our EMT certifications. Be we also have many play dates with kids and grand-kids. The point being we don't live in fear, we plan for an uncertain future and cherish the here and now because that's really what life is.

Alaska Granny

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Quick Clarification

AKGranny,

Just to clarify - that's not me - I just posted the video that another fellow made to discuss some of his points.

I love your philosophy, by the way. Preparation isn't out of fear, it's out of love. Love of life, family, community, values... different things to different people, but the fear is generated because we don't want to lose the things we care about. 

So, yes, preppers might die. But in the meantime, they're still living. We're all headed for the same destination, anways, as far as I'm concerned. That's why I don't like broadform statements like "_____" group of people will die. Well, yes, but so will everyone else. 

Enjoy what you have while you have it, and try and preserve whatever you can for those you care about.

Cheers,

Aaron

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Thanks Aaron

Very well stated, I agree with you completely. Glad you are helping many of us to evaluate our preparations and look at one of the more unpleasant possibilities of life. Thanks for contributing.

Alaska Granny

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Thank You

I'm gonna have to comment in here, just so I can keep up with the discussion on a more consistent basis.

Aaron, what a frickin' GIFT we have in your sharing of your skills, experience, and intellect with our community. Thank you. And everyone, please keep contributing, too. I am learning from you guys as well. Thank you!

Poet

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Thanks!

Poet, 
Thank you for the kind words! 
I appreciate the compliment, and dialog as well. I'm glad people are finding this useful.
Cheers!
Aaron

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DVCPrepper - Welcome

Welcome brother.

It is interesting to see cross pollination between TPI and Peak Prosperity.

Aaron helped to buck me up enough to take ECQC last spring and it really shocked me into reality.  Being an out of shape old guy I was lucky to survive, but they went easy on me.

Joe

sand_puppy's picture
sand_puppy
Status: Gold Member (Offline)
Joined: Apr 13 2011
Posts: 463
Laser Ammo--video arcade handgun practice

Has anyone used the Laser Ammo products to gain familiarity and comfort with their hand gun?  Some of the posters here have lots of military and martial arts experience, but not me.  I come at this skill set as a beginner--but one convinced that it will probably become important in the future.  I also bring a wife who is very sensitive and disturbed by a vision of a future full of violence and who cannot tolerate much practicing, rehersing or even envisioning that world. 

I am hoping that by putting a laser "magic bullet" device in our Glock 19s we can practice in our living room shooting red light laser pulses at 3" squares of reflective paper spread out on the oposite wall, during TV commercials, and become comfortable with our handguns and skilled with aiming, firing and rapid acqusition of multiple targets.  We will of course practice in our jammies, while eating pizza, with our feet propped up on the coffee table.  I am hoping that the video-arcade situational/emotional cues in this practice setting can help us gain these skills.

See the "magic bullet" Laser Ammo product below:

http://www.laser-ammo.com/Productsnew.html

And the "Trigger Reset For Glocks" below

http://glockstore.com/pgroup_descrip/4_Sights+and+Lasers/8076_Magic+Bullet+Laser+Ammo/?return=%3ftpl%3Dindex%26category_id%3D4%26_Sights%2Band%2BLasers%2F

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Travlin
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Apr 15 2010
Posts: 1322
Thanks for the links

Sand_puppy

This is a very well designed product that can be a great aid for developing skills.  Dry firing practice is invaluable for mastering trigger control and this enhances the process.  The price is reasonable and the product looks solid.  This also looks perfect for getting you wife more comfortable with shooting.

Travlin 

pinecarr's picture
pinecarr
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Apr 13 2008
Posts: 1607
Sand_Puppy and Travlin,

Sand_Puppy and Travlin, thanks for the links and commentary on the product.  Something like this would make it a lot easier for novices like me to get more practice-time in, and develop more of a comfort-level handling and shooting a handgun.  I appreciate that it isn't a replacement for practice time and instruction at a range, but it seems like good complementary practice to that.  Thank you for bringing it to our attention!

-I look forward to reading additional commentary on the product from others here as well!

pinecarr's picture
pinecarr
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Apr 13 2008
Posts: 1607
Martial arts versus Martialism

Aaron, I found your post on how many martial arts training is not necessarily geared to teach actual street-fighting skills to be really interesting and informative.  Given that, do you have any recommendations for types of martial arts (or other) training  that are geared to be more useful in actual fights?  I am thinking more for my son (preteen).

Thanks!

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Dogs_In_A_Pile
Status: Martenson Brigade Member (Offline)
Joined: Jan 4 2009
Posts: 2491
pinecarr wrote: Aaron, I

pinecarr wrote:

Aaron, I found your post on how many martial arts training is not necessarily geared to teach actual street-fighting skills to be really interesting and informative.  Given that, do you have any recommendations for types of martial arts (or other) training  that are geared to be more useful in actual fights?  I am thinking more for my son (preteen).

Thanks!

Hiya pinecarr -

I hope you don't mind me jumping in on this, but I can offer an opinion with a 22 year background in martial arts.

Up until a year ago I would have jumped at providing an answer for a blended martial arts studio:  Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and some type of weapons art - Eskrima Kali, Pekiti tersia - that covers a variety of weapons and empty handed techniques.

However, I have to couch the answer based on the training I have been doing for the past year.  What do you mean by "actual fight"?  Do you mean the anti-social drunk at a bar or cut off guy at the WalMart parking lot?  That guy probably wants to bluff and bluster, maybe a few punches will get thrown, but in the end he doesn't really want to hurt you (badly).  If that's the definition of "actual fight" you envision, then by all means, a blended arts studio that incorporates striking (hands, elbows, knees, feet/shin), ground fighting - since all fights end up on the ground, and some kind of weapons work is good.

However, this art is necessarily constrained by a socially acceptable rule set.  There is a rule set that is followed, there are techniques taught and learned that while effective in a street encounter, are limited because the injuries inflicted, while potentially debilitating, don't shut off the attacker's brain.

They don't teach you the mental aspect of dealing with an attacker who is bent on causing you severe bodily harm.  Even years of martial arts training can cause problems.  There is a well documented case of a skilled MMA fighter who got jumped by two guys in Vegas.  He quickly dispatched the first guy with a knock-out punch and ended up on the ground with the second.  He had him in an arm bar - the attacker tapped his arm and the MMA fighter let go.  The attacker then stabbed the MMA fighter a half dozen times with his newly freed arm.  Fortunately the fighter lived, but for all his skill in an octagon, his training let him down and easily could have gotten him killed.

I have been training with the Target Focus Training group out of Vegas/San Diego. 

http://www.targetfocustraining.com/

It is intense, it is brutal and it is effective.  It is one of the techniques the West Coast SEAL teams incorporate into their training.  The founder was in the last Phase of SEAL training when he ruptured his ear drums in a diving training accident and was subsequently medically discharged.

I don't think it would be a good first program for a pre-teen, but it is incredibly effective.  I hope I never have to use anything I've been taught as it is for the purely asocial interaction where your attacker doesn't give a rat's patoot about your well being - rather, he wants to hurt you badly, or even kill you.  Without watering down the message too much, the decision to utilize a TFT technique should be made with about the same level of scrutiny and rigor one would use in deciding to pull a gun and using it on an attacker.

So, after all that side bar, to answer your question about what is good for a pre-teen?  I would find a mixed arts studio that teaches striking, groundwork with an exposure to weapons (edged, blunt and empty handed).  Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and any of the Filipino knife or stick fighting arts (Eskrima or Lameco Kali, Pekiti Tersia) are a very formidable combination.  Krav Magaw is a very, very effective technique, but is a little light on the weapons training. 

All of my martial arts instructors focused on teaching two approaches to a fight.  The best way to handle a fight is to not be in one.  Then they teach the styles and techniques to use for when you screw up the first part.

My TFT instructors taught me how to handle the scenario where I didn't have a choice but to act. 

Violently.

After a year of TFT training I definitely wouldn't say it's "better" than my martial arts training.  But it certainly gave me a whole new perspective on how and when to utilize the tools in the tool kit.

joesxm2011's picture
joesxm2011
Status: Silver Member (Offline)
Joined: Mar 16 2011
Posts: 249
laser and reset trigger

The laser ammo looks interesting.

Depending on what you plan to buy you might consider this alternative.

The SIRT laser training pistol

http://nextleveltraining.com/

I also had purchased an automatic resetting trigger from One Source Tactical for $49, but I can't seem to find it now.  The one offered on your link for $199 might be better.

By the time you buy the laser and the reset trigger you may end up paying more than for a SIRT and with the SIRT you would avoid having to keep reconfiguring your gun.

pinecarr's picture
pinecarr
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Apr 13 2008
Posts: 1607
Kick-ass answer, Dogs!

Kick-ass answer, Dogs; thanks!  

I've  learned a lot about the nature of fighting from you and Aaron here.  I truly appreciate you both taking the time to help those of us without that knowledge to gain the benefit of your insights.  

Amazing how we repeatedly see how important it is to correctly understand a problem first, before one has  the insight needed to determine an appropiate solution!   

In answer to your questions about "what type of fighting", I guess I'd have to respond, "all of the above"!  I imagine the bar-fight or Wal mart mugger scenarios are more likely.  But its also the intense, brutal conflict -where someone is seriously out to do you harm- that I would like my son to learn to protect himself from.  I like your analogy about the different types of training and skillsets you've developed as being like different tools in a toolkit, each with its own use.  I think that is a useful way to think about it

Thanks for your advice!  I will re-scour my local area for training in one of the mixed arts disciplines you mentioned.  And I will take care to keep in mind what you and Aaron have said, to be wary about the limits of their application.

Thanks Dogs,

pinecarr

pinecarr's picture
pinecarr
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Apr 13 2008
Posts: 1607
Thanks Joe!

Thanks Joe; I will check out the SIRT laser training pistol as well.  Thanks for the link!

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