Expect supplies of guns and ammo to get very tight

Travlin -

None of what you experienced occurred in SE Virginia.  There was an initial rush to buy ammo, but there was never an instance where I couldn't find what I was looking for.  The only exception was S & W .32 semi for my Beretta PSF Model 1934 and that was more because .32 is not a commonly found round in this part of the state.  .22, .357, .380, 9, 40 and 45 were all reasonably priced and easy to find.  I don't recall any issues with any firearm shortages either - the only time I had to wait was when the local gun shop sold out of their M/LE discount allotment.  It was either wait for a re-order or pay full price, but it wasn't like the gun was unavailable.  I just had to decide if I wanted to pay $399 for a S&W M&P 40 or pay full price - so I waited.

I heard from friends in the Charlottesville area that 40 and .45 ammo was hard to find - but that wasn't an issue for me.  It may be that SE Virginia was the 5 CEP outlier, but we just didn't see here what you did.  My gut says it happened in some places and they got all the press because everyone knows 2nd Amendment issues are hot button these days.

Doug your question, " Could you be specific about "Obama's anti-gun record?" is either witty sarcasm or overtly Democrat dogma.

He's supported Chicago's gun bans.

He's appointed anti-gun Supreme Court Justices.

He was a Director at the rabidly anti-gun Joyce Foundation.

He supported legislation in IL that limited handgun sales to one a month.

He supports the reinstatment of the Clinton "assault weapons" ban.

Then, of course, there's Fast and Furious.  His administration's plan to facilitate the shipping of US guns to Mexico, knowing they'd be used in crimes on both sides of the border, in order to "create" evidence to support more rigid gun control.

Travlin, we're seeing the same thing in the Northwest.  Ammo, if you can find it, is going up in price.  AR 15s THE sport/utility rifle are also hard to come by at a reasonable price.  There are a few around a grand each, but that's stretching a prospective buyers' budget.  The thing that makes this really interesting is that this current trend is being created by "gun people".  When the general population gets nervous and decides to go by a gun "just in case", and they notice a shortage, then the frenzy will really start.

I really believe that with a gun and ammo should come training as a priority.  22+ years in the Army have shown me that training survives stress when "knowledge" doesn't.

I can't agree more with this part of your comments Xsabers. My father, a career cop, once told me "son, don't point anything at another person that you don't want shoved up your a**". Anyone who thinks they will be safe just by virtue of owning a firearm runs the risk of having it figuratively "shoved up their a**".

Without the training and practice of using a firearm under stress, a gun can become a liability rather than an asset. A novice, or even an experienced hunter might very well be able to protect themselves with a gun if they are lucky, but more likely, without having trained and practiced its use in a stressful self defense situation, there's a good chance they'll make some silly mistakes when it counts. Recreational shooting, target practice and even hunting do not prepare you for the kind of brain farts you will have if you're suddenly fearing for your life. Like Xsaber said "training survives stress when knowledge doesn't".

I'm not doubting that there are surges in buying, I just question the reasonableness of those who are doing the buying (including myself I suppose).  One encounter I had the morning after Chuck Schumer was elected Senator of NY.  I walked into a convenience store and heard the proprietor loudly declaiming that all our guns would be confiscated shortly.  That was 14 years ago and I'm still waiting with bated breath for the door to be knocked down by jack booted thugs with badges.

I know we are in the middle of another surge in buying.  Ruger suspended taking orders because they are so backed up.  From what I hear from a local gun dealer, he is still having problems getting .223 ammo, but other dealers don't seem to have that problem.  So-called assault weapons seem to be readily available, albeit pricey.  Bulk orders are still available at good discounts online.

My biggest objection is to the NRA and the way it tries to gin up a wave of panic whenever a Democrat is running for something.  I have to admit the tactics are somewhat successful.  I see NRA stickers on cars several times a day, but don't know to what extent that actually translates into votes.  Nonetheless, the laws have gotten looser, not tighter.  The NRA can count that as a victory.  I suspect that gun rights, next to Medicare and Social Security, is now one of the third rails of politics.  There are very few politicians who can successfully run with a blatant gun control plank in their platforms.  Even those few will do little because of the blowback they would encounter and the lack of support they would get in the various legislatures.  

So, gun owners, don't worry, you've won.

was tongue in cheek. Although never military I've burned many times more pounds of powder than the average civilian earning numerous state and a national 1000yd benchrest title. (i love all those moments of inertia, the integration of the differentials, balistics once got me excited)

smile inserted by an untrained redneck

I sincerely hope i'm not misunderstood 

Guys, 
This is starting to veer a little from the threads original topic, but I think a bit of drift is healthy. 
As such, I had some thoughts on this that I thought I'd share.

Training has become a huge buzzword in the firearms industry lately. Partially by way of market forces, but predominately created out of a genuine need, there are firearms trainers and training centers everywhere now.

What I want to touch on is not all training is good, and what I think is critically important in training is absolute chaos. *Most* training classes minimize chaos, and you'll find yourself under the instruction of a professional who has something that makes training and tools useful - that something being experience. This is totally acceptable - this training is meant for you to learn fundementals, and that's great!

Experience is no panacea. I know infantry veterans who served overseas who barely pass their rifle quals. Meanwhile, I know civilians who can throw down with a pistol or bare hands with impressive proficiency.

But experience differs from skillset and knowledge in that it can be shared, but not replicated. You can't experience what those infantry veterans experienced by way of listening to their stories. They have a unique charateristic on which they can build skill and mindset. They know how they're going to feel when rounds come in. They can train around that. The skilled civilian cannot. So, as with all things, training requires a balance of experience and application, if it is going to be of use.

Practical application, then, absolutely must be incorporated into your training. Can you get your pistol after being punched, clinched and taken to the ground? Do you want to access your pistol under these circumstances? 

I was in a fight in May, and another mild scuffle in December. Both cases, weapons were an absolute liability. Not because someone was going to shove it up my ass, but because weapons instantly escalate any situation. They change "ass kicking" to "potentially lethal", and that is a big transition. 

They both involved alcohol, and both were managed successfully with solid positioning and clinches. The standing portions in either case (which is where we all practice our shooting, right?) lasted seconds.

If you're not training to retain, reload, clear malfunctions and shoot from supination, and FUT (F'd up tangles), you're practicing for unlikely events. Experience in gunfighting doesn't mean experience in fighting. Experience kicking in doors doesn't prepare you for getting mugged by three or four bangers downtown, after leaving a show. 

So, when you go to train, think long and hard about how you spend your money, and what you want to achieve.

I see such a trend in people going to schools like Haley Strategic Partners, Pat Rogers EAG, or somesuch, taking "Fighting Rifle".
To what end? Are you a tier one operator?
Do you commonly find yourself in rifle fights, or see them as likely?

I recently saw a high profile school, Tiger Swan, say something I've been saying for years: 
There is no Tactics 201. It's all basics. It's mastery of basics. (Paraphrased)

I was tremendously happy, because there is a lot of boasting that comes from "training", but if you read between the lines on this statement, it's a "there is no spoon" statement. Learning the tactics is ok. Mastery of the tactics is great. Acknowledging that Tactics are nothing without skillset and mindset - now that's enlightening, and it's a tool we can use to forge ahead with our training. Mastery of basics is acknowledging the need for a foundation, and in acknowledging that a firm foundation is essential, we can infer that this is what we build upon.

Once you're schooled on the fundementals, your training should be situational as well as tactical. It should incorporate more than just firearms.

"Feel Good" courses that you can take to refine your fundmentals are fine - don't get me wrong - but 90% of what you're learning and applying can be praticed and honed on your own time, and verified at your own range. 

Don't stop learning because you've trained, and don't stop training because you've learned:
Focus not on what you've aquired, but what you're missing.

Cheers,

Aaron

If times turn tough, then having lead (ammo) may prove to be a much better fiscal investment than either Gold or Silver!

I'd suggest that everyone also research how to store their ammo so that it stays usable as long as possible because it could become very hard to acquire very quickly.

Plan ahead or you will end up being beholden to those that do...

Thought I'd inject a bit into the discussion here.

Have you seen gun laws at the Federal level become more restricted in the last 4 years? If you have, I'd like to be privy to that information, please.

In the meantime, as a counterpoint, I'd like to present a thought on Barack Obama:

Obama Has Largely Steered Clear Of Gun Debate (July 20, 2012)
"Gun safety advocates have expressed disappointment with the president's actions since taking office, particularly over his failure to fight for the reinstatement of the assault weapons ban. They pointed out Obama signed bills into law that allowed loaded weapons in some national parks and on Amtrak trains and the destruction of background check documents."
http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/20/politics/obama-gun-debate/index.html

It should also be noted that Barack Obama was a Senator from Illinois, he voted FOR an amendment proposed by David Vetter, to to prohibit federal funding for the confiscation of legally held firearms during a disaster. (This was in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.)

I think it's fair to say that it is unlikely that Obama will be able to go against Congress' House Republicans, a conservative Supreme Court that has struck down the D.C. anti-hand gun laws, public opinion, or legislatures and people in all the states that have expanded gun ownership rights, concealed carry rights, and passed "castle" and "stand your ground" rights. Not even in a so-called "unaccountable" second term.

On the other hand, we have Mitt Romney:

Candidates Show Little Appetite For New Gun Control Laws (July 26, 2012)
"[Dan Gross of the pro-gun control Brady Campaign] also noted that Romney supported an assault weapons ban when he was Massachusetts governor.... Asked about his stance in Massachusetts, Romney told NBC on Wednesday that the legislation he signed banning assault weapons 'was backed both by the Second Amendment advocates, like myself, and those that wanted to restrict gun rights, because it was a compromise.'"
http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/26/politics/gun-control-debate/index.html

Was the above news even surprising given Romney's past history?

Who can you trust these days? Where's Ron Paul when you need him? Oh yeah. Shut out by the last-minute-rules-changing RNC and Romney.

Poet

Well here we are, Dec 2012 and smack dab in the beginning of one of the worst runs on guns, ammunition and resulting shortages and Barry Hussein Obama hasn't even been coronated for his second term yet, just exactly as the post from Travlin in July said would happen.

So, is Travlin clairvoyant?  Hardly.  Most except the uninformed or agenda-driven hardcore left knew this was coming if he managed to get re-elected, what we didn't know was he would get such a gift as the tragic Newtown shooting to exploit to launch his pre-plannned second term agenda to gut the 2nd amendment.  Remember his former chief of staff famously quipped "never let a crisis to go waste".  

God help us and this country.

Wow! Way to make a delicate, entrance on your very first post!

I won't speak for everyone else as I have only been a part of this community for a short time, however, we have respect and civility here - it is the reason why we can have good, intelligent debates on touchy subjects, which are by and large without emotion, even with anonymous posters! Imagine that!

what we didn't know was he would get such a gift as the tragic Newtown shooting to exploit to launch his pre-plannned second term agenda to gut the 2nd amendment.

You sir, or madam, are despicable for even making the insinuation of the above quote. I would like to politely suggest that you crawl back under whatever rock you came out from under. When and if you evolve into a higher species capable of civilized discourse, by all means come back and visit.

Until then, you might like to consider the site you are on before you post again...don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Jan, a survivor of a school shooting.

Hi ao,

Thanks for responding with sensitivity. It is pretty simple. Just one word set me off: "gift". It was a very poor choice of words...

I can understand the reasoning behind this person's position, but all too often words are very poorly chosen and not thought through from the perspective of the receiver. There is no question that everyone with an agenda will try to score points wherever they can, even in the face of tragedy. But the suggestion that a school shooting was a "gift", no matter how it is intended, is highly inappropriate, and for me, highly offensive. There are better ways to score points.

I myself have at times been thoughtless with the written word, in that we always know what our own point of view is, but we do not always step back and think about how the receivers of our messages might be interpreting what we are writing. In this era of such turmoil and volatility, we would all do well to remember that.

In this instance,  eagle1889 made a mistake that was not easily overlooked because it struck my heart. I responded in kind...

Jan

As with most politically charged arguments/debates, sets of myths by both sides seem to accumulate.  Before they can be turned into reasoned discussion, it is important to demythologize both sides.  I think this opinion column is a good starting point:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-01/debunking-nine-myths-of-the-gun-control-debate.html

Just a footnote of my own on the video game myth.  My son plays some of those games and considers the whole notion of them resulting in real world violence ridiculous.  He plays on an occasional basis, but his HS friend and college roommate is nationally ranked in one of the games.  He's a terrific kid who, along with my son, are doing very well in college academically and socially. 

True, this is anecdotal evidence, but in this case it works for me.

Doug

P.S. Oh yeh, no reason to eat humble pie, the map I posted is still valid as far as I know.

The best list out there.  www.theburningplatform.com/?p=45712

1) You are going to have to explain the extremisms of the NRA for me to address this part.

I can't stand WLaP so I'll pass on that.

2) BHO has publicly stated that the public should not be allowed to own guns. His personal mouthpiece EH stated that civilians have no right to own guns ( which went against a unanimous opinion by SCOTUS). He has voted to ban buns. The gun ban bill proposed by DF includes cofiscation. BHO has voiced support for DFs bill. By eliminating provision for banned guns to be sold or transferred is a one-generation confiscation scheme. The government takes posession of said banned guns at the person's death. His voting record belies his mouth on defending 2A.

3) The gun show loophole is a misnomer, there has never been any requirement by individuals wishing to gift or sell their belongings to ask the governments permission. Registering all firearms is the only way control of transfers can be monitored. Many of firearms that are transferred between individuals have no serial numbers. Serial numbers were not required until the GCA1969. In our current 1.1T deficit, where will they find the money to implement this? The current NICS program for background checks is overloaded at today's level. The infrastructure must be completely revamped to carry the additional load of registering millions of guns. Stumbling blocks? Blocks are sure working to thwart all those pot smokers.

4) The definition of an assault weapon requires it to be a machinegun. No machineguns are included in the assault weapons ban nor were in 1994. Tom Diaz of the VPC defines an assault weapon as any semiautomatic firearm that can accept a box magazine. What number of rounds is low enough? 1? Zero? We did try that with the 1994 gun ban. It failed to affect crime.

What other exceptionally deadly implements are being referring to?

5) When the Federal 1994 Gun Free Schools Act was passed, Utah opted not to restict CCW holders from schools. Never been a problem.

6) skip

7) skip

8) The numbers have not really changed since then.

9) I've never seen any of those games. Is it possible that they desensitize people to death?

Is there really a vido game about Kindergarten Killers?