Straight Talk

Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming Next Isn't Pretty

Monday, November 29, 2010, 2:19 PM

"Straight Talk" features thinking from notable minds who you, the PeakProsperity.com audience, have indicated that you want to learn more about.  Readers submit the questions they want addressed and our guests take their best crack at answering. The comments and opinions expressed by our guests are their own.

This week's Straight Talk contributor is G. Edward Griffin -- political lecturer, film producer, and author.  In his best-known book, The Creature from Jekyll Island, Griffin details how money is created and exposes the anything-but-boring history of how the Federal Reserve came into being. The book provides one of the best explanations of how our monetary system works, as well as a prescient foreshadowing of the Fed's bailout of the financial system at taxpayer expense.  


1. Practically everything that you outlined in your book The Creature From Jekyll Island has come to pass.  Bailouts, increased centralization of power, all of it.  Now what happens?  We are having a hard time envisioning the current debt-based fiat money system surviving for much longer (let alone forever).  If not fiat money, then what?   What are the next moves for those who might wish to see the continuation of their extremely lucrative franchise?

GEG:   What happens next also is portrayed in my book, and it isn't pretty. It is a total collapse of the old order replaced by a command economy and a loss of meaningful personal freedom. All collectivist systems end that way.  There is no escape as long as collectivists continue to be in power and make the decisions.  A change to the Republican Party majority will change nothing except party label.  Most Republicans are collectivists, as are most Democrats. 

2. Robert Zoellick of the World Bank recently ruminated on the possibility of resurrecting the gold standard.  Some claim that there's not enough gold to serve this purpose; you've claimed otherwise.  Could you explain?

GEG:  First, the World Bank does not want a true gold standard because that would limit the degree to which local banks can lend money, and that would greatly reduce their ability to make money.  Beyond that, there is plenty of gold in the world, most of it not yet mined and/or in personal hoards, to supply enough gold to back our currency.  Scarcity of gold is what makes it valuable and why it is an ideal backing for money.  The less there is, the more valuable it is.  The argument that there is not enough gold is spurious.  Any amount will do, but a free market will motivate miners and hoarders to produce just the right amount to balance supply against demand.  The problem is not the amount of available gold, but the demise of the free market. 

3. In your book, you said that the various Central Banks and other world organizations want to get all countries onto a single global currency.  Then why are the governments and banks attempting to fix the current system through more money printing and stimulus?  Why not just let it collapse to hasten the demand for a universal currency?

GEG:  I believe that they do not want the national currencies to collapse until the global system is in place to replace it.  They are working on that now, and I feel that the time to jettison national currencies is drawing near. 

4. The Fed just celebrated the 100th anniversary of the “meeting that never happened,” that led to its creation, with a lavish party on Jekyll Island.  Some say they’ve achieved much of their original secret goals; some say the Fed won’t survive ten more years.  What are your thoughts here?

GEG:  In my view, they have achieved far more that they thought was possible when the Fed was formed in 1913.  They have every reason to celebrate.  However, the game has changed now, and I think the bankers now are ready to allow the Fed to become merely a second-level component of a global central bank.  If opponents of the Fed are successful, it will be abolished as soon as possible.  If they are not successful, it will last indefinitely as part of the global system. 

5. To what extent is the current economic mess the logical, expected, even mathematical conclusion to a debt-based money system, and how much is this simply due to operating it poorly?  That is, are we experiencing a design flaw, or operator error?

GEG:  It is a design flaw.  There could be no other outcome.  However, it is more than likely that the creators knew that from the beginning and proceeded anyway.  We must remember that the Fed is a banking cartel.  As such, its primary objective was never to stabilize the economy, but to benefit members of the cartel.  In that sense, it was not even a design flaw. 

6. Assume for the moment that oil drives economic expansion and that oil is a finite resource.   At some point the rate of oil extraction will peak and then decline.  Yet our entire financial edifice relies upon a constant (if not exponential) increase in debt.   If tomorrow's growth is the collateral for today's debts, and growth depends on oil…well, how do we square that circle?  What happens to (1) today's debts and (2) the money system itself (assuming it is deprived of dependable growth)?

GEG:  I cannot accept the assumption that growth is dependent on expansion of oil resources, or, if it is, that the supply is soon about to peak. That aside, expanding government debt and the Fed's role in making that possible is a classic Ponzi Scheme in that it depends on an increasing demand for money greater than the expansion of goods and services. This is not really growth; it is merely postponing the day of reckoning and increasing the size of the loss. 

7. How do you see the next few years playing out for the US economy?

GEG:  The patient cannot be kept alive much longer by administering more of the toxic drugs that cause his illness in the first place.  As long as the quack doctors (politicians and bankers) are retained to administer the therapy, there is no hope for recovery.  The exact time frame is unknown, but it is near. 

8. What question didn’t we ask, but should have? What’s your answer?

GEG:  What to do about it?

Answer:  Inform the people about the true nature of the crises, the true cause, replace all the politicians who have tolerated or supported the Fed, and then replace the Fed with an honest and responsible banking system without the ability to legally plunder the people.  Really quite simple, but not easy.  We have much work to do. 


If you have not yet seen the other articles in this series, you can find them here:

PeakProsperity.com readers can submit their preferences for future Straight Talk participants, as well as questions to ask them, via the Straight Talk forum.

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60 Comments

darbikrash's picture
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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

What a great list of questions, succinct, and to the point. Not so much the answers. More of the same, blame debt based lending (“there could be no other outcome”) , no relationship between economic growth and oil consumption, no recognition of peak oil, no mention of corporatism or inverted totalitarianism. And of course let’s not forget, the commies are coming. Then this pithy observation:

There is no escape as long as collectivists continue to be in power and make the decisions. A change to the Republican Party majority will change nothing except party label. Most Republicans are collectivists as are most Democrats.

Please.

This guy ought to read Xray Mikes’ thread and learn something.

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

G. Edward Griffin's response to Question 6 blows my mind. 

"I cannot accept the assumption that growth is dependent on expansion of oil resources or, if it did, that the supply is soon about to peak. That aside..."

"That aside"!?!?

"That" [i.e. the fact that there are limits to growth and they are imminent] is the defining feature which keeps me, and presumably many others, coming back to Chris' work.  It's almost insulting to how dismissive Griffin is of this line of thinking. 

I'll be honest though - Griffin's response doesn't surprise me.  Why you might ask? 

Well, just as a student who gets an A+ on an exam might conclude that he/she is brilliant instead of thinking that the exam was just really easy, so too do humans collectively conclude that it has been our intelligence alone and not our environment that has accounted for our "success."  

To be clear, I'm not saying that we aren't a very clever species.  We are.  But to think that our cleverness alone can explain our success is just hubris. 

It all comes back to what philosophers would describe as necessary & sufficient conditions.  Access to cheap energy (oil in particular) is a necessary condition for growth (under the current economic paradigm).  That is not to say that it is sufficient, but rather, that without cheap energy, growth won't happen (unless it is redefined somehow)

Whether it's an evolutionarily ingrained propensity towards anthropocentric explanations of our "success" or willful ignorance, I'm not sure, but I'm consistently amazed by just how few people acknowledge the centrality of natural resources in accounting for economic growth.  

I commend Chris for addressing what the vast majority of other analysts & commentators are either willfully or unknowingly blind to - Griffin being one of them.  

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

Quote:

I cannot accept the assumption that growth is dependent on expansion of oil resources or, if it did, that the supply is soon about to peak

Yeah, any predictive analysis of the global economy becomes a lot simpler when we just assume away issues of peak oil/resources. Especially when you also assume economic growth isn't even dependent on expansion of oil production in the first place.

Also, financial crises have occurred under gold standards in a "free market" economy, so his assertion that a return to gold standards and free markets will prevent future crises is wrong.

I hate the Fed just as much as the next person, but we shouldn't let that hatred blind us from economic reality.

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

I absolutely agree that an exponentially growing consumption of a finite resource simply will not last forever. Period.

However it is true as well that the Power Elite tends to fabricate global problems that demand  militarization home and abroad or increased global governance to deal with such issues. So if oil scarcity is to become a powerful mover that allows to achieve those goals, then why let the facts annoy you? By facts I mean either that there is significantly more oil than we are told or that there are viable alternatives. By "significantly " I mean that there was enough for at least a hundred years of comfortable exponential growth.

Frankly I really don't have a clue, but it is how this is going to be dealt with and publicly told that may give some clues in my opinion.  I just read with caution anything that on the surface looks like "another fear based promotion".

I am afraid however that if we really have reached or are about to reach peak oil, as long as the unavailability of an alternative helps to concentrate more power on Power Elite's hands (for example by making it easier to gain control of an obviously disrupted global population), such alternatives will be hindered from the top instead of promoted. 

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

for a very thoughtful and thought provoking critique of GEG's views of the gold standard, visit Bill Still's website and forum on monetary reform, where he posted the author's response to Griffin's criticism of Still's work:

http://z6.invisionfree.com/Bill_Still_Reforum/index.php?showtopic=206

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

First, I appreciate this series as well as Mr. Griffin being a part.  I'm a very big fan of his work as well!

But I'm rather disappointed in the lack of time he took to answer some very well worded questions.  He could have expanded any number of times on the questions but didn't.  In fact, some of the questions were quite a bit longer than his answers!  

I know people are short on time.  But this is such an important subject that more time and thought should have been put into his responses.(IMO).

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

But I'm rather disappointed in the lack of time he took to answer some very well worded questions.  He could have expanded any number of times on the questions but didn't.  In fact, some of the questions were quite a bit longer than his answers!  

I second that. Its almost like he texted it while driving.

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

I really don't consider Mr. Griffin worthy of the Straight Talk series. I can't take anything he says seriously after reading his book on Vitamin B-17 and cancer (see snake-oil video here). I personally value his work as much as I value the National Enquirer. 

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

I think that part of the problem is that we live in an age of specialists. GEG has decided to focus on The Fed -- and apparently vitamins.  I have no doubt that if he took the time to research Peak Oil etc., he would come to consider it a huge problem.  In a conversation with my mother today, she recalled that one of her high school teachers (in the mid-fifties) taught Algebra, Latin, Calculus, Government, and maybe another subject or two.  This teacher also had the audacity to tell the students that they were regressing.  Can you imagine someone this well-rounded teaching our high school students today?  She would probably tell the students what they could do with those distracting personal communication devices -- and be able to integrate it with a comment about the center of the solar system. : )  GEG is a victim of our specialist society.  We are all victims of the same.  To his credit, Chris M. took the initiative and incorporated more than one teeny, tiny slice of reality into his quest to define just why we should be concerned about the future.

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

I agree about the video and his answer on Peak Oil.  He has no credibility with me.

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

While I agree that the responses were, shall we say-- brief, I still enjoyed the read; and would like to thank those at CM as well as GEG for their efforts.

I can relate to the idea that growth does not have to be dependent on the expansion of oil resources; but, like many here at CM, I'm operating under the belief that it currently *IS*.  I suppose we all would have appreciated a little more substance to the dismissal.

As far as the timing of the peak is concerned, I suppose everyone is entitled to *just not worry about it* or to have a greater degree of confidence in the whole *oil that may or may not exist* part of the projections, huh? Many intelligent people I talk to are quite convinced that some politicians are going to stimulate the economy with some green jobs; and the transition to a 21st century utopia powered by hydrogen, solar, some corn 'stillins, and a few of Don Quixote's adversaries is right around the corner-- with nary a bump in the road. We'll see.

Of course, the important thing in this read was that GEG believes some major changes are brewing, even without believing peak oil is any sort of imminent threat. I agree with him in that I sort of lean to the idea that the powers that be are merely trying to paper over the financial/economic problem with the current system, as many actors-- both rational and irrational-- jostle for position in the next.

"May you live in interesting times", indeed!

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

If you have not read "The Creature" then you should in order to understand the depth of understanding this man possesses about the "vampire squid" nature of the international bankers and their grip on the world through cartel fiat money.   The bankers end game is world domination and if you have read Griffin you will see it unfolding as he has described.    

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

I agree with the previous post.  While I am not familiar with GEG's other work, having read "The Creature" I would not be dismissive of this man.

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

"Griffin has been a member and offficer of the conservative John Birch Society for much of his life, and a contributing editor to its magazine..." (Wikipedia). I recommend that everyone read his Wikipedia bio. He is a total conspiracy theorist, and sees conspiracies everywhere. Why is Chris giving a platform to this nutcase, instead of finding more people like Steve Keen?

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

Whenever I see a post number of 1 to 10, I cringe. I know that there is a high probability that we are going to either learn that there has been a new technology discovery that makes peak oil a non-issue, or that someone is a "nutcase" or a "fill-in-the-blank-derogatory-name".

As far as Griffin is concerned, I believe he hits some issues right on the head and he bangs his thumb on others. As Chris would probably say, do the research, then trust yourself. I have found much value in "Jekyll Island" and little value in some of his other work. I'm happy there are avenues where the GEG's of the world can be heard, and I'm disappointed he did not put a little more effort into his answers.

I would suggest future "Straight-Talker's" be advised to read past posts in the series before committing. They might be more prone to either step it up, or opt out. 

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

Hey SingleSpeak,

As one of the new posters with less than 10 posts-- and in the interests of not wanting to start out on anyone's "bad side"-- I feel compelled to point out that I am not pushing the "technology will prevent peak oil from causing any problems" argument. My comment re: intelligent people and a smooth transition was intended as humorous sarcasm.

Besides, aren't I close enough to 11 now not to cause any cringing? (<---- Humorous Sarcasm, *Wink Wink* )

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Peak Gold

"there is plenty of gold in the world, most of it is not yet mined"

Yeah right.....  http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/5989


Figure 20: Australia cumulative gold production & modelling for an ultimate of 17 kt.

Australia’s gold production has peaked in 1997, and its decline will continue until about 2060 if the ultimate is 17 kt.



Figure 21: Australia annual gold production & modelling for an ultimate of 17 kt.

But since 1940, Australia’s gold grade decline seems to trend towards zero around 2035, meaning that the 17 kt ultimate from the USGS is too high! Australia’s gold grade is now at 2 g/t.

Figure 16: Canada cumulative gold production & modelling for an ultimate of 12 kt


Figure 17: Canada annual gold production and modelling for an ultimate of 12 kt

Canada’s gold grade trend from 1955 to 2004 can be extrapolated towards 2035, but only to 2010 using the last 12 years!

Figure 11: US cumulative gold production and modelling for an ultimate of 20 kt.

US gold production has shown several peaks: 1852, 1915, 1940 and the last and largest in 1998. It seems unlikely that there will be another significant peak.



Figure 12: US annual gold production for an ultimate of 20 kt.

Gold production’s drastic decline is confirmed by the decline of gold grade.

Figure 4: South Africa cumulative gold production & modelling.

Annual gold production from South Africa is compared to the gold price and modelled with 4 cycles:



Figure 5: South Africa annual gold production & modelling.

Gold mine grade is a very important element of the economics of gold mining. The present linear trend of South Africa’s gold grade will reach zero around 2060, which makes our annual production forecast look optimistic with the 58 kt ultimate.

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Re: Peak Gold

I ignore CT in general because it leaves me feeling helpless and hopeless so that includes this interview.  Kennedy's conspiracy speech (tried to do the link 1,000 times) is intriguing however and I won't say CT doesn't/can't exist. 

Griffin loses credibility because of his response to peak oil.   He should have left that one blank.   Better yet, he should watch the CC and then re-take it.

Since the door has been opened a little wider, how about  a Straight Talk on chemtrails?   :)

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

I haven't read The Creature from Jekyll Island yet but recently listed to two podcasts where GEG provides a more in depth discussion (at this link or thru Itunes):

http://mcalvanyweeklycommentary.com/category/podcasts/page/7/

Based on the ongoing actions of the Fed today, this statement GEG made appears accurate:

We must remember that the Fed is a banking cartel.  As such, its primary objective was never to stabilize the economy, but to benefit members of the cartel.

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The Madness of a Lost Society

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

I took GEG's short-ish answer to peak oil as an indication that he'd not yet studied it deeply rather than someone who'd given it a period of solid inquiry and then dismissed it.  They are two entirely different positions.

While I am thoroughly unfamiliar with GEG's work outside of the fields of banking and the Federal Reserve, I will note that almost everything he described about the purpose and role of bailouts in the past has come to pass in this crisis.  I am too, reminded here that Linus Pauling, three time Nobel Laureate and chemistry genius,  is now chided for his strong advocacy for Vitamin C later in life.  What I'm implying is that sometimes a person's advocacy for something can diminish the appeal of their other work, and sometimes not.  The number of intelligent people that have been lured by the potential of vitamins is extraordinarily high and so I tend to give something of a pass on that field.  It's not the same thing as advocacy of something that displays a defect in critical thinking or a lack of basic morality which can impact my assessment of someone.

My approach, then, is to take what I will of someone's work and leave the rest.  As long as someone has a solid body of work and a proven track record in one area, it's rare that I will completely toss the baby with the bathwater.

In this instance, I believe everybody has something to learn from GEG's Jekyll Island work, especially as it pertains to the structure and functioning of the banking system and the rationale and mechanisms that lie behind the privatization of profits but the socialization of risks, otherwise known as "bailouts."

I certainly did.

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

cmartenson wrote:

I took GEG's short-ish answer to peak oil as an indication that he'd not yet studied it deeply rather than someone who'd given it a period of solid inquiry and then dismissed it.  They are two entirely different positions.

While I am thoroughly unfamiliar with GEG's work outside of the fields of banking and the Federal Reserve, I will note that almost everything he described about the purpose and role of bailouts in the past has come to pass in this crisis.  I am too, reminded here that Linus Pauling, three time Nobel Laureate and chemistry genius,  is now chided for his strong advocacy for Vitamin C later in life.  What I'm implying is that sometimes a person's advocacy for something can diminish the appeal of their other work, and sometimes not.  The number of intelligent people that have been lured by the potential of vitamins is extraordinarily high and so I tend to give something of a pass on that field.  It's not the same thing as advocacy of something that displays a defect in critical thinking or a lack of basic morality which can impact my assessment of someone.

My approach, then, is to take what I will of someone's work and leave the rest.  As long as someone has a solid body of work and a proven track record in one area, it's rare that I will completely toss the baby with the bathwater.

In this instance, I believe everybody has something to learn from GEG's Jekyll Island work, especially as it pertains to the structure and functioning of the banking system and the rationale and mechanisms that lie behind the privatization of profits but the socialization of risks, otherwise known as "bailouts."

I certainly did.

The above highlighted statement is probably the greatest shortcoming of many, many members of this forum!  So many smart people that have closed their minds to facts, because of their belief structure/system.

I still would have liked GEG to expand on his answers.  But as you stated doc, he's been a crystal ball to the future for many years.

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

Vitamins

I immediately thought of Pauling too. The recent documentary "food matters" goes into this area and makes some intelligent inquiry into nutrition, vitamins and modern health / pharmacy.

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Facts? Give Me A Break

LogansRun wrote:

cmartenson wrote:

My approach, then, is to take what I will of someone's work and leave the rest.  As long as someone has a solid body of work and a proven track record in one area, it's rare that I will completely toss the baby with the bathwater.

The above highlighted statement is probably the greatest shortcoming of many, many members of this forum!  So many smart people that have closed their minds to facts, because of their belief structure/system.

LR, Please cease and desist with this passive aggressive attack. I blew it off the last 20 times you made this statement, but I guess your going to keep writing it until someone responds to it. Here is my response:

Do I imply that you're an idiot for accepting as fact that which I perceive as marketing and/or hearsay? No, I do not, because I regocnize that it is a matter of personal judgement. Believe what you want to believe, I don't care. I was just stating my opinion. Why do you seem to care what I believe?

This discussion is a perfect example of how the use of conspiracy goggles not only distorts the truth, but in fact proves to be personally harmful. In his book World Without Cancer: The Story of Vitamin B17, GEG reports on the theory that cancer is the result of a nutritional deficiency, specifically a lack of a certain compound called Amygdalin, which is erroneously referred to a vitamin by the proponents of this theory. 

GEG spends much of the book "exposing" vast conspiracies of the drug companies to publicly dismiss the value of this compound for a myriad of self-serving reasons. The reader is left to infer a value to Vitamin B-17 based not on scientific analysis, but primarily on the conspiracy argument put forth by GEG in the book. Yet, here are the facts regarding amygdalin:

  • No controlled, double-blind study has ever shown that Vitamin B-17 has any effect on cancerous tumor growth.
  • The metabolism of Vitamin B-17 produces hydrogen cyanide, a deadly toxin.

Yet, GEG continues to profit from his conspiracy speculation, at the expense of the hope and health of thousands of sick people. So excuse me if I throw the baby out with the bath water in this situation. I guess I'm just a close-minded idiot.

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

JAG,

Thank you.

I'm an idiot too.

url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsWpSPBwA-w

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

The Discovery of Noah's Ark,

Written and narrated by G. Edward Griffin

Well at least he's not talking about aliens, oops!

Is there a Black-Ops cabal, even more powerful than government, using technology from alien civilizations?
Introduction by G. Edward Griffin -- Updated 2010 February 2

http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/freedomcontent.cfm?fuseaction=disclosure&refpage=issues

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Re: Peak Gold

It doesn't really matter how much gold is left in the ground.  There is always enough gold at the right price.  Once people break out of the paradigm that gold has a fixed price they will soon see freegold.   The price of gold will float to whatever it takes to back the dollar.

For more on the subject read...

http://fofoa.blogspot.com/

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Re: Peak Gold

dtm wrote:

"there is plenty of gold in the world, most of it is not yet mined"

Yeah right.....  http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/5989


Figure 20: Australia cumulative gold production & modelling for an ultimate of 17 kt.

Australia’s gold production has peaked in 1997, and its decline will continue until about 2060 if the ultimate is 17 kt.



Figure 21: Australia annual gold production & modelling for an ultimate of 17 kt.

But since 1940, Australia’s gold grade decline seems to trend towards zero around 2035, meaning that the 17 kt ultimate from the USGS is too high! Australia’s gold grade is now at 2 g/t.

Figure 16: Canada cumulative gold production & modelling for an ultimate of 12 kt


Figure 17: Canada annual gold production and modelling for an ultimate of 12 kt

Canada’s gold grade trend from 1955 to 2004 can be extrapolated towards 2035, but only to 2010 using the last 12 years!

Figure 11: US cumulative gold production and modelling for an ultimate of 20 kt.

US gold production has shown several peaks: 1852, 1915, 1940 and the last and largest in 1998. It seems unlikely that there will be another significant peak.



Figure 12: US annual gold production for an ultimate of 20 kt.

Gold production’s drastic decline is confirmed by the decline of gold grade.

Figure 4: South Africa cumulative gold production & modelling.

Annual gold production from South Africa is compared to the gold price and modelled with 4 cycles:



Figure 5: South Africa annual gold production & modelling.

Gold mine grade is a very important element of the economics of gold mining. The present linear trend of South Africa’s gold grade will reach zero around 2060, which makes our annual production forecast look optimistic with the 58 kt ultimate.

I do not understand your point, DTM.  If gold extraction rates are peaking at roughly the same time as everything else, then from its use as a currency perspective, that's perfect.  We want stable a currency/goods&services ratio so as to preserve purchasing power and avoid inflation, remember?

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

We want stable a currency/goods&services ratio so as to preserve purchasing power

If the quantity of gold is stable.. but the flow of consumable resources is likely to diminish.. gold will not preserve purchasing power.. it will buy ever less oil, ever less silver... ever less tuna,  ever less phosphate rock..

but (perhaps) the same amount of land..

Silver or copper on the other hand.. may well match the depletion rate.. or exceed it.

Is there a better proxy for oil ? Something with a better correlation for oil's stock / flow time profile ?

http://www.financialsensearchive.com/fsu/editorials/stangelo/2009/1111.html

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Re: The Madness of a Lost Society

gregroberts wrote:

I'd like to say this is way over the top.  Unfortunately, I can't.  Thanks for posting it.

Travlin

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

JAG,

You know it has nothing to do with being an idiot.  It's a matter of dissecting information as it comes.  Just because I don't agree with GEG's Vit B17 argument doesn't mean that I'm going to throw everything that he says out to pasture.  IMO, that's a very closed minded attitude.  You obviously don't see it that way.  I do.  

It would be like me taking your attitude/belief toward Gold/Silver, and making a judgement that you're an idiot.  Then not reading anything else you write because of that specific belief!  IMO, that would be dumb of me!

And it's all just opinion until there's written/spoken/video evidence to prove otherwise.  The shortcoming that I see most from many members here, is that they don't even take solid evidence as a form of proof, because of their belief system.

Peace.  

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

LogansRun wrote:

The shortcoming that I see most from many members here, is that they don't even take solid evidence as a form of proof, because of their belief system.

Peace.  

The issue lies in the fact that your definition of solid evidence is very different from those "many members" you so often chagrin.

Peace back at ya.

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

LogansRun wrote:

The shortcoming that I see most from many members here, is that they don't even take solid evidence as a form of proof, because of their belief system.

Peace

Tod -

Your quoted statement is absolutely 100% airtight correct.  I hope you realize that it is a knife that cuts both ways.

Your belief system is what determines what solid evidence is for you and you alone.  Sharing that belief system only makes you comfortable, it doesn't necerssarily make it right.

Nice to see you back posting.

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

LogansRun wrote:

The shortcoming that I see most from many members here, is that they don't even take solid evidence as a form of proof, because of their belief system.

Ok, I will bite. Can you give some examples of things backed by solid evidence that have been rejected?

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

plato1965 wrote:

We want stable a currency/goods&services ratio so as to preserve purchasing power

If the quantity of gold is stable.. but the flow of consumable resources is likely to diminish.. gold will not preserve purchasing power.. it will buy ever less oil, ever less silver... ever less tuna,  ever less phosphate rock..

but (perhaps) the same amount of land..

Silver or copper on the other hand.. may well match the depletion rate.. or exceed it.

Is there a better proxy for oil ? Something with a better correlation for oil's stock / flow time profile ?

http://www.financialsensearchive.com/fsu/editorials/stangelo/2009/1111.html

Since all the gold that's ever been mined is still available, I suppose you're right - point taken.  However, DTM is still wrong.  His implication is that since/if peak gold has come, it cannot function as a currency.  The truth is since most other things have also peaked or are close to peaking, gold's peak wouldn't make its function as a currency any less feasible.  

Not that it really matters anyway, since this is DTM I am trying to argue with after all.  I may as well take my collection of atoms and entropize elsewhere, while they still behave in some form of a collective consciousness.  Wink

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Re: Peak Gold

Farmer Brown wrote:
I do not understand your point, DTM.  If gold extraction rates are peaking at roughly the same time as everything else, then from its use as a currency perspective, that's perfect.  We want stable a currency/goods&services ratio so as to preserve purchasing power and avoid inflation, remember?

My point was that not only does he "not get" Peak Oil.....  he doesn't understand or seem to know about the concept of peaking.  Is he an economist by any chance...??  Wink

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

Farmer Brown wrote:
Since all the gold that's ever been mined is still available, I suppose you're right - point taken.  However, DTM is still wrong.  His implication is that since/if peak gold has come, it cannot function as a currency. 

Can you point to exactly where I said that...?  I think you're assuming a lot...

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

Seriously?  OMG.  Personally, I don't have the time to go through every "fact" that some members here will never see as fact, no matter how much evidence is brought forth.  This applies to the site itself as well.  So, if you'd like to do a search on the site for much of what's in the CT dungeon, be my guest.  But I'll leave you with this......

Take a look at this thread, in which DrKrbyLuv is told to no longer discuss the international banking cartel as such, but now we have GEG bringing the exact same issues on the front page of the site.  Hmmmm.  So what's truth and what's not?  It can change so damn fast, obviously.  So, what you may think of as "theory" today, could change to fact, very quickly.  But to discount it because of a belief system is IMO, wrong.  

http://www.peakprosperity.com/comment/87914#comment-87914

http://www.peakprosperity.com/comment/88041#comment-88041

And DIAP, sorry but, I was where you're at now, a long time ago (I know, you don't agree...and that's fine).  I was able to break free.  And IMO, I was much deeper into it that you ever were.  The truth is the truth, no matter who writes it.

We're now way off topic and I'd rather not get this thrown into the dungeon.  Doc said pretty much the same as I did, but he obviously owns the site.  I don't see anyone attacking his thoughts/opinions/statement.....I wonder why. 

Stan Robertson wrote:

LogansRun wrote:

The shortcoming that I see most from many members here, is that they don't even take solid evidence as a form of proof, because of their belief system.

Ok, I will bite. Can you give some examples of things backed by solid evidence that have been rejected?

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

Gentleman,

we are all blinded to some degree by our belief systems. 

The trick is to be willing to challenge as objectively as possible our thinking by absorbing and analyzing information that is contrary to the way we want to see the world.

Over the past year and a half, my belief systems have been challenged regarding the three branches of government, the political system, the banking industry, the malaise and fall of the economy, peak resources, etc.

That is one of the reasons I follow this site and appreciate CM's efforts as an information scout.

Do I agree with everything presented here.  Of course not.  And that's OK.  But it is important for me to lower my defenses to be able to consider new information.

The best way for that to occur is through respectful dialogue about the issues that are allowed on this forum.

Are there some realms probably best left alone.  Yes...avoiding topics such as politics and religion is healthy because of the low flash points associated with them.

And what can be discussed with respectful dialogue can increase.  For example LR's reference to the seeming nefarious federal reserve going from being to controversial to openly discuss to the man himself who wrote the book (so to speak) on the multinational origins of the our country's private central bank being a headliner.

I see that as progress and I am grateful for it.

Another important area in prepping for a different world lacking respectful dialogue on this site is growing a resilient community with the ability to respectfully and responsibly provide security for itself.  Because in a world of scarcer resources, not everyone is going to play nice.

Just my .02 and I apologize for the rambling on and hope I did not offend anyone.

Southerner

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

LogansRun wrote:

Seriously?  OMG.  Personally, I don't have the time to go through every "fact" that some members here will never see as fact, no matter how much evidence is brought forth.  This applies to the site itself as well.  So, if you'd like to do a search on the site for much of what's in the CT dungeon, be my guest.  But I'll leave you with this......

Take a look at this thread, in which DrKrbyLuv is told to no longer discuss the international banking cartel as such, but now we have GEG bringing the exact same issues on the front page of the site.  Hmmmm.  So what's truth and what's not?  It can change so damn fast, obviously.  So, what you may think of as "theory" today, could change to fact, very quickly.  But to discount it because of a belief system is IMO, wrong.  

http://www.peakprosperity.com/comment/87914#comment-87914

http://www.peakprosperity.com/comment/88041#comment-88041

And DIAP, sorry but, I was where you're at now, a long time ago (I know, you don't agree...and that's fine).  I was able to break free.  And IMO, I was much deeper into it that you ever were.  The truth is the truth, no matter who writes it.

We're now way off topic and I'd rather not get this thrown into the dungeon.  Doc said pretty much the same as I did, but he obviously owns the site.  I don't see anyone attacking his thoughts/opinions/statement.....I wonder why. 

Stan Robertson wrote:

LogansRun wrote:

The shortcoming that I see most from many members here, is that they don't even take solid evidence as a form of proof, because of their belief system.

Ok, I will bite. Can you give some examples of things backed by solid evidence that have been rejected?

In other words Stan, no he can't.

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

LogansRun wrote:

The shortcoming that I see most from many members here, is that they don't even take solid evidence as a form of proof, because of their belief system.

I know I've made this point many times before, but I guess it bears repeating in the face of your repeated judgment above.  It's not about whether a particular theory or observation can be proven right or wrong, its about whether or not one can act on the information to grow as an individual. In our world of information-overload, filtering out the unproductive information is critical to maintaining a viable mindset that can react to unfolding events effectively and efficiently. This process is less a function of belief-centric perception (though I'm only human), and more of a function of focusing on what truly matters to myself and my family.

With respect....Jeff

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

Stan Robertson wrote:

LogansRun wrote:

The shortcoming that I see most from many members here, is that they don't even take solid evidence as a form of proof, because of their belief system.

Ok, I will bite. Can you give some examples of things backed by solid evidence that have been rejected?

Stan -

I know you didn't ask me, but here is a good example of how some people respond to solid evidence and facts.

http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/what-world-are-they-spraying/39897?page=0#comments

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

plato1965 wrote:
If the quantity of gold is stable.. but the flow of consumable resources is likely to diminish.. gold will not preserve purchasing power.. it will buy ever less oil, ever less silver... ever less tuna,  ever less phosphate rock.. but (perhaps) the same amount of land..

I don't believe the fact that it's a constant while other things diminish reduces it's function as money.  I don't disagree that it will buy less of those goods.  However, those goods will have more value.  I think that makes gold even better because it's constant, it makes the relative value of other goods apparent and allows for proper utilization. 

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

Dogs_In_A_Pile wrote:

LogansRun wrote:

Seriously?  OMG.  Personally, I don't have the time to go through every "fact" that some members here will never see as fact, no matter how much evidence is brought forth.  This applies to the site itself as well.  So, if you'd like to do a search on the site for much of what's in the CT dungeon, be my guest.  But I'll leave you with this......

Take a look at this thread, in which DrKrbyLuv is told to no longer discuss the international banking cartel as such, but now we have GEG bringing the exact same issues on the front page of the site.  Hmmmm.  So what's truth and what's not?  It can change so damn fast, obviously.  So, what you may think of as "theory" today, could change to fact, very quickly.  But to discount it because of a belief system is IMO, wrong.  

http://www.peakprosperity.com/comment/87914#comment-87914

http://www.peakprosperity.com/comment/88041#comment-88041

And DIAP, sorry but, I was where you're at now, a long time ago (I know, you don't agree...and that's fine).  I was able to break free.  And IMO, I was much deeper into it that you ever were.  The truth is the truth, no matter who writes it.

We're now way off topic and I'd rather not get this thrown into the dungeon.  Doc said pretty much the same as I did, but he obviously owns the site.  I don't see anyone attacking his thoughts/opinions/statement.....I wonder why. 

Stan Robertson wrote:

LogansRun wrote:

The shortcoming that I see most from many members here, is that they don't even take solid evidence as a form of proof, because of their belief system.

Ok, I will bite. Can you give some examples of things backed by solid evidence that have been rejected?

In other words Stan, no he can't.

No Rick, 

That's not what I said, so don't put words in my mouth.  Unlike you, I don't find the need to be the site's security nor will I take the time to go through oodles of info to prove a point.....again, unlike you.  

I stand by my statement, that many on this site will not see the forest through the trees.  I'm to the point that I don't care whether the brainwashed ever awaken.  I have, that's all that matters.  

Adios!

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Re: The Madness of a Lost Society

Travlin wrote:

gregroberts wrote:

I'd like to say this is way over the top.  Unfortunately, I can't.  Thanks for posting it.

Travlin

Reminds me of the Story of Stuff project. There are a number of videos dealing with different areas.

The story of stuff

Electronics

Cosmetics

Bottled Water
http://storyofstuff.org/bottledwater/ 

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

LogansRun wrote:

I stand by my statement, that many on this site will not see the forest through the trees.  I'm to the point that I don't care whether the brainwashed ever awaken.  I have, that's all that matters.  

Adios!

Did he doubt or did he try?  Answers aplenty in the bye and bye.  Talk about your plenty, talk about your ills, One man gathers what another man spills.

Some come to laugh their past away,  some come to make it just one more day.  Whichever way your pleasure tends, if you plant ice you're gonna harvest wind.

The storyteller makes no choice, soon you will not hear his voice, his job is to shed light, and not to master

Once in a while, you get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if you look at it right.

My time coming, anyday, don't worry bout me, no.  It's gonna be just like they say, them voices tell me so.  Seems so long I felt this way and time sure passin' slow.  My time coming, anyday, don't worry about me, no.  Don't worry bout me, no no, don't worry bout me, no.  And I'm in no hurry, no no no, I know where to go.

Faring thee well now.  Let your life proceed by its own design.  Nothing to tell now.  Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine.

.......and we bid you goodnight

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Re: The Madness of a Lost Society

Can't comment on the other videos here, but "The Story of Stuff" has been debunked as dangerous propaganda here: http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/30932/

irongamer wrote:

Travlin wrote:

gregroberts wrote:

I'd like to say this is way over the top.  Unfortunately, I can't.  Thanks for posting it.

Travlin

Reminds me of the Story of Stuff project. There are a number of videos dealing with different areas.

The story of stuff

Electronics

Cosmetics

Bottled Water

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Doug
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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

murfster

Quote:

Can't comment on the other videos here, but "The Story of Stuff" has been debunked as dangerous propaganda here: http://www.glennbeck.com/content/article... 

Well, that certainly lends an air of credibility.  Undecided

Doug

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

I watched (and liked)  the Story of Stuff and I tried to get through the Glenn Beck sponsored critique, and all I can say is don’t waste your time with any of the Beck material. The Story of Stuff was a good piece,  the critique was the most juvenile, specious set of claims I think I have ever seen.

Once again, we learn that a very large group of people will stop at nothing to convince the rest of us that there is no energy problem, no reason for concern or change of any kind, and that anyone who might suggest that our collective behavior and lifestyle is unsustainable is some kind of whacko environmentalist.

“ How can there be any shortage of natural resources,  the Earth is 4,000 miles deep and we have only mined 15 miles”

Really, in part one that is one of the main arguments. What a disgrace. Dangerous propoganda indeed.

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Re: Straight Talk with G. Edward Griffin: What's Coming ...

Folks,

If I may weigh in for a moment, please be aware of the ad-hominem fallacy:

  • Person A makes claim X.
  • There is something objectionable about person A.
  • Therefore, claim X is wrong.

I discovered TCFJI by GEG many years ago and it was one of the key works that put me on the path of autodidactism.  I read it.  Then read it again.   I then found the audio presentation GEG recorded back in 1994 when he presented the core themes of TCFJI (you can hear a sample here or I have found it by way of torrent files).

I don't agree with every piece of work or opinion GEG has, but I think his work w.r.t Jekyll Island is outstanding.  It is clear GEG's work is heavily influenced by Eustace Mullin's work on the Fed's origins...some have said to the point of plagarism, but does it matter?

Most of us stand on the shoulder of giants who in turn stand on the shoulders of other giants.  These people built their bridges with their bare hands and we have the privilege of walking over it.   If we are dedicated, skilled, and persistant enough, we may contribute a truss or two.

Reading TCFJI was a "red pill" moment for me.  I still remember the hair on the back of my neck standing up, and my hands shaking at some points in the book back in the ancient days of 2004.  I cross-referenced.  I bought other books.  Audiobooks.  Podcasts.  Along the way I discovered teachings of Lysander Spooner, Mises, Paul, Hoppe, Mencken, Rothbard, the Tannehills, Molyneux, Iserbyt, Gatto, Veinotte, Nock, Block, so many others...and....Chris Martenson.

Where were these people all my life?!?!  I think the only time my education was interrupted was when I was in school.  SurprisedSealedCool

Just please don't feel you have discredit GEG's work.  Learn from it.  Agree with some points.  Disagree with others.  Let's just make sure we adhere to philisophic discourse with open curiosity, reason, logic, and empirical evidence.  After all, we don't like it when we attempt to educate others about the message of CM and are shouted down, snickered at, or have the glazed donut face looking at you when you are trying to explain.  Chris dealt with that too prior to using the Intertubes as a vehicle to get the message across and build this community and prove free markets work.  Why? 

Chris is not like some tenured professor who advocates free markets while relying on State violence to obtain his salary.   He puts his message out there in the hopes that people will be willing to trade a few sheckles for his work.  Value for value.  That's why I am a paying member.

If I sounded preachy, I really don't mean to be.  Most of us would agree with 95% of what the other has to say.  Let's not harp on the 5% of where we don't.   There are so few of us and we are spread so thin.

I think TPTB are nervous.  I have noticed a trend where when I flip on the "news", read a "news"paper, or come into contact with the voice of the Matrix, it seems to be getting more shrill to me.  Is it because I am more aware of the fishbowl they present to me, or is it because our Tax Farmers are getting louder as they know we are beginning to see the Farm?  Either way, it doesn't matter.  No army can stop an idea whose time has come.

It's an amazing age we live in.

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