Scout
I would probably be more likely to take your words seriously regarding your refutations of Peak Oil, if you actually posted links to actual research and news articles, with relevant quotes included prior to the links.
Poet
Note: With so much going on with Europe's debt crisis, the continuing disaster and economic contraction in Japan, and the potential for a very hard landing in the Chinese growth miracle (which is in the running as my favorite "black swan candidate" for 2011), I am going to return our attention to oil in this report. The next report will assess the developing and unfolding debt crisis that will drag down most of the developed economies at some point, and this report will provide essential context for understanding why this result is inevitable and when it will occur.
The only thing that could prevent another oil shock from happening before the end of 2012 would be another major economic contraction. The emerging oil data continues to tell a tale of ever-tightening supplies that will soon be exceeded by rising global demand. This time, we will not be able to blame speculators for the steep prices we experience; instead, we will have nothing to blame but geology.
Back in 2009, I wrote a pair of reports in which I calculated that we’d see another price spike in oil by 2010 or 2011, based on some assumptions about global GDP growth rates, rates of decline in existing oil fields, and new projects set to come online. Given the recent price spike in oil (Brent crude over $126, now at $115) and recent oil supply data, those predictions turned out to be quite solid (for reference, oil was trading in the low $60s at the time).
One part I whiffed on was in my prediction that the world community would have embraced the idea of Peak Oil by now and begun adjusting accordingly, but that’s not really true except in a few cases (e.g. Sweden). Perhaps things are being differently and more seriously considered behind closed doors, but out in public the dominant story line concerns reinvigorating consumer demand, not a looming liquid fuel crisis.
How the major economies can continue proceeding with a business-as-usual mindset given the oil data is really quite a mystery to me, but that’s just how things happen to be at the moment.
At any rate, with Brent crude oil having lofted over $100/bbl at the beginning of February and remained above that big, round number for four months now, we are already in the middle of a price shock. It may not be a perfect repeat of the circumstances of the 2008 oil shock, but it's close enough that the risk of an economic contraction, at least for the weaker economies, is not unthinkable here. Japan, now in recession and 100% dependent on oil imports, comes to mind.
Looking at the new data and reading even minimally between the lines of recent International Energy Agency (IEA) statements, I am now ready to move my ‘Peak Oil is a statistically unavoidable fact’ event to sometime in 2012, which tightens my prediction from the prior range of 2012-2013.
Upon this recognition, the next shock will drive oil to new heights that are currently unimaginable for most. First, $200/bbl will be breached, then $300, and then more. And these are in current dollar terms; any additional dollar weakness will simply be additive to the actual quoted price. By this I mean that if oil were to trade at $200 but the dollar lost one half of its value along the way, then oil would be priced at $400.
In 2009, I wrote a special report on oil that explored the interplay between energy and the economy. At that time, the stock market was in the tank, global growth was in a freefall, and things looked gloomy.
But I knew that thin-air money is not without its charms and that we’d experience a rebound of sorts. Here’s what I wrote:
I am of the opinion that these trillions and trillions of dollars, which, along with their foreign equivalents, are being applied to “ease the credit crunch,” will eventually find their mark and deliver what feels like a legitimate rebound in activity. All those trillions have to eventually go somewhere and do something.
For now, debts are defaulting faster than the various central banks and governments can inject new money and borrowing activity into the system. Banks aren’t lending because there are very few compelling loans to make, especially if future losses have to actually be carried by the bank making the loan.
But this won’t be true forever. Sooner or later, all the trillions of new dollars will trot out of the barn, begin to gallop, and then thunder off, creating the appearance of a healthy advance.
It will be a cruel illusion, though, as this stampeding herd of money is headed straight into a box canyon.
Money is only one component of growth. As we’ve strenuously proposed, energy is a necessary prerequisite for growth.
(Source)
Well, here we are a couple of years later, with those trillions and trillions out of the barn and stampeding off trying to create some real and lasting economic growth. As we score these efforts, it appears to us that the amount and type of growth that has been achieved is underwhelming, to say the least.
Housing remains in a serious slump, wage-based income growth is poor, Europe remains mired in a serious debt crisis, Japan has slumped back into recession, and the US fiscal deficit is a structural nightmare. Worse, GDP growth is relatively tepid and would be negative, deeply negative, without all the deficit spending and liquidity measures.
As predicted, all that thin-air money, once released into the wild, had a mind of its own and created a serious bout of commodity inflation, especially in food and fuel, which is now seriously impacting the poor and middle classes.
So it’s hard to call the trillions and trillions ‘well spent.’ I was hoping for better results.
Yet we can’t call the re-flation efforts a complete failure, as we are not in a serious, destructive deflation, and we’ve all been granted a bit more time to get ourselves prepared in whatever ways make sense. The gift of time has been invaluable, and for that I am grateful. But in terms of creating a true and lasting economic miracle? It turns out, once again, that 'printing' money electronically is no more effective than calling in the silver coin of the realm, making each unit slightly smaller, and then re-issuing it. Real economic growth has not been created.
What has happened is that false demand, spurred on by trillions in thin-air money, has also spurred on renewed demand for oil, hastening the day that a geologically inspired supply/demand mismatch will finally arrive.
We are driving at a high rate of speed into a box canyon.
Before we get into the specifics of where I think the immediate trouble lies in the world oil data, let's take a moment to look at the big picture.
There are a number of ways to look at the petroleum data. The one I prefer to look at is something called 'crude + condensate' (C+C), which leaves out things like ethanol and natural gas liquids, both of which are converted to 'barrel of oil equivalents' (BOE) and added to the C+C to yield total liquid fuels. The reason I like to focus on C+C is that this is mainly conventional oil, the cheap and easy stuff, and it gives us a better idea of where we are in the Peak Oil story.
Note: This next cluster of charts comes from data from the U. S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) that I am, frankly, uncomfortable with, so take them all with a grain of salt. The EIA upwardly revised the data for 2010 and added between 750,000 and 800,000 barrels per day of production to each month. This is the largest upward revision of which I am aware, and it's not yet clear to me why this occurred. Further, the EIA obtained some of that data from IHS, which is the parent company of CERA, the organization that best qualifies for the 'influential Peak Oil deniers of the decade' award.
And somewhat ominously, as suspect as the data may be, it has been an important source for decades for analysts, myself among them. Quite recently, the EIA has announced that, due to budget cutbacks, it will immediately terminate the collection and distribution of international energy statistics -- right at the exact moment they are needed most. Ugh. Very disappointing, and all due to a $15 million budget cut. (Source). This echoes the loss of the M3 monetary statistic, which turned out to be a perfect gold-buying signal. If this is a parallel event, it means that now is a great time to take Peak Oil more seriously.
A chart of C+C reveals that the world has been bouncing along in a channel roughly between 72 and 74 mbd since 2005:

Yes, a new high was made in December 2010 and was exceeded in January 2011, offering hope that the world could break out of this limiting band of production, but then production fell back in February due to the Libyan conflict. I have added a purple dotted line to reflect where the data will most likely be for March after subtracting out the Libyan losses and the Saudi cutbacks. As you can see, we will be right back in the 72-74 channel.
Some will be tempted to write this off to a temporary setback due to the unrest in North Africa, but such unrest has always been part of the equation: Iraq, Nigeria, Kuwait, and many other countries have experienced supply disruptions along the way due to war and/or civil unrest.
Note also in this chart that oil production fell off by more than 2 mbd as a consequence of the global recession between 2008 and 2009. From the lows in August 2009, it has since climbed more than 2.4 mbd to its current level.
Where did those gains come from? Can we expect more?
There's a very interesting story in here if we dig down one more layer. This next pie chart shows each region's relative contribution to the gains of 2.4 mbd that happened between August 2009 and February 2011:

In the above chart, I had to include negative percentages for two regions, which is an odd way to display things (how does one draw a negative pie wedge?), but it still all sums to 100%. I've included the negatives for comparison purposes and because they are important to keep in view. It's clear that the Middle East is the most important region; no surprise there. North America is about evenly split in gains between the US (Bakken) and Canada (tar sands), and Russia and China are the major players in their respective regions.
Taking the analysis one level deeper, here are the seven major countries that contributed 88% of the August 2009 to February 2011 gains (in thousands of barrels per day):

Saudi Arabia is the hands-down leader, being responsible for 700,000 barrels per day, or 29%, of the entire gains logged in that period.
There is a variety of interesting sub-stories that could be told across each of the other countries, but it's time to focus on the big fish.
Something is seriously wrong with the signals coming from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (KSA), and I am of the opinion that KSA is having geological difficulties that are preventing it from pumping more oil. Said plainly, I am of the mind that the KSA is already at peak.
One troubling bit of information is that Saudi Arabia justified its lowered oil output for March by claiming that the oil markets are oversupplied, even as Brent crude was perched above $120/bbl. There are several possibilities here:
Let’s start at the beginning of this odd tale. Early in May, the KSA said this:
Saudi lifts April oil output to 8.5 mln bpd-sources
May 01, 2011
DUBAI/KHOBAR, Saudi Arabia, May 1 (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia's crude oil output edged back up in April to around 8.5 million barrels per day (bpd) from roughly 8.3 million bpd in March as demand picks up, Saudi-based industry sources said on Sunday.
The kingdom slashed output by 800,000 bpd in March, due to oversupply, oil minister Ali al-Naimi said last month, adding that he expected production in April to be a little higher than March's level.
So the story here is that the KSA claims to have 12.5 mbd of total capacity. Therefore, meeting the Libyan shortfalls of 1.3 mbd should be simple enough; just open the taps and let it flow. Yet the KSA barely cracked the 9 mbd mark, briefly, before falling back to 8.3 – 8.5 mbd, telling the world that this was a purposeful response to markets that were oversupplied. That's one possibility.
Several analysts thought that perhaps the KSA was simply gaming the markets and trying to obtain the best possible prices:
Saudi unlikely to lift oil output quickly
May 3, 2011
WASHINGTON — Saudi Arabia is unlikely to boost oil production quickly to ease the rise of crude prices, because it needs high prices for its own increased spending, analysts at an international banking think tank said Tuesday.
After producing 8.6 million barrels a day in 2010, the world's leading oil supplier will only kick up production to about 8.9 million barrels this year, said analysts at the Washington-based Institute of International Finance.
"So far the production of crude oil in Saudi Arabia for the first quarter was around 8.7, 8.8 (million barrels a day). And recently some unconfirmed reports said that production dropped in March," said Garbis Iradian, the IIF's deputy director for Africa and the Middle East.
"So we don't expect crude oil production in Saudi Arabia will rise over nine million barrels a day," he said.
While it's possible that the KSA production limitations are a matter of trying to engineer higher prices, one person I trust is Sadad Al-Husseini. The former Aramco engineer, who has a lot of credibility in these matters, thinks that the production limits have more to do with the grades of available oil rather than any mercenary market tactics on the part of KSA.
Saudi Sweet Oil Supply Too Low to Offset Libya, al-Husseini Says
May 17, 2011
Saudi Arabia, the world’s biggest crude exporter, won’t be able to produce enough low-sulfur blends to replace lost Libyan output for refiners in Europe, said Sadad al-Husseini, a former Saudi Aramco executive.
The country doesn’t have enough Arab Super Light to create sufficient amounts of low-sulfur, or sweet, oil similar to Libya’s grades, al-Husseini, Aramco’s former executive vice president for exploration and development, said today by e-mail.
The basic problem is that each refinery is geared for a specific and relatively narrow band of crude oil feedstocks, with the specific gravity and sulfur content being the most critical factors. So it is not as simple as the KSA pumping more heavy sour crude to offset the lost Libyan production. This is yet another possible explanation, and it is far more believable to me than either oversupplied markets or a pricing strategy.
The somewhat shocking news that followed just a few days after the above article was the begging by the IEA for OPEC to lift production. Such a frank admission or plea has never been made before. Reading between the lines, we can suspect that a serious supply shortage is looming if more oil does not find its way to market soon.
International Energy Agency Urges Oil Producers to Lift Output
May 19, 2011
PARIS — Expressing “serious concern” about elevated crude prices, the International Energy Agency on Thursday called for an increase in world oil production. It was an unusual move that highlighted consumer countries’ frustration at the failure of oil-producing nations to lift output in the face of rising demand and tighter supply.
(...)
The agency’s monthly Oil Market Report, respected by industry practitioners, has recently been warning about tightening market conditions as supply has not caught up with strong demand.
Despite commitments from Saudi Arabia, the biggest producer, to use its spare capacity to increase output and replace the supplies lost because of the uprising in Libya, the cartel’s production is now running 1.3 million barrels a day below the level seen before the crisis, according to the I.E.A.
Although the New York Times has positioned this unusual call by the IEA as perhaps a bit of political maneuvering, I feel they missed the real picture by not spending more time characterizing the mismatch between supply and demand. If that's true, then we have a near-perfect repeat of the 2008 situation, where, in the six quarters preceding the oil price spike, demand exceeded supply in five of those quarters.
Confirming this view recently was Goldman Sachs' energy division, which said:
While near-term downside risk remains as the oil market negotiates the slowdown in the pace of world economic growth, we believe that the market will continue to tighten to critical levels by 2012, pushing oil prices substantially higher to restrain demand.
Events in the Middle East and North Africa are having a persistent impact, which leads us to increase our oil price targets. We expect that the ongoing loss of Libyan production and disappointing non-OPEC production will continue to tighten the oil market to critically tight levels in early 2012, with rising industry cost pressures likely to be felt this year.
We are now embedding in our forecasts that Libyan production losses will lead to the effective exhaustion of OPEC spare capacity by early 2012. Consequently, we are raising our Brent crude oil price forecast to $115/bbl, $120/bbl, and $130/bbl on a 3, 6, and 12 month horizon.
(Source)
There’s a lot in there, including the idea that the unrest in the Middle East will be persistent, that non-OPEC production will continue to disappoint (which it should, as nearly every non-OPEC country is past peak), and that the more globally relevant Brent contract is the right one to quote now when discussing oil, not the US-centric WTIC contract.
So count Goldman Sachs among those that are now calculating an imminent supply-demand mismatch.
The really big news is that the Wall Street Journal finally ran an oil piece (on the front page, no less) acknowledging the difficulties involved in Saudi Arabia regarding oil production and the extraordinary efforts that are now underway to boost production by unlocking their remaining heavy oil reserves.
The critical parts in this story revolve around the costs of getting this oil out of the ground (in terms of both energy and money), the decades it will take to get the oil out, and the clear implication that going after such oil tells us everything we need to know about where we are in the Peak Oil story in general (and specifically in Saudi Arabia). All the better, easier, cheaper grades are already drilled and in production. This is what's left:
Facing Up to End of 'Easy Oil'
WAFRA, Kuwait—The Arabian Peninsula has fueled the global economy with oil for five decades. How long it can continue to do so hinges on projects like one unfolding here in the desert sands along the Saudi Arabia-Kuwait border.
Saudi Arabia became the world's top oil producer by tapping its vast reserves of easy-to-drill, high-quality light oil. But as demand for energy grows and fields of "easy oil" around the world start to dry up, the Saudis are turning to a much tougher source: the billions of barrels of heavy oil trapped beneath the desert.
Heavy oil, which can be as thick as molasses, is harder to get out of the ground than light oil and costs more to refine into gasoline. Nevertheless, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have embarked on an ambitious experiment to coax it out of the Wafra oil field, located in a sparsely populated expanse of desert shared by the two nations.
That the Saudis are even considering such a project shows how difficult and costly it is becoming to slake the world's thirst for oil. It also suggests that even the Saudis may not be able to boost production quickly in the future if demand rises unexpectedly. Neither issue bodes well for the return of cheap oil over the long term.
The whole story is worth a read. I’ve excerpted quite a bit because there’s so much important information in there that I wanted you to see. Most importantly, the mainstream media in the US is finally waking up to the idea that all of the cheap and easy oil is gone.
They’ve not yet gotten to the appreciation of the idea of Net Energy, which is the real key to understanding why the future will not resemble the past, but they are edging ever closer. And they are beginning to circle around the idea that depletion in the fields that have driven the world’s economy for the past 50 years is a critical reality.
It’s not much of a hop, skip, and a jump from there to seeing it finally named for what it is: Peak Oil, otherwise known as the geological reality that will resist all efforts at human ingenuity and technology because it is a matter of finite limits, not of willpower or optimism.
One thing I thought the article did an especially good job of was actually delving into the engineering realities involved in the project. The article continues:
The Wafra project, however, is far more of a challenge than traditional steam projects. As in most of the Middle East, the oil at Wafra is trapped in a thick layer of limestone that also contains minerals that can build up inside pipes and corrode equipment.
An even bigger challenge is getting the two crucial elements for generating steam: water and a source of energy to boil it. Most successful steam projects are in places with easy access to relatively pure water and a cheap fuel source, usually natural gas. Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have little of either.
With no fresh-water sources in the Arabian desert, Chevron has been forced to use salt water found in the same underground reservoirs as the oil. That water is full of contaminants that must be removed before it can be boiled and injected into the ground.
Finding the energy to boil the water will be even tougher. Chevron could use oil instead of natural gas—literally burning oil to produce oil—but that would burn profits, too. So the company likely will be forced to import natural gas from overseas, an expensive process that involves chilling it to turn it into a liquid, then shipping it thousands of miles.
Some experts are shaking their heads.
The hurdles include mineral buildups, corrosion, water impurities, and the energy costs of heating all that water into steam. In short, getting this stuff out of the ground is going to be far more difficult and costly than prior efforts. End of story.
The reality involved in getting at the non-conventional oil is really just a story of declining net energy; the red curtain will extend down into the luscious green space that represents the surplus energy available to society. Less net energy means less economic activity and complexity. It means less growth. Below a certain level, it means no growth at all. And eventually it means persistent negative growth, a possibility not yet priced into any financial markets.
In some cases I have my concerns about whether these heroic efforts are worth the trouble at all. Perhaps we should invest the same amount of energy, talent, and expertise in energy conservation efforts and technological development.
At this point in the timeline, it's imperative for each of us to ask ourselves: how well prepared are we for this post-Peak Oil future? Part II of this report: How To Position for the Next Oil Shock explores the probable impact the next energy crisis will have on key asset classes, employment, and society in general. As we've shown above, we likely have little time left. Use it wisely.
Click here to access Part II: How To Position for the Next Oil Shock (free executive summary; paid enrollment required to access).
Scout
I would probably be more likely to take your words seriously regarding your refutations of Peak Oil, if you actually posted links to actual research and news articles, with relevant quotes included prior to the links.
Poet
Chris, your note just above the first chart suggests that you are unaware of reasons why EIA would upwardly revise the crude oil supply. It is possible that recent shale oil production across the United States is having a significant impact on U.S. domestic production. I'm seeing it first hand here in New Mexico and Texas and reading about it elsewhere. See http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/28/business/energy-environment/28shale.html?_r=1
As interesting as the subject of "peak oil" is, I'm convinced that the US will only do what is the cheapest and most expedient at every stage of crisis and decline, if that is indeed what happens. Similar to "global warming" there is no political payoff to acting preemptively (other than setting up a system that further taxes the status quo as an excuse), especially since the data easy to obfuscate. Personally, I'm most interested in seeing how people respond to it all, the "developing" economies in particular.
YOU KNOW, I HAVE NOT READ ALL THE POSTS, BUT IN MY OPINION SMALL DISAGREEMENTS ARE NOT WORTH SPENDING ENERGY ON! WE ARE AT A POINT IN CIVILIZATION WHERE WE HAVE THE ABILITIES TO GROW INTO SOMETHING BETTER AND YET WE SIT HERE AND QUIBBLE OVER THINGS WHICH ARE IRRELEVANT. THERE WILL BE A SMALL NUMBER TO SURVIVE AFTER 100 YEARS, SO GET YOUR MINDS IN AND AT A HIGHER POINT OF THINKING.
1
Some things that are facts from my perspective:
1) No one has been able to really explain accurately how much oil resources are available in the earth's crust.
2) We know they are not "fossil fuels" and did not come from decayed animal/plant life - which actually made no sense to me when I first heard it ages ago, but I swallowed the pill anyway (among several others)
3) The best and most logical position I can find is that oil/gas is not being depleted but that the amounts are likely vast and untapped. Russians ironically have away of cutting through crap like climate change and peak oil..They have likely put the most unrestrained effort into understanding it.
Scout, you have swallowed the wrong pill. There will be nothing to see here at this website until you give up what I believe I can say everyone here considers the purest form of fantasy: abiotic oil. You may as well be at a medical convention handing out brochures on eugenics.
I did not mean to appear arrogant - I guess it just comes natural.--smile. I did not think I have YOU ALL figured out - just most of the posts had a certain air about them. It is certainly about more than Peak Oil - I think the site is about alot more than that.. The Peak oil post caught my attention and that's where I started..
Like I said - no one here or anywhere else has even come close to proving the remaining oil is scarce or endangered - it's sort of like worrying about the sun becoming a red giant - to me anyway. No one here has shown data that I have seen coming close to conclusive about a real shortage - Rather the evidence goes the other way. I still believe in being conservation minded despite the failure to show a scarcity. I don't think I enagaged in a firearms dialogue - Protection of life and property is integral to any solution if one is serious it is not about "the firearm" but about the person. I was commenting about a particular persons comment about buying a gun - not the gun.. Good gun and shooting thread are abundant - not at all why I'm here. -
Google "Peak Oil" for yourself and start reading. I don' t need you or anyone to "take me seriously". I have nothing to prove .I can show you a bunch of links based on my reading, but I am not writing a research paper here, I am having a conversation. ( or trying anyway)
I stated a few facts on my reply ( at least as I see them now) Can you refute them with or without writing a research paper? Just tell me why oil is so scarce. Should be simple if it's such a forgone conclusion. And tell me why you think exploration is so tightly limited by the government.. What do they not want people to know? -- sounds like anti fact-finding. I am not disregarding Mr Martenson.. I just don't see his case in this topic as very compelling -not nearly as compelling as say .. this one http://educate-yourself.org/cn/oilnotfossilbfuel29sep05.shtml
OK there's a link.
Would that be the same medical convention full of doctors and pharmaceutical companies, and bureaucrats advising us to live on a diet mostly composed of sugar, heavily processed rancid oils, and artificial flavoring in order to stay healthy - but if that does not work (and it won't) we have all sorts of drugs to treat your diabetes, obesity, high blood pressure, CAD, cancer and depression from living on our government sanctioned diet - and don't worry our drugs are cheap (cause taxpayers subsidize them).. But then instead of dying of old age, we'll make you hopeful and put you through countless procedures, chemical treatments, radiation scans (that industry needs your money too).. ?? Not to change the subject, but your medical analogy is very timely and relates well to the matter at hand.
This seems to be a common strategy at this site -- I wonder where I have seen this before? You and others insist proof from me on my opinion, while you casually say I will find nothing here until I give up something you say I believe in.. I did not know I "believed" in it. Either it's a fact or not.. All along very little logic and no real rationale in the information as presented .. Just a lot of "everyone knows this and everyone knows that". I could just as gratuitously state that your opinion is fantasy too. The whole fossil thing is actually pretty fantasy-like to me.. Major flawed argument by you- just because 9 out 10 people here say X, does not make X true.. .
Classic..
Here's an article I find very well referenced http://climaterealists.com/index.php?id=6261
Quote
So scant is the evidence to support Heinberg and other western pro-fossil fuel theorists that in researching his article ‘The Evidence for Limitless Oil and Gas’ (Digital Journal), Bill Jencks reveals,
“I searched the internet including Google Scholar and there seems to be no ‘absolute proof’ or support from direct modern research for the Biogenic Theory of oil and gas formation. This theory—for want of a better word—seems to be greatly ‘assumed’ by geologists throughout geological research.”
Unquote
I just remembered we have at work a Russian-American engineer who used to work in the petroleum industry -- I will get that angle/opinion on this question next week.
I don't see a concocted problem being used as camoflage for worldwide manipulation of energy and 'people control' as a "small disagreement."
What "better things" would you like us to grow into by stiffling debate and open dialogue?
And what is your basis of estimate for the number of survivors in 100 years?
What is your "higher point of thinking" ?
I know what mine is and "it" makes me able to discuss this subject without fear of the future, or anything for that matter - including your ALL- CAPS typing..
Interesting. Hadnt heard about Abiotic Coal. Thats really cool and seemingly impossible. Im sure there is some perfectly great off the wall explaination about how that happens... Yet somehow not scientifically explained at all.
For oil, I would look for the expected Soviet decline in Oil Production, and then see that they are past peak as well. We will see how that plays out over time. There are many producers that appear to be turning the corner on production, so we shouldnt have to wait much longer for real impacts and statistics to bolster the peak oil cases.
I would also point out that the Majors ( Exxon, etc) only control around 7-10 percent of the oil brought to market. They are not in control of the price as your link suggests.
Have Fun with your NWO Conspiracy driven view of the world, we all have to choose the set of beliefs that make our predicament make sense, I am comfortable with the side of the fence that I have chosen. It seems more Data driven and less innuendo based then your path.
Scout, if I joined an oncological chat room and a couple of days later wanted to start posting about there being no such thing as cancer, I would anticipate having those beliefs challenged. Further, I would not suggest that all the oncologists needed to send me papers on cancer before I needed to actually cite my sources. If 9 out of 10 people believe something, it is pretty much on the 1 in 10 guy to put up or shut up, as they say.
Many, of not most, of the people here are contrarian thinkers or they would be getting their news from MSNBC. But you are ranging over the tiredest of tired, exploded theories and you are providing nothing but the traditional "the Russians have it all figured out" defense to that theory. At least you aren't over on the Oil Drum with this stuff, God help you.
I did not mean to appear arrogant - I guess it just comes natural.--smile. I did not think I have YOU ALL figured out - just most of the posts had a certain air about them. It is certainly about more than Peak Oil - I think the site is about alot more than that.. The Peak oil post caught my attention and that's where I started..
Like I said - no one here or anywhere else has even come close to proving the remaining oil is scarce or endangered - it's sort of like worrying about the sun becoming a red giant - to me anyway. No one here has shown data that I have seen coming close to conclusive about a real shortage - Rather the evidence goes the other way. I still believe in being conservation minded despite the failure to show a scarcity. I don't think I enagaged in a firearms dialogue - Protection of life and property is integral to any solution if one is serious it is not about "the firearm" but about the person. I was commenting about a particular persons comment about buying a gun - not the gun.. Good gun and shooting thread are abundant - not at all why I'm here. -
Google "Peak Oil" for yourself and start reading. I don' t need you or anyone to "take me seriously". I have nothing to prove .I can show you a bunch of links based on my reading, but I am not writing a research paper here, I am having a conversation. ( or trying anyway)
I stated a few facts on my reply ( at least as I see them now) Can you refute them with or without writing a research paper? Just tell me why oil is so scarce. Should be simple if it's such a forgone conclusion. And tell me why you think exploration is so tightly limited by the government.. What do they not want people to know? -- sounds like anti fact-finding. I am not disregarding Mr Martenson.. I just don't see his case in this topic as very compelling -not nearly as compelling as say .. this one http://educate-yourself.org/cn/oilnotfossilbfuel29sep05.shtml
OK there's a link.
Scout,
The article on this gentleman may help with your search for facts. M. King Hubbert - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I consider M. King Hubbert much more compelling and credible than Jerry Mazza. But that is just me.
I don't think anyone here is saying that oil is scarce, especially Dr. Martenson. The issue really has to do with net energy which is how much is left after you have expended energy to recover, process and make energy available to use.
There is data in the Essential Articles section of the site and the Crash Course covers net energy thoroughly if you are interested.I also suggest you check out Admiral Hyman Rickovers speech to the AMA in 1957 to get a feel for just how long this subject has been known about.
As far as the points you outlined in your earlier post, I don't see them as facts necessarily but they do qualify as beliefs and opinions.
Coop
I very much doubt we'll see oil above $200, in today's dollars. The world economy just couldn't take that and will more likely slip into another recession, thus crimping demand and reducing the price.
It's still not a pretty picture but I just can't see $200 oil for very long and $300, $400 oil is simply out of the question except, maybe on the black market after collapse.
Thanks for your response. I was not familiar with that term. I can see the problem now.
But is it worse than what we have in the US considering how well Canada weathered the financial crisis. They had a balanced budget for many years before the crisis, they have been paying down their relatively low national debt, and they have emerged from the crisis with the world's most stable banking system.
But see here that is exactly the problem. How did we balance our budget? How did we keep our banking system stable? We financed them by selling oil of course! What does that cause? A currency whose value keeps going up and up... and well, when you have a currency that can buy anything in the world, you stop making anything for yourself. Have you heard of anything "Made in Canada" recently? I certainly haven't... I can think of Bombardier, but what else? Not much of anything else of consequence AFAIK
See, that's the problem with the Dutch disease. In the end, after the crash and other countries stop buying our oil, everyone still loses their jobs
Samuel
Some things that are facts from my perspective:
1) No one has been able to really explain accurately how much oil resources are available in the earth's crust.
We know there is LOADS of oil in the earths crust and IF it all gushed out the ground we would have centuries of oil at our present levels of consumption...... but it doesnt gush out of the ground anymore and more useful questions to ask are:
-How fast can we extract it from the ground and get it into our fuel tanks (flow rate)
-What are the financial and energy costs to extract it from the ground and get it into our fuel tanks (energy returned over energy invested)
Any informed discussion of peak oil must include these questions
2) We know they are not "fossil fuels" and did not come from decayed animal/plant life - which actually made no sense to me when I first heard it ages ago, but I swallowed the pill anyway (among several others)
This is another irrelevant academic question. Even if oil is abiotic it might still take thousands of years to produce what we burn in a day.
I am still trying to figure out Martenson's true angle because the feel and person type I sense here is different than most preparedness / self reliance sites. Pardon me for expressing a generalization or opinion that this seems like the 'preppy, urban, cafe latte version of prepper sites.. To oversimplify, but maybe accurately - The country type/woods loving (mostly conservative or liberatrian) folks have been after these issues for decades (literally) and this site seems to be filled with many left leaning folks who are finally waking up and are rightly worried - but about the wrong causes of things - IMO anyway.
Even if we disagree on the source of the issue, we can hopefully agree that there WILL VERY LIKELY BE issues and we all need to get our houses in order.
Glad we agree on something. I think your caffe latte urban prepper site comment is very fair. Alot of people think being preppared for a dispruption to the norm is the preserve of crackpot conspiracy theorists (and those living in areas prone to natural disasters). Chris is trying to teach ordinary people of all political colours to prepare for resource depletion and shocks to a very fragile world economy.
To change the timbre of this conversation, is now the time to top off our farm tanks? Will the coming rout lower oil prices temporarily? Are the current prices as low as they're gonna be for a while? We've 6mos diesel on the farm with capacity for 1.5yrs. ie. I need 1500 gallons to top off storage.
Thanks guys,Robie(husband,father,farmer,optometrist)
Well,
I never thought I would be "taking sides" against peak oil. OK, actually I am not. What I want to do, is ask the folks here to be the contrarian that they say they want to be.
We have been told to question, everything. So, why do we accept with open arms the theory of "peak oil"?
Is there overwhelming evidence or just a tell-tale sign?
I look around and see that there is not a single thing in my live that isn't touched by oil. Even the idea of the internet is being made possible by oil. From the food I eat to the water I drink is delivered by oil. "Our way of life" just cannot exist without oil - and lots of it. I mean lots of it! With what would we replace this liquid genie that grants our every wish?
Perhaps, that is why this discussion is so visceral. I could hardly catch my breath when I really thought hard about what it would mean if the supply of oil dropped by say, 20%. How about even 10%?
What does it really mean that the Saudis have never produced more than 9mbpd? Can they produce 12.5mbpd? I don't know. I do know that the Texas fields are now nothing more than a mere shadow of their former self. Hey, I did not know that Pennsylvania was the birthplace of commercial oil production until I began to educate myself on "Peak Oil". What is Pennsylvania's oil production these days?
When I traveled abroad a few years ago I was able to turn and look back at the U.S. I was humbled What I saw was a bunch of spoiled little brats. You know, the type of kids, they have everything they ever wanted, gained off the sweat and hard work of their parents, only to ask and demand more. Now some kids of course, act like they know better and play nice, share their toys and even share some with the "poor kids". But when their motives are challenged, they act to their true form and the brat comes out.
Perhaps, we haven't reached "Peak oil," perhaps we have reached "Peak consumption." The children in the US. want more-more-more. But, now there are more children in the sandbox to play.
Said another way, there are 100 persons that are trapped in an air-tight room. It has just enough air to last long enough for 80 people to live long enough to be rescued. If all 100 continue to live, all will perish before help arrives. They all know help is coming. What do they do?
What do we do? Lets not stop those who question. Lets invite it so that we can, just perhaps, locate a small crack in that air-tight room that will allow us all to survive.
How in the world did we get into this discussion on whether there is Peak Oil?
How in the world did we get into this discussion on whether there is Peak Oil?
I consider that the level of interest/posts etc. regarding PO demonstrates how much a true predicament which has the potential to alter the course of civilization can stir our emotions. Certainly the full range of the Kubler-Ross scale is evident here. That in large part is why IMHO Chris established this site ........ increase awareness through discussion.
Unfortunately, as RNCarl pointed out in his post above where he likened the predicament to being trapped in a mine, our situation does only have outcomes and our actions or our inability to act will largely determine what that is.
In answer to Rncarl what immediately comes to mind is as follows:
1) Know you have a real predicament on your hands. (acceptance)
2) Lower the heartrate and prevent panic. (action - via conservation)
3) Use our minds to look for the cracks - (spiritual)
4) Work together to achieve the best outcome. (community)
5) Know that our best answers will come from a well informed group since each one of us can occasionally have an error in judgement. (humility)
That's my $.02 cents worth. Have a great memorial Day.
Coop
Scout,
Jack Kenney is one of the foremost promoters of the cornucopian version of abiotic oil theory in the Western world today. But does he have any scientific credibility? Here's a cautionary tale by another scientist, Werner Aeschbach-Hertig, who encountered Kenney in one of his research projects:
http://wah-realitycheck.blogspot.com/2008/09/old-story.html
Kenney told me about his ideas on the origin of oil. According to him, oil was not derived from biological matter, it was abiogenically formed in the deep Earth at high pressures and temperatures. I did not know very much about oil at that time (and I still am no expert), but I knew that this abiogenic theory of petroleum origin, made popular by Thomas Gold, was highly controversial. I wasn’t convinced, but I couldn’t really be sure. Only a bit later, when I had the samples analyzed and reported the results, I got a better idea of what kind of person this Jack Kenney was.
But first, a crash course in helium geochemistry (of which I am an expert) is needed. Helium in the air has a certain 3He/4He ratio (about 1 to a million). Compared to that standard, the isotope ratio in helium from the Earth’s mantle is about 10 times higher, whereas that in helium coming from the Earth’s crust is nearly 100 times lower. Thus, deep mantle helium and shallow crustal helium are easily and very clearly distinguished. Because Kenney thinks hydrocarbons come from very deep layers, he reckons that helium isotopes could help pinpoint oil reservoirs. In Flanders, he was looking for the high 3He/4He isotope ratios that are indicative of fluids derived from the Earth’s mantle. He wanted to sell the local government the idea to drill for oil there.
I understood that Kenney had hoped to find mantle helium. What we had measured, however, where very low 3He/4He ratios, perfectly typical for crustal fluids. There was not the slightest indication of mantle gases. This was what I wrote to him. But he did not accept that. He did not doubt the data, but he argued that even the slightest little bit of 3He that was present in the samples would be an indication of deep origin, and hence would justify to look for deep hydrocarbon sources in the area. We sent mails back and forth, but he wouldn’t give in. Well, we got paid and it was none of my business, after all, what he did with the data. I hope he couldn’t convince anyone to waste money on a multiply flawed and fake theory: First of all, there is probably no deep abiogenic oil, and secondly, even if it existed, the data did not give the slightest hint that it was to be found at that particular place.
So, I got my first taste of rather questionable theories paired with a willingness to commit outright fraud by an exponent of the petroleum business.
Well, your all wrong.
, Ok...kidding, but seriously, the gloom and doom as well as the "wheres the evidence" is both misguided.
Clearly, oil and gas will not last forever. That is just a basic principle of physics. Do I think we are at peak? ....personally....yes.
Having said that, do I think all these articles about planting food, buying guns and building forts are over the top....check yes on that one as well.
Lets look at some simple facts (happy to have anyone challenge my data)
The developed economies use oil much more intensively than the developing economies, and Canada and the United States stand almost alone in their consumption of oil per capita (see graph). For instance, oil consumption in the United States and Canada equals almost 3 gallons per day per capita. (The difference is these countries' transportation sectors, with their dependence on private vehicles to travel relatively long distances.) Oil consumption in the rest of the OECD equals 1.4 gallons per day per capita. Outside of the OECD, oil consumption equals 0.2 gallons per day per capita.
Lets extrapolate the data. There are just under 2 billion people that make up the OECD. The US and Canada is a rounding number in that figure. So 95% of the worlds population lives on just 1/2 the amount of oil the US lives on PER DAY. the other 2/3 of the entires world population lives on roughly 1/15 of what the average american lives on per day....that's 4 billion people folks.
Continuing.....2/3 of oil production is used for gas. Lets just say for example a 1970's crisis where people are forced to only buy gas on alternating days (Americans are very REACTIVE). That would likely initiate a dramatic shift where the little honda CVCC (or something like it) makes a MaJor comeback, doubling fuel efficiency almost overnight, or, said another way, dropping oil demand dramatically overnight.
I could go on and on...but it's likely that changes are coming, changes that will effect quality of life here in the US more so than most any other country on earth. But will it come to guns and foreging for a meal? That's a wee bit dramatic. I have a bridge that's for sale at a great price if anyone is interested.
On a side note, 13 million US children will experience hunger at some point this year. Maybe we need to focus what's already right in front of us.
On another side note, I think where this site really looses the major concept is everyones fixation with peak oil. What keeps me up at night is peak everything else!
G'Day, Just to add a cherry on this CM blog:
Whenever the #2 in OPEC starts to whinge, ya ought to listen.
Click on the above link.
Regards,
Woomera
Would that be the same medical convention full of doctors and pharmaceutical companies, and bureaucrats advising us to live on a diet mostly composed of sugar, heavily processed rancid oils, and artificial flavoring in order to stay healthy
Oh really? And where/when did you come across such a convention?
Classic....
Mike
Continuing.....2/3 of oil production is used for gas. Lets just say for example a 1970's crisis where people are forced to only buy gas on alternating days (Americans are very REACTIVE). That would likely initiate a dramatic shift where the little honda CVCC (or something like it) makes a MaJor comeback, doubling fuel efficiency almost overnight, or, said another way, dropping oil demand dramatically overnight.
That's all very well, but what if you are a family with two SUV's? AND you owe money on both vehicles, AND you can't sell them, certainly not for the remainf value of the debt...? What if you can't get your SUV to work to pay for a new small car?
On another side note, I think where this site really looses the major concept is everyones fixation with peak oil. What keeps me up at night is peak everything else!
Nothing much keeps me awake at night.... By the time I get to bed I'm too exhausted to stay awake!
I don't think this site is obsessive with PO as much as it is with wealth, gold, and silver personally!!
CMdotcom is about the three Es..... done the Crash Course yey?
Mike
Noodlydoo, it's not possible to double efficiency overnight. It takes 12-15 years (probably more now) to turn over the fleet. It would take years to see significant gains in efficiency. If the populace is reactive, instead of pro-active (and all indications are that it is), then you should be prepared for far worse impacts than you are. And remember that it will be al almost continual decline, once it starts, so doubling efficiency won't be enough, it will have to continue until virtually no oil is consumed. I know it's easier to believe that the change will be slow and relatively painless. If you want to continue believing that, then good luck to you, because you'll likely need it.
I think we can all agree at this point that world governments will continue to do the worst things they could coming into peak oil.
Trying to force the economy to grow by racking up bigger and bigger debts until it all falls apart is the only future I see right now. The recent majority win by the conservatives is proof of what people are looking for here in Canada. The number one thing on their chart "The economy!" My guess is that it's going to be a fast collapse as a result.
Jack, I'm taking steps now to leave the country, for good if need be. I don't think Canada is going to be in much better shape than the US when this thing goes down.
Thanks again for your insight. Do you think that I would be better off staying the the US? I plan to move to the Victoria area and will most likely work in an educational field.
Please tell me why you don't think Canada will do well with Peak Oil downturn. I am getting ready to move there next year. Am I better off staying in the US?
See....exactly what I was refering to. Exactly at what moment in time are we going to be "out of oil", or "short of oil". So I guess I might wake up this wednesday and suddenly....were out of oil? There is trillions of barrells of oil left. Is it probable that the economies of the world will start to feel the pinch between increasing demand and limiting supply....of course, its called price increases. As price increases, demand will decrease. Don't believe me, look no further than 3 years ago. As price increases, people will respond by driving less, buying fuel efficient cars, changing eating and consumption habits. Not because they want to, but because they have to.
Should people take prudent steps such as buying commodities and foregoing Hummer3's.....I think it would be prudent. But this gloom and doom, as if the end of the world is nigh. Where exactly is the world going to go?
Someone wrote about SUV owners not able to sell their cars and buy fuel efficient ones. Yes, that's true, the resale value of something that gets 14mpg is likely to suffer as we move forward, and ding dongs that made those poor economic decisions will suffer, but the earth will not stop rotating as a result.
I concede there will be changes as resources become more scarce, but I can't recall ever seeing a single (Positive) article on this website about substitution, enhancement or new technologies altergether that will soften the impact of these resources. And although we may not have the answer yet......the answer will likely lie in several technologies, like the solar mirror reactors. Easy to build, very efficient. Will it offset oil...no, but it will make up for some, as will other technologies. This is not an all or none scenario.
The reason the world is slow to change is that there is to much money still to be made in oil. As that changes, and profit centers change, we will start to see changes in innovation and adoption. We are already seeing it now. Smart car in Europe gets close to 80mpg using a mercedes turbo diesel. Because of silly politics, the same smart car in the US has a mitsubishi gas engine that gets 30 something mpg.
These changes won't happen by waking up some morning....there may be some supply shocks, but supply shocks usually bring a fairly rapid change in habits and consumption. Its just that we havn't had supply shocks here in the US in a long while. Other countries tend to adapt fairly quickly to such shocks. Why would be any different?
Much more likely is to see increases in living costs, gas, food etc, which will be experienced over time.....like right now. But rarely does anything in economics or economies move in a straight line. There will be increases and pullbacks. People will have to adapt, but I doubt, HIGHLY, I am going to wake up sometime this week and find the world has changed overnight.
PS. CM predicted oil prices would rise again. Hey....me too....that why I bought call options on oil. Wow...I must be a wizard.
Thanks again for your insight. Do you think that I would be better off staying the the US? I plan to move to the Victoria area and will most likely work in an educational field.
If you have no responsibilities that keep you in your own country (good job, children, sick relatives, etc.) it may still be a good strategy to leave your own country and try to make your life elsewhere. This way, if the SHTF in your new country, you can always go back to America, but you wouldn't be able to go the other way if America collapses... For reference, I live in Japan right now, but I may have taken the wrong bet, so, as the expression goes, your mileage may vary...
Samuel
There is trillions of barrells of oil left. Is it probable that the economies of the world will start to feel the pinch between increasing demand and limiting supply....of course, its called price increases. As price increases, demand will decrease. Don't believe me, look no further than 3 years ago. As price increases, people will respond by driving less, buying fuel efficient cars, changing eating and consumption habits. Not because they want to, but because they have to.
Noodlydoo
Yep. What you are missing here is that we already have a fragile economy with too much debt. That downturn you speak of in 2009 had very bad effects on everyone that will continue. We can still have lots of oil in the ground, but when supply can't meet demand, in an economic system that must grow to finance its debts, the wheels start falling off. As pointed out previously, this decline of supply will continually grow worse so it forms a vicious cycle. You are also missing the factor of Energy Invested Over Energy Returned. Price doesn't matter when it takes more energy to extract and process it than you get back. Also technology doesn't create energy.
View the Crash Course video, and then read the book. I understand where you are coming from, but you only have half the story.
Travlin
See....exactly what I was refering to. Exactly at what moment in time are we going to be "out of oil", or "short of oil".
NEXT YEAR? We won't be suddenly "out of oil", but I think next year we'll see ourselves "short of oil".
Well...... there's probably just ONE trillion barrels left. BUT that isn't the point, what matters is how fast can we get that trillion out, what will be the energy cost, and will it cost more than $120/150 which is the threshhold at which the economy tanks?
Why, nowhere of course! More to the point where will YOU be going, especially food wise?
That was me. Nice cliche, but again you miss the point...... If people can't afford to adapt, just how do you think they will fare? You dismiss this altogether without even seemingly thinking about it.... it's a serious issue don't you think? If I suddenly find myself unable to fill my car up, I'll just park it out on the street with the keys in the ignition, no skin off my nose. It's only a car, it owes me nothing, and I don't need it to survive. It's called abandoning the Matrix.
Hence the concern....... WHERE are those alternatives, capable of delivering the 30+ ERoEIs we currently take for granted. I ask again.... have you done the crash course, and in particular the energy budgeting bit. Because if you haven't you are not talking at our level here.
You can't make claims like that in isolation of the other 2 Es. Where will the money come from? Where will the resources?
It takes 60 to 90 barrels of oil to build any kind of car..... Before you even turn the key on! You want to replace the current fleet of ~1 billion cars, there goes 75 billion barrels.........
Much more likely is to see increases in living costs, gas, food etc, which will be experienced over time.....like right now. But rarely does anything in economics or economies move in a straight line. There will be increases and pullbacks. People will have to adapt, but I doubt, HIGHLY, I am going to wake up sometime this week and find the world has changed overnight.
Past shocks were nothing like what is coming. In the 70's and 80's, we still had three decades of growth left in the tank. No more. Quite likely, as of next year we will start to see declines. What you don't seem to understand is that we built the Matrix one brick at a time, as and when it was needed with ever increasing oil supplies, and dirt cheap to boot. Now you want to replace the whole lot in no time flat with decreasing energy that is constantly getting dearer to boot.
Good luck with that..... I've invested ALL of our wealth into getting ready. AFAIC, that's the only worthwhile investment left.
Mike
Noodlydo,
Reading your comments, I think you need to watch TCC again; this time in a quiet room. If you come to the same conclusions afterwards, then I applaud your positive outlook, and wish you the best of luck. Everything will be just fine. . .
Rector
Rector, Mike,
Thanks for the thougtful replies. I have watched the crash course. Nothing in there that I disagree with. I guess I take issue with the speed that many people on this board think that the end of the world will arrive. Then it dawned on me....rarely, I mean very rarely, does anything (war excluded) change so dramatically overnight.
Go outside....feel the sun on your face. Life is short....find peace.
PS. Some hopeful alternatives:
Algae based biofuels have been hyped in the media as a potential panacea to our Crude Oil based Transportation problems. Algae could yield more than 2000 gallons of fuel per acre per year of production.[1] Algae based fuels are being successfully tested by the navy[2]
$0.03/kw electricity production (in existance TODAY). Enough sun shines on the earth in 1 hour to power the planet for 1 year. http://tinyurl.com/3d3aqsj
Go outside....feel the sun on your face. Life is short....find peace.
You mean, like this........?
http://damnthematrix.wordpress.com/2010/10/04/powering-up-for-the-collapse/
http://damnthematrix.wordpress.com/2009/11/16/composting-the-permacultur...
http://damnthematrix.wordpress.com/2009/09/01/abundance-at-last/
http://damnthematrix.wordpress.com/2009/07/22/finally-zone-1-under-control/
http://damnthematrix.wordpress.com/2008/10/30/the-not-so-blank-slate-rev...
$0.03/kw electricity production (in existance TODAY). Enough sun shines on the earth in 1 hour to power the planet for 1 year. http://tinyurl.com/3d3aqsj
So then........ if this is so hot
why is Spain in so much strife?
It takes 60 to 90 barrels of oil to build any kind of car..... Before you even turn the key on! You want to replace the current fleet of ~1 billion cars, there goes 75 billion barrels.........
[
Where did you get these data from? I'm interested to read more about this.
Thanks
I think he got it from Scout ![]()
Claaaaaasic
$0.03/kw electricity production (in existance TODAY). Enough sun shines on the earth in 1 hour to power the planet for 1 year. http://tinyurl.com/3d3aqsj
So then........ if this is so hot
why is Spain in so much strife?
Extremely good point! I'm sure they could repay all their debts by selling this cheap energy to Germany... NOT
Samuel
Energy giant Royal Dutch/Shell will close its offices in Kazakhstan on May 30, after laying off its staff over the past few weeks. Shell is a critical member of the Kashagan oil project in Kazakhstan's section of the Caspian Sea - one of the so-called "Big 3" energy projects in the country. Shell's decision has put the future of the massive energy project in doubt, along with much of Kazakhstan's future oil expansion and ability to supply strategic projects like the Kazakhstan-China oil pipeline.
One of the largest oil fields discovered in the past 30 years, Kashagan is also one of the most technically challenging fields. It is located in the northern Caspian region, a hostile environment with more than 70 mile-per-hour winds and flying ice chunks the size of boulders. However, the lure of 30 billion barrels in reserves attracted many Western and other firms into the project. The consortium currently comprises Shell, Eni, ExxonMobil, Total, ConocoPhillips, Inpex and KazMunaiGaz. Kashagan received even more incentive to produce when the Chinese announced they would build a massive pipeline system across Kazakhstan and through China, with Kashagan as the source to fill the bulk of the multi-trunked, 1.2 million barrel-per-day pipeline.
Kashagan initially was meant to be running by 2007, but the consortium members underestimated the difficulty of developing the field. Costs soared, and the deadline for production was pushed back to 2014. However, around 2007, the Kazakh government began to follow the example of its Russian neighbor and target foreign energy companies, charging higher taxes and collecting fees for alleged violations while trying to increase government shares in energy projects. Kashagan was already problematic; the government's aggression made the production delays worse.
It takes 60 to 90 barrels of oil to build any kind of car..... Before you even turn the key on! You want to replace the current fleet of ~1 billion cars, there goes 75 billion barrels.........
[
Where did you get these data from? I'm interested to read more about this.
Google is your friend......
About three or four years ago, on the Oil Drum I think...... It takes 22 gallons of oil just to make one tyre! Then you have to mine at least 20 tons of overburden just to get the mineral ores that go into all the metal bits, the glass, the plastics, the foam in the seats, etc etc etc......
Most people have no idea what oil is used for. I was amazed to hear the other day that each and every Australian "eats" 66 barrels of oil a year. No doubt this holds true for Americans too...!
$0.03/kw electricity production (in existance TODAY). Enough sun shines on the earth in 1 hour to power the planet for 1 year. http://tinyurl.com/3d3aqsj
So then........ if this is so hot
why is Spain in so much strife?
Extremely good point! I'm sure they could repay all their debts by selling this cheap energy to Germany... NOT
Samuel
Here's an example of the economics of photovoltaics in an ideal location in southeastern France:
The article quotes a 70,000,000 Euro installation cost (about $100,000,000 US) and 26 million Kilowatt hours/year. Let's assume it operates maintenance free over it's quoted 20 year lifespan. Then our operating costs will be:
$,100,000,000/520,000,000 KWhr = $0.192/KWhr
That's with no maintenance or transmission costs. Actual costs are probably significantly higher. There's also the issue that solar is less reliable than coal and (especially gas) which can provide power when needed as opposed to only when the sun shines. Forecasting solar array output even a few hours in advance is extremely difficult. Trust me. I do it for a living.
Steve
Good info Steve
Again I would reiterate, why not use solar and wind power to produce hydrogen on site. Then you have reliable energy whenever its needed plus fuel to ship whats been prodused off site?
Yes I know that the conversion is inefficient but the source is "free".
$0.192/KWhr
Thanks steveyoung, when I saw the $0.03/kWh number I was thinking "I find that difficult to believe".
Again I would reiterate, why not use solar and wind power to produce hydrogen on site.
The problem is that you loose so much in the conversion. For instance this link says you end up with only 9% of your starting power. I haven't checked the numbers but they don't seem far off. PV wll probably never be the way to go for large scale installations - solar towers and updraft systems are more efficient.
Many of these large systems use heat to store the excess for later use instead of going through a chemical reaction such as with batteries/hydrolysis. The short answer is you don't do it because if your going to spend the money on a storage system you spend it on the most efficient/cost effective solution. Just because you can make something work doesn't mean it's wise. ![]()
On May 12th we released Will Natural Gas Fuel America in the 21st Century?. Written by PCI Fellow J. David Hughes, the detailed report argues that the natural gas industry has propagated dangerously false claims about natural gas production supply, cost and environmental impact. Our report calls into question the prevalent assumption that we have access to over a century of cheap and easy natural gas.
Will Natural Gas Fuel America in the 21st Century has been requested by local, state and federal agencies, media and concerned citizens worldwide. Since it’s release less than three weeks ago, the report has been downloaded over 11,000 times.
Today we are releasing three supplements to the report that we hope you’ll find of interest and value:
“Agriculture and Natural Gas” by PCI Fellow Michael Bomford
http://postcarbon.us1.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=311db31977054c5ef58...
“Problems and Opportunities with Natural Gas as a Transportation Fuel” by PCI Adviser Richard Gilbert and PCI Fellow Anthony Perl
http://postcarbon.us1.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=311db31977054c5ef58...
“Public Health Concerns of Shale Gas Production” by PCI Fellows Brian Schwartz, MD, and Cindy Parker, MD.
http://postcarbon.us1.list-manage.com/track/click?u=311db31977054c5ef582...
Samuel,
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions about Canada. I have been planning this move for my family for years and I want to be aware of as many hazards as possible.
I have not been able to figure out exactly what you meant by "but you wouldn't be able to go the other way if America collapses...". Do you mean that I would not be able to move back to the US from Canada if the US economy collapses and Canada's didn't? Does that circumstance create some sort of financial trap?
phillipsd
Here's an example of the economics of photovoltaics in an ideal location in southeastern France:
The article quotes a 70,000,000 Euro installation cost (about $100,000,000 US) and 26 million Kilowatt hours/year. Let's assume it operates maintenance free over it's quoted 20 year lifespan. Then our operating costs will be:
$,100,000,000/520,000,000 KWhr = $0.192/KWhr
Thanks! But let's remember that noodlydoo was talking about concentrated solar... Still, I doubt very much we would gain anything by concentrating the light all in one place, then distribute it all over the place over the grid versus simply placing all those panels right where we need the electricity in the first place.
That's with no maintenance or transmission costs. Actual costs are probably significantly higher. There's also the issue that solar is less reliable than coal and (especially gas) which can provide power when needed as opposed to only when the sun shines. Forecasting solar array output even a few hours in advance is extremely difficult. Trust me. I do it for a living.
Interesting, do you use computer vision to forecast cloud formations and such?
Samuel
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions about Canada. I have been planning this move for my family for years and I want to be aware of as many hazards as possible.
I have not been able to figure out exactly what you meant by "but you wouldn't be able to go the other way if America collapses...". Do you mean that I would not be able to move back to the US from Canada if the US economy collapses and Canada's didn't? Does that circumstance create some sort of financial trap?
No, as a citizen you can always go back to America, that's the point. Let's consider today's Mexico and America, for example. American citizens can go visit Mexico anytime they want, without any visa whatsoever. But Mexicans need to apply for a visa before entering America, even as a simple tourist (for Mexicans who still believe America's the place to go anyway). It's like that all over the world. Between countries of similar standards of life like Canada, America, and Japan, no one needs a visa to visit anywhere they want. But for countries whose standards of living are lower than America, citizens need to a visa to enter America.
So, imagine America blowing up, and you did not go to Canada: Too late. Unless America decides to invade Canada, no chance of getting anywhere close the border. But if you were in Canada, and it blows up instead, then you can always go back to America as a citizen.
But then again, Canada and America are so close physically and economically, I'm not so sure it will make any difference... America has problems controlling its Mexican border, imagine Canada, whose population is 10 times smaller than America, controlling its border. Eeesh, not a pretty picture
Samuel
Here's an example of the economics of photovoltaics in an ideal location in southeastern France:
The article quotes a 70,000,000 Euro installation cost (about $100,000,000 US) and 26 million Kilowatt hours/year. Let's assume it operates maintenance free over it's quoted 20 year lifespan. Then our operating costs will be:
$,100,000,000/520,000,000 KWhr = $0.192/KWhr
Thanks! But let's remember that noodlydoo was talking about concentrated solar... Still, I doubt very much we would gain anything by concentrating the light all in one place, then distribute it all over the place over the grid versus simply placing all those panels right where we need the electricity in the first place.
That's with no maintenance or transmission costs. Actual costs are probably significantly higher. There's also the issue that solar is less reliable than coal and (especially gas) which can provide power when needed as opposed to only when the sun shines. Forecasting solar array output even a few hours in advance is extremely difficult. Trust me. I do it for a living.
Interesting, do you use computer vision to forecast cloud formations and such?
Samuel
Can anyone find numbers on concentrating solar? They do have the advantage of being able to store heat for overnight or cloudy period generation as well. The linked Wikipedia article in Rhare's post (#94) quotes an NREL estimate of about $.055/Kw hr by 2020, but I bet that would increase if the price of oil and raw materials went way up. Of course costs in cloudier and cooler climates would be significantly higher. I don't know which would be better, producing cheaply in the desert and sending the electricity long distance or producing it less cheaply nearby. In either case, there's a huge investment required to make a dent in total energy consumption in the time frame required to replace oil - power towers, transmission, electric cars, etc.
As for forecasting, we use Numerical Weather Prediction models similar to those used by the National Weather Service. We then use a customized statistical package to remove as many of the model systematic errors as possible.
Steve
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