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JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To Them)

Friday, January 14, 2011, 1:17 PM

Speaking of changing the rules...

Gold and silver are now down hard over the past two days, and the reason may have something to do with the fact that the CFTC utterly caved to JPM in their long-awaited decision on position limits in a 4-1 vote.

While position limits will eventually be set, maybe, someday, the course of action taken by the CFTC grandfathers in JPM's (and HSBC, et al.) current outlandish positions.

Here's the background (emphasis mine):

On July 21, 2010, the Congress passed the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act. Among other things, the Dodd-Frank Act amended the Commodity Exchange Act to:

  • Require the Commission, as appropriate, to limit the amount of positions, other than bona fide hedge positions, that may be held by any person with respect to commodity futures and option contracts in exempt and agricultural commodities traded on or subject to the rules of a designated contract market (DCM).
  • Require the Commission to establish position limits, including aggregate position limits, for swaps that are economically equivalent to DCM contracts in exempt and agricultural commodities (collectively, economically equivalent swaps). Such limits must be imposed simultaneously with limits on DCM contracts.

(Source

The only wiggle room in the Dodd-Frank bill is for "bona fide" hedge positions, which, I should state, I think is not a good idea because the exact definition of a 'bona fide hedge' is elusive.

For example, you and I could decide to engage in a massive short-hedged position where you short a commodity but buy calls from me. Your 'hedge' is only as good as my credit. Or perhaps you decide that oil and natural gas have enough negative correlation that you are 'hedged' by being equally short and long on both substances. What if your correlation blows out? You're not hedged, is the answer to that question.

Continuing into the meat of the new position limit ruling, we find these discomforting items:

The Commission’s proposed regulations call for:

Position limits to be placed on 28 core physical-delivery contracts and their “economically equivalent” derivatives.

Establishment of position limits on physical commodity derivatives in two phases:

  • Initial transitional phase: spot-month position limits only, based on deliverable supply determined by and levels currently set by DCMs.
  • Second phase: spot-month position limits, based on the Commission’s determination of deliverable supply, and position limits outside of the spot month.

Translation: Only the front month of any contract will be subject to the position limits initially. Later, at some undefined point "early next year," out months will be included.  But for now it's just the spot month.

Impact: Watch out for crazy out-month behaviors as JPM, et al. seek to skirt this rule.

Okay, that's not too terrible.  

But this is:

Spot-month position limit levels set at 25% of deliverable supply for a given commodity, with a conditional spot month limit of five times that amount for entities with positions exclusively in cash-settled contracts

That's just horrible.

For anybody like JPM that has no intent of taking physical delivery, they will be prevented from accumulating a position that is more than 125% of the total deliverable supply.  What sort of a limit is that??  That's like trying to limit the damage from auto accidents by 'limiting' freeway speeds to 'no more than' 175 mph.

Also, anybody who might want to actually buy the physical is limited to 25%, so any potential Hunt Bros. need not apply. The outer limits of this game have been exclusively reserved for speculators and manipulators.

That's not even remotely the outcome I was hoping for. This 'ruling' tantamount to saying "carry on!"

And what does 'deliverable supply' mean?  Does it refer to COMEX warehouse deliverables in current storage  or can special players receive additional preferential treatment by including 'deliverables' available to them via contractual arrangements with the LBMA?  Lots of questions are emerging for me here.

But it gets worse:

Exemptions for bona fide hedging transactions (based on the Dodd-Frank Act’s new requirements for such transactions) and for positions that are established in good faith prior to the effective date of specific limits adopted pursuant to the proposed regulations.

Translation: "JPMs silver position is in complete violation of even these generous new 'rules' so we're just going to let them keep it."

Impact:   Just check the price behavior of gold and silver for the impact.  The gold and silver markets have traded upwards of late in part because of the thought that JPM would finally be forced to play fair and reduce their outlandish precious metals short positions.  Nope. Guess not.

Once again, all sense of fair play has been abandoned in the interest of giving a special handout to a set of large banks that are reporting near-record earnings. When, I must ask, is enough enough?

The message that I receive from this ruling is that US markets are now hopelessly and irrevocably captive to the behind-the-scenes wishes of the banking class, for which "everything and then some" seems to be not quite enough.

Worse, an already-battered faith in the markets has been kicked again.

Here's my prediction: Someday the US commodities markets will experience a very painful set of failures, big banks will be caught on the bad end of that experience, and they will simply, once again, lobby to have the rules changed in their favor.

To everybody who hopes to make money by being on the opposite side of that trade, good luck collecting your winnings. They will simply be rule-changed right out of your hot little hands.

Thank you for playing sir, and sorry about your luck; would you care to try again?

The CFTC is now playing the role of Lucy holding the football. If you don't wish to be the Charlie Brown in this story, I'd advise that you take delivery.

Here's CFTC Chairman Gary Gensler describing the rationale, such as it is, for the CFTC's ruling [with my reactions inserted in-line]:

Position limits help to protect the markets both in times of clear skies and when there is a storm on the horizon. In 1981, the Commission said that “the capacity of any contract market to absorb the establishment and liquidation of large speculative positions in an orderly manner is related to the relative size of such positions, i.e., the capacity of the market is not unlimited.” [So far, so good!]

Today’s proposal would implement important new authorities in the Dodd-Frank Act to prevent excessive speculation and manipulation in the derivatives markets. The Dodd-Frank Act expanded the scope of the Commission’s mandate to set position limits to include certain swaps. [Still good]

The proposal re-establishes position limits in agriculture, energy and metals markets. It includes one position limits regime for the spot month and another regime for single-month and all-months combined limits. It would implement spot-month limits, which are currently set in agriculture, energy and metals markets, sooner than the single-month or all-months-combined limits. [Okay, spot-month goes first, before single-month and all-months combined.  Got that.  With the grandfather and 'bona fide hedge' exemptions of course.  Left that part out...]

Single-month and all-months-combined limits, which currently are only set for certain agricultural contracts, would be re-established in the energy and metals markets and be extended to certain swaps. These limits will be set using the formula proposed today based upon data on the total size of the swaps and futures market collected through the position reporting rule the Commission hopes to finalize early next year. ["Will be set?" Early next year? Isn't that a year from now?  Why so long?]

It will be some time before position limits for single-month and all-months-combined can be fully implemented. In the interim, if a trader has a position that is above a level of 10 and 2 ½ percent of futures and options on futures open interest in the 28 contracts for which the Commission is proposing position limits, I have directed staff to collect information, including using special call authority when appropriate, to monitor these large positions. [For silver, this amounts to some 5,300 contracts.  Well above the 1,500 contracts Ted Butler called for based on the 1% of world production limit.  It's too high.]

Staff will brief the Commission and make any appropriate recommendations based upon existing authorities for the Commission’s consideration during its closed surveillance meetings at least monthly on what staff finds. [Oh, so this is not a regulatory action, but a fact-finding mission? It's rather unusual to find a government body that takes care to under-interpret a congressional mandate for regulatory power, but we seem to have one in the CFTC.  Odd that such a loss of regulatory nerve only seems to occur when the interests of big banks are on the line...] 

(Source)

Let's close with a statement of regret by Bart Chilton, who tried very hard to do the right thing, but couldn't get the other four commissioners to see things his (and my/our) way.

Statement of Commissioner Bart Chilton at the 9th CFTC Public Meeting on Rulemaking under the Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act

January 13, 2011

As regulators, I think we have one key mission. It is embodied in the Commodity Exchange Act. We have a singularity of purpose to ensure efficient and effective markets and to prevent and deter fraud, abuse and manipulation. Quite frankly, I think we can do better. We can because the new Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act requires that we develop what many of us consider to be some fairly precious parameters.

Today, I am hopeful we will move forward to propose a position limits rule, a most precious parameter that we should have proposed much earlier in a way that would have implemented the provision as Congress intended. That's not happening.

Yesterday, eight U. S. Senators told us to move forward on limits. That follows two other senatorial letters from last month.

This is a Commission of five individuals, a group of people who make these decisions. That pretty much ensures no individual will get their way all the time. I'm certainly not getting my way on position limits, nor are the Senators who wrote to us.

I am thankful that we will have position points in place as a kind of glide path to position limits. As I've said repeatedly, points are not limits. However, they will help us learn more and do better as we go forward in further developing important—and precious— parameters.

(Source)

Thank you for trying Bart.  I am grateful for your efforts.  I wanted to give Gary Gensler, the former Goldman Sachs executive, the benefit of the doubt, and I did that.  All benefit and all doubt now removed.  Once a squid, always a squid, I guess.

I am still trying to get my arms around this ruling and its likely impact on gold and silver prices going forward.  Long-term this changes nothing, except to reinforce my conviction that I have no interest in playing in rigged markets.  

Further, given the opportunity to do the right thing in an open and transparent manner, the CFTC, quite predictably, caved to large interests - the same large interests that are helping to shape, if not drive, current fiscal and monetary policy.  

For more on rule changing, please read yesterday's piece, Don't Worry, They'll Just Change the Rules. I guess I should append the following to that title "...or decline to enforce them."

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49 Comments

pjvandal's picture
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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (to ...

&^)&^)&^!#$*(&#$*&@#$)(**@#$(*@#$*!@_)#$%&*Z!@)_#%&Z-0!@# gensler

!!

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (to ...

There are clearly two (or more) sets of rules for America. Once thought by the masses to be a nation of laws, these rulings clearly show a double standard. The dike is breaking....how many fingers do the governmental bodies have before the dam breaks and sweeps them all away. Anyone living downstream better go to high ground before the flood.

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (to ...

Excellent insight and thank you for sharing

freddie marx's picture
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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (to ...

    JPMorgan will always win!   JPM acts on behalf of and is protected by the Federal Reserve, and they, the Fed in turn collaborates with the US Treasury to rig the silver market.    The CFTC exists solely to legitimize their covert and sleazy operations.

  Overmore, these institutions also rig and manipulate the stock market, interest rates (long and short term) and probably a few more manouvers such as gold swaps,  all with the usual secrecy tru off-shore accounts.

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (to ...

Am I surprised? Not at all.

However, I am desperately sad for all of us who participated in the American experiment. With each passing day I see attempts to hide the awful truths of our economic and legal systems being cast aside by TPTB. It means the charade is no longer required and the masks can be removed. The opinion and the permission of the common person is no longer relevant.

I am beginning to wonder if they even bother to actually count our votes each November... or when they will stop. Is that a charade as well?

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (to ...

This probably a noob question, but do these position limits (or any pre-existing ones) also limit the speed or rate at which you can purchase or sell your position?  In other words, can JPM, HSBC, etc, exit their most or all of their position and pile into another one at a moment's notice?  And if there is a limit is it a direct limit, or an indirect one (like all trading stops after X percentage change in a single day)?

I'm just trying to get an idea how quickly this situation can realistically turn around when it eventually happens (whether weeks, months, or years from now).

- Nickbert

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (to ...

pjvandal wrote:

&^)&^)&^!#$*(&#$*&@#$)(**@#$(*@#$*!@_)#$%&*Z!@)_#%&Z-0!@# gensler

!!

I totally agree.

Thank you, Chris, for writing this update especially as it falls right after you wrote a lengthy report yesterday. This "decision" is quite the let down. Feels like a dark cloud is descending upon us.

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (to ...

+1

As someone who has sworn an oath to protect the Constitution, it sickens me to see our liberty slowly stripped away in the interests of favoratism, cronyism, and Marxism.

Silver_Dragon wrote:

Am I surprised? Not at all.

However, I am desperately sad for all of us who participated in the American experiment. With each passing day I see attempts to hide the awful truths of our economic and legal systems being cast aside by TPTB. It means the charade is no longer required and the masks can be removed. The opinion and the permission of the common person is no longer relevant.

I am beginning to wonder if they even bother to actually count our votes each November... or when they will stop. Is that a charade as well?

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

There is another way of looking at this.  While I would much prefer the rules not be so blantently changed for JPM.  You can look at it for the long term, small physical delivery investor - the JPM subsidy continues for a little while longer.   For the investor holding physical metal for a currency crisis, this latest news doesn't really have any effect other than to keep the price of metal suppressed so you can buy more. Smile

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

That's not the whole story though...this is an interesting take.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/bullionvaultcom-runs-out-silver-germany

"In the meantime, the CFTC's actions have succeeded in allowing the JPM's suppression of precious metals markets to continue indefinitely, yet all its actions have really done is to provide a short-lived lower cost basis for the precious metals as there is no indication demand is subsiding. At some point the margin calls will come. Then not even Gary Gensler will be able to bail out JPM (we wish we could say the same about Ben Bernanke to whom JPM's role as head of the tri-party repo clearing market is irreplaceable in maintaining an orderly shadow liquidity market)."

There's a lot of truth there...backstopped by Benny...don't fight The Fed has always been good advice.  Still, can the charade really continue forever?  Interesting times.

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

rhare wrote:

There is another way of looking at this.  While I would much prefer the rules not be so blantently changed for JPM.  You can look at it for the long term, small physical delivery investor - the JPM subsidy continues for a little while longer.   For the investor holding physical metal for a currency crisis, this latest news doesn't really have any effect other than to keep the price of metal suppressed so you can buy more. Smile

Yes...you beat me to it!

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

Thanks much Chris for your take on this very sad and pathetic development. Things get more dysfunctional by the day as the criminals are never held to account and only promoted.

The only way to fight the creeps is to take delivery. Once all physical is removed from the system justice will prevail and JPM will be held to account.

Class action lawsuits against the CFTC are in the cards for certain now.

Just a matter of time...

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

Reply to rhare...

I would just like to point out that for the past 2 to 3 years people have towed that same line:  the price suppression doesn't really matter 'because we can buy more of whatever at the lower price'......we have all heard it over 100 times, enough is enough and it is time to put an end to deceit and corruption NOW!   It's time for action, time to be heard and for civil disobedience, and  not do as they, our corrupt leaders do. We must initiate and instigate, not kick the can down the road as they do.    thanks.

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

You see, life is good when your top people are sitting in the White House with the Prez.   Probably  the CFTC figured there was no point in ticking off the new Chief of Staff.

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

freddie marx wrote:
and it is time to put an end to deceit and corruption NOW!

The way you do that is to expose the corruption.  A failure of delivery will do just that.  It will expose the paper market scam.  So buy some physical silver.

The delivery problem may rear it's ugly head sooner rather than later:

BullionVault.com Runs Out of Silver In Germany

US Mint Reports Unprecedented Buying Spree Of Physical Silver

Besides if your gonna get all worked up, do it about the Fed, corruption in the housing market (Fannie, Freddie), corruption in the stock market -  all those are so much larger than the PM market.

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

It's kinda sad that when I die and go to hell I probably won't get to kick the s#!t out of these guys because they'll be in the wing for the worst offenders. Well maybe Chilton and I can hang out cause he isn't so bad, at least unless he kills one of these other guys, then he might make it to heaven and I'll have to hang with Madoff or Greenspan.

SS

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (to ...

pjvandal wrote:

&^)&^)&^!#$*(&#$*&@#$)(**@#$(*@#$*!@_)#$%&*Z!@)_#%&Z-0!@#!!

Second that.

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

Chris,

Your growing disdain for the Banksters warms the cockles of my heart. I feel that holding PM's serves two equally important functions. Those being wealth preservation and passive resistance. The word will eventually get out completely and the fraudsters will be exposed. Really nice to see JP Morgan board alumi William Daley as Obama's new Chief of Staff this week. Oh and lets not forget Summers replacement from the Goldman Sack. I hear Twilight zone music.................

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

Watch CNBC now on the Enron Scandal...interesting...never thought this country could be this corrupt

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

Dr. M, 

You have done a great job at proving that this market has been thoroughly corrupted, but what I still fail to understand is why you support investing in assets that are priced by this market?

With respect....Jeff

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

Would this still work?

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

Al Qaeda hit the wrong buildings...

The government has truly become the enemy of the state; it is as if a foreign power intent on the destruction of the U.S. has completely taken over all functions of government and is implementing a plan that will, with unmatched efficiency, destroy the U.S.

For each new pauper with a gun that is created by the concentration of wealth in the hands of the sociopaths that are Wall Street, there is a fraction of a pauper with a gun that is loading the silver bullet that will bring the vampire squid down; lots of fractions normally add up to more than one ...desperation nourishes insanity; mass desperation feeds on itself...

Someone needs to figure out a way to communicate to Those of the Golden Cocoons the reality:  That they are kindling the mental fires that will burn them alive. All is not going to end well; there will be blood--and chaos.

And the sad truth is: Even if they (the new mafia, aka, Government Sachs) could be enlightened as to the reality of their destiny--change or no change, given that the remedy (give it ALL back and leave the country), is not going to be palatable, there is no non-lethal outcome available. This is very much a scenario like the the battle of Falkirk, in Braveheart: In order to live, Lloyd Blankfien and Jamie Dimon must stand before the Capitol building and simultaneously put their heads up the arse of an honest congress person; "Then, We, The People, will let you live..."

This tragedy has only just begun.

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

"Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves."

Hope this works to drive PMs down more since I am still adding some. Vodoo economics can't last forever LOL.

The blueprint for destroying a country....overextend the military (check), fiscal irresponsibility (check), devalue the currency (check), immorality (check), and export your jobs (check) . Without jobs there is no future.

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

Montana Native wrote:

The word will eventually get out completely and the fraudsters will be exposed.

MN,

With all due respect, they already have been exposed but no one, in the final analysis, has been willing to do anything substantive about it.  To be quite frank, if we look at historical precedents, situations of this magnitude of egregiousness have almost never been changed without violent upheaval.   

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

ao wrote:

Montana Native wrote:

The word will eventually get out completely and the fraudsters will be exposed.

MN,

With all due respect, they already have been exposed but no one, in the final analysis, has been willing to do anything substantive about it.  To be quite frank, if we look at historical precedents, situations of this magnitude of egregiousness have almost never been changed without violent upheaval.   

AO,

No worries, It's all about perception.........I know and you know about the transgressions of the financial elite. Ask my mother or the kid behind the counter at your local burger joint, absolutely no clue. When the general public figures it out things are going to get very interesting.......I live in North Idaho, you think people up here arent getting ready for violent upheaval....lol.

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

Montana Native wrote:

ao wrote:

Montana Native wrote:

The word will eventually get out completely and the fraudsters will be exposed.

MN,

With all due respect, they already have been exposed but no one, in the final analysis, has been willing to do anything substantive about it.  To be quite frank, if we look at historical precedents, situations of this magnitude of egregiousness have almost never been changed without violent upheaval.   

AO,

No worries, It's all about perception.........I know and you know about the transgressions of the financial elite. Ask my mother or the kid behind the counter at your local burger joint, absolutely no clue. When the general public figures it out things are going to get very interesting.......I live in North Idaho, you think people up here arent getting ready for violent upheaval....lol.

Terrorists use the tactics that they do i.e. hidden bombs, planes into buildings, sniping, etc. because they are pissed off about something and the people that they are upset with probably have a physical or military advantage over them. A few brave souls will stand up and face the opposition without regard to their own safety like the man in front of the tank near Tiananmen Square, but many say, "Why play fair when you are being oppressed, beat down, stolen from, lied to, tortured, imprisoned, or potentially killed by a government or an empire (someone else's or your own) that is clearly out of bounds?" 

So if you really want to have a war on terrorism, it might be advisable to leave people alone (at home or abroad) and quit trying to prove that you are the savior of the world and know what's best for everyone. This empire building thing has a history of bad outcomes, but nations that mind their own business(Switzerland and the Netherlands come to mind), seem to do ok in comparison.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this situation is probably going to get really messy (euphemism for violent) unless someone in the ivory towers starts enforcing the rule of law instead of using the current and expanding change-it-as-we-go, do-overs-for-my-contributors, screw-you-if-you-don't-like-it approach. 

Personally I'd rather go to work each day and save a little for the future and have it be there when I need it. Unfortunately, my government has succumbed to being ruled by banksters and that has made saving for the future more like playing a game of chess. Trouble is they keep changing the rules. 

SS

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

  @ leweke1

You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT....the apparent win for jpm @ the cftc is only a very temporary one!   By populations over the world taking PHYSICAL delivery of silver,  we will make sure that guys like wall street puppet Gensler and his team of trained seals, except for Bart Chilton of course, become irrelevent.      The charade shall soon come to an abrupt end !!!

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

Montana Native wrote:

No worries, It's all about perception.........I know and you know about the transgressions of the financial elite. Ask my mother or the kid behind the counter at your local burger joint, absolutely no clue. When the general public figures it out things are going to get very interesting.......I live in North Idaho, you think people up here arent getting ready for violent upheaval....lol.

MN,

I hear you.  I agree with you that the kids are generally clueless (unless they have parents like you and I).  Many of the elderly are more trusting of the government having grown up in a different time.  The majority of them are probably clueless as well but there's a substantial minority that aren't (but they also realize that their vote doesn't carry much weight any more and they are nigh on powerless both politically and physically).  I can tell you my mother isn't clueless though and when he was alive, my father certainly was not.  I remember him talking about the problem of the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Krupps, and other ultrawealthy power elite, shadow governments, and the military-industrial complex many years ago.

I think most of the citizens who are reasonably well educated and informed know there's something wrong but when over 50% of the country is feeding off the government teat in one form or another, these citizens may grouse and grumble but they're unlikely to slaughter the cow.  I know about you Idaho folks, lol, but, in general, you're a "fringe" group (and I use that term in a complimentary, not a derogatory fashion here) as are the folks in my area and many of the other lower population density outlying rural areas as well (where interestingly enough, "upheavals" historically often start).  However, until the urban masses begin taking substantive, coordinated, and focused action, nothing will change.  And I just don't envision any action being taken unless food deprivation becomes a factor.  Loss of homes and possessions, loss of jobs, loss of opportunity for the young, loss of entitlements, and even loss of life from fighting needless wars will cause much ire among the populace but I don't think anything will provoke them to the level of "upheaval" except potential or actual starvation.         

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

Large, peaceful, organised protest march on JPM, FED, Tres, GS, Deutche B, BofE, all complicit according to Bill Murray, in order to educate the vast unaware majority of what is actually happening.

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

I agree. I would actually prefer them to knock down the price more, so I can buy even more silver when my next paycheck arrives in a few weeks.

JPM, HSBC etc. might be successful knocking down the price in the short term, but not in the long term. Look at the past 10 years. They have been manipulating all over the place and yet Silver has gone up substantially.

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

Government of the banks, by the banks and for the banks.  Can anyone doubt what is happening when treasury secretaries and federal reserve chairmen keep swapping jobs with Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, etc. and the Fed?

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

@jbynes

I agree w/you entirely.....the forever revolving door between the Fed/Wall Street and Washington.

What needs to happen is some 30 million americans including many who depend on gov't handouts for survival, to march on Washington and litterally throw the bums out !!!          That, eventually will come to pass.

In the meantime, buy physical silver....remember 'yes we can'

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

This is the first post I have done on this site and I just like to say that it is great to engage with like minded people. I have been following Chris Martenson for over 2 years now and find his article on “The crash course” very informative.

In the UK I tend to post my opinions on various topics that relate to economic and political events on newspaper websites such as “the mail online”. However when reading comments from the general public it seems that they do not have a handle on the real problem. For example they moan that David Cameron is not tackling the bankers as he pledged to do. I am sure that the enlightened amongst us know full well, it is not in the interest for our Prime Minister to upset the banking elite as it’s a case of “I’ll scratch your back if you scratch mine”. We don’t tend to have statesmen anymore such as Thomas Jefferson; we have politicians with a short shelf life who quite frankly don’t seem to listen to the people anymore, that’s why the public are so frustrated.

Unfortunately I am very sceptical about our financial elite, I do not believe they serve our interest, Ben Benanke (chairman of the Federal Reserve), is debasing the currency with QE, awful for the average Joe, great for the banking elite and Wall Street. The problem is, at this stage, the general public have not educated themselves to understand fully the deceit that is going on.

JP Morgan may appear respectable to the average person, to be fair the average person does not understand the deceit that goes on behind the scenes, there are fancy names given to the practices JP Morgan undertake, and unfortunately it goes over the head of the average person.

I have bought physical silver, unfortunately I have to pay VAT on it in the UK, mind you I feel it is a great investment and if it continues to decline in the short run I will buy some more, no way shall I purchase paper silver, I believe that to be a scam, brings to mind “fractional reserve banking”, not enough in reserve if there is a run to exchange the paper for the physical asset.

I believe that as the dollar becomes debased, gold and silver will rise exponentially despite the rhetoric from the politicians claiming that we are in recovery.

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

Not every subscriber is a high-powered trader.  It would be most helpful if acronyms could be spelled out the first time they are used.  It would also be helpful to have an executive summary in plain english.  For example, what does all this mean?  Does it mean I should sell my holdings of silver (paper and real) and just forget it, or as some suggest, buy more as the price goes down, or what?  What is the point of spending all this time reading all this stuff if at the end I still have no idea what to do?  Thanks. 

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

mikefox wrote:

Not every subscriber is a high-powered trader.  It would be most helpful if acronyms could be spelled out the first time they are used.  It would also be helpful to have an executive summary in plain english.  For example, what does all this mean?  Does it mean I should sell my holdings of silver (paper and real) and just forget it, or as some suggest, buy more as the price goes down, or what?  What is the point of spending all this time reading all this stuff if at the end I still have no idea what to do?  Thanks. 

Mike,

Welcome to the site.  What acronyms don't you understand?  We'll see if we can help you out.  Have you tried Googling them? 

And FWIW, "the point of spending all this time reading all this stuff" is to give you some useful information for making your very own decision as to what to do arrived at independently based your own analysis and interpretation of the information at hand.  If you want to be spoonfed, you may want to reassess the wisdom of that approach.

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

ao wrote:

mikefox wrote:

Not every subscriber is a high-powered trader.  It would be most helpful if acronyms could be spelled out the first time they are used.  It would also be helpful to have an executive summary in plain english.  For example, what does all this mean?  Does it mean I should sell my holdings of silver (paper and real) and just forget it, or as some suggest, buy more as the price goes down, or what?  What is the point of spending all this time reading all this stuff if at the end I still have no idea what to do?  Thanks. 

Mike,

Welcome to the site.  What acronyms don't you understand?  We'll see if we can help you out.  Have you tried Googling them? 

And FWIW, "the point of spending all this time reading all this stuff" is to give you some useful information for making your very own decision as to what to do arrived at independently based your own analysis and interpretation of the information at hand.  If you want to be spoonfed, you may want to reassess the wisdom of that approach.

Well said, ao. 

Mikefox, if you list the acronyms you don't grok, no doubt kindly souls hereabouts will be only too happy to elucidate.

Maybe we should have a "commonly used acronyms" list.

But in the meantime, Mikefox, have at it --

Viva -- Sager

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

@ChrisMartenson

Chris thanks for unravelling the tortuous jargon and double speak from this meeting.  Good grief what a total sham.

Q: As the CFTC are mandated to implement Dodd-Frank and that means imposing position limits and doing so by mid January 2011 (my understanding) what sanctions will they face for non-compliance and what can be done to force the CFTC to comply with this Act?  This meeting simply catapulted the issue of position limits to next year when, if things carry on as they are doing, they'll delay it again for another 12 months.  Seems to me we have a clear case of the tail wagging the dog.

Thanks

PS:  There is at least one potential bright spot - if the CFTC is to collect data on and monitor positions larger than the 10% and 2.5% limits stated does this mean that there is at least the possibility that we might be able to get access to that data - so that we can name and shame - and essentially do the work of the CFTC for them?

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

Just like the SEC could not handle Madoff apparently the CFTC was unable to handle JP Morgan. I don't see where this outcome improves the metals manipulation at all. We had such goods hopes but should have known better. The US Government is only there to do the biddings of the big banks. 

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

The sentiments above are reflected across the land in North America, and history is replete with examples where money and power concentrates in the hands of a very few while the vast population becomes increasingly poverished.  This is always and everywhere a prelude to collapse.

Money is not everything, but when it becomes everything to a person or nation then all real wealth is lost.

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

Well stated and i agree.   The 'adults' with whom I work are basking and smiling because someone who 'cares' is in the Oval Office, and he's 'getting back at those bankers and millionaires'.

I teach at a public school.  The carnage is going to be awful.

Excellent post.

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

great explanation and thanks for the translation of that rubbish. Bart wants to fool the fools - like me. But did mankind deserve such criminals for government?

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

@ 438 miller

...Are YOU kidding me???         The man in the oval office IS the problem ....he has sold us down the river !!

The Prez is a fuzzy and cuddly little teddybear in charge of NOTHING.   The trio of deceit and corruption is Geithner, Bernanke and Dimon, and it is them and their cohorts who run the US and are bringing it to ruins in the process..........unless u r being sarcastilc.....you must wake up and smell the coffee !!

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

freddie marx wrote:

@ 438 miller

...Are YOU kidding me???         The man in the oval office IS the problem ....he has sold us down the river !!

The Prez is a fuzzy and cuddly little teddybear in charge of NOTHING.   The trio of deceit and corruption is Geithner, Bernanke and Dimon, and it is them and their cohorts who run the US and are bringing it to ruins in the process..........unless u r being sarcastilc.....you must wake up and smell the coffee !!

I think that he was saying that his associates believe that about the prez- not that he did.

Ken

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

@ Ken C

yeah ....well thanks for clearing that up for me; after re-reading his comment, u r probably right....many thanks for pointing it out....and, of course my apologies to 438 miller.......and if you'll both excuse, I'll go and take my medicatiion now........lolllll

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

The only way for small investors to play the silver market is to buy the physical silver, in coin form and from reputable dealers.I would suggest american silver eagles, canadian maple leafs,any coins from the perth mint in australia. Not only do i advocate buying physical silver for yourself, its a great idea to protect your children by giving silver as gifts on birthdays and christmas.We are all here because of the disgust we feel about the lack of action being taken by those regulators whose job it is to protect our interests as investors.We also know that the amount of silver above ground in physical supply is finite and fast diminishing.With the new uses for silver happening on a regular basis, future demand will far outweigh supply which becomes increasingly more difficult to find and recover.I imploe you to disregard what is happening in the nonsensical paper derivative arm of the market and concentrate on owning real silver.Silver is real money and always has been.I would just like to give a small example of why everyone should hold some silver.Lets take a 5dollar note in 2000 and 1oz of fine silver(approx $5 and put in a drawer.If we spent both in 2000 we could have bought about 7 litres of gas.But now in 2011 if i took out that $5 and bought gas in australia i would get 3.5 litres, but with my silver i would buy over 20 litres of gas.Governments have  a duty to protect the value of its currency but its slyly stolen from us via inflation.Dont allow this to happen to your hard earned money, keep as much as you can stored in the only real money,which has proven itself for thousands of years,physical silver.

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

Edited/deleted content that advocated violence

MAKE SURE u hoard as much physical silver as possible,,the battle we lost but the war we will win.

Edited/deleted content that was profane.  Note we don't allow either violence or profanity here as either/both can cause readers to lose access to this site from their work environments and, well, we like to keep things civil around here.

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

count me in!

Deleted for flagrant violation of board policy

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Re: JP Morgan Wins: CFTC Position Limits Do Not Apply (To ...

JP Morgan wins the chance to give us more time to accumulate.... I'm very, very cool with that ! If Blythe could knock it down to 4$ for a week ... I'd be ecstatic!!

Long may it continue.. until it can't... as Mike Maloney points out.

Speaking of Morgans...

  David Morgan at the recent  Cheviot - Sound Money Conference in London.

(see other sections for excellent  presentations by James Turk, Chris Powell and Dominic Frisby also... )

http://www.cheviot.co.uk/sound-money-conference/presentations/silver-monetary-and-industrial-demand

and..

http://www.cheviot.co.uk/sound-money-conference/presentations/why-gold-is-the-currency-of-the-free

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Bart Chilton interview on KWN

http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2011/11/4_Bart_Chilton_-_There_is_Manipulation_in_the_Silver_Market.html

“ We do a really poor job of communication at this agency.  People don’t respond to emails, we don’t put out information.  I think this goes back, by the way, to something that we were talking about earlier, are we captives of the exchanges or the banks?


I think by and large we haven’t been a very retail, consumer that is, focused agency.  Here’s what I can tell you about silver, Eric, I have been contacted, for years, by some folks that I think have a lot of credibility.  It’s one thing when they say this and that is going on and I check it out and maybe some of it’s true and maybe some of it’s not.  


But when people email me and say, ‘You watch the market (silver) between 9:15 and 9:45 tomorrow and it’s going to tank or it’s going to do this or it’s going to do that.’  I hold on to it and I watch the market and what they say happens, and I’m not saying this always happens, but it happens even 50% of the time, 60% of the time, there’s no way that doesn’t raise my antenna, like major, electric antenna goes up.


So to me that was the reason why I thought we needed to look at this (silver), investigate it.  That’s why I called for it, Commissioner Dunn also called for the investigation, but I can tell you based on what I have been told by members of the public and reviewed in publicly available documents, I believe that there’s been violations of the law, The Commodity Exchange Act.


They’ve taken place in the silver market and I think any such violation, of course, should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.  I believe there has been repeated attempts to influence prices in the silver market.  And there’s been fraudulent efforts to persuade and deviously control the price.”

... and of course the silver/dollar price seesaw ... has a manipulator at the dollar end too...

To modify Edna St Vincent-Millay...

"My seesaw's rigged at both ends,

it may not last the night...

but oh my foes,

and oh my friends..

fiat lux, let there be light."

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