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Get Ready: We’re About To Have Another 2008-Style Crisis

The signals the market is sending look awfully familiar
Wednesday, May 16, 2012, 8:30 AM
,

Well, my hat is off to the global central planners for averting the next stage of the unfolding financial crisis for as long as they have. I guess there’s some solace in having had a nice break between the events of 2008/09 and today, which afforded us all the opportunity to attend to our various preparations and enjoy our lives.

Alas, all good things come to an end, and a crisis rooted in ‘too much debt’ with a nice undercurrent of ‘persistently high and rising energy costs’ was never going to be solved by providing cheap liquidity to the largest and most reckless financial institutions. And it has not.

Forestalled is Not Foregone

The same sorts of signals that we had in 2008 are once again traipsing across my market monitors. Not precisely the same, of course, but with enough similarities that they rhyme loudly. Whereas in 2008 we saw breakdowns in the credit spreads of major financial institutions, this time we are seeing the same dynamic in the sovereign debt of the weaker European nation states.

Greece, as expected and predicted here, is a right proper mess and will have to leave the euro monetary system if it is to have any chance at recovery going forward. Yes, all those endless meetings and rumors and final agreements painfully hammered out by eurocrats over the past year are almost certainly going to be tossed, and additional losses are going to be foisted upon the hapless holders of Greek debt. My prediction is that within a year Greece will be back on the drachma, perhaps by the end of this year (2012).

Greek default spectre turns material

The weekend Greek revolt against the austerity measures imposed on its economy in return for eurozone funding has elevated the prospect of a Greek default on its debts or a chaotic exit from the eurozone.

The collapse in support for the mainstream parties that had reluctantly accepted the austerity program and the vehement opposition to the measures by the radical left party that finished the runner up in the weekend’s elections has made it almost impossible for a coalition to be formed that would persevere with the program.

It is likely new elections will have to be held next month but given the degree to which Greeks have protested against the harsh eurozone prescriptions – and the 20 per cent shrinkage in GDP and 20 per cent-plus unemployment that has accompanied them – it is improbable that Greece will continue with the reforms it agreed in return for the next $300 billion tranche of eurozone funding.

If it does walk away from that commitment there will be chaos in Greece and, to a lesser extent, elsewhere. Greece would inevitably default on its debts and could be forced to quit the eurozone.

(Source)

There really is no choice for Greece but to leave the euro, and the sooner, the better. Even then, there is a lot of hardship coming their way. But in my estimation, that’s better than the imposed austerity that is a guaranteed torture chamber. The institutions that avoided taking losses on their Greek debt on the first pass through, due to their preferred status in the process (the ECB among them), are almost certainly going to eat big losses this time, perhaps a full 100% of them.

Leaving the euro is going to be quite a process, and the ripple effects are going to be large and somewhat unpredictable. I found this description of what will happen within Greece and its banking system to be well on the mark:

The instant before Greece exits it (somehow) introduces a new currency (the New Drachma or ND, say). Assume for simplicity that at the moment of its introduction the exchange rate between the ND and the euro is 1 for 1. This currency then immediately depreciates sharply vis-à-vis the euro (by 40 percent seems a reasonable point estimate). All pre-existing financial instruments and contracts under Greek law are redenominated into ND at the 1 for 1 exchange rate.

What this means is that, as soon as the possibility of a Greek exit becomes known, there will be a bank run in Greece and denial of further funding to any and all entities, private or public, through instruments and contracts under Greek law. Holders of existing euro-denominated contracts under Greek law want to avoid their conversion into ND and the subsequent sharp depreciation of the ND. The Greek banking system would be destroyed even before Greece had left the euro area.

There would remain many contracts and financial instruments involving Greek private and public entities denominated in euro (or other currencies, like the US dollar) that are not under Greek law. […] Widespread defaults seem certain.

Euro area membership is a two-sided commitment. If Greece fails to keep that commitment and exits, the remaining members also and equally fail to keep their commitment. This is not just a morality tale. It has highly practical implications. When Greece can exit, any country can exit.

As soon as Greece has exited, we expect the markets will focus on the country or countries most likely to exit next from the euro area. Any non-captive/financially sophisticated owner of a deposit account in that country (or in those countries) will withdraw his deposits from banks in countries deemed at risk - even a small risk - of exit.

Any non-captive depositor who fears a non-zero risk of the future introduction of a New Escudo, a New Punt, a New Peseta or a New Lira (to name but the most obvious candidates) would withdraw his deposits from the countries involved at the drop of a hat and deposit them in the handful of countries likely to remain in the euro area no matter what - Germany, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Austria and Finland.

The ‘broad periphery’ and ‘soft core’ countries deemed at any risk of exit could of course start issuing deposits under English or New York law in an attempt to stop a deposit run, but even that might not be sufficient. Who wants to have their deposit tied up in litigation for months or years?

(Source)

The Greek banking system will be destroyed immediately upon Greece’s exit from the euro, but the banking system there is already all but dead anyway. Best just to sweep the floor clean and start over.  The idea is easy enough to understand; if your bank is about to go under, it is best to get your money out before that happens.

The only mystery to me is why so many people have left their money in the Greek banks this long. I suppose they were waiting for a clearer signal? Well, it would seem that the signal has now been sent and received:

Greek Depositors Withdrew $898 Million From Banks Monday

Greek depositors withdrew €700 million ($898 million) from the country's banks on Monday, fueling fears of a bank run amid the growing political disarray.

With deposits falling, Greek banks become even more dependent on the European Central Bank to meet their funding needs, exposing the central bank to potentially huge losses if Greece leaves the euro area.

Monday's deposit withdrawal far outpaced Greek banks' steady decline in deposits since the start of the country's debt crisis in 2009, as depositors withdraw cash and transfer funds overseas. In the past two years, deposit outflows have generally averaged between €2 billion and €3 billion a month, though in January they topped €5 billion.

The latest data from the Greece's central bank show that total deposits held by domestic residents and companies stood at €165.36 billion in March.

(Source)

Again, the real mystery to me is who still has 165 billion euros in Greek banks at this stage of the game?  Also a mystery is why Greece has not yet imposed a withdrawal moratorium and capital controls?  It is only a matter of time, perhaps days, before they do.  

Of course, it is the contagion effect that most worries the market, because the same dynamic of utter insolvency leading to the intractable nature of Greece’s dilemma applies to Spain, Portugal, and Italy.

Indeed, the market is already adjusting to this possibility, as evidenced by the spikes in the yields of those country’s bonds:

Contagion Fears Hit Markets

LONDON - Investors battered European stocks, dumped the bonds of Spain and Italy, and bid the euro down against the dollar Monday after the collapse of weekend coalition talks in Greece edged that country closer to an exit from the euro zone.

The sweeping market action dealt a blow to hopes that the damage of a Greek exit, should it occur, could be comfortably contained.

In the market carnage, Greek stocks fell to two-decade lows, and Spanish bond yields leapt to levels not seen since the panic of last November. Shares of a big Spanish lender dropped 8.9% on the Madrid bourse, pulling the benchmark index down 2.7%. The Italian market also fell 2.7%, and the euro slid to $1.2845 late Monday in London, its lowest level in four months.

(Source)

The worry and the carnage are both running deep. And they should. Everything is now interlinked to such a degree that there is no possible way for a run on Greek banks or continued declines in the value of sovereign debt to be anything other than exceptionally destructive.

Everybody owes everybody, and there’s not enough productive economy to mask the insolvency of the system any longer.

We saw this as Spain’s sovereign yields vaulted, Spanish bank shares plunged, a not-so-happy linkage courtesy of the LTRO funding which enabled (and encouraged) Spanish banks to load up on Spanish debt. A virtuous circle morphed into a vicious spiral, each element weakening the other all the way down.

That the US stock market is only down less than 5% from recent highs is a testament to the power of the liquidity that the Fed and US banking system have directed at keeping things elevated. However, this cannot last, at least not without another big quantitative-easing (QE) injection from the Fed. Without such an infusion, I am calling for another 2008-2009-style market rout of at least -30% but possibly as much as -50%.

QE, stat!

The reason we need another QE injection is that the same dynamic of debt destruction is again stalking the markets. As expected, the Fed has been waiting for a clear signal that it is time for more thin-air money, and again they are going to wait too long to prevent more damage from occurring.

This time I am expecting a coordinated central bank action that will involve most or all of the major central banks of the OECD: Japan, UK, US, and Europe.

One day, we will wake up to find some global message about the need for a coordinated response to a major crisis, and each of the central banks will be issuing some massive new amount of thin-air money. Of course the programs will be called something fancy that will require shortening to an acronym and will involve buying some form of debt (sovereign debt, but maybe also bank debt), and we’ll track this via central-bank balance-sheet expansion.

Perhaps we’ll see this line go up a little steeper, or perhaps the same trajectory will be maintained a little longer:

Regardless, more printing is on the way, because the alternative is the utter collapse of the entire Western banking system. And quite probably a few governments, too.

To me, that is an unthinkable outcome, and one that I have every faith will be avoided at any every cost. It is the main reason that I am quite content to hold onto all of my gold at this juncture. Anybody selling physical gold here is either broke (and needs the money) or is just not paying attention.

To drive the point home, consider this picture posted on Zerohedge taken from a German television production purported taken of the Ministry of Finance in Athens. A picture is worth a thousand words:

(Source)

By the time the Ministry of Finance is storing records in garbage bags and shopping carts, perhaps, just maybe, one might become a little concerned about loaning money to the Greek government. One hopes.

If You Think Greece is Bad

Greece, of course, is tiny compared to Spain or Italy. The situation in Spain -- which is big enough to matter -- is truly dire, very large, and getting worse.

Spain has been playing fast and loose with the numbers, and that fact has now been revealed to the world. It’s not a pretty picture.

Spain Underplaying Bank Losses Faces Ireland Fate

May 10, 2012

Spain is underestimating potential losses by its banks, ignoring the cost of souring residential mortgages, as it seeks to avoid an international rescue like the one Ireland needed to shore up its financial system.

The government has asked lenders to increase provisions for bad debt by 54 billion euros ($70 billion) to 166 billion euros. That’s enough to cover losses of about 50 percent on loans to property developers and construction firms, according to the Bank of Spain. There wouldn’t be anything left for defaults on more than 1.4 trillion euros of home loans and corporate debt.

Taking those into account, banks would need to increase provisions by as much as five times what the government says, or 270 billion euros, according to estimates by the Centre for European Policy Studies, a Brussels-based research group. Plugging that hole would increase Spain’s public debt by almost 50 percent or force it to seek a bailout, following in the footsteps of Ireland, Greece and Portugal.

“How can you only talk about one type of real estate lending when more and more loans are going bad everywhere in the economy?” said Patrick Lee, a London-based analyst covering Spanish banks for Royal Bank of Canada. “Ireland managed to turn its situation around after recognizing losses much more aggressively and thus needed a bailout. I don’t see how Spain can do it without outside support.

(Source)

And this is just the losses that Spanish banks face on their real-estate portfolios. They are also now facing losses on all the Spanish sovereign debt that they bought with their LTRO funding as well. Very simply, Spain now needs a massive rescue, and soon.

Meanwhile German citizens are all done with helping their southern neighbors. Merkel has used up all of her political capital on the rescues performed to date, and it is far from clear that any more help is politically doable here. The only way that I can see such help coming is under some terms other than drawing upon the savings of Germany’s citizens. Printing, perhaps, but even that is a dicey political proposition here.

If Spain drops here, then you can just set an egg timer for when Italy will go. And then France. The dominoes will rapidly fall from there.

Why I Am Nervous These Days

In describing JPMorgan’s recent $2 billion (or is it $20 billion…or more?) trading losses and Jamie Dimon’s (the CEO of JPM) awkward explanation of how certain hedging operations went wrong, the author of this next piece asks the obvious question:

Does Jamie Dimon Even Know What Hedging Risk Is?

But wait a minute? If you’re hedging risk then the bets you make will be cancelled against your existing balance sheet. In other words, if your hedges turn out to be worthless then your initial portfolio should have gained, and if your initial portfolio falls, then your hedges will activate, limiting your losses. That is how hedging risk works. If the loss on your hedges is not being cancelled-out by gains in your initial portfolio then by definition you are not hedging risk. You are speculating.

(Source)

We still don’t know the exact dimensions of JPM’s losses here (my expectation is that more bad news will follow soon enough), but we can be sure that the big banks have not learned from the mistakes of the past and are still engaged in risky practices involving derivatives.

Whatever JPM was up to (and I am still not entirely clear on what that was), it was not classic hedging, which serves to minimize losses, but something far more speculative.

The reason this gives me such cause for concern is that it once again exposes a small portion of the derivative monster that will certainly be awakened when the European situation goes into full meltdown over the Greek, then Spanish, the Portuguese, then Italian situations.

While derivatives are, in theory, a zero-sum game, and therefore could, in theory, be forgiven and forgotten in a pinch, the reality is that they’ve been used to pretend that risk did not exist and therefore losses don’t exist.

The ugly truth here is that we are at the tail end of a most unfortunate credit bubble -- four decades of global excess by the OECD countries -- and there are massive losses to account for. Just as the offsetting counterparties involved in the subprime CDO and CDS mortgage crisis did not zero out because the losses they were allegedly papering over were all too real, the same will prove true of the derivative paper allegedly covering sovereign and corporate debts.

Remember, the biggest holder of derivatives is the company that just demonstrated that it doesn’t really understand the concept of hedging.

(Source)

Overall derivatives, especially interest-rate-linked derivatives, have increased by over $100 trillion since the crisis began. As JPM just evidenced, and as hinted at by the interminable hand-wringing over allowing Greece’s paltry $78 billion in credit-default swaps to be triggered, real dangers lurk here.

I wish I could analyze the situation better than the rest of the crowd that either screams catastrophe looms or coos that everything is safe, but I cannot. The situation is too opaque, too convoluted, and too complex to tease apart. I simply don’t know what the true nature of the risk really is -- and the truth is, nobody really does. You might as well ask these analysts to tell you the exact size and shape of the first ten waves that will hit Laguna Beach exactly one year from now beginning at 12:05 p.m.

Instead, what I can offer to you is the idea that instead of reducing (let alone eliminating) risk, all that derivatives have done is mask risk. This means that whatever losses are resident in a system with four decades of debt-fueled malinvestment and overconsumption are still there just waiting to be realized.

It is this certainty that the losses remain, the risk is masked, and the bets have only grown larger that makes me very nervous these days as I contemplate the possible implications and repercussions of a Greek exit from the euro.

To Sum Up Part I

Given this environment of massive, rapidly-accelerating, and obfuscated risks, the prudent among us are undoubtedly wondering, How the heck is this going to play out? And how do I prepare for it?

In Part II: What To Do When the Central Banks Blink, I lay out my forecast for how low asset prices will sink before the central banks once again attempt to ride to the rescue with gargantuan liquidity measures.

But this next time won't work as it did in 2008, in my estimation. I see central banks being near the end of their ability to influence developments at this point. More liquidity will affect different asset classes differently, and for the first time raise real (and valid) concerns about the widescale debasement we are witnessing across the world's major fiat currencies.

Putting your capital into those resources best positioned to appreciate most as the result of money printing and hold or increase their purchasing power in such an environment should be a top priority for every concerned investor.

Click here to access Part II (free executive summary; paid enrollment required for full access).

Related content

32 Comments

phildenn's picture
phildenn
Status: Bronze Member (Offline)
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Posts: 36
Great report, and I agree on

Great report, and I agree on all counts. I just wonder if Bernacke has a better understanding now of the risks, and may act preemptively at the June meeting, with urging of course by the President who can't withstand the collapse.

Phil

Johnny Oxygen's picture
Johnny Oxygen
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Posts: 1441
Don't forget...

Don't forget that after the Euro and the Dollar start their full on descent then the IMF will introduce the SDR's as a safe haven and that will stretch thing out a little longer and makes things worse in the end.

Travlin's picture
Travlin
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Posts: 1322
Thanks Chris

Thanks Chris.  You have my full attention. 

So now we start the next round and it will be very ugly.  I feel very fortunate that I've had two years at this site to learn what we are dealing with, understand what it means, and prepare accordingly.  That is invaluable.  Your continued commentary as this unfolds will be of great help.

Travlin 

Ward555's picture
Ward555
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Posts: 3
US Debt funding

Chris,

Great update and commentary.

I was reading the Contrary Invester's current newsletter on their website:

http://www.contraryinvestor.com/mo.htm

They raise the issue of the Treasury Dept already having ready cash to handle next year's deficit.  I was wondering what your thoughts on the article might be.

It doesn't change the sovereign debt issue or hidden deriviatives blowing everything up, but it gives some insight into why its taking so long for many things to implode.

Time2help's picture
Time2help
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Posts: 557
A wonderful synopsis from a 12-year old Canadian

A 12-year old Canadian perspective

Wow.

sofistek's picture
sofistek
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Posts: 644
Gold as a temporary store

Besides being "broke", another reason for wanting to sell gold is that it was bought to retain wealth until needed for preparations. I guess this shows that there is no safe way to retain wealth, given that gold is significantly below its price about 9 months ago and Chris expects "the price of gold to drop going forward" (in part II - why do people still use Roman numerals?). One could probably point to other investments (or cash) that have done better than gold over the last year or so, but the best investment, in my view, is to spend it on acquiring skills, tools and materials that will benefit you far into the future.

Tony

StephenLark's picture
StephenLark
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Posts: 44
An Australian Classic

Time2Help wrote:

A 12-year old Canadian perspective

Wow.

This is from John Clarke & Brian Dawe, first broadcast on Australian television in 2010:

Clarke and Dawe - European Debt Crisis

phecksel's picture
phecksel
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Posts: 159
Chris, I'm ready to play

Chris,

I'm ready to play Ostrich and wait for this to go away.

redcloud's picture
redcloud
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Posts: 12
How to hold cash

I like the idea of being mostly in cash, but what is the best way to hold it?  I'm afraid to have it in the bank in case things get so bad that the government declares a bank holiday and I'm afraid to have it in my home in case I get robbed.  Safe deposit box?  Those could be blocked by the bank too, or even looted.  How could you prove what you had in your box?  Storage locker?  Buried in a place away from home?

SingleSpeak's picture
SingleSpeak
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Joined: Dec 1 2008
Posts: 430
Short-sighted

sofistek wrote:

Besides being "broke", another reason for wanting to sell gold is that it was bought to retain wealth until needed for preparations. I guess this shows that there is no safe way to retain wealth, given that gold is significantly below its price about 9 months ago and Chris expects "the price of gold to drop going forward" (in part II - why do people still use Roman numerals?). One could probably point to other investments (or cash) that have done better than gold over the last year or so, but the best investment, in my view, is to spend it on acquiring skills, tools and materials that will benefit you far into the future.

Tony

If you want to see if precious metals are a good way to retain wealth, 9 months or a year would not be enough time to tell. Perhaps if you go back 10 years and forward 10 years, you will get a more accurate picture. All markets fluctuate. Over time the gold price has generally followed the money supply. Perhaps this time is different, but I doubt it.

Acquiring skills, tools, and materials may be great investments, and sound advise; but doing that does not necessarily preclude one from protecting her wealth by owning precious metals, especially in a world of serial QE.

SS

cmartenson's picture
cmartenson
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Posts: 3513
Ward555 wrote: I was reading

Ward555 wrote:

I was reading the Contrary Invester's current newsletter on their website:

http://www.contraryinvestor.com/mo.htm

They raise the issue of the Treasury Dept already having ready cash to handle next year's deficit.  I was wondering what your thoughts on the article might be. 

Ah, not quite....the Treasury Department always lives somewhat hand-to-mouth and rarely has any excess cash on hand let alone a full year's worth of deficit.

What Mr. Pretti was pointing out was that there may be a natural set of buyers for next year's $1.4 trillion federal deficit spree and those would be the current holders of bank accounts on which the $250k FDIC limit might be lowered back to $100k next year exposing their holdings to potential losses.

Magically, the numbers sort of line up.

Of course, those individuals may decide to do something else with that money.... 

Kismet22's picture
Kismet22
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Posts: 3
Please enlightenment about Gold?

Please explain to me why gold or any other metal will help you eat after this collapse. Really confused, or do you not fully understand the situation we are facing. Who is going to buy your gold and at what price. Are you going to eat it??

Any reply would be appreciated from the buy precious metals advocates.

Thanking you in advance!

Ready's picture
Ready
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Posts: 914
Kismet22 wrote:  Are you

Kismet22 wrote:

 Are you going to eat it??

Seems to me you have already made up your mind...

Kismet22's picture
Kismet22
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Posts: 3
Gold lovers, please enlightenment me!

I really do not understand the logic of owning gold or silver.

Are they going to eat it, when things get bad?? Or do you just say it will be bad but still think things will go on as always! NOT going to happen that way, the shift will happen, and your gold will be worthless. Let me know who the buyers of your percious metals will be?

Thank you to anyone who responds to my question.

Ready's picture
Ready
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Posts: 914
Kismet,

Not sure what you are hoping to get out of logging on and shouting people down that have a different mindset than you.

This is not the kind of site where that is the normal way to communicate. They do definately exist if a virtual war of word is what you seek.

Folks that come on asking real questions get real answers. You do not appear to be looking for answers, rather a fight.

Forgive me if I am reading you wrong. Perhaps turning off boldface and asking a question without making a judgement is the best next step.

Kismet22's picture
Kismet22
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Posts: 3
Sorry

Ready,

Thanks for the reply.

I most certainly was not trying to shout, be judgemental or fight, I can see how my post was misunderstood. My question is, why do people hold gold? Who will be buying it when we have another crisis worse than 2008? Thats all I was asking.

Mirv's picture
Mirv
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Posts: 105
"buying (gold) when we have another crisis worse than 200"

Kismet:  regarding your main point: "Who will be buying it when we have another crisis worse than 2008?"
We do NOT buy or sell gold "when we have another crisis"   We buy gold before the crisis and then sell after the crisis.  During the crisis, cash (federal  reserve notes)  are likely most valuable, (more useful than gold),  since such crises usually are precipitated, can be identified as such, and promulgated by the elite as a banking holiday.  Maybe this misunderstanding is causing a difference of opinion  here. 

This is an unambiguous grammatical conclusion because you use the term "crisis worse than 2008" as an event that has passed (but we are dealing with the aftermath (pun intended) of that "crash" via buying or selling gold).  Similarly, when "the big one"  hits, we will use cash during the event, and then later discuss gold sales on this blog using the past tense when referring to "the big crisis worse than 2008," as such "crisis" will then be in our rearview mirror  ..............

 

robie robinson's picture
robie robinson
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Aug 25 2009
Posts: 659
Bluestem Farms

will take PMs now and then for grains,vegetables,meat and dairy. "Then" we won't take fiat dollars and don't bother bringing your American Express.

Seriously, there always has been and will always be(sounds absolutist) someone interested in things precious. A wise one once said that "the poor you have with you always", the "rich"  although varying in number, will also always exist.

Robie

rhare's picture
rhare
Status: Diamond Member (Offline)
Joined: Mar 30 2009
Posts: 1271
PMs - Currency not asset

Kismet22 wrote:

I most certainly was not trying to shout, be judgemental or fight, I can see how my post was misunderstood. My question is, why do people hold gold? Who will be buying it when we have another crisis worse than 2008? Thats all I was asking.

First question, have you watched the Crash Course?  Particularly chapter 6, What Is Money?

The world is not going to suddenly come to an end (well it could, but financial and money crisis are not it).  So people will still want to trade and barter quickly becomes too cumbersome.  The world will want to use something as currency, and after a monetary crisis there is little to no trust, hence PMs become a well known and historical choice.  Don't think of PMs like assets, think of them as currency and it will start to make more sense.

If you were living in Argentina, Mexico, or Zimbabwe during their currency crisis and you had wealth, how did you protect it?  You certainly bought things you needed but after that you probably transferred your wealth to dollars or another currency that was not in trouble.  So what do you do when all the worlds currencies are fiat and in trouble?  You pick the money that can't be printed.

JAG's picture
JAG
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Posts: 2490
Kismet22 wrote: ....NOT

Kismet22 wrote:

....NOT going to happen that way, the shift will happen, and your gold will be worthless. 

Kismet,

What shift do you imagine happening, if you care to elaborate?

I'm the "goldbug antichrist" around here and even I can't imagine a situation where gold will be worthless, at least in a long-term context.

Though I certainly can't speak for them, my impression is that most people on this site view gold as a vehicle for tranversing an unknown future with their purchasing power intact. I have my doubts as to whether this will be successful strategy, primarily because people who buy in fear also sell in fear, but for some here that won't be an issue.

Personally, I bought gold out of fear.

I realized my mistake and sold my gold for a profit before I could compound my mistake with an emotion-driven exit "strategy". This whole process gave me a perspective that most people here, having not sold yet, don't have. 

I frequently share that perspective to the dismay, and hopefully to the long-term benefit, of many in this community.

Best....Jeff

Ready's picture
Ready
Status: Platinum Member (Offline)
Joined: Dec 30 2008
Posts: 914
Gold and Silver

Have different puposes for different people. Can you eat it? Clearly not. Can you trade it for things, including food? Absolutely.

Do a little thought expirement based on real world events happening today. Why is there a run on the banks happening in Greece and Spain right now? It's because the folks who have money in those banks, currently denominated in Euros, are concerned the old currency is coming back (i.e. Drachma) and that there will be a reset / conversion where a large portion of thier purchasing power gets wiped out overnight. If they have physical Euros in their possesion, this somewhat insulates them from this.

Also, there are centruries of history as to why gold and silver are money.

Also, there is a feeling that they cannot be maniupulated in the same way as fiat money via printing.

Take a look

So, there are many reasons. But, if your concern is still about being able to eat, I believe most would advise you to take care of that (and your other needs like shelter, water, etc) FIRST, and with any remaining savings, consider PMs. Everyone has a different financial situation. But I can tell you that folks like Robbie and myself exist, where we would be happy to trade you things you need for PMs in the event that the USD got trashed or some other economic event that made cash less available or applicable.

There's lots to learn and internalize about PMs. There are countless threads on the subject, with every possibile perspective, including anti-gold. You should take a look and understand the arguments and decide for yourself.

rhare's picture
rhare
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Posts: 1271
Bling!

Ready wrote:

Can you eat it? Clearly not.

Well, you actually can - just depends on if you want a bit of bling in your poop!  Pass the Goldsschlager!

RJE's picture
RJE
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Posts: 1369
This is a powerful letter to the Fed, and has effected...

...further actions by the Fed. When do they print? I just can't believe unless begged for by all party's that the Fed will print.

BOB

Dear Chairman Bernanke,

It is our understanding that the Board Members of the Federal Reserve will meet later this week to consider additional monetary stimulus proposals. We write to express our reservations about any such measures. Respectfully, we submit that the board should resist further extraordinary intervention in the U.S. economy, particularly without a clear articulation of the goals of such a policy, direction for success, ample data proving a case for economic action and quantifiable benefits to the American people.

It is not clear that the recent round of quantitative easing undertaken by the Federal Reserve has facilitated economic growth or reduced the unemployment rate. To the contrary, there has been significant concern expressed by Federal Reserve Board Members, academics, business leaders, Members of Congress and the public. Although the goal of quantitative easing was, in part, to stabilize the price level against deflationary fears, the Federal Reserve’s actions have likely led to more fluctuations and uncertainty in our already weak economy.

We have serious concerns that further intervention by the Federal Reserve could exacerbate current problems or further harm the U.S. economy. Such steps may erode the already weakened U.S. dollar or promote more borrowing by overleveraged consumers. To date, we have seen no evidence that further monetary stimulus will create jobs or provide a sustainable path towards economic recovery.

Ultimately, the American economy is driven by the confidence of consumers and investors and the innovations of its workers. The American people have reason to be skeptical of the Federal Reserve vastly increasing its role in the economy if measurable outcomes cannot be demonstrated.

We respectfully request that a copy of this letter be shared with each Member of the Board.

Sincerely,

Sen. Mitch McConnell, Rep. John Boehner, Sen. Jon Kyl, Rep. Eric Cantor

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Quick ?

I just got a message from one of my childrens 21 YO  friend who is serving in Kuwait   .. she has $23,ooo .  in the bank and does not know what to do with it or how   while she is over there .      Got any suggestions that I could pass to her ?

FM 

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European funding markets frozen: ANZ chief

European funding markets frozen: ANZ chief

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-18/banks-funding-has-frozen-says-anz-...

ANZ Bank chief executive Mike Smith says European wholesale funding markets for banks have effectively frozen as financial markets panic amid ongoing instability in the eurozone.

Global share markets have not posted a single day of gains all week, and the Australian share market has closed at its lowest level since November last year, as Greece lurches towards a new round of elections and investors fret about a looming banking crisis in Spain.

Speaking in Melbourne, Mr Smith said funding markets in Europe were "essentially closed" as investors headed for the exits, although markets in Asia and the United States remained open.

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Full Moon, For the person in

Full Moon,

For the person in question, it sounds like her money is in a bank in the US I assume?  If it was in Kuwait I'm guessing it wouldn't be as much of a problem.  I had to put some thought into this myself before moving abroad, and I had a family member I trust added to our account just in case so they could take money out if necessary.  If she has a joint account with someone still home then that makes the "how" easy, but if not then she still might have options.  The potential catch is that just about any such options involves having someone she can trust completely AND who has a safe place to keep any cash (not always easy to find both qualifications... I have a couple people I trust but their living arrangements or location makes keeping valuables with them a risk).  But if there is such a person, then it is possible to arrange a wire transfer to the trusted person of any money she wishes to withdraw, provided she has access to a fax machine and a phone to call her bank.  A couple years ago I had to do something similar for a vehicle purchase but was working far away from my nearest branch; it took two days for the fund transfer to finalize in my case, but I think one day is about the norm. 

As to the "what to do with it", she sounds like she might be a little panicked so I'd be reluctant to advise her to spend or invest any of it in anything, and she might be better off keeping it all as cash in the US.  I'm guessing she's serving in the military, so wherever she's at during her deployment the money isn't likely to help to her where she's at.  If it were me I'd save half of it as cash (2/3 of it outside the bank with a trusted person) and put the other half in gold and silver bullion (given the attractive price opportunity that currently exists), but if she's operating from a point of fear or panic then that would be a bad idea.  Even if I disagree with JAG on the likely future of gold/silver prices, I think he's dead on about not buying it, or anything, in a mindset of fear.  While keeping it all as cash may not be the optimum solution as far as maintaining her purchasing power in the long run, the flexibility it offers is hard to beat.  It's a lot easier to move from cash to stuff in a bad inflationary environment than it is to sell stuff for cash during a period of deflation.  If she has any credit card or auto loans or high interest rate loans, I think paying loans off would be a really good place to use that money.  Otherwise given her situation cash is hard to beat, as long as not all of it is in the bank and not all of it is in one place.

- Nick

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Sovereignty vs Global (Financial and Govt) Interests

But, the G8 leaders ended their Camp David summit with a pledge to keep Greece in the Eurozone.

. . . . . as though the people of Greece have a say in regards to their sovereignty.

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The article

I think i see a pattern here. Greece, followed by the rest will be bank runs.most of that money will be deposited with the stronger Euro Countries probably Germany and the Nordic Countries. so from Germanys perspective this is welcome investment. while all those countries go bust. Its a win for Germany and her concubines.

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then there's also the other side of the coin.

Perhaps at this point, that we've been at before, where what seems inevetable could really be inevitable,
.... maybe we'd allow our selveves to consider the rediculous.   What if the creditors bailed out the system they've been milking dry and so can no longer stand on its own?      Have you recently studied how that might work?

Adopt natural system principles to keep economies profitable at their limits

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So much for our near and mid term export model...

...this don't sound good.

Stimulas, soon? This Deflation we are about to witness could be serious stuff. Could it be worse than the lows of 2009 (666)? Why not? 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/chinese-buyers-defaulting-commodity-shipments-prices-plunge

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Kismet, respectfully, your

Kismet, respectfully, your answer is supplied by history. Just take a look at the Wiemar Republic and your questions should be found there. BOB 

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RJE
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/g

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonchang/2012/05/20/hey-krugman-ask-china-if-stimulus-is-a-good-idea/

Mr. Chang has China at ZERO to NEGATIVE growth for April!!! That can't be good. That's probably a little harder landing than China expected but not Chanos. He nailed it!

China is defaulting on shipments of coal and other commodities, in route, because they have so much in storage that they are using parking lots to store the over flow. I would ask then, why is China buying any commodities at these prices? Isn't the point of investing to buy low and sell high?

The CRB sure indicates what the market thinks of China's hard landing theory.

So, Europe, Japan, China, UK, and the ECRI has the United States in Recession NOW, where is growth going to come from?

I certainly agree that Chris is right to predict a 2009 low in the S&P with all the serious headwinds out there. Growth?

JPM? Other shoes to drop?

I also agree with Gregor that Oil and its marginal cost is $90 bucks, however, a serious contraction is long over due because nothing the Fed or Litro printing in Europe, and six hundred Billion, maybe a Trillion spent by China has not done a darn thing. Perhaps Trillions now by the Fed will do the trick, and Trillions in Europe, and maybe Trillions elsewhere! When does it stop? Does all fiat money have to be destroyed first so we can all suffer together? Do the central planners have a clue? I don't think so. UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES?

Respectfully Given

BOB

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